asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government to what extent his Department"s suggestions to local authorities building accommodation for elderly people include the provision of a common room; and whether he will give consideration to this.

Local authorities have been advised by circular that in grouped housing schemes for the elderly, particularly in blocks of flatlets, it is useful to have a common room. This advice seems right.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this advice does not seem to be followed very extensively? Is he aware that even where there are groups of small houses it is desirable to have common rooms since old people living on their own, for example, widows, can be lonely even in a grouped housing scheme?

I entirely agree with the hon. Member, and according to information given to us the vast majority of local authorities provide a common room when they build these flatlets.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is now able to announce the conclusions of the Committee set up to examine the formula governing the rating of gas, electricity, and transport boards.

No, Sir. The Working Party on rating and valuation is still considering the formulae and a considerable amount of work remains to be done.

Can the hon. Gentleman give the House some idea when this Committee is likely to report? The circumstances and the conditions under which this legislation was previously enacted have changed so much in recent years that it is grossly unfair to local authorities that they should continue a moment longer than is necessary.

This Working Party was reconvened in the autumn of 1963 and adjourned in January, 1964. It made requests to the local authorities and waited 10 months before it finally received replies from them. It has now started considering the matter again and, therefore, it is not the Working Party"s fault.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what estimate he has now made of the total expenditure which will fall upon local authorities in 1965–66 as a result of the extra 6d. on petrol and diesel oil.

My right hon. Friend has not the information upon which to base an estimate and he does not think that the work involved in obtaining estimates from all local authorities would be warranted.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the average rate increase for just over 6 percent. of the authorities is over 13 percent. as opposed to only 8 percent. last year? Would he not agree that the 6d. increase in the fuel tax, in addition to various other Government measures, played a very great part in this increase?

It is unlikely to have been as much as a 1d. rate anywhere.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he intends to hand over responsibility for the new towns to the appropriate local authority.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will make a statement on his proposals for the transfer of the new towns to the appropriate local authorities.

The building of the new towns must continue to be the responsibility of development corporations. Like my hon. Friends I am not satisfied with the existing arrangements by which the assets of the corporations are transferred to the Commission for the New Towns when the building is substantially completed. But the change they desire would require new legislation.

Has the attention of my right hon. Friend been drawn to the Press report of a delegation which he received from the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors last December? The Press report says:

"The Minister made it clear that he was in favour of planning control remaining in the hands"—

Order. There are all kinds of difficulties about this. One is that verbatim quotations of that character are not permissible in a question. The other is that I am not sure what is following from the question founded on what is in the Press.

I beg your pardon, Mr. Speaker. Does my right hon. Friend remember that at that meeting he said that he would hand over responsibility for new towns at the earliest possible moment to the local authorities?

I think that my hon. Friend is confusing the question of assets with the question of management and control. It is important to make this distinction. When it is a question of transferring assets, say the total value of capital which is being put into a new town, this is a major question which requires legislation. When it is a question of handing over a particular undertaking, legislation permits the corporation, as of today, to hand it over to the local authority, or indeed to hand over the control of housing as distinct from its ownership. I have urged each corporation to be anxious to phase its planning of the transfer of management to the U.D.C. or R.D.C. as soon as possible when it suits it, but I have warned each of them that it is quite unrealistic to talk of the transfer of assets.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in many cases this will mean that the councillors will almost exclusively be council house tenants when the transfer takes place? What proposals has he for altering Section 76 of the Local Government Act, 1933?

There is a real problem here of the monopoly landlord, and it is precisely a question which I have asked the corporations and the local authorities to discuss in planning the phased take-over which. I think, has anyway got to take place.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we on this side will welcome the day when most of the persons resident in rented property are council tenants?

Does the Minister appreciate that the local authority would be the owner not only of the council houses but of the factories also, and would it not be wrong for a locally elected authority to be a supreme landlord of that kind?

These are all problems which have to be taken into account when we are considering the final development of self-government in a new town. It is a stage which we have reached at present with only two of the new towns, which have been handed over to the Commission, and there are two which are nearing that stage. In all those four cases I am anxious to establish good precedents for a sensible transfer because I am sure that the kind of highly autocratic centralised control required for the rapid construction of a new town is quite unsuitable for the permanent self-government of the kind of community we have there.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he expects to come to a decision on the Local Government Boundary Commission"s recommendations for Leicestershire.

I am hoping to announce my decision on the Commission"s proposals for Leicester before very long.

