asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will arrange for statistics covering homosexual offences to indicate the number of convictions involving young persons under the age of 21.

The Criminal Statistics for England and Wales already indicate the number of persons under 21 found guilty of homosexual offences. My right hon. Friend will consider whether they could also give information about the ages of the victims when he has the report of the Departmental Committee on Criminal Statistics, which is examining the possibility of recording the ages of the victims of offences generally.

As we are under very considerable pressure, based on the number of convictions, to allow more licence to homosexual activities, is it not essential to get figures which show the number of offences against young persons and the number of offences committed in public?

Yes. As I said, we have the figures for the offences committed. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is a case for so changing the statistics that we also get the number of the victims and their ages.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the term "victims" is not necessarily applicable to everybody below the age of 21 who takes part in homosexual activities?

I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will take all these matters into consideration when reviewing the statistics.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why a prisoner at Winson Green was kept in solitary confinement from 28th May, 1964, to 10th November, 1964; and if he will ensure that there is no repetition of solitary confinement of this duration.

The reason was as stated in the Answer I gave on 26th November last. The situation created by this most exceptional case is unlikely to recur.

Is the hon. Lady aware that this period of detention—six months—gives rise to very real concern? Can she say what steps, if any, have been taken to make certain that if this issue were repeated, these circumstances would not be repeated?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about these cases. With regard to this particular case, this was a prisoner with a record of violence who was segregated on 26th May pending the police investigation into an incident where the man was alleged to have struck another prisoner a violent blow and then, while the other prisoner was on the floor, kicked him about the head until he was unconscious. This man was segregated from his fellow prisoners until his trial at the assizes, which did not take place until 10th November. I think that it was the very great delay in the assizes which was responsible, but I would add that this prisoner is now in Grendon Psychiatric Prison, receiving treatment. I hope that in future there will not be this long segregation of prisoners in cells.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps to enable him to grant to local authorities the power to establish municipal casinos, with a view to exercising a proper control over this form of gambling.

No, Sir. My right hon. Friend does not propose to introduce legislation for this purpose.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the real object of legislation of this kind is to exercise a proper control over this form of gambling? Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is a sad commentary on a hundred years of social progress that we have moved from laissez faire to chemin de fer? Is my hon. Friend further aware that when the history of this era, this age, is read, it will be known as the "B.B.C. age"—bingo, betting and casinos?

I do not understand the reference which my hon. Friend has made. Maybe he will explain it to me. He will be aware that an extension such as he asks for would cause great offence to a great many ratepayers who would have to pay for something to which they took the strongest exception.

It all goes to show that we should maintain our rule that the House should be addressed in English.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take steps to deal with the problem of immigration which takes place by means of false passports.

All practicable steps are taken to deal with this problem.

Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it is impossible to know the exact immigrant population in this country, so many evasions having taken place? Secondly, would he look at the idea of having fingerprint identification on passports?

It is difficult to form an accurate estimate as to the total number of the immigrant population of this country. With regard to the second part of the supplementary question, I do not see any necessity for that.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that it would be a most offensive thing to introduce and would have to apply not only to the coloured immigrants but to white Commonwealth immigrants as well? Will he take the strongest possible objection to this sort of Question, put down once again to raise the issue in this House, and the manner in which it has been done?

It is perfectly evident that any steps of that sort, whatever they are, must be taken with complete impartiality both in the case of white immigrants from the older Commonwealth countries and in the case of coloured immigrants from the newer Commonwealth countries. It is perfectly evident that there would have to be complete impartiality.

Irrespective of the merits of this matter, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the House and the country whether the creation of a multi-racial society in these islands is an aim of deliberate policy of the Government, which would be one thing, or whether it is coming about by a process of involuntary drift, which would be quite another?

We are multi-racial now. There are between 800,000 and 1 million coloured immigrants in this country, and we must try to behave as civilized people and live happily together in a prosperous and well-ordered community.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the effects which the increased petrol duty will have on the remuneration of taxi drivers, if he will take early appropriate steps to restore their earning power.

