asked the Minister of Technology what proportion of the work of the Atomic Energy Authority is for military purposes; and whether this proportion is increasing or decreasing.

The proportion of the work of the Authority devoted to military purposes is at present decreasing. It would not be in accordance with the customary practice to disclose the exact figure.

Has the right hon. Gentleman now had a chance to look at the general work of the Authority and the proportion of that work devoted to various things like the Central Electricity Generating Board and to satisfy himself that these resources are employed to the best advantage, particularly the scientists involved?

Yes, Sir. In a general sense, the examination has taken place and I am quite satisfied that the correct proportion of time is being devoted to appropriate work.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the results of his visits to machine tool works and his study of this field of technology.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on his plans for the building of Government factories to manufacture machine tools.

My visits to machine tool works have provided a valuable opportunity for seeing and discussing some of the problems of this industry. They form a part of the study which my Department is making of these problems and in the light of the results of this study I shall formulate whatever proposals seem suited to increase the efficiency of the industry.

In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has seen, has he abandoned the idea of State-owned machine tool industries?

Certainly not. I said that we would undertake a study and take such steps as are appropriate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that when he made his statement on computers he promised to give the House an equivalent statement on machine tools within the next few weeks? When will that be?

It is my intention to give such a statement as soon as possible. As I have said, we wish to take as much cognisance as we can of the views expressed so that we may make an appropriate report and statement.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say now when we are likely to get this statement?

It is not possible to go further at the moment than to say that I will present it as soon as the necessary information is available.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make plans for the manufacture and construction of automation machines at the Experimental Reactor Establishment at Dounreay, Scotland, in view of the demand for such machines; and if he will make a statement.

For the reason I gave my hon. and learned Friend on 24th March, it is not possible to make plans for the purpose he suggests.

Does not my right hon. Friend realise that I am suggesting that the Dounreay station should be not only an experimental station but have its scope enlarged so as to be constructive and in that way draw industry to the north-east of Scotland where it is very badly needed? This would be industry of a constructive kind in which the Germans and other nations are competing adversely with British industry.

I am aware of the intention behind my hon. and learned Friend's Question, but in a written Reply on 24th March I made it clear that it is not possible to exercise the power of the Atomic Energy Authority to take over production of this type of equipment. The legal powers do not exist whereby the Authority could do so.

asked the Minister of Technology what new science-based industries he proposes to establish during 1965.

I have at present nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 1st December to the hon. Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills).

Surely this is yet another example of Labour plans being ready to swing into operation immediately. Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that in the unlikely event of his actually doing something about this he will act largely through private enterprise?

I will give no such assurance, and I would not accept the hon. Gentleman's view that we are unlikely to act.

asked the Minister of Technology whether he will set up a training scheme for technicians on the application of computers, such as system designers and programmers.

A number of training courses in computer technology are already available, but the Department is examining with others concerned all aspects of the supply of trained computer staff, including the possible need for additional training facilities.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is necessary to encourage the further use of computers, that there is a shortage of these people and that some encouragement by the Government, probably indirect encouragement, is still necessary?

I agree that the position in which we now find ourselves is such that we are faced with certain shortages in this respect. This is exactly why the Ministry of Technology was established. We have set up an informal working group in the Ministry of Technology to deal with this subject. The number of office computers installed in Britain is expected to double in the next two years from the present number of around 800. The Government recognise the difficulty and are doing something about it. If someone had done something else about it before we did, the problem would not be so bad.

asked the Minister of Technology if the Computer Advisory Unit will be invited to consider the balance of payments implications when advising on computer requirements over the whole public sector.

The functions of the Computer Advisory Unit are limited to objective technical appraisals. Decisions on purchases remain with the procurement authorities.

Why, Sir?

The role of the unit will be to make technical proposals. We have said this on a number of occasions. This is the purpose which was agreed when the statement about computers was made. It is not designed to tell people what they should buy but only why.

Will my right hon. Friend consider using his good offices with his colleagues in the Government to get them to insert into the Government's procurement programme a condition that firms be allowed to sell certain products and services to the Government only if they have computers on their premises?

That may be desirable in some senses, but it would be very difficult to establish.

asked the Minister of Technology what proposals he has for extending public ownership in the computer, telecommunications, electronics or machine tool industries.

We are studying the problems of these industries and we shall formulate whatever proposals seem best suited to increase their efficiency.

The right hon. Gentleman has now been Minister for six months. Will he confirm that during that six months he has come across no section which he wishes to put into public ownership?