Does the Minister realise that it is now more than five years since the local Government Commission made its first recommendation and there is a real danger, now that there are nearly 40,000 extra people in the County of Leicester, that when he does come to a decision it will be based on inaccurate and out-dated information?

I am aware of the danger of delay. Perhaps I may say to the hon. Gentleman that, if it is five years since the Commission"s first recommendation, it is only five months since I took office. I have been studying this, and the hon. Gentleman will realise—I know that he has studied the problem carefully—that it is one of the most complex and difficult and, if I may say so, important decisions in relation to the Local Government Commission which I have to take. I promise him that it will not be very long delayed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will assist local authorities to apply the Rating (Interim Relief) Act, 1964, by issuing guidance to them regarding the application of the Act in cases of hardship.

No, Sir. The Report of the Allen Committee underlines the difficulty of giving a satisfactory definition of hardship. For the present at least, we must leave it to rating authorities to reach their own conclusions in the light of local circumstances.

A number of local authorities are having great difficulty in working the Rating (Interim Relief) Act, 1964, purely on the question of the definition of hardship. Now that he has the evidence of the Allen Committee before him on this very subject, would it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to issue a small pamphlet of guidance to local authorities so that they can put this very useful little Act to better work?

Whether the Act was more than a piece of political window-dressing is another question. A little pamphlet to define the Allen Committee"s definition of hardship would be an oversimplification of one of the most abstruse and learned Reports I have ever tried to read. I quote only one sentence from it which shows how difficult it was for the Committee to come to a conclusion:

"The mass of evidence we have had on hardship makes it clear that this is a relative and subjective concept; we received more expressions of opinion on what hardship is not than on what it is."

Does not what the right hon. Gentleman has just said support my hon. Friend"s suggestion that this is a subject on which he could be helpful to local authorities by, whatever the difficulties, helping them on the construction of this provision which, as he will appreciate, is of great importance to a limited number of unfortunate people?

I will consider that, but the greatest help I can give is to hurry on with the reform of the rating system and of local government finance.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is aware of the interference with the living conditions of residents in the Tividale area of Rowley Regis due to noise from industrial undertakings; and what steps he will take to deal with nuisance caused by noise.

One complaint about this was made to the Department last April. It is for the local authority, not my right hon. Friend, to take steps to abate a nuisance, and he understands that they have persuaded the firms concerned to take measures which should result in a considerable improvement.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, while most industrial firms use the best practicable means to abate noise from their factories, in some places they do not succeed and this nuisance continues? Would he ask the Minister to consider strengthening the powers of the local authorities and providing assistance to them for the provision of soundproof windows, as has been done in residential areas surrounding London Airport?

If an industrial firm is making the best efforts it can to abate nuisance, that is a good defence. Aggrieved occupiers have power to take their complaints to court themselves without waiting for the local authority.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, throughout the country, there is growing revolt by residents against unnecessary industrial noise? Will he consider again the recommendations of the Wilson Report to see what can be done further to strengthen the powers of local authorities?

There is not much general evidence that the powers under the anti-noise legislation are not proving effective where they are used.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what advice he received from his Advisory Committee on Historic Buildings in connection with the listing of the Ritz Hotel, Piccadilly, as a building of historic interest.

The Committee first recommended that the Ritz Hotel should be listed as a building of special architectural or historic interest in 1960. Action however was postponed. When this was brought to my attention by my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) I at once gave instructions that this omission should be put right in order to ensure that any threat to this unique example of Edwardian taste should be brought to the attention of the planning authority.

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having taken the action he took, but is it not the case that the Advisory Committee suggested that the hotel should be listed and that, without reference to either him or to his predecessor, this was reversed and it was decided not to list it? Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that decisions of this sort, whatever the merits, should be brought to the Minister concerned? Will he take the necessary action to ensure that this is done in future?

It is a fact that the Advisory Committee made its recommendation in 1960. What happened between then and autumn, 1964, is a matter for my predecessors and not for me.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will now take action on the question of the reorganisation of local government finance, in the light of the findings of the Allen Committee; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now take steps to relieve the rate burden in those areas that have little industry and a high proportion of retired people.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he is taking to relieve local authorities of a further part of the burden of educational expenditure.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress he is making with his review of the rating system; and whether he will make a statement about his specific proposals for reforming the system.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government, whether he will now make a statement on the reorganisation of local government finance, in view of the Report of the Allen Committee.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in view of the heavy increases in rates this year, he will bring forward early legislation to ensure a fairer distribution of this burden.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) whether, in view of the delay in implementing the policy of giving early relief to ratepayers by transferring a larger part of the burden of public expenditure from local authorities to the Exchequer, he will take steps to arrange for a system of grants to be made to those towns where the proportion of domestic rateable value in relation to commercial and industrial rateable values is higher than the national average;

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what are his proposals about the burden of education costs which is falling on local authorities; and if he will make a statement on future Government policy in this field.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress has been made in his examination of the problem of local government finance; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now make a statement on local government finance, in view of the urgency of the problem.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he will propose changes in local government finance following his consideration of the Allen Report; and if he will make a statement.