The increased duty should make only a small addition to operating costs, which will in most cases fall on taxicab proprietors rather than the drivers. No initiative on my right hon. and learned Friend's part appears to be called for. My right hon. and learned Friend is aware that the trade consider that the increased costs of cab operation since fares were last adjusted justify reconsideration of the present tariff, and they have been told that any application for an increase must, in accordance with the usual practice, be accompanied by audited accounts.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would not he agree that the improvement in the service to London Transport rendered by taxi drivers and taxi-cab operators justifies any means of keeping the trade prosperous? However much the increased petrol duty affects the taxi-cab trade, would not he agree that in so far as we have promised access to reduce petrol duty for other transport undertakings the same exemption may be made available to taxi drivers in the London area?

No, Sir. The additional fuel duty is 6d. per gallon. On a calculation of 20 miles to the gallon the extra cost per mile would be little more than ¼d., and the average for a hiring a little more than ld. The proprietors say that they would need an extra 2d. a hiring to cover the extra cost. They are looking into the matter to supply us with the necessary information.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the urgent need to increase the number of taxis available, especially as the Liberal Party now needs many more in London than it used to need?

Two taxis instead of one.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what arrangements are being made by the Metropolitan Police in connection with the Easter march of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what special arrangements are being made by the Metropolitan Police in connection with the Easter march of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

The Commissioner of Police will make a final decision on the measures to be taken by the Metropolitan Police when arrangements for the march have been completed by its organisers.

I thank the home Secretary for that reply. Can he give an assurance that no C.N.D. sympathisers in the Government will take part in these activities in the Metropolitan area?

I can give no assurance whatsoever; processions are perfectly lawful in this country.

May I press the right hon. Gentleman a little on this matter? How many of his right hon. Friends will be marching this year, and does he know whom they will be?

I have not the slightest idea. It is entirely a matter for them.

Would not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that these marches of protest serve a useful purpose in forming public opinion as exemplified by the march now being walked—if that be the correct term—with the encouragement of President Johnson in America?

I thought we lived in the greatest democracy in the world. I always thought that marches, public processions and public addresses were one of the ordinary instruments of democracy and extremely useful.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intends to extend the granting of hostel parole to men serving prison sentences; and if he will make a statement.

At present I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharples) on 10th December.

Will the Minister bear in mind the need for a reform? Is the hon. Lady aware that I am sorry that she has not been able to make a fuller statement on this matter and that this is a very real problem? Will she bear in mind that I have experience of this problem in my constituency and that some action is necessary now?

Action is taking place now, as the hon. Gentleman will realise if he reads the Answer which I gave on 10th December. My right hon. and learned Friend is very keen to extend the hostel system, because we believe it to be a valuable means of transition from prison life to life outside. My Answer on 10th December said that three hostels are shortly to be opened at Maidstone, Bristol and Wormwood Scrubs, and others are being planned.

Cannot the hon. Lady be a little more forthcoming about this? Can she say when the three hostels are to be opened? Can she also say whether there is any plan for opening hostels in other part sof the country?

Yes, Sir. The Bristol hostel will be ready in the late summer and the other two early next year. We hope to get others open as soon as possible. We are considering opening other hostels for particular categories of prisoners.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in view of the number of alleged private detective agencies set up in recent months by undesirable persons, he will introduce legislation providing for registraton and strict control of private detectives.

I am not satisfied that legislation of this nature is required.

Is the Home Secretary aware that people are being swindled right and left by these new bogus detective agencies which are springing up and that it is causing embarrassment to genuine detective agencies, because it is bringing them into disrepute? Will he consider consulting the Commissioner of Police and the various chief constables, and perhaps the Law Society and the Bar Council, with a view to preventing this wholesale deception?

I have no information at my disposition which would support what the hon. Member has said. I will very readily consider any information he may be able to furnish to me. The information available to the police does not, at the moment, confirm that there has been a recent increase in the number of undesirable agencies.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that it would be a great advantage for the police to know not only where there were detective agencies but where security services were developing outside of police forces? Would he not agree that if they knew where they were they could at least get some mutual co-operation?

The Question put to me is whether I will introduce legislation. I cannot see any need for legislation. The question of private security organisations is a different matter and does not arise, so far as I can see, within the scope of the Question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will implement the proposals on police recruitment submitted to him by the Police Federation.

The Federation's proposals relating to pay and hours of duty are initially the concern of the Police Council for Great Britain, to which they have been referred. The remainder of the Federation's memorandum was discussed last week at a meeting of the Police Council for England and Wales under my chairmanship. It was agreed that the bodies represented on the Council should give further consideration to the matters raised with a view to further discussion.

