asked the Minister of Aviation if he is aware that the recent inclusive tour arrangements by British European Airways have the effect of making it cheaper for British residents to visit the Continent than for continentals to visit Great Britain; and if, in the interests of British tourism, he will try to secure some measure of reciprocity.

I welcome the recent arrangements agreed by European airlines for cheaper inclusive tours on scheduled services which will extend the markets to a wider range of tourists. Because the traffic from this country is at present substantially larger than in the reverse direction, the airlines have so far found it possible to introduce the new arrangements only from this country. I hope, in the interests of increasing tourism to Britain, that they will soon find it commercially feasible to introduce reciprocal arrangements.

Is it not the case that, if drive, energy and some pressure were applied, the airlines would find such an arrangement commercially possible? This traffic was generated in Britain through the ingenuity largely of private fliers. Should not some pressure be exerted so that this country gets the benefit of trade from the Continent?

I hope that this will happen. The traffic flows very much outward rather than inward, but I hope that enterprise will be shown.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the average cost per mile of seats on British domestic air routes and European air routes.

I assume the hon. Member is asking about the cost of travel to the passenger. Fares vary by route, by time of day and by season and an average fare can be misleading. However, in the financial year ended 31st March, 1964, British European Airway's average revenue per passenger mile was 5·3 pence per mile on domestic routes and 6·5 pence per mile on international routes.

Since a very heavy duty has to be paid upon spirit used for internal flights, which must add a very considerable cost to operations, how is it that there is much higher yield from domestic fares? Is it because of the restrictive arrangements of the I.A.T.A.?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is mistaken. There is not a much higher yield. The cost is higher on international routes although, in the case of the cost to the operator, the reverse is true.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will publish details of the representations he has received from the British aircraft industry on the subject of the Concord project.

No, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the White Paper on the Economic Situation, issued by the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs in October and containing fierce reflections on the Concord project, together with the more recent announcement of certain American equipment being purchased for the project, have given the impression—wrongly, I hope—that the Government are not really keen on this project? Would not the publication of the reasons—or at least some of them—why they decided to go on with it give far greater confidence?

The hon. Gentleman is bringing in some very extraneous considerations. We are going ahead with the project and I hope and believe that it will be a success.

asked the Minister of Aviaton whether he will publish details of the representations he has received from the French Government on the subject of the Concord project.

No, Sir. The exchanges were confidential.

The right hon. Gentleman may think that some of the considerations are extraneous to this problem, but there is a feeling that the Government are half-hearted about the project. Would not the publication of the reasons why the right hon. Gentleman himself decided to go ahead with it benefit the future chances of Concord?

I have the impression that the hon. Member wishes to debate a decision that we made in January and not to ask for information about what took place.

asked the Minister of Aviation what is now the target date for the Concord being in airline service.

asked the Minister of Aviation what are the dates planned with the French Government for the first flight of the prototype and for the completion of the first production Concord; how many aircraft will be ordered by the British Overseas Airways Corporation; and what information he has as to when a firm order will be placed.

The date of flight of the first prototype Concord aircraft is now foreseen as early 1968. We are discussing the development programme and time-scale thereafter with our French partners. Eight aircraft have been reserved for British Overseas Airways Corporation but it is too early for firm orders to be placed.

Could the Minister answer the Question, which I think asked when he estimates the Concord will be in airline service? That is the question which I want answered. Secondly, can he say whether everything is being prepared to swing straight into production on this as soon as possible? Thirdly, is the electronics equipment being developed so that it will meet the time when production should begin?

As I indicated in my Answer, we are discussing with the French the date when it will come into airline service. What we are anxious to do—and I am sure that we carry the hon. Member and the House with us in this—is to get the market. Therefore, an important factor is how close America is behind us. But compatibly with getting the market we do not want to get into a position in which we act without due consideration. But, as I said on 20th January, we are determined not to spend the money and lose the market.

Would the Minister confirm or deny the date quoted fairly widely in recent weeks in the aviation Press that we would he in production of the Concord in 1972?

Order. The Minister cannot be asked to confirm things in the Press unless he is responsible for them. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can ask whether it is a fact, or something of the kind.

Is it a fact and also would the Minister confirm that in order to be in production in 1972 the first metal for production has to be cut in 1968?

We are anxious to be in production at a time which will give us a substantial lead over any American SST. I prefer not to go beyond that at the moment, because this is a matter which we are discussing with our French partners.

By how many months or years has the mess and muddle which the right hon. Gentleman and the Government made put back the programme?