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will answer this Question and Nos. 23, 50, 55, 69, 73, 77, 86, 89, 94, 95 and 97 together.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My Question, No. 50, is quite different from the other Questions the right hon. Gentleman proposes to answer. Would it be possible for him to answer Question No. 50 separately?

It cannot be a matter for the Chair. I have no power in this respect.

The Government are pushing on as fast as possible with their examination of local government finance and the rating system in the light of the Allen Report. When it is concluded there will be no delay in announcing our plans.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the findings of the Allen Report indicate that the weakest members of the community are subject to a very high burden of rates—the elderly, those with relatively low fixed incomes and those men with relatively large families? Will he give sympathetic consideration to the proposals of Newcastle City Council that those boroughs with large-scale, costly redevelopment schemes in areas of high unemployment should receive special help? Is my right hon. Friend aware that this would relieve the crippling rates burden in Newcastle?

The second part of my hon. Friend"s supplementary question is probably a matter of grant or subsidy rather than of local government finance. I accept what he says in the first part of the supplementary question. One of the main conclusions of the Allen Committee was that elderly people particularly who do not have their rates paid by the National Assistance—and it is estimated that half a million of those who qualify for this assistance do not apply for it—are appallingly hard hit even by a rate increase of 8d. in the £ each year. Thus, the case for rating reform is strongly substantiated.

Is it the right hon. Gentleman"s view that we should transfer at least part of the education burden from the rates? If so, when will this be done? Is he aware that this is causing great hardship to many grandmas and grandpas who are having to pay for the education of children of wealthy people living in urban areas?

Part of our election manifesto was the transfer of the cost of teachers" salaries—or a large proportion of it—from the rates to taxation. But, as I have pointed out outside the House, this is now seen to be far too small an operation to achieve the objective required, which is shifting the balance from rates to taxation if the rates system is not to break down. Thus, a far more drastic reconstruction of the system is required.

In view of the concern felt all over the country about the increases in rates this year, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the timetable which he contemplates will enable action to be taken to prevent further similar increases next year?

That will depend on a great many things outside my Department. It is a question which should be put to my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council, or, indeed, to the Leader of the Opposition, for it will depend on the progress we make in our legislative programme this year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether, in the current review of the South-East study, he will take particular note of the representations he has received from the Kent County Council concerning the need to expand Aylsham.

My right hon. Friend is giving consideration to all the proposals which the county council made in their comments on the South-East Study.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. Is he aware that when Aylsham was planned by Professor Abercrombie, in 1925, it was intended to be a town of between 30,000 and 40,000, but that its growth was stopped in its infancy? Is he also aware that by its location, its transport facilities and in other ways it is eminently suited as a new centre for industry and population in south-east Kent, and will he take seriously the representations made to him on a number of occasions by the Kent County Council?

Yes, Sir. I well understand the anxiety which is felt about the difficulties of this area, but I cannot say anything at this stage which would anticipate the outcome of the South-East Study.

Will my hon. Friend also confirm that he and his right hon. Friend are paying particular attention to the representations by Kent County Council and others about the Isle of Sheppey? In view of the scope for development on the Isle of Sheppey?, will he bear in mind that we on the island feel that we have a considerable part to play in the economy of what we refer to as the mainland?

That is a fair point and the answer is, "Yes, Sir".

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will now announce his decision on the Somerset part of the Bristol and Bath Green Belt.

I have sent the hon. Member a copy of the letter addressed to the county council on 12th March notifying them of my proposed modifications to the green belt.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for sending me a copy of the modifications. Will he regard this green belt as of absolutely vital importance and do his utmost to see that the details are settled, in the light of the necessary consultations, as rapidly as possible?

Yes, I certainly will. It is possible that we may have another inquiry, but I hope that it will not take long and I agree that this is something which we want to get settled firmly.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is his policy on an increase in the number of yacht marinas.