While thanking the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him if he agrees that one of the best ways to overcome the present shortage in the police force would be by the provision of better and more modern equipment? Will he give this aspect his closest attention?

The provision of the best modern equipment has been for a considerable time a matter of close study by my Department.

Is the Home Secretary aware of the very real concern there is, I think in all parts of the House, about the subject of police recruitment? Would he give an assurance that the proposals put forward by the Police Federation will have very urgent and sympathetic consideration by him?

That was one of the objects of the meeting to which I referred. As I said, all the proposals which may be put forward will receive careful study.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation for the reform and modernisation of the law on abortion.

My right hon. and learned Friend is keeping the matter under review but he regrets that he can hold out no prospect of early Government legislation.

Does my hon. Friend recognise that the present barbarous law is held in contempt, is widely abused or ignored and very often results in very painful mutilation and death? Since several Members of the Government are on record as wanting this highly desirable reform, may I ask whether my hon. Friend would give an undertaking that the Government will provide time for treatment of this Measure in the same way as they have given time for the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill?

My right hon. and learned Friend and I recently met a deputation from the Abortion Law Reform Association, which put to us all the matters which have just been put to me by my hon. Friend. I agree that this is a very important subject which arouses a great deal of interest. I repeat, everything put to us by the Abortion Law Reform Association is being studied most carefully, but I could not, of course, say anything about whether or not, or when, a Bill would be introduced.

Does the Minister realise that the proposals put forward by the Abortion Law Reform Association were extremely moderate and would have a great welcome from both sides of the House?

Yes, Sir. I realise that there is support for this on both sides of the House, and this is one of the things which we will take into consideration when looking at all the important problems which were put to us by this deputation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is satisfied that the police authorities are the proper body to interview and examine applicants for naturalisation in proficiency in English language; and whether he will make a statement.

The police are asked to interview all applicants for naturalisation in order to report on the applicant's ability to meet the statutory requirements, one of which is sufficient knowledge of the English language. My right hon. Friend does not think it necessary or desirable to set up special machinery to deal with this particular requirement.

Would the Joint Under-Secretary agree that in some cases this is not the most suitable way of doing it? Is he aware that I have sent to his Department details of an example which occurred in my constituency—a case in which grief was caused owing to the refusal to grant a permit because of lack of proficiency in the English language? Would he consider setting up a team or panel of educational experts to undertake these activities, which would not be very onerous?

The hon. Gentleman came to see me about this matter. We have considered his suggestions very carefully. In all doubtful cases, the police give a detailed report of the applicant's knowledge of English, but it is the Home Office which ultimately decides. It is felt that the present system is the best one.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to enable women trainers of horses to obtain a licence so that in the future they will be able to racehorses under their own names instead of, as at present, under that of a relative or employee.

No.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a very disappointing reply, especially since we have just been told by his right hon. and learned Friend that this is the greatest democracy in the world? I understood that the present Government were against discrimination of any kind. If so, how do they justify that women can be racehorse owners, can lead in winning racehorses, and can—

Jockeys?

—they can be jockeys in certain races, and can train horses, but cannot have licences in their own names? Surely there is a discrimination against women there?

My right hon. and learned Friend and I would be the last to frustrate the legitimate ambitions of women, but the House should know that the regulation of horse racing is in the hands of the recently constituted Turf Authority together with the Jockey Club and the National Hunt Committee. My right hon. and learned Friend has no responsibility in this matter, so the hon. Lady should try elsewhere.

Notwithstanding the attempt by my hon. Friend to evade responsibility, does he not realise that this is an outmoded form of discrimination, especially having regard to the distinguished women trainers, women jockeys and huntswomen? Will he take steps to modernise the position?

My hon. and learned Friend may be well assured that I am as aware as is my right hon. and learned Friend of the great part women play in our national life. We should like to help them but, as I said, this matter is riot really our responsibility.

In view of the very unsatisfactory reply from the Minister, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will seek to amend the Adoption Agencies Regulations, 1959, so as to permit, with the necessary safeguards, the disclosure of confidential information to properly accredited research workers.

Yes.

I thank the Minister of State for that reply. Can she say when she intends to do this?