I can tell the hon. Gentleman precisely. We have not put it back at all. The programme went ahead during the period of review, and it made remarkably good technical progress during these months.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is any prospect of an American competitor to the Concord?

I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate that if I cannot answer for the British Press, I cannot answer for the American Government either, but I think that they are in the process of making a decision which may well be announced within the next month.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will place a contract with Short Brothers and Harland for a development study of a jet version of the Belfast freighter aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will place a contract with Short Brothers and Harland for a development study of a jet version of the Belfast freighter aircraft to fulfil a dual strategic and tactical rôle.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will initiate a development study, to he conducted by Short Brothers and Harland, into a jet version of the Belfast air freighter.

At present, there is no requirement for an aircraft of this kind. In these circumstances we would not be justified in placing a development study contract with the company.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that 10 strategic Belfasts are sufficient to meet the strategic transporting needs, particularly in view of developments in the Far East and our commitments there? Is he aware of the long time taken to plan and develop a new aircraft? Will he, therefore, think again about this project and couple the large configuration of the Belfast and its advantages with a British engine rather than order an American aircraft?

I am very well aware of the long time required to develop a new aircraft, but the question of military needs is for the chiefs of staff of the Royal Air Force.

Am I to assume from the hon. Gentleman's Answer that the current aviation policy to buy American is long-term rather than short-term? Otherwise, why does he refuse to consider further a worth-while project such as a jet version of the Belfast?

If a requirement of the type referred to is discovered, the Belfast will be considered.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will place a further research contract with Short Brothers and Harland for the development of a new multi-jet vertical take-off and landing aircraft as a successor to the SC1.

No, Sir. We have no requirement which could justify placing such a contract at present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the advantages of a multi-jet vertical take-off aircraft, particularly in view of the development in the new Rolls-Royce jet lift engines which have a power-weight ratio of about 25 to 1? Would it not be better if such an aircraft could be developed in this country rather than by Dornier in Germany along with American participation?

I am studying this matter. We are most anxious to help Short Bros. and Harland. I know how pertinacious the hon. Gentleman is in putting forward that concern's claims. I will watch this matter. But I cannot, and should not, place contracts for things for which there is no requirement in view.

asked the Minister of Aviation what inquiries have been made by the Government of South Africa regarding the purchase of Bloodhound missiles.

It is not the practice to disclose details of such enquiries.

Is it not a fact that a letter of intent to order the Bloodhound was sent and a deposit paid? Is it not equally the fact that this is a wholly defensive weapon? Was it not the Government who caused the cancellation of this £20 million order through their rather strange political ideas about South Africa?

No contract was placed Our "strange political ideas", as explained by the Prime Minister, were the result of a desire to come into line with a United Nations resolution which made it essential for us to take the action that we did.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the people involved that this has cost them £150 million worth of orders?

I would prefer that the hon. Gentleman gave his own explanations.

asked the Minister of Aviation why, subsequent to the ending of the 7s. 6d. airport service charge, a 7s. 6d. United Kingdom departure charge is now levied; by what authority this charge is made; and whether he will make a statement.

The departure charge was introduced by the international airlines to meet the costs of the Government's navigation service charge which came into force on 1st November. The departure charge was agreed in the International Air Transport Association as a temporary measure and was approved by all authorities concerned, except the United States of America. It will be withdrawn on 1st April when higher fares will be introduced on certain routes.

asked the Minister of Aviation, in view of the fact that aircraft engine exports dropped from £62,706,680 in 1963 to £44,096,123 in 1964, what estimate he has made of the effect on exports of his policy with regard to the Concord and TSR projects; how many workers he expects to be made redundant; what are his plans to meet this problem; and if he will make a statement.

As I said in my statement of 20th January, the Concord goes ahead. All being well, this project may do a substantial amount of export business. As regards the TSR2, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 2nd February, no decision will be taken until a new more detailed assessment has been completed. The effect on the aircraft industry, including its exports, forms part of this assessment.

If we hesitate or refuse to buy our own products, is it not unreasonable to expect foreigners to buy them? If we prefer foreign manufactures to our own, how can we expect foreigners to choose British? Is not this doing us a lot of harm? Does the right hon. Gentleman see any hope in future of these exports improving?

These are general considerations. As I say, the Concord goes ahead, and we are studying the position about the TSR2.

Cannot the Minister give any hope to the workers in the industry—this is not a party matter; it is a very serious matter for the men whose jobs are at stake—that the future holds better prospects for them?