My right hon. Friend has no objection to marinas in the right places.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that dinghy sailing and boating are probably the fastest growing popular sports in the country and that 1,700 clubs and about 500,000 people are involved? As there is a shortage of moorings, will he see that his Department takes an encouraging attitude towards these proposals?

My right hon. Friend is very anxious to do so, but in some cases the planning conditions do not make this a desirable development.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in considering planning applications concerning the disposal of railway-owned land, he will encourage local authorities to develop land adjacent to railway stations as municipal bus stations or car parks.

In deciding a planning application the local planning authority or the Minister on appeal can only consider the development proposed. But my right hon. Friend has just sent to every planning authority a bulletin on car parking which includes advice about integrating parking and public transport facilities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his decision will be welcomed by those who are interested in integrated transport for the future? His indication that railway land in close proximity to existing railway stations ought to be used for this purpose will also be welcomed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress has been made by his Department in the discussions with Essex County Council for the provision of lawful places for gypsies and other travellers to park, particularly during those months when farm work is not available, so that there is no need for them to seek sanctuary in Kent to escape difficulties in Essex.

I understand that the council has approved in principle the provision of sites for itinerants and are at present discussing two sites with the district councils concerned.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Essex has a very bad record in this connection and that at the last census had twice as many caravan families as Kent? Does he not think that the basic principles involved here—Christianity, Socialism and democracy—are such that we might hold our own freedom march in the County of Essex?

I do not want to cause trouble between Essex and Kent. I gather that between 1962 and the last census the gypsy population of Essex increased from 208 to 234 caravans.

Twice as many as Kent.

It is also true that, unlike Kent, Essex provides no sites for them and that not even planning permission has been obtained. This is a serious situation, because if it is known that one single county is providing sites and others are not, there is a tendency for the bees to cluster round the honey, and this has happened to poor Kent. I agree that those who have been virtuous have not been rewarded for their premature virtue.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the point he has just made is very serious in the County of Kent and will become progressively more serious in Essex? Is there any way in which he can induce other counties to take these responsibilities more seriously and so avoid the undoubted penalties which are falling on counties which have produced the right answers first?

This is a minor but serious problem and I have just arranged for a national census of gypsies and itinerants, which actually took place yesterday, thanks to the help of the police throughout the country. When I have that information in hand, which will be in a few weeks, we shall be able to assess the allocation of the problem; then we can make up our minds whether we need to do more than try to advise the counties on doing their jobs.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will give the results of the census recently carried out by the Kent County Council in an effort to ascertain the number of gypsies and other travellers without lawful parking places during the winter months.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has now received the results of the census in Kent of gypsies and other travellers; and what action he proposes to take.

The survey carried out by Kent County Council showed within the county 264 caravans apparently needing sites on 1st January this year.

I thank my right hon. Friend for what he has said. Does he appreciate that for the last 15 years I have heard Minister after Minister make optimistic statements and yet in Kent there are hundreds of men, women and children without water and without sanitation and without the most elementary fundamentals of civilisation? Is it not a scandal that we in this great country can do nothing better than we have done by just making promises over the years?

I have not made any promises. I have undertaken a national census on the basis of which to decide how we can treat this minor problem to make sure that each area takes its responsibility. That is the position. I hope that we can learn a lot, not only from the Dutch example, but also from Southern Ireland where they have tackled this problem very sensibly.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Strood Rural District Council has borne this problem for many, many years? This is a national problem. Is he further aware that unless national action is taken my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) and myself will make this a long-playing record until he does?

I can quite appreciate hon. Members who represent these areas feeling that this is a grievance. On the other hand, we do not want to burden ourselves with unnecessary legislation unless it is absolutely necessary. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] We have plenty of necessary legislation to push through the House. I want to see what we can do by persuading counties rather than by new legislation imposing burdens on them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he expects to make a decision on the Local Government Boundary Commission"s recommendations for Tees-side; and if he will make a statement.

I will announce my conclusions as soon as I can.

Would the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that he will announce these conclusions before the inquiry starts into Scarborough and Haltemprice, as it is extremely difficult to make an argument until we know what his decisions about Tees-side are?

I do not think we need necessarily postpone decisions about Tees-side until those conclusions are reached. I think we can regard these separately.

I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman has got it the wrong way round. We want these conclusions before the inquiry at Scarborough, Haltemprice or Harrogate.