It will be fairly soon. Amendments will be needed not only to the Adoption Agencies Regulations but also to the rules governing the procedure for making adoption orders in the courts. A set of miscellaneous amendments to the rules governing adoption agencies and the procedure for making adoption orders in juvenile courts is now being prepared by my Department and will soon he ready for discussion with interested organisations.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will state the numbers of police in England and Wales in 1938 and 1964; and what proportions were employed in the road traffic departments.

The number of police officers in England and Wales on 29th September, 1938, was 60,010 and on 30th September, 1964, was 80,070. Comparable figures of the numbers employed in road traffic departments are not available.

I thank the Joint Under-Secretary for that Answer. As the number of vehicles has increased from 3 million to 12 million since 1938, would it not be now right to have an intensive campaign for recruiting police? Would he also consider allowing wardens to be used more for traffic duties, and will he also consider the important question of making small units in all counties, on the same lines as the new London Central Traffic Division, which seems to have got off to such a good start?

The hon. Gentleman's suggestions will be considered seriously by my right hon. and learned Friend. The number of traffic wardens has grown at the rate of about 250 a year. At the end of 1964 they totalled 1,032 and we are aware of the advantages of using them more to relieve the police of some of their duties.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department by what authority a 15–year-old boy was charged by the Metropolitan Police with using a vehicle on the road while under age and uninsured when he was returning a stolen vehicle to a police station.

The charges referred to were laid under Sections 5, 97(1) and 201 of the Road Traffic Act, 1960.

Is it not clear that if proper inquiries had been made this prosecution would never have been brought? I am not concerned with this individual case, but with the general principle. Will the hon. Gentleman take steps to see that in cases where the police have brought prosecutions of this kind and the person concerned has been convicted, even though, had the police known the full facts, they would not have prosecuted, a free pardon is given to that person?

This is a difficult case. The lad was returning the scooter, so he said, which he had discovered, but was well off the route he should have been taking if he was returning it to the police station, and the police felt that there was a case to take to court. Although the boy was dismissed on the charge of stealing the vehicle, he was, of course, fined on the other charges.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the fact that no action or criminal proceedings will now be taken against the police officers involved in the Machent Inquiry relating to alleged irregularities by Birmingham police officers, if he will now publish the results of the inquiry together with the evidence there tendered; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he proposes to take following his discussion with representatives of the organisation Justice on the subject of the Machent Report; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now considered the representations made to him by Justice concerning the publication of the Machent Report; what steps he now proposes to take to reassure the people of Birmingham that the Birmingham Police were rightly acquitted of the charges made against them; and if he will now reconsider the advisability of publishing the report.

I have almost completed my study of the very voluminous report by Superintendent Machent, and expect to be in a position to make a statement shortly. As I told the House on 3rd March, I cannot agree to the disclosure of a police report on inquiries into possible criminal offences.

Whilst I am grateful that my right hon. and learned Friend is to make a more complete statement, may I ask him to bear in mind that, as this inquiry embraces 22 convictions and as some of the people convicted are serving long terms of imprisonment but might possibly be innocent, this is a matter of public interest, and not merely one of discipline within the police force itself? If my right hon. and learned Friend is not able to publish the results of this inquiry, I hope that he will make facilities available, at any rate, for hon. Members interested to see the proceedings.

Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had better answer as far as we have got. I have no means of restraining the length of supplementary questions except by this means which, although apparently discourteous, is the best I can do.

It would be entirely premature for me to anticipate my decision by giving an answer in part. This is a very important report which covers a very wide range, and therefore it needs the most thorough study before any conclusion is announced.

Will a review be carried out of the sentences of the men still in prison, and is my right hon. and learned Friend satisfied that the police themselves should investigate cases of this nature?

I am afraid that I can only repeat the Answer I have given. The report must be thoroughly studied before any conclusions are stated.

Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman look at the facts of these cases, because I understand that some of these people were refused leave to appeal against their sentences?

The persons concerned were dealt with in the ordinary way by the courts, which came to decisions in the ordinary process of justice.

Question No. 17—Mr. Thorpe.

Where is he?

I hear one or two hon. Members ask "Where is he?" My hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe)—

Interesting as it may be, it would not be orderly to inquire.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of young first offenders between the ages of eight and 11 subsequently come before the juvenile courts charged with a second offence.

