asked the Minister of Labour how many firms discriminating against the employment of people on grounds of race, colour or creed, have been consulted by the managers and staffs of his Department's employment offices with a view to persuading them to drop this practice; and how many firms have been struck off employment offices' registers for failing to end such discrimination.

Such consultations have been going on informally over many years as needs arises. No record of the number of firms concerned has been kept. So far there has been no cause to deny our placing services to any firm because of its prejudice in such matters, though a few cases are still under discussion.

While thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask, in view of previous questionings in the House on this matter, if it not a matter for regret that no record of this kind of thing is being maintained? Is is not accepted that there is in fact discriminatory practice in a number of places of employment in this country? If we are to do something about it through the agency of a public service such as the employment exchanges, a record should be maintained and evaluated so that right policies may be pursued. Does my right hon. Friend accept——

Order. I think we had better have the question answered so far as the hon. Member has gone.

I think that my hon. Friend does not make the distinction which is very necessary in this matter. That is the distinction between employers who may have personal prejudices of this sort, and employers who have difficulties which they cannot overcome because of the feelings of their workers or their customers. There may be other reasons unconnected with prejudice—lack of right qualifications for the job, for example, In cases of this sort it might help nobody if we withheld our services. We are aiming to find out what the real root of the trouble is, and, if it is the employer himself, to persuade him to withdraw discriminatory conditions. This approach is showing results, but we will not help an employer who turns out to be intransigent.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in any event, in matters of this kind conciliation is a better approach that importation of the criminal law?

I agree. What we must attempt to do is to remove the attitudes and not to place the whole of the odium on the employers.

Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that employers are not entitled to use the machinery of the State for the purpose—for whatever reason—of practising or putting into effect in any form religious or racial discrimination?

I think that my hon. Friend is quite right when he says that there must be no discrimination, but the difficulty at our exchanges is to come to the root of the problem and to find whether it is the employer to blame. When he seeks to give indications to the exchange of what he wants or does not want, he is very often powerless to do any other because of the attitude either of the employees or customers.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether it has been necessary to invoke the new procedures which I instituted last year to bring up to Ministerial level any cases of real difficulty? Is that procedure working as arranged?

Yes, indeed. As I indicated, there are a few cases under discussion. I would not hesitate to do what the right hon. Member suggested it we cannot get it right.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the subject on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Labour how many men were unemployed in the Okehampton area of Devon at the end of January, 1965.

Ninety at 8th February, the date of the count of unemployed nearest to the end of January.

Will the Minister repeat that? I never heard a word.

Order. Let there be less noise, because we want to be heard the first time.

Ninety at 8th February, the date of the count of unemployed nearest to the end of January.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that due to the direct action of the Railways Board there will be well over another 100 unemployed in the very near future because of the closure of Meldon quarry? Will he state what redundancy payments these men will have and what his Ministry proposes to do to help to re-employ them?

The hon. Member is unnecessarily pessimistic about this. About 130 workers will be affected directly, and some may be offered re-employment by the new owners of the quarry. The Railways Board is investigating the possibility of new work for these men. The staff of the employment exchange are also doing what they can.

asked the Minister of Labour what discussions have taken place between his Department and representatives of the printing industry on apprenticeship and training.

My predecessor had talks with both sides of the newspaper industry following the publication in 1962 of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Press; apprenticeship and training were amongst the subjects covered. In 1963 during the preparation and passage of the Industrial Training Bill my officers had discussions with both sides of the printing industry. I shall be giving consideration in due course to the question of implementing the Industrial Training Act in the printing industry.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the printing industry covers a much wider field than newspapers? Is he aware that some people who are concerned with teaching apprentices in this industry are of the opinion that the present apprenticeship is completely old-fashioned?

Indeed, that is why steps are being taken to try to bring both sides of industry together, both in the national newspaper part of the industry and also the other part of the industry where a review is now being made of the deficiencies of manpower.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the newspaper industry plays very little part in apprenticeship and training and that it is the other part of the printing industry that undertakes that? Would the right hon. Gentleman say that the existing quota system is quite unrelated to the needs of the times, and will he take some early action to get rid of it?

Yes, indeed. I would agree with the first part of that supplementary question and say that we are doing all we can.

Will my right hon. Friend get away from the idea that newspapers are the be-all and end-all of the printing industry? Is he aware that 13 unions are associated with the Printing and Kindred Trades Federation, that seven of them are craft unions and that most of them are studying their apprenticeship arrangements? May I suggest to my right hon. Friend that he might have a talk with the President of the National Graphical Association, who has some quite good ideas about the industry?