I have come across a number which I would like to bring into public ownership. That answers the question directed to me.

Can we have from the right hon. Gentleman those industries which he thinks should be brought under public ownership?

The right hon. Gentleman will recall that when the computer statement was made it was made clear from this side of the House that we should not bring in any proposals for public ownership other than by a direct approach to public ownership. We would not bring them in by subterfuge.

asked the Minister of Technology what proposals he has for the telecommunications industry; and if he will make a statement.

I have arranged for studies of this industry to be set in hand, but I am not yet ready to make any specific proposals.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that at the moment there is some confusion about where his responsibility ends and that of the Postmaster-General begins? Can he inform the House where his responsibility for telecommunications ends and that of the Postmaster-General begins?

There is no misunderstanding about where my responsibilities or those of the Postmaster-General start. There are many matters concerning technology which we shall have to discuss jointly. If the question is put differently, I can probably answer it.

Is this one of those industries which the right hon. Gentleman considers should be brought under public ownership?

Does the right hon. Gentleman mean telecommunications or the Post Office?

Telecommunications. The right hon. Gentleman has asked me a question. My question is whether he believes that the telecommunications industry ought to be brought under public ownership.

We have already said that we shall not make statements on public ownership without fully considering their implications. If they are necessary they will be brought before the House. This is not a question which needs to be answered.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps he is taking to ensure proper promotion prospects for members of the staff of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research who successfully complete sandwich courses, in view of the fact that there is a wastage of approximately one in 10.

The academic achievements of sandwich course students are taken fully into account in an annual promotion review of staff in the scientific classes and in competitions held by the Civil Service Commissioners.

Is my hon. Friend aware that when these officers return, having gained their qualifications, they return to the grades which they held before? In view of the cost to the D.S.I.R. of permitting these officers to take their courses, does he not think that they should return at higher professional or scientific grades?

I appreciate the argument behind my hon. Friend's supplementary question. This is a real problem. One is faced with the position that many members of the staff have obtained these qualifications other than by sandwich courses, and it seems unfair that preferential treatment should be given to those who have taken their qualifications by means of sandwich courses, paid for by the taxpayer, over and above those who have taken the same courses, probably in their own time.

Can the Minister of State say whether the D.S.I.R. is still in existence?

I am not a Minister of State. The question about the D.S.I.R. does not arise out of this problem. The question is whether people who have taken these courses of study by one means should be given preference over others who have taken them by other means.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will offer assistance to ensure that there is adequate representation of the British electronics industry at the International Electro-Technical Commission meetings in Tokio in September.

I am not aware of any difficulty regarding representation of the electronics industry at these meetings, but if the hon. Member has a specific point in mind and will write to me I will look into it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman at least undertake to consult the British Standards Institute on the subject of British attendance at this conference?

The answer simply is, yes. It is involved in it.

In view of the imbalance of trade between Japan and this country and our undue dependence on the export of consumer goods to that country, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind how important it is to try to increase the exports of this technological industry, and could all the documentation be printed in Japanese?

That is a very interesting suggestion, but if we were to print all documentation in the languages of the various countries to which we export, we would have a terrific task.

asked the Minister of Technology what proportion of the equipment in TSR2 comes from industry under his sponsorship.

Apart from the airframe and engines, I understand from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation that almost all major items of equipment in TSR2 come from the electronics and computer industries.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many technicians from the TSR2 project are now applying to go to South Africa to help build up the aircraft industry there? Can he say what steps he is taking to see that the development of the highly developed avionics of the TSR2 is continued in this country?

This is not a matter directly concerned with the Ministry of Technology. Other Ministries are involved. But we are taking all the steps we can to ensure that British electronics equipment is put into planes which we are having to get from abroad, which is partly the answer to the hon. Gentleman's question.

What steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to make sure that the advanced development of aircraft guidance systems and blind landing systems developed for the TSR2 will be continued now that it has been cancelled?

That is a question which should be directly addressed to the Ministry of Aviation.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the cancellation of the TSR2 was a blow to our electronics industry and that it will affect the electronics industries in certain development areas, such as Dalkeith in Scotland?

Answer.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps he takes in his Department to ensure that Parliamentary Questions put to him by hon. Members are answered on the day for which they are set down for answer; and if he is satisfied that the existing procedures are adequate.