Since 1st February, 1964, no child under the age of 10 can be guilty of an offence; and the information asked for is not available for those between 10 and 11. Some figures relating to a very small sample of offenders found guilty of indictable offences and the more important non-indictable offences in the Metropolitan area in 1957 are included in Table 1 on page 43 of the Home Office publication "The Sentence of the Court".

Can the Minister of State confirm that those figures suggest that more than 50 per cent. of these youngsters appeared a second time? The purpose of my Question was to find out whether the hon. Lady had any reason to believe that circumstances were now improving in this respect.

I have no figures to show that they are improving. They simply show that some 53 per cent. of first offenders were found guilty of further offences within five years. I have no figures to show that the position is improving, but I am sure that the whole House will feel that these figures are rather disturbing, and that we ought to do everything we possibly can to see that young offenders do not come before the courts again.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether Her Majesty's Government have now completed their study of the views expressed by hon. Members on the Crathorne Report on 15th February: what conclusions they have arrived at on the revision of the laws affecting Sunday observance; and whether the necessary legislation is now being prepared.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Government propose to introduce legislation to carry out the Crathorne proposals on Sunday observance.

While I am anxious that the law on Sunday observance should be rationalised and brought into keeping with modern thought and conditions as soon as that can reasonably be done, I am not yet able to say when it may be possible to introduce legislation.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that the majority of those who spoke in the debates on this subject in both Houses of Parliament were, broadly speaking, in favour of the reforms proposed by the Crathorne Committee, and, whatever further soundings of public opinion or consultations have to be taken, will he also bear in mind that most of those were actually taken by the Crathorne Committee itself? Therefore, will he assure us that there will not be undue delay?

One of the purposes of the debate was to elicit opinions both inside the House of Commons and in the country. Quite naturally, the Government will give the most careful consideration to what was said in all parts of the House.

Can the Home Secretary say what further steps he is taking, and what is the main factor that is delaying legislation?

The steps I am taking are to ponder most carefully on the various views that are expressed, and to consider in the light of them how best the public interest may be served.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that such legislation would be widely welcomed; and that if the Government cannot see their way clear to introduce it quickly there will be a great deal of scepticism in the country that we have no intention of acting quickly in this matter?

I do not think that I can add to what I have said, namely, that I am anxious that the law on Sunday observance should be rationalised and brought into keeping with modern thought and conditions as soon as that can reasonably be done.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations have been made to him concerning alterations in regulations concerning the adoption of children; what reply he has sent; and whether he will make a statement.

A variety of representations about amending the law on adoption are made and considered from time to time. If my hon. Friend has a particular point in mind, I shall be grateful if he will let me know.

The hon. Lady has asked whether her hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, West (Mr. Hamling) has a particular point in mind. Will she bear in mind that the time allowed for inquiries by child care officers is very limited? As a result of this, and as a result of a shortage of child care officers, the inquiries are often very superficial indeed. Will she bear that in mind also?

Yes, I will certainly bear in mind that point and all the other factors which have arisen since the 1957 Act came into operation.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what action he proposes to take concerning the distribution of anti-semitic literature in the City of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, copies of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East.

My right hon. and learned Friend is keeping in mind activities of this sort in framing the provisions of the Bill, which he hopes shortly to introduce, dealing with incitement to racial hatred.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind when he is considering this matter that these leaflets, which bear the Nazi swastika and the simply vile message, "Send the Jews to the ovens", have been distributed to Jewish families in my constituency, some of whom lost relatives in the Nazi ovens in the period of the Hitlerite regime? Would she also bear in mind that these leaflets are causing considerable concern in Newcastle, because they are also being sent to the homes of people who lost relatives in the struggle to outlaw Fascism in the Second World War?

I know that the whole House finds this sort of thing offensive, as does the public. Some 60 people in Newcastle received anti-semitic leaflets through the post in the early weeks of February. The police are not aware that any have been received since, and the matter seems to have died down. It would appear better at present to let it die down.

Is my hon. Friend aware that not only in Newcastle but in Gateshead there is a considerable circulation of these very vile documents? I have sent a sample to him, as he knows. Will he continue with all speed the inquiry which I have requested?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what were the offences for which Mr. Niven Craig and Mr. K. E. Holmes were sentenced; how long were the sentences, how long has each served, and how long each has served in a prison hostel.