I hope that the future holds very good prospects for the industry. As I have indicated when I could answer at greater length, I am not prepared to spend public money without a good return.

asked the Minister of Aviation what proposals he has for maintaining employment at the present level in the Belfast aircraft factory after 1970.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a further statement about the employment position at Short Brothers and Harland, Belfast, in view of recent Government decisions about procurement of aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many are now employed at Short Brothers and Harland, Belfast; and what he estimates will be the position in 1970 following recent decisions by Her Majesty's Government regarding Service aircraft requirements.

asked the Minister of Aviation what estimate he has made of the level of employment at Short Brothers and Harland, Belfast, if no new orders are placed; and when he anticipates placing fresh orders with the company.

The total number employed by Short Brothers and Harland, in Northern Ireland at the end of January, 1965, was 7,630. We are urgently considering whether any extra aircraft work can be fed into the company in the immediate future. I would prefer not to comment on the position in or beyond 1970 until the industrial consultants, to be appointed by the First Secretary of State, have reported on the use of Short's facilities in engineering fields.

In view of the fact that employment in Short's after 1970 is likely to depend to a considerable extent on the consultants' report, can the hon. Gentleman tell us who the consultants will be, or, alternatively, have the invitations been sent out and, if not, why not?

We cannot yet announce who the consultants will be, but we are certainly considering what can be done in the short term to keep this firm employed.

Would the hon. Gentleman speed the appointment of the consultants and ask them to report as soon as possible, because until something is done about the long-term future the present anxiety about employment will remain?

I am well aware of the anxiety about employment, and I tried to put some of those fears at rest when I was in Belfast three weeks ago.

I realise that it will be some time before the consultants come up with anything new or decisive, but does the hon. Gentleman realise that the anxiety is to keep the present level of employment and that this can be done only by the provision of further aircraft work? Can the hon. Gentleman say anything about the prospects over the Phantom or how soon that might come along?

I would rather not comment on a particular proposal, but I can give the assurance that we are considering what aircraft work can be fed in in the short term.

asked the Minister of Aviation what estimate he has made of the effect the cancellation of the HS681 and P1154 will have on the future of the Trident and the HS125 due to increased overheads.

I know of no intention on the part of Hawker Siddeley Aviation to adjust the overheads applicable to the Trident and HS125 following abandonment of the HS681 and P1154 projects.

If the overheads should rise on these two aircraft—the Trident and the HS125—will they be taken into account when assessing compensation?

Yes. It must be borne in mind that Hawker Siddeley is also to be given orders for the P1127 and the Comet marine reconnaissance aircraft. This, to a large extent, from the production point of view, constitutes a counterbalancing factor.

asked the Minister of Aviation what stage has been reached in regard to the projects in the aircraft industry being jointly carried out with Continental partners.

As there are a number of projects and countries involved, any informative Answer is necessarily lengthy. Therefore, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the projects which are now under consideration are spread widely over the European countries as a whole, and not just confined to one or two countries? Secondly, is he satisfied that any projects which he now has under consideration will prevent a very considerable amount of unemployment which the cancellation of British aircraft has threatened?

There are 12 projects touching six European countries—France, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark and Turkey. Should these projects seem worth while, as many of them do, we will pursue them extremely vigorously. It is possible to exaggerate substantially the amount of unemployment likely to be caused by any cancellations that we have so far announced.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he expects to make a statement about an agreement on the jet strike trainer?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence.

asked the Minister of Aviation what information he has on the relative size of the electronic computing capacity of the British and United States aircraft industries and on the lead in development time for aircraft which is now given by a lead in computing capacity in this field.

Figures are not available, and I do not believe that a comparison of this kind, even if it could be made, would mean very much. The British aircraft industry is, however, fully aware of the importance and value of the use of computers and, with Government encouragement, is expanding its computing capacity.

In view of the importance of the relationship between computer capacity and lead time, does not the hon. Gentleman consider that we need more information of this kind?

We will certainly consider that.

Are American computers regarded as cheaper or better than ours? On what grounds are we going to buy American?

We are satisfied that many very good computers are being made here in the United Kingdom, and we will encourage the British aircraft industry to invest in these.

asked the Minister of Aviation what action he will take to ensure that in future there is no possibility of overcharging by firms contracting with his department for the supply or development of ballistic missiles.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he proposes to take within his department to ensure that there can be no unreasonable profit in future in contracts for the supply of ballistic missiles.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the progress he has achieved in ensuring that unduly high profits are not made in future contracts for the development and supply of missiles.