Yes, I have already had it. As I have said, the general printing and provincial newspaper industries have agreed to make a joint study of manpower and I hope that the inquiry will pay some attention to training.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to initiate a sample survey of the wages and conditions of service of old age pensioners working in industrial and commercial concerns.

A survey has already been undertaken into some aspects of this question by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance, and it is hoped to publish the results in due course.

I thank my hon. Friend for that very acceptable reply. May I point out that there is growing concern in the country that old people should be used to do a full-time job for a part-time salary? May we hope that he will use his influence to stop this practice?

When will the report be published?

That is a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance. I understand that the analysis of the data has not yet been completed but it is hoped to have it published before very long.

asked the Minister of Labour what instructions have been given to the Government Actuary as to the contribution to be payable as a qualification for reundancy benefit; and what is his definition of redundancy.

No instructions have been given to the Government Actuary. Redundancy is defined in Clause 1(2) of the Redundancy Payments Bill which I have presented to the House.

As the Government Actuary has not been instructed, may the House assume that the estimated 4d. is a piece of wild guesswork not unrelated to that which about six months ago earned the First Secretary the ironic title of "Mr. 3 per cent."? Will the right hon. Gentleman take a realistic view of this matter and of the enormous expense likely to be incurred? In order to avoid a constant upward readjustment of the stamp, will the right hon. Gentleman take steps to see that a realistic figure of perhaps 30s. is adopted for the total joint contribution to the National Insurance stamp in future?

I should have thought that this would have been better debated on Second Reading of the Redundancy Payments Bill, but I imagine that it is obvious to the House that rates of redundancy cannot be forecast on an actuarial basis. What we have tried to do is to take account of past manpower forecasts and estimated increases in future earnings levels. The aim must be to provide income for the redundancy fund sufficient to cover outgoings for an appreciable period, but a precise estimate cannot be made in this field.

asked the Minister of Labour what consideration, in deciding to issue a voucher on account of a genuine offer of employment, he gives to the availability of accommodation for the employee and his family.

My Department has regard to the availability and suitability of accommodation in two types of case—when the offer of employment is made to a young person or when residence is an essential or customary condition of the kind of employment involved.

Would it not be advisable more broadly to consult local housing authorities before giving vouchers for employment in a locally crowded area?

We appreciate that, but the right hon. Gentleman's Question refers only to vouchers in category A. We all desire that means should be found to provide suitable accommodation for all workers, but the right hon. Gentleman asks about holders of vouchers in category A and the steps which we have taken.

On the question of vouchers being issued, are those who are coming in now wholly coming to specific jobs or are there still some coming in to look for jobs? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the First Secretary that there should be free entry of these people?

The right hon. Gentleman knows that vouchers in category C have not been issued for a long time and therefore nobody is supposed to be coming in to look for a job. He is also aware that we are having a complete review made of the voucher system.

asked the Minister of Labour how many labour vouchers have been issued to British Rail and London Transport under the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962; how many of those were granted; how many of those granted were taken up; and whether he will make a statement as to the number of vouchers which he proposes to issue for British Rail and London Transport during 1965.

Up to 26th March, 1965, about 1,500 vouchers had been issued for employment with London Transport. The number issued for employment with British Rail is not readily available but is known to be small. No statistics are available to show how many of the vouchers issued were taken up. I cannot say how many vouchers will be issued this year to individual employers.

In view of the Minister's Answer to the Question of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell)—that there are 33,000 unemployed in the North-East—will the hon. Gentleman say why it is necessary to grant any vouchers for people coming in in order to work on British Railways?

It will be well appreciated by the House and by the country that a remarkable contribution has been made to our services, particularly the National Health Service and transport, by coloured immigrants.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in the North-East the immigrant problem is negligible and that we are hardly troubled by it?

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether London Transport Executive is still actively recruiting Commonwealth immigrants? If so, would he not agree that that is inconsistent with the policy which has been put forward by the Home Secretary?

Vouchers are still being issued, but I could not say what the numbers are without notice.

asked the Minister of Labour how many labour vouchers he intends to issue under the Commonwealth Immigrants Act, 1962, during 1965; how many of them will be respectively A, B, and C vouchers; and what steps he has taken to try to avoid adding to the immigrant population in this way.

The number of vouchers to be issued will, as in the past, be determined by the Government from time to time in the light of the relevant factors; I cannot foresee how the vouchers issued will be distributed as between the various categories.

Is it not very disturbing that we cannot get the information which we require from the Ministry of Labour in order that we can form a judgment on these important immigration problems? Would the hon. Gentleman, in particular, answer the last part of my Question and say what steps he is taking to try to avoid adding to the immigrant population in this way?