I think that I got it the right way round. I said that I did not think that we had to postpone this until after the conclusions had been reached. This is what I think, anyway.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proposals he has to make on the use of the Royal Ordnance Factory site at Swynnerton in Staffordshire.

Proposals for various alternative uses of this site have been put to me by the Staffordshire County Council. I have told it I will consider these further when I have studied the report of the West Midlands regional study. This is due later this year.

Would the right hon. Gentleman be so good as to tell the House when he expects the regional Midlands study to be available in view of the many regional Midlands studies made previously? There is a long delay in these matters.

There is no delay. It will be ready this summer.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will take steps to encourage and assist local authorities to protect house purchasers from unscrupulous or incompetent builders.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what measures he has taken to stamp out jerrybuilding.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he is taking to ensure good housing standards in private development projects.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action he is taking to encourage local authorities to raise standards of house building.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action he is taking through local authorities to protect home buyers against builders of poor quality houses.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether, in view of the volume of evidence concerning jerry-built houses, he will now take steps to deal with the problem.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he proposes to take to ensure that people buying their own houses get homes of a building standard equal to that established for local authority houses built for letting.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will take steps to encourage local authorities to protect house purchasers against builders of low-quality houses.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will take steps to prevent the erection of jerry-built houses.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the growing concern about the low quality of house building; what steps he will take to improve standards; and if he will now make a statement.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will set up an independent inquiry into the standards of house building to give purchasers protection against jerry-building.

I am determined to achieve an improvement in housing standdards as well as better protection for purchasers. To this end, I am consulting representative bodies of the house building industry, local authorities, building societies, professional institutions and other interested organisations. I am not yet ready to make any statement.

My right hon. Friend"s reply will be received with great satisfaction on both sides of the House and outside, because this is one of the major problems we face in housing problems today. Will he consider the possibility of enabling the local authorities to carry out inspection of building? The machinery exists, although they have not enough building inspectors at present. Will my right hon. Friend consider a levy on the building industry to finance this local authority service?

It is jumping the gun a bit to assume a certain solution there. We are consulting all the interested bodies precisely to find out their views. It is not my impression that by any means all local authorities are anxious to take on this enormous extra responsibility, without the necessary staff. They have quite enough trouble managing and seeing that their own houses which they build are up to an adequate standard. In my view, we may well find that self-government and self-discipline in the industry is better than control from outside.

Has the Minister yet been able to study the proposals of the Consumers Association on jerry-building, and does he agree with them?

Yes, I have made a close study of those proposals. I asked representatives of the Association to come to see me and I had a long talk with them. I think that the Association did a useful job, though many of the statements which it made in its report were, perhaps, a little unfair because they had been completely out-dated by the new standards laid down before it was published. This was admitted to me in conversation. However, the stimulus was very good. What is important is to realise that, if we are to have self-discipline, we must have an institution representing the whole of the building industry, architects, consumers and the rest—an adequate overall body. We are a long way from that, and my main anxiety is to encourage existing institutions to move as fast as they can to a point where we regard them as representative.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there has been a dramatic fall in the standard by size particularly of local authority housing over the past 13 years, while right hon. and hon. Members opposite were in power, and will he take every action he can to encourage local authorities to improve the standard?

Yes, but I think that we were mostly concerned in this Question not with the standard of local authority building but with that of private enterprise building. I agree with my hon. Friend that in both cases there is a danger of rabbit hutches being constructed because of the pressure to maximise quantity as against quality, and in a Circular I am now issuing to local authorities I emphasise the need for quality in their building. Quality in private enterprise building is precisely what I want this self-disciplining institution to achieve. It is important to recognise that we were building bigger and, in certain ways, better houses 12, 14 or 15 years ago than the ones being built today. The Parker Morris standards are the standards which we are urging as the ones needed today.

Has the Minister considered the view which is held by some people that the terms implied in the contract for sale of a new house are inadequate for the protection of the purchaser, and will he consult his noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, and, perhaps, the new Law Commission, to see whether that view can be enacted?

I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. There is a great deal in this, and we are consulting the Building Societies Association also along similar lines.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many local authorities have ceased to give 100 percent. mortgages or have increased the rate of interest in respect of mortgages since Her Majesty"s Government took office.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many local authorities have increased the rates of interest charged on mortgages since Her Majesty"s Government took office.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many local authorities are continuing to grant 100 percent. mortgages; and what is the current rate of interest being charged.