The only sure way of preventing the possibility of excessive profits on production contracts would be to price them all on actual costs. This would reduce the incentive to efficient production and might well lead to an overall increase in the prices paid. I am sure that it is right to continue to seek fixed prices at an early stage, provided my Department has adequate costing information. The Government accept the recommendation in Sir John Lang's second Report that the Department should have equality of information with its contractors up to the time prices are fixed.

Sir John Lang's Report has made recommendations for improving organisation and procedure in order to ensure better assessment of prices. As I informed the House on 9th February, a number of these recommendations are in line with views already formed in my Department, and action on them is in hand. The others are being studied.

So far as development contracts are concerned, it is normally impracticable to price them other than on actual costs. There is accordingly little danger of overcharging.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that Sir John Lang's Report and the statement that he has just made make nonsense of the criticisms which were levelled at my right hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) when he was Minister of Aviation, regarding the unfortunate Ferranti affair—and we are all agreed about that—which arose largely because it is not possible to assess the cost of new projects in which there is no previous standard of costing, and which take in an entirely new range of scientific knowledge?

I should not like to say that any answer of mine could make nonsense of all the criticisms levelled at the right hon. Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery), but I hope—though no one can feel certain in this respect—that we might avoid this unfortunate situation in the future.

Can my right hon. Friend spell out in some detail what improvements have been made in this field within his Department since the Ferranti affair? Can he spell out precisely what stage negotiations have reached with Ferranti in connection with the immense profiteering in which the firm engaged?

On the first part of the question, we are endeavouring to strengthen the whole of the staff concerned with price fixing. A director of administration is being appointed, one of whose tasks will be to improve the administration of the contracts division as a whole, and in particular to ensure that there is the fullest collaboration between contracts, technical costing, and accountant staff.

On the second part of the question, I hope that it may be possible to bring this negotiation to a conclusion in the fairly near future. It is not an easy negotiation.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that as the Lang Committee has been quite unable to recommend any way of ensuring that in future profits are not excessive, this really exonerates both his Department and my right hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. J. Amery) from any blame in the past, and makes a nonsense of all the Labour Party criticisms of the previous Administration at the time of the General Election?

I have already dealt with that question. The Lang Committee has not been able to guarantee a way in which excessive profits are not made, but I hope very much that under the new Administration we will have no repetition of the Ferranti position.

Where it is not possible to arrive at a fixed price in the contract in the early stages, will the right hon. Gentleman consider putting independent cost accountants acting on behalf of his Ministry into the firm?

Yes, Sir. I will consider that.

Did my right hon. Friend read the article in The Times on Monday in which it was stated that one of these missiles used by the Navy costs as much as £8,250? This is the cost of three to four houses. Does not my right hon. Friend think that he can do something to reduce this cost?

I think that my hon. Friend will appreciate that that is a different and wider question.

In view of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher), may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will invite his right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General to read again his speeches during the debate on the Ferranti affair, and perhaps make some appropriate apology for some of the things that he said about my right hon. Friend?

I do not understand this. It cannot be the Minister's responsibility to perform these antics.

asked the Minister of Aviation what British radar and control systems are to be installed in the Phantom and C130 aircraft to be purchased from the United States of America.

I cannot at present add to the Answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker) on 10th March in reply to a similar Question.

Is it not a fact that firms such as Cossor and Marconi do not even know yet what components or systems to tender for? Has he had any encouragement whatever from the Americans in this regard, and, if so, can we be told exactly what was said? Lastly, will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, unless orders are found, there is a real danger that the design teams in this vital industry will be dispersed in the same way as the design teams in the aircraft industry?

I do not accept that the hon. Gentleman seriously expects me to tell him what was said in the course of exchanges with the American Government on the matter, apart from the desirability of getting on with Questions, but I am very anxious, subject to price and delivery date, to see as much British electronic equipment as possible included in these aircraft.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is possible for British firms to hope for any of this business, or was there a package deal done to include all American electronic equipment, including flight simulators, when the original agreement was signed?

Certainly not. It was a question of cost and delivery dates. Firms may hope, and I hope that the way in which they are able to contract will turn their hopes into reality.

Is it not a fact that the previous Government seriously neglected the development of aircraft electronic equipment in this country, and is it not a fact that our exports of aircraft are prejudiced as a result of that sorry record?

Yes, Sir.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the evidence for his confirmation of his hon. Friend's Question?

I have given a good deal of evidence on these matters, and I shall be happy to do it in subsequent debates which no doubt we shall have.