I cannot give any undertaking on this. All I would say is that any issue of vouchers would add to the immigrant population.

Is not this an extraordinarily unsatisfactory statement from the Government? Surely there must be some policy on this grave and serious problem. I appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary may not know it now, but could the Minister, at some early and convenient moment, try to make a statement about the Government's policy on the issue of these vouchers, because this matter is causing grave concern to many millions of our fellow countrymen?

As my right hon. Friend has indicated, the review of the voucher scheme is well under way and these matters will be tied up with the conclusions from the review.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to extend decasualisation in the docks industry.

Decasualisation is one of the matters on which I asked the Committee of Inquiry under Lord Devlin to report. I shall give the matter urgent consideration when I receive their report.

When will the report be received?

I would hope next month.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will introduce legislation providing for all workers the right to trade union representation and proper safeguards against arbitrary dismissal.

I think the right of trade union representation and safeguards against arbitrary dismissal are both extremely important. I would hope that the first will be one of the subjects considered by the Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations. I am appointing a committee of my National Joint Advisory Council to study the second. It would not, therefore, be appropriate to introduce legislation now.

On all important questions of this character have we to wait for the Royal Commission's Report, or will some be dealt with one by one?

I hope that the Royal Commission will give consideration to this matter, which is of great importance.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us any idea how long the Royal Commission will take to do its work?

That is a matter for the Commission.

asked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has for introducing compulsory employers' liability insurance.

The hon. Member has just sent me the correspondence leading up to his Question. I would like to have more time to go into the important and difficult issues which arise. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

May I thank the Minister for his reply? In coming to a decision, will he bear in mind that there are many small firms which are not insured for this liability and one has cases where the liability is admitted but the firm is unable to pay the compensation, with the result that the employee is left in an extremely difficult position?

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking to encourage workers to use the services of the employment exchanges in competition with other agencies.

Various steps are being taken to improve the efficiency of the service. These include experiments in organisation, a review of staff training, and the addition of some further staff. We are also hoping to make the premises more attractive.

Does the Minister feel that his services are as efficient as those of other agencies and can cover the work which other agencies do?

Yes, Sir, I do. We will improve them and I think they will be far better than the agencies.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the last Labour Government, in 1950, I think it was, announced their intention to introduce legislation to control fee-charging employment agencies but lost office before being able to do so, and the Tory Government, for 13 years, although they announced their intention to introduce legislation from time to time, did not do so? Will he now introduce legislation to control the operations of fee-charging employment agencies, as recommended by the I.L.O. Convention No. 49, and as carried out by a large number of other countries, including all the Western European countries?

I have outlined the steps we are taking. I am not sure what the Leader of the House would say if I even mentioned the words "further legislation".

Has any further progress been made with the suggestion that we might arrange for payments of unemployment benefit to be made by postal draft so as to free the exchanges for more positive work?

If I may just comment on that point, one experiment which is to start shortly provides for the unemployed to attend at the exchange once a week only and to receive their benefit through the post. Another involves the grouping of several employment exchanges under an area manager in order to improve co-ordination. We are also studying, with the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance, the possibility of using computer techniques for the calculation and payment of unemployment benefit.

asked the Minister of Labour what consideration he has given to representations made to him on behalf of work people in the building industry by the hon. Member for Walton, on the effects of the Contracts of Employment Act, 1964; and what changes in the Act he now contemplates.

Most strikes, including official strikes, are probably in breach of the workers' contracts of employment. The Redundancy Payments Bill includes a provision to amend the Contracts of Employment Act so that strikes in breach of contract no longer break the period of continuous employment on which a worker's rights to notice depend.

Will my hon. Friend take that this will be very welcome in the building industry and, I am sure, in other industries, because the problem has caused a great deal of difficulty among building operatives and the Clause now to be introduced will create greater harmony in the building industry?

I thank my hon. Friend for what he says, but I ought to make it clear that we had this question under consideration before receiving the representations from workers in the building industry to which he drew our attention.

Has any harm come to employees through the operation of the Contracts of Employment Act in cases of this kind, or is this merely a preventive measure which it is proposed to introduce by the Bill?

There is considerable apprehension among workers at present.

Will the new Clause apply to unofficial as well as to official strikes?

Yes. I made that clear in my original Answer.

asked the Minister of Labour when he will make available the draft regulations providing for the free issue of safety boots to foundry workers who are at risk from transporting or pouring molten metal.

Work is well advanced on the preparation of a preliminary draft of regulations providing for protective footwear in foundries, and my right hon. Friend hopes to circulate the draft to interested organisations this summer.