The 1,200 local authorities which operate lending schemes send me quarterly returns of advances made, showing 100 percent. advances separately, but these returns do not show how many have suspended lending entirely or have given up making 100 percent. advances. Press reports and other sources indicate that 36 authorities have suspended lending schemes entirely, of which three are known to have resumed lending. No returns are made of the interest rates charged.

Does not the fact that all the Labour Party"s promises on this matter have been broken cause the right hon. Gentleman some embarrassment? Is it not rather a curious method of carrying out what he called his pledges in due priorities to act entirely contrary to those pledges?

I cannot find anything contrary to their pledges in what the Government did during an acute economic crisis.

Will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to influence the Chancellor of the Exchequer to get Bank Rate down so that housing charges can be reduced and greater advantage taken by people who want houses to rent or buy?

The hon. Gentleman is a profound reader of my mind. This is something I seek to do day by day.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will introduce legislation to amend the Housing Act, 1957, in order that market value may become the basis of assessment for the payment of compensation for all properties compulsorily acquired.

My right hon. Friend is keeping these compensation provisions under review, but he does not think the public should generally pay market value for houses which are not fit to be lived in. Market value is paid for all other property.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in my Borough of Eastleigh and a number of others, clearance orders are being placed on owner-occupied houses on which recently the local authorities have granted mortgages and that on 13th December this year the provisions of Schedule 2 of the Housing Act, 1957, will come to an end? Will the Government consider renewing those powers, which would make a great deal of difference to the people concerned and make it easier for local authorities to get ahead with the problem of twilight houses?

As far as I know, there is not likely to be any official Bill to extend the powers of that Act. My right hon. Friend has not had any formal representations in the case of Eastleigh about the clearance area there. If he does, he will have the duty of deciding whether the houses are fit or not. It would, therefore, not be right for me to comment on the rather paradoxical situation that has arisen in Eastleigh.

The hon. Gentleman said that there was no official Bill. Does this mean that these provisions are definitely coming to an end in December this year?

There is a Bill in the name of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) which deals with the situation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is aware that some owners who purchased their houses before the publication of local redevelopment schemes are being compelled, under compulsory purchase order, to accept a lower sum than the original purchase price, and that this constitutes an injustice to people who have invested their life savings in their house; and whether he will take action to remedy this situation.

So far as my right hon. Friend is aware this is a problem only where the houses are found to be unfit for occupation. It would be wrong for the public to have to pay for buildings in this condition.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that very often houses regarded by authorities as being unfit for human habitation are none the less considered by their present occupants to be perfectly fit and that an authority's decision may constitute a hardship to certain individuals? As the Minister is evidently considering a vast extension of compulsory purchase powers, will be bear in mind that this possible hardship is latent? Will he not allow his natural prejudice against owner-occupiers to condone an extension of this hardship?

If any one authority considers that it has in any way misled any particular owner-occupier and that hardship is involved, if that local authority will contact my right hon. Friend, we shall be prepared to consider any individual case on its merits.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the growing practice among property owners of selling off bad property in areas which are known to be about to be development areas in the hope of cashing in, and that people buy these houses in the hope of getting to the top of the housing list by having a form of key money taken from them?

Yes, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that with the best will in the world local authorities have considerable legal disabilities about paying any sort of compensation when a house is purchased under a clearance order, that they cannot always do the just thing and that an amendment to the law is needed?

I was asked about compensation and I say again that we are concerned only with paying site value for a house which is found to be unfit for human occupation. It may be that the owner-occupier bought the house just before it was compulsorily acquired and there may be individual hardship which we would be prepared to consider, but we believe in the principle of paying only site value and no more for such property.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will issue a circular to all local authorities and housing development corporations emphasising the desirability that henceforth all new housing development should have their underground supply services, such as gas, electricity, water, telephone, radio, heat, etc., carried through underground concrete ducts filled with easily-removed covers, thus eliminating the digging and filling-in of the roadway when breakdowns occur.

No, Sir. There are technical difficulties in laying services in a common duct, and these can be overcome only at considerable expense. My right hon. Friend is not satisfied that any advantages to be obtained would be worth the extra cost.

I appreciate that Ministers do not habitually accept technological change without a fight, but would my hon. Friend agree that there is sufficient reason for carrying out an extensive survey into this problem in order to inject some scientific understanding into our building methods which is so badly needed in the building industry? Would he have another look at this matter so as not to disappoint his grandchildren who are expecting this technological Government to do a great deal from the point of view of change?