How can the right hon. Gentleman accuse the industry of that when it has not had the chance to tender for equipment in these American aircraft?

The hon. Gentleman has misunderstood me. I was not accusing the industry, but agreeing with my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Mr. Snow) in accusing the previous Government.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many Spey engines are to be ordered from Rolls Royce for the Phantom; and what modifications to the existing engine will be necessary.

It is not the practice to disclose the size of military orders. The engine is being developed for supersonic operation and will also incorporate re-heat.

Is it not a fact that there are major design problems with this engine? Can the Minister tell the House when this aircraft will come into squadron service, and can he deny that the decision to cancel the P1154 was taken before he had any clear idea at all when the Phantom would be ready?

I hope that there are no major design difficulties. I am surprised that the hon. Member seems to be advocating that we should not include British equipment in these aircraft. That is not my view. The decision about the P1154 has nothing to do with the Question on the Order Paper.

Is the Minister sure that by switching the Spey engine to the Phantom there will not be any difficulty regarding the performance or safety of the aircraft? This often happens.

I do not think that this is so. I am extremely anxious—apparently more so than is the hon. Member—to see the British Spey engine incorporated in the Phantom aircraft.

Can the Minister say when the Phantom aircraft will be available?

Not without notice. This Question relates purely to the number and modifications of the engine.

asked the Minister of Aviation what proposals he has to provide facilities for private and commercial aircraft to operate in North Devon.

Provision of aerodromes to serve local needs is primarily a matter for local interests; the Ministry of Aviation will gladly advise on all technical aspects. Local authorities have already been encouraged to look into the possibility of providing small landing strips for private and business fliers and have been sent particulars of what such strips require.

Will the hon. Member bear in mind the real need for commercial aircraft facilities in North Devon—I do not think there are any at the moment—as this is a development area, with new factories springing up? Perhaps he will use his influence to encourage these facilities in North Devon.

We will bear that point in mind. If the authorities concerned will send us their proposals we will give them all the help that we can.

Is the Minister aware that I regret that I was not here when my Question No. 9 was reached, because of a rather high-flying lunch? Does he really think that it helps private flying to cut the tax concession which private flyers have—

Order. This is an old, unpleasant device, which I hope will not be pursued by anybody.

asked the Minister of Aviation what assistance has been given by his Department to the British Aircraft Corporation in its negotiations with Middle East Airlines for the supply of VC10 aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he is taking to assist the export sales of civil aircraft.

I have recently discussed export promotion with the Export Council of the Society of British Aerospace Companies and, I am glad to say, our proposals for assisting exports were generally welcomed. Financial assistance is being given to projects which have a promising export potential. We are particularly in close touch with companies about export prospects including the VC10 for the Middle East Airlines. In this connection we have agreed to consider proposals the British Aircraft Corporation may care to submit for our assistance in disposing of aircraft which M.E.A. may have surplus if they purchase the VC10.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that his Answer is good only as far as it goes? Is he further aware that a Middle East Airlines representative in London last month stated that the contract was in grave doubt because of the controversy over British military types and the possibility of not getting spares for this aircraft in years to come? Will he do what he can to remedy the situation and to assure these airlines that British spares will be available and that the Government intend to maintain the British aircraft industry?

I am not only prepared to give that assurance here; I gave it directly to Sheikh Najeeb when I saw him here a few weeks ago. We are satisfied that the British aircraft industry will be in a position to provide these spares in years to come.

Do the Government propose to give continuing support?

Yes. We are satisfied that there is a great future for the export of civil aircraft from the United Kingdom, and we want to give this industry full support in its export drive.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the most encouraging steps that could be taken would be for B.O.A.C. to take up some of the suspended VC10 orders, thus showing what a splendid aircraft it is proving to be?

As the House should know, B.O.A.C. is delighted by the VC10's performance. I hope that this will be an example to all airlines which are now considering buying the VC10.

Although we are anxious to help these airlines and to supply them with aircraft, is my hon. Friend satisfied that Middle East Airlines are in a financial state which enables them to meet the payments, which formerly they could not?

I do not believe that there is any financial or technical obstacle to the supply of VC10's to this airline.

Would it not help the prospects of exporting British aircraft if the Government said firmly that they would go ahead with the TSR2?

That is a consideration that will be borne in mind when the decision has to be made.

asked the Minister of Aviation how much has been expended on research and development in respect of the 1154 and 681 types of aircraft.

The best estimates that can be made at present are that total expenditures on the P1154 and HS681 are likely to be of the order of £25 million and £4 million, respectively. Development contracts for both aircraft are now in process of running down.