Will my hon. Friend speed things up in view of the excessive number of foundry accidents? Does not the Ministry's own survey show that 14 per cent. of all foundry injuries would be prevented if this were done?

I share my hon. Friend's concern, but these regulations must inevitably take a considerable time. We shall do all we can to speed up the issue of the draft regulations.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will revise the monthly statistics issued by his Department so as to show all vacancies for technicians and other skilled craftsmen in each area and the average weekly earnings of such technicians and craftsmen in employment in each area.

No, Sir. To provide monthly occupational data for unfilled vacancies and average weekly earnings for local areas would involve an undue expenditure of public funds.

As the figures which are published relate only to vacancies reported from the employment exchanges and there is considerable evidence that there are numbers of vacancies not so reported, will the hon. Gentleman consider undertaking some form of statistical sample in order to try to produce figures on a more accurate and meaningful basis?

I cannot give a specific undertaking to the hon. Gentleman, but I shall certainly look into the matter.

asked the Minister of Labour how many vacancies have been filled by those on the Professional and Executive Register in the last year for which figures are available.

7,169 between 12th March, 1964, and 3rd March, 1965.

Has the Minister noticed that the many advertised posts for skilled professional men are generally restricted to people under 40 or 45 years of age? What publicity is he giving to the benefits which can come from this register so that employers may use it more than at present?

This is a separate problem. The Ministry has for some time been looking into the problem of the employment of the over-40s. I hope that employers will realise that the Professional and Executive Register can provide a very good service indeed. It is already doing so—it is expanding the number of people with whom it deals—for people qualified as executives or technologists, whatever their age.

asked the Minister of Labour what action he is taking to eliminate restrictive practices in the printing industry.

The most effective action on this can be taken by the employers in consultation with the trade unions, but I shall not neglect any chance of encouraging them to make progress.

Will the Minister adopt a slightly more urgent approach to this situation which is having an adverse effect on the balance of payments? Does he realise, for instance, that at least one major printing contract worth £2 million annually is undertaken in Germany because a British firm which could do it is prevented from recruiting the 16 men who could undertake the work, and Italian printers also are winning a larger share of our market? Will he intervene more directly in this situation?

I have already said that steps have been taken. The national newspaper industry has set up its joint board and the other section of the industry is undertaking a joint study of manpower. I shall do all I can to hasten their conclusions.

Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that what the Tories call restrictive practices are very often protective practices which we have had to adopt in years gone by, but will he consult the unions concerned as this question is rather unfortunately timed, coming at a moment when negotiations are taking place on the issues of demarcation and other matters within the printing industry?

I understand the point of my hon. Friend's remark, and that is why I should be reluctant to say too much at this stage.

Is not the printing industry more riddled with restrictive or protective practices than almost any other industry, and does the Minister intend to wait for both sides to sort things out for themselves when he knows perfectly well that printing orders are being lost every month to the Continent? Will he address himself, to start with, to some of the 22 points contained in the 1959 memorandum of the Federation of Master Printers about which very little has been done on both sides of the industry?

I should not care to reflect upon which section of our society is more hag-ridden by restrictive practices. The hon. Gentleman had better look at his own.

Will the Minister look at the splendid example of the Pitman works at Belfast where, by agreement with both sides, training for as little as 18 months has produced a very fine workshop printing some of the most difficult and elaborate work in the world, with great export success? Does not that show what can be done if both sides of the industry are prepared to get down to it?

I agree that an awful lot could be done. It is a matter of persuading both sides of the industry to get down to the job.

asked the Minister of Labour what trade union representations he has received concerning wage negotiating procedure in relation to employees at Buckingham Palace; and what steps he intends to take in regard to the present procedure.

I have received representations from the Civil Service union and I am having discussions with the union and with officers of the Royal Household.

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that he will seek to modernise the antiquated procedure which now obtains, and if I put a Question down in a fortnight or three weeks, will he be able to give a progress report?

As an old negotiator, I am asked to give undertakings immediately, here and now, and then to give a progress report in a fortnight. No, I could not do that. All I can say is that the negotiations are going very well indeed, and I think that my hon. Friend will be quite happy with the outcome.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons were unemployed in each of the employment exchange areas of Consett and Stanley in the county of Durham at the last convenient date; and what percentage of the total insurable population in each of the two areas the figures represent.

508 at Consett and 774 at Stanley on 8th March. The rate of unemployment at Consett was 2·6 per cent. A separate percentage rate cannot be quoted for the area of the Stanley Employment Exchange which forms a travel-to-work area with that of Lanchester. The rate for the combined area was 4·6 per cent.