In general, I am satisfied with the procedures in my Department for dealing with Parliamentary Questions. In one particular case in which the hon. Member was concerned, I have already sent him an explanation and my apologies.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it came to be that a Question for Written Answer on 4th March was not answered until 5th April? Can he say what purposive planning and what technological revolutions he is undertaking in his own Ministry to make sure that this does not happen again?

I find this question rather strange, as a written explanation and personal apology have already been addressed to the hon. Member concerned.

asked the Minister of Technology what progress he is making in increasing the development of new technological processes in industry in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend is concerned to promote the development and application of advanced technology in Scottish industry no less than in the rest of British industry and the plans on which he is working will contribute to this end.

Would my hon. Friend consider establishing in Scotland—say in the new town of Cumbernauld, where there is plenty of scheduled building land—a department of the National Research Development Corporation so that it could, in co-operation with Scottish industry, develop some of these new techniques?

That is something which I will willingly consider. The department intends to extend the work and facilities of the National Engineering Laboratory at East Kilbride. It has a great deal of activity under way at present in Scotland. However, we should need notice of Questions on any particular project.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps he is taking to co-operate with research associations to promote programming techniques in industry.

The industrial Operations Unit in the Department is actively encouraging Research Associations to apply modern management aids for programming industrial operations by undertaking specific studies for them and by providing training courses. At least fifteen research associations now employ staff on work of this kind.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, which reveals the tremendous dynamism which is being put into expanding and developing British industry. Will he give an assurance that the pace at which we are moving will be continued over the next four years?

I am afraid that I could not give an assurance of that nature. One of the attractive features of Socialism is that it is a process of continuous improvement.

asked the Minister of Technology what progress is being made in the studies designed to stimulate the establishment in development districts of new science-based industries.

asked the Minister of Technology what contribution the National Research Development Corporation will make towards the Government's policy of stimulating regional development, particularly in the field of technologically advanced industry.

It is one of the principal functions of the regional offices of my Department to advise on technological development in their regions. The National Research Development Corporation, which works in close touch with my regional offices, is already supporting several projects in under-employed regions. I have reminded the Corporation of the importance of keeping regional problems specially in mind. Clause 4 of the Development of Inventions Bill now before Parliament will enable the Government to consider sponsoring development projects which might contribute to regional growth but which do not meet the Corporation's normal criteria.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that, in view of the callous neglect of the previous Administration of the development districts, there should be a sense of urgency in tackling this problem? Does he further recognise that in central West Fife, in particular, there is the imminent closure of a coal mine employing more than 1,100 men and that there is no possibility of redeploying those men in the existing coal mines? Will he undertake to direct the attention of the N.R.D.C. to that area with a view to establishing a publicly-owned industry there which is science-based?

Because of the neglect in past years, we are having to take the urgent steps suggested.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask what has happened to Question No. 16?

It was answered with Question No. 2. I did look at the hon. Member, but I did not realise that he was not aware of what had happened.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear for the information of the House the degree to which the N.R.D.C. is obliged to consider wider political or semi-political questions? Is it not a fact that its main task is to investigate projects from the purely scientific angle?

Primarily from the research and development angle, yes.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is any programme in existence for basing industries of this sort in the South-West?

Not without notice. But the regions are considering the need for basing industries in all regions.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps he has taken to ensure that the British electronic industry will have the opportunity to tender for electronic equipment to be used in military aircraft purchased from the United States of America.

Responsibility for inviting tenders for aircraft equipment rests with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Aviation, in association with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, who is responsible for determining the requirements of the Services. I am in touch with both my right hon. Friends on the subject raised by the hon. Gentleman.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what success he has met with in his discussions with his two right hon. Friends? Also, can he say whether he has managed to achieve anything on behalf of the British electronics industry?

That is a series of questions which, in my opinion, should more properly be put down as separate questions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am entitled to that opinion, I assume. The electronics industry has, through its association, discussed this project with me. It has made its views known. I have represented those views to the appropriate Ministries. Obviously we shall have regard to the points which it has made.

Does the Minister realise that the electronics industry is greatly worried by the fact that many Government contracts are being placed in the United States for equipment for which there is a British equivalent in price, delivery and performance? Will he get together with his hon. and right hon. Friends to see whether a plan can be worked out for issuing a directive that British equipment shall be ordered when the price, delivery and performance are equivalent to those of American firms?

All the points which the hon. Gentleman has raised were drawn to my attention by the Electronics Engineering Association. They have been represented to the appropriate Ministries and we shall keep them in mind in discussing the question of equipment in British aircraft. There is a very considerable problem of time delay, argued by the aviation industry, as against our own times.