The Ministry of Public Building and Works is studying this among other methods, including a simplification of site works. But the Answer which I gave concerned the immediate question of cost, which is very important.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will now give details of Her Majesty"s Government"s proposals for helping intending owner-occupiers to enjoy lower mortgage interest rates.

I have nothing to add at present to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) and other hon. Members on 2nd February.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is high time that the Labour Party"s pre-election pledges were kept? Is he aware that there are many would-be owner-occupiers who are desperately disappointed with the Government in view of what they said during the election because they have not taken the action necessary to reduce mortgage rates —in fact, the very reverse?

I think that that kind of question is getting otiose even with the electorate. They know perfectly well that it is quite ridiculous to demand that a five-year programme should be carried out in five months. The fact that the hon. Gentleman goes after me delights me, because it means that he is keeping the issue alive so that when we announce our proposals they will give pleasure to those who see them.

Is the Minister aware that this is not just a case of failure to carry out an election pledge within five months? It is the fact that mortgage rates are now higher than they were, despite the promise of himself and his right hon. Friends that they should be lower. Can he at least say whether, when at last he moves in this matter, he will apply the lower rates to those who take up mortgages now and therefore not discourage people from home ownership?

I shall say nothing to anticipate the legislation or the pleasure of those who may receive the benefit of it.

Questions to the Prime Minister.

On a point of order. Before we come to the Prime Minister"s Questions, may I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Is it possible for us so to fill up the Order Paper that 3.15 p.m. never comes?

That would appear to be hypothetical and not calculated to ensure progress now.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now appoint a Minister of State for Science and Technology in the Commons.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now appoint a Minister of State for Science and Technology in the House of Commons.

No, Sir.

Will not the work be extremely heavy? Is the Prime Minister satisfied that his right hon. Friend the Minister will have time to do it in view of his professional commitments outside the House?

The hon. Gentleman is becoming a bore on that question. I thought hon. Members opposite were opposed to the establishment of a Ministry of Technology. If they are consistent in that, I find it a little hard to understand why they want to have more Ministers there.

But would not the right hon. Gentleman consider appointing someone like Lord Snow whose views on comprehensive education are so much respected by hon. Members on this side of the House? Would he like to say how he reconciles his own views on the grammar schools and about getting rid of them "over his dead body" and Lord Snow"s views on the comprehensive education policy of the Labour Party?

I should have expected hon. Members to do better than think up these laborious supplementary questions three or four weeks after tabling the Question. My noble Friend—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]—Some hon. Members opposite would not understand even if I did. My noble Friend is already Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry. If hon. Members would like to see him promoted, I would, of course, consider any representations which they make on that score. The other points do not arise on this Question.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now give the Secretary of State for Wales at least the same responsibilities for Wales as the Secretary of State for Scotland has for Scotland.

No, Sir.

Is the Prime Minister aware that that is a very unsatisfactory Answer? Prior to the last General Election we were promised a Secretary of State who would have wide executive responsibility for health, housing and local government, agriculture and education? When will he stop treating Wales like a second-class nation? As the Minister of Agriculture seems to have gone broody on Questions, will the right hon. Gentleman consider transferring these responsibilities to the Secretary of State for Wales so that the problems of Welsh agriculture can be dealt with adequately at Question Time?

I thought that the hon. Gentleman spent the whole of the last election fighting against all our proposals in this field, as well as in the field of leasehold enfranchisement, and indeed he wasted a lot of my time sending me telegrams at various moments expressing his views. As regards our pre-election programme, we said that the Secretary of State for Wales would have a wide responsibility in all these fields, and so he has. We did not say, and I never said, that we would adopt the Scottish solution in relation to Wales.

Is it not clear that the electors in many parts of Wales were persuaded to vote for the Labour Party —[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—in the expectation that the Secretary of State would have powers analogous to those of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and why did the Labour Party adopt this nationalistic policy, if not perhaps to take some votes from the Welsh Nationalist Party?

The hon. Gentleman never showed this vigour when he was on this side of the House—at any rate not in that particular direction. I can understand his feeling of disappointment and resentment that in 13 years his own side never did anything for Wales.

Will the Prime Minister say whether he is contemplating extending the executive powers of the Secretary of State for Wales, and is not the Ministry of Health ripe for a change at the moment?

I did not quite hear the hon. and learned Gentleman"s question.

Is not the Ministry of Health the right Ministry for the next extension of executive powers to the Secretary of State for Wales?