I thank my hon. Friend for that information, but has he noted that the figures which he has just given for the Stanley area are about three times greater than the national average and have been so for a considerable time? Is he aware that there is much apprehension about future employment in both the Consett and Stanley areas, and will he take it that, if he and his right hon. Friend can do anything at all to induce the siting of newer industries in both areas, their efforts will be greatly appreciated by all concerned?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern. His last point about the resiting of additional industrial activity in the area is, of course, a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

asked the Minister of Labour why the revised Woodworking Machinery Regulations, requested in March, 1963, and stated to be under consideration in May, 1963, have not yet been published.

The revision of the 1922 Woodworking Machinery Regulations is a substantial task and has raised a number of difficult problems which have delayed the circulation of a preliminary draft to interested organisations. However, a considerable amount of work has been done, and my right hon. Friend hopes to circulate a draft later this year.

Even so, is not three years intolerably long, particularly in view of the Minister's declared wish to see technological advance?

I do not think that the period is quite as long as three years. I agree that a very long time has elapsed, but I would point out that this is a major revision of regulations, and as such is a very big task indeed. It goes much further than the request of the unions, which wanted the regulations with regard to health and welfare dealt with. This revision also goes very far in the direction of laying down further safeguards against very dangerous machinery.

Would not my hon. Friend agree to bring in some interim report, particularly in relation to the actual question of the safety of woodworking machinery, which causes a great deal of concern among the operatives in the industry?

The revision of these regulations has thrown up many complex legal and technical problems. I share my hon. Friend's concern, and he may be assured that the draft regulations will be issued as early as possible.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he will take to procure the removal of maximum age limits imposed by trade unions for entry into apprenticeship.

The age of entry to apprenticeship is normally fixed by agreement between employers' associations and trade unions. Many apprenticeship schemes make some provision for late entrants. My Department has consistently urged that rigid age limits should be avoided, and I am glad to say that there is evidence of a more flexible attitude on both sides of industry on this subject.

Does the Minister agree that some wage agreements do not make provision for late entry, and would he explicitly say that that is a very bad thing, which prevents someone later in life starting in that skill and strikes particularly, of course, at the Service man when he comes out of the Forces? Will he not leave this to both sides of industry, but take some initiative himself?

I would agree that the greatest degree of flexibility is desirable. That is why the right hon. Member for Grantham (Mr. Godber) made it one of the provisions of the industrial training boards that they should make recommendations as to the age of entry into training. I am hoping that the boards, almost as a matter of priority, will give us their forward-looking views on this matter.

asked the Minister of Labour what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government towards the practice of making trade union membership a condition of entry into unskilled or semi-skilled employment.

The position is that this is a matter for decision by the employer concerned.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman go further, and say that he regards it as undesirable that a closed shop should be operated in any undertaking? Will he be a little forthcoming—and not rest behind any alleged, and non-existent, restrictive practices in the law—and say that he regards it as highly regrettable that the Co-operative movement should operate a closed shop in many of its aspects?

The hon. Gentleman and I seem to have been discussing this subject for the last 12 years, but it has been for only three weeks. Nevertheless, we have had all this before. It is a great pity that when the hon. Gentleman reflects on industrial matters he does not read the documents produced by his own Central Office. I read with great interest last night—I wish that I had discovered it a fortnight ago—a document issued by the Conservative Central Office, which said:

"In these matters of industrial relations their review of unofficial strikes serves to emphasise that the problem of industrial relations is not one which can be settled by Acts of Parliament or dictatorial intervention by Ministers but is essentially a human problem."

"Read it all."

That is what the Conservative Central Office said.

Will the Minister bear in mind that I was not inviting him to make any dictatorial intervention? We do not seek to encourage the Front Bench opposite to do that, but to stop it. I was asking him to make a persuasive intervention, in the interests of personal freedom, with his hon. Friends who represent the Co-operative movement in this House.

Whatever persuasive efforts I might make or have made are always blurred by what the hon. Member has to say about them.

Is my right hon. Friend aware, that, although these practices may take place in connection with entry into skilled and semi-skilled employment, for hon. and right hon. Members opposite to talk about conditions of entry when their benches represent professions which allow no one else to practise in any circumstance at all, anywhere, is an impertinence?

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to bring about the end of restrictive practices operated by the shipbuilding unions, which artificially limit the age of entry to certain crafts.

The age of entry to apprenticeship is fixed by voluntary agreement between the Shipbuilding Employers' Federation and the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions. It is for the parties to the agreement to consider whether any changes are necessary. I hope that they will be prepared to relax age restrictions, particularly for boys who have continued full-time education beyond the normal school leaving age.