In view of that very unsatisfactory Answer, will the right hon. Gentleman consider, even at this late stage—and in view of the lead that the P1154 type of aircraft has in the world —keeping the nucleus of the design team on this project so that if our economy improves we can go ahead and catch up again, or even maintain the lead which we have today?

I explained in the debate we had a few weeks ago why we do not think it right to go ahead on this project. The fact that limited sums have been spent is no reason for spending additional sums on something which we do not think is well founded.

Can the Minister tell the House the exact cost of the 100 Kestrels with which it is intended to replace the P1154, and whether a firm order has now been placed for the Kestrels with the Hawker Siddeley group?

No, Sir. It is not the practice to disclose exact costs. We believe that it will be a very worth-while purchase, and we are proceeding to a position in which the firm can go ahead. The firm is in no way held up by lack of a firm order.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the former Administration had not dithered about the P1154 at the time, but had suported it with sufficient funds, there would be no question of needing to cancel it today?

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now make a statement on the future of the TSR2 project.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now make a further statement on the TSR2.

The further review announced by the Prime Minister on 2nd February is not yet complete. Until it is, I cannot make a statement.

Can my right hon. Friend give any indication when this final announcement will be made? Can he give an assurance to those hon. Members on this side of the House who would like to see the project abandoned that the scientific personnel employed on the project could easily be absorbed in much more worth-while projects?

I cannot give an exact date when an announcement will be made, but a decision will be taken as soon as we have assembled all the relevant facts. We are anxious not to take a decision before we have these facts, and are anxious not to postpone the decision the moment after we have them.

Can the Minister confirm that the trials are going extremely well, and far exceed expectations? Will he also comment on the fact that there is a drift of skilled people from the project, and will he make up his mind quickly?

As is inevitable at this stage, there are some difficulties with the aircraft, but the trials, on the whole, are going well. The Government will make up their mind as soon as they can, but they will have to decide between the advice of the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft), who urged us to be slow in making up our mind on this issue, and that of the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby).

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that he will be motivated in making his decision solely by the aeronautical and military considerations and not by the political pressure of his hon. Friends?

The Government—this is certainly a matter for the Government as a whole—in their decision will be actuated by a wide range of considerations. Certainly aeronautical, military and economic considerations as a whole and also certainly social and employment considerations.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will closely examine the defence white elephants built by the last Government and particularly those defence white elephants which they were trying to fly?

Is the Minister aware that grave anxiety has been caused in the industry by the suggestion of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence that there would be no need for a Canberra replacement in Europe and that, whatever decision the Government are likely to take on this question, this could mean a great contraction in orders for the TSR2? Can the Government clarify their position on this matter?

Clearly the need for a Canberra replacement in Europe is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and not for me.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether, in view of the fact that internal routes have greater flight frequencies than overseas routes, he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to British European Airways that when a number of flights have to be can-celled or amalgamated due to insufficient de-icing facilities or other reasons, overseas routes shall have an absolute priority of service over other internal services.

No, Sir. This is a matter for the airline concerned, but I understand that, if there is a choice, British European Airway's practice is to cancel the service that will cause least inconvenience and that they have the availability of alternative transport in mind.

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that in fact de-icing facilities at London Airport are now so inadequate that frequently early morning planes to Belfast during the winter have to be cancelled and that the position becomes more irritating in view of the fact that planes take off from Glasgow and other obscure places on the mainland?

I will see that these observations are conveyed to B.E.A., but I understand from B.E.A. that very high priority is given to the Belfast planes.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether Prestwick Airport is available as an alternative landing ground for British European Airways when Renfrew is fog-bound.

Yes, Sir.

As only passengers who wish to go to the west coast of Scotland, which includes Kilmarnock and Ayr, fly to Glasgow, is not it absurd that they should be diverted to Turnhouse on the east side and not to Prestwick which is nearer to their destination?

Yes, Turnhouse could be used as a diversionary airport.

Is my hon. Friend aware that people who are very sympathetic to airlines are concerned at what appears to be a lack of co-operation between B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. during fog conditions at Renfrew? Will he take some interest to see that there is the utmost co-operation by both airlines to fit together for the convenience of passengers?

We are concerned that there should be the utmost co-operation between B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. I will see that these observations are drawn to the attention of the Corporations.

Will that co-operation still exist when there are fog conditions at Prestwick?