Craig received sentences totalling 12 years' imprisonment for shop-breaking, assault with intent to rob and possessing housebreaking implements by night. These sentences, of which he has served 4 years 3 months, began when he had served 8 years of an earlier sentence. He has been in a prison hostel since 22nd December, 1964. Holmes has been detained for a total of 9 years 8 months on a sentence of life imprisonment for rape; he was in a prison hostel for two weeks in February, 1964.

Since Craig has a long series of sentences for serious crimes and Holmes, as the hon. Lady says, has been sentenced only once, is there not a strange discrepancy in the treatment afforded to these two men? Why has Holmes's licence been withdrawn? When will it be restored?

These two cases are not similar at all. Holmes was serving a life sentence; he was let out on licence and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, he failed to comply with the terms of the licence. Craig, who was not serving a life sentence, has been continuously in prison for 12 years, which is most exceptional, except in the case of a prisoner serving a life sentence.

Could not the hon. Lady admit that Craig in fact is now for the second time on the hostel scheme? Is not this rather extraordinary, since at the moment the term of his sentence should in fact take him to about 1973?

Yes. Craig has been treated exceptionally and, as I tried to point out in the previous reply on the case, this is an exceptional case in that he has been in prison for 12 years and, as far as I am aware, there is no other prisoner in any prison in the country who has been in that number of years other than a life prisoner. Although he may have been treated exceptionally, this was a rather exceptional case.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, when considering applications from South African nationals for permits to study in this country, he will keep a record of those wishing to undergo courses in nuclear physics.

There is no system of permits for foreign students; a South African wishing to come here to study would, however, need to obtain leave to land from an immigration officer at the port of arrival. My right hon. and learned Friend is not satisfied that there are sufficient grounds for maintaining at the ports a special record of the kind suggested by my hon. Friend.

Is the Minister aware that there is a quite substantial number of South African scientists who are training in this country in nuclear physics at Harwell, the Imperial College, and other institutions? Is he not aware that we may be unwittingly helping South Africa eventually to become a nuclear Power? Is he not aware also that all of these are white South Africans and not black South Africans? Ought we not at least to keep a record of those who are here?

My right hon. and learned Friend and the Government have no reason to suppose that the Government of South Africa are likely to undertake the manufacture of nuclear weapons in the foreseeable future. There is no question of race arising here on the admissions, because our immigration officers certainly treat anybody who is able to come from South Africa on the same basis.

Would the hon. Gentleman reject this demand for racial prejudice? Will he bear in mind that it is as yet no crime to have a white face in England?

I welcome the hon. Gentleman's attitude against racial intolerance and I think it would be wiser to leave it there.

asked the Prime Minister if he will provide facilities for a small party of Members to attend as observers at a selected number of public auctions of Government surplus goods.

Yes, Sir. I suggest my hon. Friend or any other hon. Member interested makes arrangements initially with the Ministry of Defence, which has much the biggest commitment in this field.

I am grateful to the Prime Minister for that reply. I would ask him to look into what the Navy does with surplus goods, because the Written Answer to my Question of 12th March suggests that, unlike other Service and Civil Departments, the Navy does not have any surplus goods? Does this mean that Old Moore is on the staff to forecast accurate ordering, or is it taken out to sea and dumped? What happens to it?

I do not think my hon. Friend should read quite so much into this Answer. The position is that, when the Navy Department has any surplus stocks, it calls for tenders through Press advertisements and surpluses are then sold to the highest bidder. I think I am right in saying that this has been investigated over a period of years by the Public Accounts Committee.

Am I right in assuming that only a very limited number of people attend the auctions of Service property? If so, might it not be a good idea if, instead of having public auctions, the Service Departments first offered these goods for sale by public tender and then sent catalogues round to this limited number of potential purchasers asking them to make the highest bid they could?

I have said on previous occasions that we are looking yet again into the question of the disposal of surplus stores. As I have said, over a period of years the P.A.C. has looked into this question. If there is a feeling that too few people attend these auctions, at least we have now the assurance that the numbers will be increased by the attendance not only of my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Dodds) but of other hon. Members who would like to see what goes on.

asked the Prime Minister whether having regard to Great Britain's röle in East-West relations, he will arrange an early visit to Peking by himself or a Minister from the Foreign Office.