Does the Minister remember that he signed the Declaration of Intent on Productivity, Prices and Incomes—[Hon. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—saying that the Government would develop policies designed to get rid of restrictive practices, and does not his Answer show very half-hearted attitude?

Will my right hon. Friend do all he can to help trade unions in their efforts to ensure their own greater security of employment as being probably the best way to get rid of any restrictive practices?

Would the Minister agree that artificially contrived scarcity of labour is one of the surest ways of making British industry uncompetitive?

I agree.

asked the Minister of Labour what progress has been made in the implementation of the provisions of the Industrial Training Act with particular reference to increased training facilities for girls.

Five industrial training boards have been established covering more than a quarter of the working population. The Training Board for the Wool Industry—in which half the employees are women and girls—intends to pay grants this year to employers providing training in a wide range of occupations. The advice of the Commercial and Clerical Training Committee of the Central Training Council, which is considering the training of office workers, will in due course be made available to boards.

I thank my hon. Friend for giving that information, but would remind him that last year, of all girls leaving school, only 5·7 per cent. had apprenticeships, and most of those were in hairdressing. Is he aware that of all our technologists and engineers, only 0·2 per cent. are women? Does he not agree, therefore, that not only must we encourage and expand the training facilities, but that we need to do a great deal to overcome female prejudice against industry, science and technology in general? Would my hon. Friend undertake to consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science to see whether the two Departments could co-operate in this matter?

As my hon. Friend will be aware, an inter-Departmental committee of the Ministry of Labour and the Department for Education and Science has already been set up to deal with this specific point, and the training boards will be examining the position with regard to women employees as it comes within their particular scope.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the country is desperately short of skilled manpower, that our population is not growing at the rate we need, and that, since we are restricting immigration, it is vital that we tap our female resources of labour, increase their skills, and give them an opportunity for training?

Without going into too much detail about exactly what we should do with our female labour, it is the Government's intention to use the Industrial Training Act to meet many of the deficiencies in the provision of skilled manpower that undoubtedly exist.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he proposes to take to provide greater facilities for sheltered employment for those who have recovered from mental illness but are not able to return to their former employment.

Provision for former mental patients who are not capable of working in ordinary industry can normally best be made as part of the provision of sheltered employment facilities for the severely disabled in general. However, my right hon. Friend would be prepared to consider on its merits any request for assistance in establishing special facilities for the mentally ill.

I am grateful for that information. Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this problem is, unhappily, growing because of the pace of modern working life? Will he consider the possibility of extra assistance to firms which specialise in this type of work to encourage them to take on rather more and thereby provide increased opportunities for sheltered employment for those who have recovered from mental illness?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not give the impression—I am sure that he does not want to—that mental patients who have been treated and recover must of necessity find sheltered employment. The main thing is to get as many as possible back to ordinary employment, although that may well be different from the employment they previously held.

Will my hon. Friend follow the example of one of his predecessors and visit the Industrial Therapy Organisation in Bristol with a view to encouraging its extension throughout the country?

The Industrial Therapy Organisation is a very interesting development. It is being assisted financially by the Ministry at present and we will certainly watch its progress very carefully.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the conflicting advice given to industry and public bodies in respect of fire prevention by insurance companies and fire service prevention officers, if he will take steps to establish a uniform code of requirements and administration in this matter.

My right hon. Friend's responsibilities in relation to fire prevention under the Factories Act and the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act are primarily concerned with the protection of employees. Insurance companies are concerned with other matters including the protection of property and their requirements may therefore differ.

With due respect to my hon. Friend, I must say that that is no answer to my Question. Is not he aware that there is a conflict of interest between the conditions which the insurance companies lay down before they will insure public buildings or industrial buildings? Is he further aware that the advice from the fire prevention officers is that these conditions differ on many occasions? What does he propose to do about this conflict? Is there not some way in which the insurance companies can lay down a uniform set of requirements for public buildings?

My right hon. Friend can give advice only on matters falling within his responsibility, which is for the safety of employees. As I have said, the conditions imposed by insurance companies are mainly related to other matters. I appreciate the problem to which my hon. Friend refers and I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to what he has said.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will establish a Government training centre within the constituency of Houghton-le-Spring.