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I wish to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Aviation what support, other than subsidy, Her Majesty's Government will give to private flying clubs.

asked the Minister of Aviation what support he will provide for flying clubs other than by subsidy.

We give significant support to flying clubs, principally by placing with them substantial contracts for the flying training of cadets and technical personnel, by providing free landing facilities at State-owned aerodromes, and now by helping to finance the development of new British light aircraft.

Is the Minister aware that the Government give very much less support to flying clubs than practically every other country? Does not he realise that a lot of flying clubs had financial trouble even before the withdrawal of the fuel rebate? Should not his right hon. Friend be encouraging flying clubs and young air-minded people instead of making their activities extremely difficult?

We want to encourage these flying clubs. I am not at all sure that the withdrawal of the rebate which has been referred to was an undue hardship on the clubs.

Would my hon. Friend bear in mind that the French Government backs its private flying clubs to the extent of £700,000 a year; that the Italian Government provides duty-free fuel; that the Canadian Government supports its clubs and that the support for our clubs is very poor in comparison?

I do not wish to be drawn into these comparisons—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]—because I am satisfied, having gone into the facts, that we give very important assistance to these clubs. If there are any further suggestions which the clubs wish to make to me they can do so through a Committee which will meet in a few weeks' time.

Is the Minister aware that it is no earthly use for the Government to give £600,000 to the only British light aircraft manufacturer and at the same time abolish the Junior Wing Scheme, take off the petrol rebate and, generally speaking, put flying clubs out of business?

As the hon. and gallant Member, who is very well experienced in these matters, knows, there are many other ways in which we can assist these clubs and we are doing that. We want to continue with constructive assistance.

Could not the Minister have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Secretary about the rebate before the Budget?

The rebate question cannot be re-examined at this stage. We are prepared to look at any further constructive suggestions for assistance to these clubs. In fact, we provide free facilities for them at State-owned aerodromes, and I am proposing to ask the British Airports Authority, when it is set up, to continue the facilities for these clubs.

Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that if evidence is produced to show that the withdrawal of the fuel rebate is causing grave hardship, it cannot conceivably be re-examined? Is that what he really meant to say?

What I said was that it cannot be re-examined for this year. If in future years it is shown beyond doubt that any undue hardship is being caused, we will re-examine it. That is not the position at this stage.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the steps he is taking to encourage flying clubs are insignificant compared with the blow struck by the abolition of the rebate?

I am not satisfied that the withdrawal of this comparatively small rebate will have the effect suggested.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, while we must bear in mind the defence aspects of training pilots, there are also the interests of the economy to bear in mind and that we should not necessarily subsidise people who regard this just as a weekend sport?

We are aware of those considerations. I ask the House to bear in mind that we are spending over £120,000 in financial assistance to clubs which undertake training schemes on our behalf.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall endeavour to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will instruct the member whom he will appoint to British European Airways' board, charged with paying special attention to the interests of the domestic passenger, to ensure that there will be two daily direct air services between London and Aberdeen, which now enjoys only one direct service daily.

The scale of services operated by British European Airways must remain a matter of its own responsibility.

Is the Minister aware that, owing to his expressed confidence that the appointment of this one extra member was going to bring speedy and acceptable results for the domestic passenger, there will be great disappointment if he cannot give instructions in the sense of the Question, particularly as the tourist season is coming on? No doubt he will be aware that owing to the cancellation of independent services to Glasgow and Edinburgh it is all the more necessary in the tourist season to have a direct service to Aberdeen and the North?

I have great confidence in the contribution which the consumer member on the Board will be able to make to the general pool of wisdom in B.E.A., but I am not going to start him off by giving a specific instruction about one service.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any instructions?

The hon. Gentleman, who has had responsibility in these matters, is surely aware that I can give general instructions but not specific instructions.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he is taking at the International Civil Aviation Organisation and otherwise to ensure that in inquiries into aircraft accidents full investigation is made into the causes of death, injury or survival of individual victims, and that this information is published in the reports of such inquiries as being of equal importance to the aeronautical findings.

The recent meeting of the Accident Investigating Division of the International Civil Aviation Organisation in Montreal at which the United Kingdom representative took a leading part, made recommendations which we support and which included proposals for investigating and reporting on survival and aero-medical aspects of aircraft accidents. These recommendations will be considered later this year by the Air Navigation Commission and afterwards by the Council of the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

Such a report is certainly welcome, but does the hon. Gentleman know that an aeroplane will be just as dangerous to its passengers if it crashes into water a quarter of a mile offshore or if it goes over 400 miles before crashing? At present, the requirements for dinghies apply only to aircraft travelling at least 400 miles. Is this included in the material which is being considered now?