I am not contemplating any extension. We are going to see how this works. It is my impression that it is working very well in these fields where my right hon. Friend has the degree of responsibility which he has been given in the Transfer of Functions Order. We shall watch the working of the Health Service in Wales in this connection. Up to now I have seen no argument for making a further change.

asked the Prime Minister whether, on his visit to President de Gaulle, he will publicly associate himself with the latter"s declaration that the West German Government should recognise as final Germany"s existing frontiers with Poland, Czechoslovakia and other countries.

The policy of Her Majesty"s Government is that the final determination of the frontier between Germany and Poland cannot be formalised until there is a peace settlement. As regards the frontier between Germany and Czechoslovakia, Her Majesty"s Government take the view that no consideration should be given to any changes effected in 1938.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he agrees that in the last 20 years the provisional has become permanent, that Western Poland is now settled by over 6 million Poles and that important industries have been founded there? These territories are an integral part of Poland, and in the circumstances does not it render a disservice to peace to encourage illusions in Western Germany that they can still restore their 1937 frontier?

Of course a lot has happened in the last 20 years, particularly in the establishment or reestablishment of dwellings, factories, and so on, but there is no peace settlement, and that question cannot be settled until there is.

While agreeing with much that has been put to the Prime Minister by the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), may I ask the Prime Minister to be careful, when he visits President de Gaulle, that the President does not use him to drive a wedge between this country and America and between both our countries and the Soviet Union over this problem?

I would always bear the hon. Gentleman"s warnings very carefully in mind.

asked the Prime Minister what arrangements he has made for the carrying out of his Parliamentary duties during his absence.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to a Question by the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) on 18th February.

That did not tell us very much. Does not the Prime Minister agree that he adds up to a large Administration, and should not he think in terms of appointing a deputy Prime Minister? Is he aware that according to the newspapers today there is a space explorer called Brown who at this minute is in the "Go" position? In any event, in view of the growing influence in his party of the hon. Members for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus) and Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman), will he consult them if he thinks of appointing a deputy?

The hon. Gentleman"s question is very laboured, but his main Question referred to my absences. I do not intend to be absent more than I can help during the periods when I am due to answer Questions here, and when I do go abroad, in the main I try to avoid absenting myself when I should be here to answer Questions, so I do not think that this very involved and laboured Question really takes us much further.

Will my right hon. Friend advise on the appointment of a deputy Leader of the Opposition to avoid all the manoeuvrings on the opposite side of the House?

asked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Minister of Housing and Local Government given on 26th February at a civic dinner in Huyton on local government finance represents the policies of Her Majesty"s Government.

Yes, Sir, and as one of his fellow-guests I can confirm that my right hon. Friend responded to the opportunities presented by the Huyton-with-Roby Urban District Council with a speech of appropriate coruscation.

Does not the Prime Minister agree that his right hon. Friend was hoodwinking the British public when he said that it was only after examining the books that Her Majesty"s Government realised that local government expenditure would double in the next 10 years? Does he agree that the easiest way of relieving the burden on the rates, if he really wishes to do so, is to increase the amount of the general grant so that it covers a greater proportion of the expenditure?

I am sure that even if my right hon. Friend were ever, which is inconceivable, to set out with a plan to hoodwink the British people, he would not start in Huyton, because, as has been shown, there was a 19,000 majority after the forecast of the right hon. and learned Member for Wirral (Mr. Selwyn Lloyd) that I would be defeated. The constituency of Huyton is used to evaluating the truth.

Is the Prime Minister aware that no authentic script of this speech exists? The Library of the House of Commons cannot supply one, and all that one can get is an extract which is available at Transport House. It is not available to Members of this House on request. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider giving the Paymaster-General something to do by spreading about the correct version of this speech?

I shall be delighted to send the hon. Gentleman a copy of this, and, indeed, if there is none in the Library of the House, I shall see that one is placed there, because I think that its educational and therapeutic value will be tremendous.

Is it within my right hon. Friend"s recollection that in December, 1963, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government in the last Administration said that there was no satisfactory alternative system of financing local government? Was not that an apathetic answer?

I thought that it was a rather vigorous answer. The late Government failed to do anything on this question, and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has explained that we have a very urgent review of local government finance going on at the present time. I do not think that anyone has ever said that it would be easy to find a new method of local government taxation, but this review is going on urgently, and when the results are complete we shall tell the House what those results are.

Mr. Rose.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, is it in order to ask whether Question No. 7 has been deferred?

The hon. Member can observe that I did not call it. That is all.