As Houghton-le-Spring is within daily travelling distance of both the Felling and the Tursdale Government Training Centres, my right hon. Friend does not propose to establish a Government training centre in the constituency. During the last 6 months 20 persons from the constituency have attended courses at the Felling and Tursdale Government Training Centres.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he bear in mind that there is continuing heavy unemployment in my constituency and the surrounding areas and that facilities for 20 people from my constituency are by no means adequate in comparison with the number who need training? Is he aware that this problem affects the whole northern region? Does he appreciate that I am fully aware that the facilities left behind by his predecessor were also inadequate?

I think that my hon. Friend has misunderstood the point of my reply. I did not say that there were facilities for only 20 people in his constituency but that only 20 persons from his constituency were taking advantage of the facilities that exist. If there were necessity for further expansion we would consider it.

asked the Minister of Labour how many men, women, boys and girls were registered as unemployed within the constituency of Houghton-le-Spring at the time of the latest count; what is the gross percentage figure; and what is the comparison with the returns of 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964.

I regret that figures are not available for the Houghton-le-Spring constituency. I will with permission circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT tables of figures for the employment exchanges within the areas of which the hon. Member's constituency falls.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that the unemployment rate in the Houghton-le-Spring area is 4 per cent.? Does not this percentage underline my earlier request for increased training facilities?

I am afraid that it is not possible to give a valid percentage rate because our statistical calculations apply to a very much larger area than my hon. Friend's constituency. However, the Government training centres cannot merely serve areas of unemployment as such. The intention is that they should serve much wider areas and these facilities exist where my hon. Friend's constituents require them.

Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary advise his hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) to vote against the Budget tonight, because it does nothing whatever to help areas like his?

Order. The Minister is under no such obligation.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is aware that the last report of the National Incomes Commission, Command Paper No. 2583, stated that the elimination of payment by results would slow wage drift; and what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government on this matter.

It is widely accepted that payment by results schemes can cause undesirable wage drift unless they are carefully worked out and periodically reviewed to take account of technological or other changes in methods of production. On the other hand, it would be wrong to condemn the system as a whole: properly used it can have beneficial effects.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, despite the initial suspicions of the trade unions, the National Incomes Commission has produced a valuable and constructive report which should help the new National Board for Prices and Incomes in its work?

I suggest that we all keep an open mind on a very complex question.

asked the Minister of Labour whether he will invite the Devlin Committee to consider the events which resulted in a ship called "Port Hobart" sailing from the Royal Group of Docks at London on 27th March, with part of her cargo of meat undischarged when dockworkers refused to unload it.

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) on 5th April.

I assume that Answer means that the hon. Gentleman intends to do nothing. Does not he think that this episode was a most deplorable advertisement for twentieth century Britain? Would not he agree that it was equally deplorable that the Ministry of Labour remained completely silent and did not condemn the episode?

As I said in my reply on 5th April, this action was deplorable. I repeat that it was deplorable. But now that the facts are known and the incident is past and over it would be a mistake to attempt to stir it up again.

Will not the hon. Gentleman agree that it was also disgraceful that lorries belonging to Low's Transport should be "blacked" because one of the firm's drivers gave evidence for the prosecution? Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the episode is indeed over and than if this firm's lorries should have occasion to go back to No. 6 Shed at King George V Dock there will be no recurrence of this lamentable episode?

I understand that the incident is over and past. Whilst I would not for a moment attempt to justify the action of these dockers, I think it would be a mistake if we did not appreciate the fact that, through the years, there has been a tendency for dockers to have spontaneous strikes on all kinds of issues. That is something which is not peculiar to dockland in the United Kingdom but applies to docks throughout the world, whether New York, Sydney or anywhere else. I hope that that factor will be borne in mind. I repeat that I in no way attempt to justify this episode but we must understand the basic factor of the incredible loyalty that these men have to each other.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that work in the docking industry is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country and that dockers will take due note of the continual attacks being made on them from the other side of the House?

I agree that the unswerving loyalty of these men, difficult though it may be for us to understand, no doubt has its traditions, as in the mining industry, based in the common hazards and the struggles they have had down the years.

As the hon. Gentleman has deplored this regrettable incident, will he give an undertaking that his Ministry will take steps to ensure that it does not happen again with possible future cargoes?

I would be deluding the House if I gave the impression that legislation or any other method could prevent men from striking spontaneously, however misguided their motive might be.

asked the Minister of Labour how many training officers have been sent by industry to approved training courses at colleges of advanced technology and technical colleges; if he is satisfied that this number is adequate to secure the successful implementation of the Industrial Training Act; and if he will make a statement.