This is being considered. We shall certainly bear that consideration in mind.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware that the flight of the Constellation belonging to the United States Airways engaged in transporting arms and ammunition and at present impounded in Malta originated in the United Kingdom; and what steps he is taking to prevent British airports being used in connection with illicit arms traffic.

I would refer my right hon. Friend to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to a similar Question on 25th February last; general questions about the transport of arms are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

In view of the fact that this gun-running operation is supposed to have originated from an airfield in this country, may I ask the Minister whether any undertaking has been received from United States Airways that no flights by its aircraft which are to be engaged in gun-running activities will originate from any airport in this country?

I shall refer that point to the Foreign Secretary, but I am satisfied, as a result of the investigations which have been made, that the aircraft had no cargo taken aboard when it was at the airport in the United Kingdom.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the aircraft which was used for this purpose had already been engaged—as the company had been engaged—in a contract for a civilian flight, for which money had been collected which has not at the moment been returned?

I am aware of that, but the Ministry did not allow the flight to take place because of the condition of the plane.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will improve lavatory facilities at London and Renfrew airports.

Facilities at Heathrow for passengers using No. 2 Passenger Building (Britannic) were improved last December. New facilities for passengers arriving on domestic services will be available this summer.

While the facilities at Renfrew are in total sufficient, I agree that their distribution is not ideal. Renfrew Airport will however be closed in about a year, when the new Glasgow Airport at Abbotsinch is opened, and the provision of additional facilities at Renfrew would not in these circumstances be justified.

Is the Minister aware that, in spite of the improvements to the No. 2 Britannic section of London Airport, I know from personal experience, that there was a queue on Monday at no fewer than three lavatories? Is he aware that this gives a very bad impression to people arriving in this country? I include the international section too, because I have made a journey from there. It gives a very bad impression of the cleanliness in this country compared to that of other aerodromes, two of which—Brussels and Milan—I know well, and which are infinitely superior to anything in this country.

The hon. Gentleman may like to read the Report of the Sanitary Ware Manufacturers two days ago, which gave special praise to the facilities provided at our airports. I freely admit, however, that when hundreds of people are arriving there in a particularly short period, the facilities can become congested.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the improvements going on to the domestic department at Heathrow seem to have taken an amazing length of time? Will he look into the possibility of improving and speeding up the work?

We will look at that point, but we hope that these facilities will be completed by the summer, when the main rush is expected.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary agree to give the same urgency to this matter as the Government gave to the provision of bathrooms and private lavatories for Ministers?

We will give it all possible consideration. In particular, we want the facilities to be provided quickiy, because we are anxious that our airports should provide the best facilities.

asked the Minister of Aviation why taxi-drivers are refused facilities for picking up passengers at Renfrew Airport.

Taxi-drivers may pick up passengers when called from their rank which is about 100 yards from the terminal building. There is a clear line of sight between the two. Passengers usually have no problem in summoning taxis, but, in order to make it still easier, a call-button connected to an illuminated sign is being installed in the terminal building.

While I thank my hon. Friend for that little concession, may I ask if he is aware that trouble still exists, and that it resides in the fact that, in 1953, the Tory Government granted Caledonian Cars a 12-year monopoly agreement at Renfrew Airport to provide services for air passengers at prices, unfortunately, which most of them could not pay? In view of the fact that that contract is now ripe for re-examination, will my hon. Friend look at it very carefully before he renews it?

I should like to thank my hon. Friend for his initial observation. We shall certainly bear in mind what he has said. I am satisfied that there is room for a car-hire facility at this airport.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether in view of the failure of the short-range Tartar and medium-range Terrier anti-aircraft weapons being developed for the United States Navy, he will approach the United States Government with a view to their purchase of similar British weapons which have been successfully developed, notably Sea Slug Mark 2 and Sea Dart, under the reciprocal arrangements which now exist.

I am aware of un-official reports of difficulties over Tartar and Terrier. The United States authorities have been fully informed of the capa bilities of Sea Slug and Sea Dart. It must be borne in mind, however, that missiles of this kind form part of an integrated ship system and cannot easily be substituted one for another.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the United States Government are said to be on the point of placing a development contract for the replacement of these two missiles, which have failed? Will he take a positive initiative to see that the American Government adopt British weapons which have been successfully developed—or is the trade to be entirely in one direction?

I am pursuing and will pursue, as vigorously as possible, efforts to make interdependence reciprocal.