As my hon. Friend knows, my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade visited China recently. It would not be possible either for me or for a Foreign Office Minister to go at this time.

I thank the Prime Minister for his reply. Would he not agree that in any final Far Eastern solution a committed signature by China is essential? Because of this, would he not agree that Britain, with its present unique rôle in the Far Eastern crisis, could help by sending a representative to get a non-committed, un-Communist view of the attitude of Hanoi and Peking?

I think that in any final settlement of particularly the Vietnam situation, though this goes wider than Vietnam, it would be highly desirable, indeed essential, to have China committed to whatever solution is reached. However, we have a long way to go before we get to that situation. At the moment, one of the difficulties is getting a line out to Hanoi and to Peking. But I do not want to say anything about that this afternoon.

Would not the Prime Minister agree that the quickest way to reach a peaceful solution in the difficult situation in the Far East is to stand united with our allies and not to try to kick the ball publicly into our own goal, as some Government supporters are doing?

I have said on a number of occasions that this situation is a bit too serious for that kind of comment. I hope that the whole House will realise, particularly since we now have to carry the whole burden of what should be the duty of the combined co-chairmen, that we have a very difficult röle to fulfil and neither that statement nor weekend speeches about "craven Members of Parliament" will help.

As the Prime Minister has mentioned "craven Members of Parliament", will he allow me to say what I meant? The words I used were applied to those members of the Socialist Party, either in this House or outside, who are willing to shelter under the nuclear umbrella of the United States but whenever the United States stands between aggression and the free world are ready to stab them in the back.

While I personally am delighted to see the right hon. Gentleman in his place this afternoon—and we are all united on that on this side of the House—I would just say this to the right hon. Gentleman: that all of us are anxious to find a settlement of the Vietnam situation. The right hon. Gentleman and many of his hon. Friends were only too ready to stab the United States in the back when the party opposite were breaking the rule of law over Suez a few years ago.

Will the Prime Minister remember that it was I who signed—[Hon. MEMBERS: "Munich."]—and led a British delegation at the successful conclusion—[HON. MEMBERS: "Munich."]—of the Laos negotiations?

"Munich."

Order. I know that the House desires to get through more Questions, but if it thinks that repetitive interruption assists in the matter I would respectfully disagree.

Would the Prime Minister recall that I led the British team at the successful negotiations when we were using British diplomacy to come to an honourable settlement of the Laos negotiations, and will the right hon. Gentleman get together with the Russian co-chairman and our American allies to sec whether this cannot be repeated?

Yes, Sir, and we are using British diplomacy to get a solution of a very difficult situation to- day and I hope that we shall have the help of the right hon. Gentleman in this matter. I hope also that we shall have the help of the right hon. Member for Enfield, West (Mr. Iain Macleod), if the Leader of the Opposition is not too craven to put him in his place.

Mr. Zilliacus, Question No. 3.

rose—

Order. My voice evidently does not penetrate. Mr. Zilliacus.

asked the Prime Minister whether, on his visit to Paris, he will propose to President de Gaulle that there should be Anglo-French discussions on how to co-ordinate the policies of the two countries and act jointly on such issues as German participation in the control of nuclear weapons, recognition of Germany's existing frontier, an Anglo-Franco-Soviet initiative to convene a Vietnam peace conference and the neutralisation of South-East Asia.

My talks with General de Gaulle will, of course, be confidential. But on the first and second parts of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to my replies to his Questions on 16th and 23rd March.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that France occupies a key position in Europe and that it would be worth while trying to reach agreement with President de Gaulle on the basis of policies to which Labour was committed before the election rather than failing to reach agreement by abandoning those policies?

Yes, France occupies a very central röle in Europe and so, may I say, does this country. I do not remember, however, that in our policy, whether in the manifesto or elsewhere, we were going to seek a joint Anglo-French declaration on this question.

Quite apart from the successful delegations with which the Leader of the Opposition was associated in 1938, may I ask whether, if my right hon. Friend accepts the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Zilliacus), he will take steps to protect himself from any accusation by the Spectator that he is thereby compromising his political integrity?

I disregard anything said in the Spectator as much as I do anything said by its editor.

asked the Prime Minister, in the light of British co-chairmanship of the Geneva Conference, if he will make a statement on the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards Franco-Soviet mediation in Vietnam.