So far, 58 training officers have been sent by industry to approved training courses at colleges of advanced technology and technical colleges. Courses will begin shortly at six further colleges. I am sure that a much greater response from industry is necessary if there are to be sufficient training officers to meet the requirements of industrial training boards, and my right hon. Friend is doing what he can to stimulate this by publicity and financial assistance and, of course, through the work of the industrial training boards.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Central Training Council is seriously concerned about this matter? Is he aware that the requirements of the industrial training boards will not be met, because of the failure of industry to provide these officers? Lastly, has he noticed the serious concern about this matter expressed in the 2nd April issue of British Industry, the organ of the Federation of British Industries and the British Employers' Confederation?

There is no doubt that it would be very valuable if we could get many more training officers trained. This is a relatively new need and one which we are taking steps to fill. My right hon. Friend is doing all he can to urge industry to face its responsibilities in this matter. The training boards are fully aware of the need for more training officers in industry and we hope that they will bring home to firms the urgency of providing properly trained staff for this work. We are increasing considerably the number of courses available for people like this.

asked the Minister of Labour how many persons are registered as unemployed, including school leavers, in the North-East at the latest convenient date.

33,840 including 208 school leavers, at 8th March.

As the figures have remained relatively high compared with the national average, has my right hon. Friend any proposals for dealing with this matter? Is he aware that for at least the last five years there has been a lot of bragging by successive Tory Governments about what they have done for the North-East? Do these figures reflect a remarkable improvement?

Yes, indeed, Sir. While I recognise that unemployment in the North-East is still relatively high, there has been a considerable improvement in this year. Unemployment fell by more than 2,000 between February and March, this year, and there are now almost 11,000 fewer unemployed than a year ago. Assistance amounting to nearly £30 million has been given under the Local Employment Acts and about 37,000 new jobs are expected to arise from new building and other developments notified to the Board of Trade. About two-thirds of those new jobs will go to males.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that his Answer conclusively shows that much of the improvement has taken place since the Labour Party came to office?

Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the facts which he has just given are a most impressive record of the results of Tory planning and Tory administration? Will he advise his right hon. Friend to read the publications of the Conservative Central Office?

All I know is that over the last six months there has been a drive which has resulted in these figures.

asked the Minister of Labour what representations he has received from the Association of Cinematograph Television and Allied Technicians regarding the conduct of Kodak Limited towards its employees; what action he has taken; and whether he will make a statement.

The General Secretary of the Association wrote to me on 8th March and one of my officers subsequently met him. I am aware of all the circumstances and I am satisfied that there is no further action which I can usefully take.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that however good Kodak Limited may be an an employer, the fact remains that no fewer than 11,000 workers in the firm are denied normal trade union representation and that this is a source of considerable disturbance not only to the workers in the firm but to the Association of Cinematograph, Television and Allied Technicians and to other people who value individual liberty to join a union of one's choice? Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this matter again?

I deplore the absence of negotiated trade union rights in Kodak.

Will the right hon. Gentleman admit that it is a fact that Kodak is such a good employer of labour that it has not been necessary for the workers to form themselves into a trade union, or to join a trade union, to represent their interests?

The best employers in this country always encourage trade union organisation.

Has my right hon Friend's attention been drawn to a recent prosecution which showed that Kodak had entered into an agreement with a prosecution witness to pay him a sum of money for giving evidence and a further sum of money if his evidence proved satisfactory? Has he considered whether this agreement ought not to be referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions to see whether it involves a conspiracy to defeat the ends of justice?

I am very grateful that that is not within the purview of the Ministry of Labour. I understand that there is to be a Question on that subject to the Attorney-General later in the week.

asked the Minister of Labour what assistance his officers will give to scientists, technologists, skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled workers made redundant following the cancellation of the TSR2 contract.

As soon as they are informed that workers are to be discharged in their areas, our local officers are ready to interview those concerned at their place of work in order to help to arrange alternative employment or any necessary training. Where appropriate, interviewing teams will include specialist officers of the Professional and Executive Register.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread fear that many of these workers will end up making plastic birdbaths or in other jobs where their special skills will not be used to the full? Will he, therefore, set up a special register so that everyone may know what happens to this important section of the community?

Having failed to face some of these problems for so long, I find it mildly revolting that hon. Members opposite now play on the fears and anxieties of these men for political ends. Generally speaking, we expect no serious difficulty, but the prospects of individuals depend on their qualifications, and, to some extent, on the area in which they live. I cannot be more specific at the moment until further information is available. Nonetheless, the Ministry is dealing with this problem very, very closely at the moment, and one can only hope that hon. Members opposite will possibly even co-operate in this problem.

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's reply was really very disgraceful in view of the Government's attitude on this matter. They alone have unnecessarily created this problem and they should take special measures to safeguard the interests of the many thousands of people involved.