I have seen reports of consultations on Vietnam between the French and Soviet Governments but I have not seen that these have yet led to any specific proposals. Indeed, Mr. Gromyko made it clear, in his response to our own ideas and when he was in London, that the Soviet Government were not yet ready to co-operate in constructive measures to promote a negotiated settlement. Our own policy remains to continue contact and consultation with those most involved in an effort to discover whether there might be a possible basis for a negotiated settlement.

I thank the Prime Minister for that Answer. May I also congratulate him and the Foreign Secretary, whom I am glad to see back from Washington, on very firm support of American policy in Vietnam? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the great danger in Vietnam is that the situation could get out of control so that events are in charge of policies instead of the other way round?

Speech.

Order. Those sound like matters of opinion and argument. Perhaps the Prime Minister would be good enough to answer the supplementary question as far as we have got.

I am aware of the three points raised. First, I should like to thank the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) for what he has said about my right hon. Friend's mission to Washington. I think that the whole House will endorse all that my right hon. Friend said there, not only what the hon. Member has drawn attention to but also his frank statement about the necessity to consult us and other allies and the world in general about actions to be taken. I think that my right hon. Friend's words have been very valuable and that we all endorse them.

Will the Prime Minister confirm that the Foreign Secretary's statement yesterday that Britain wholly supports American action in Vietnam is the policy of Her Majesty's Government? Will he also confirm that this statement had no reservations at all?

I have said a number of times in this House, and my right hon. Friend repeated it yesterday, that we fully support the action of the United States in resisting aggression in Vietnam, but my right hon. Friend said the other day, and I hope that he was speaking for the whole House, that we had certain reservations which he frankly expressed—and he made this very clear —on one particular action. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman equally supports what my right hon. Friend said on Tuesday as well as what he said on Wednesday.

On Britain's mediatory role in Vietnam, can my right hon. Friend say whether, in the light of fresh revelations in the Press today of the increasing use of appalling, inhuman methods of warfare by American forces in South Vietnam and by the military junta in Saigon, he continues to support American military policy in South Vietnam?

As I made clear on Tuesday, all war is horrible, and some pretty horrible weapons are being used that no one on either side of the House will welcome or want to see continuing to be used. But I do not take the same myopic view of the atrocities or of the horror weapons and methods used in Vietnam which is taken by my hon. Friend. There are some extremely serious things being done on the other side in Vietnam, and this is why we want to stop all the fighting and all the use of all the weapons.

Will the prime Minister make clear that those who express some reservations about the policy of the Americans in Vietnam are not necessarily anti-American? Very grave reservations are expressed continually in responsible quarters in America itself. Will the Prime Minister agree that the danger we run is that we may drive the Russians back into the worst attitudes of the cold war if we are not very careful and allow he situation to reach a condition in which there is no end, and will he take it that there is a widespread desire that the conflict should end in a politically negotiated settlement and that, however necessary it may he to resist aggression, in the end force will not settle it?

I have said a number of times that all of us in the country and in the House want to see a settlement, though we may have different views about it. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that one of the purposes of an alliance and friendship is having the ability to speak frankly to one another—agreeing on the basic issues, but being free to speak. I expressed the view on Tuesday that anything to he said on this should be said preferably in private rather than in any sort of public argument. I entirely agree with what the right hon. Gentleman said about that. The only people I am not clear about in that respect are certain Members of the Opposition Front Bench who, apparently, do not seem to have any of the thoughts which have been expressed either by the right hon. Gentleman or by other hon. Members.

Of course, everybody in all parts of the House wants to see a political settlement of this matter. All I ask the Prime Minister now is this. Although we quite understand that there are certain things which cannot be said in public, will he arrange that, when the Foreign Secretary speaks next week or if he himself takes part in the debate, we shall be told as much as the Government can possibly say about their negotiatiations with Mr. Gromyko and their talks in the United States?

We shall certainly do that. I made a short reference to these matters on Tuesday in answer to Questions. I agree with hon. Members who worry about the length of some answers and some questions, and it is not always possible to say very fully at Question Time what one wants to say on this. I hope that, when the debate takes place on Vietnam, both my right hon. Friend and I myself will be able to give as clear a picture to the House as is possible on both the Gromyko talks and the other aspects.