As the right hon. Gentleman is in charge of and is really sponsoring the electronics industry, am I right in thinking that in answer to a supplementary question earlier he said that the British electronics industry would have the right to tender for electronics equipment supplied for American aircraft?

The right hon. Gentleman is quite incorrect in assuming that that reply was given. But the British electronics industry is entitled to tender for equipment, and it does so continuously.

asked the Minister of Technology what studies he has carried out in the classification of machinery and equipment so that distinctions can be made concerning the usefulness of investment in such items.

The Department has already acquired a considerable fund of knowledge about machinery and equipment and the question of improving industrial statistics, including the question of classification, is under examination. Whether this information when available, could be used for the purpose my hon. Friend has in mind is, of course, a separate issue.

Would my hon. Friend agree that a broad classification is a necessary prelude to differentiating between the usefulness of different kinds of investments? Would he consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see what financial incentives other than tax allowances might be usefully introduced?

I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that the point which he has in mind is highly contentious. The question of fiscal incentives is for the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

asked the Minister of Technology what action he has taken to encourage the provision of more engineers, scientists and technologists.

The Committee on Manpower Resources for Science and Technology, which reports jointly to the Secretary of State for Education and Science and my right hon. Friend, is actively concerned with this matter. In addition, my right hon. Friend has commissioned a special study of recruitment to the engineering profession.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask him whether he agrees that one of the main problems in getting scientists, engineers and technologists is the slowness of informing the schools of what has been happening in these industries over the past few years? Therefore, some connection with the Department of Education and Science to get this information to the schools is a most desirable feature. Will my hon. Friend go into this matter again?

We have done more than go into it. This is largely the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Education and Science. He has set up an inter-departmental working party on this subject which is examining how to attract by publicity more able young people into technology. We are members of that working party with the Department of Education and Science.

Are the reports correct about the number of scientists and engineers who have applied for jobs in South Africa? If so, what steps is the hon. Gentleman taking to retain their services in this country?

The purpose of this Department is to ensure that there is a better future for scientists and technologists than there has been under previous Administrations.

Would my hon. Friend agree that it would help tremendously if industry made a practice of placing more engineers and scientists on the boards of management?

Will the Minister take account of the fact that scientists and technologists are stimulated above all by the atmosphere in countries like the United States, where private enterprise is the prevailing system?

The trouble with hon. Members opposite is that they—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."]

Let us do better than that. Mr. John Osborn.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the sections of the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research which have now been transferred to his Department; where they are now located; what is the respective number of civil servants involved; and if the transfer is complete.

Yes, Sir.

When will the Parliamentary Secretary be in a position to state the names of the people involved? Will he confirm that the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research no longer exists?

As I have already said in answer to the Question, we are prepared to publish the whole position.

Will the information that is published include the names of the principal officers?

That is something that we will have to consider. If the hon. Member is not satisfied with what is pub- lished, he can put down a Question and pursue the matter further.

asked the Minister of Technology how much work in medical engineering is being carried out by the research stations and research associations; how many people are involved in this work; and what is the approximate estimated cost in the current financial year.

Six small projects are in hand in the Ministry's research stations. The total cost is £15,000 and the effort involved is equivalent to three staff full-time. In the research associations the figures are £6,000 and one member of staff full-time.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the importance of this matter? No doubt he has read the proceedings of the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee in which the problems of cross-infection, air conditioning in operating theatres and biogenetics were discussed. Is this work being encouraged by the Department to bring engineers to the assistance of doctors?

To take one specific point which the hon. Member has raised, the Heating and Ventilating Research Association is at present studying air conditioning in operating theatres. To give other examples, the National Engineering Laboratory is doing a study of abrasive wear test procedures suitable for dentifrice materials, Warren Spring Laboratory is carrying out a study on the design and siting of instruments and equipment in dental surgeries, and so on. A great deal of work is being done in exactly the direction which the hon. Member suggests.

Is my hon. Friend providing sufficient support for medical electronics and biological engineering, a field that is likely to yield considerable benefits to mankind and in which Great Britain today is leading, and does he not consider that the sums which he has mentioned are paltry in relation to the problem? Will he make a statement?

I would need notice of the specific point, but in general the National Research Development Corporation is always prepared to look at problems of this kind.

asked the Minister of Technology if the Technical Advisory Unit will make recommendations on the desired level of computer utilisation when considering applications from Government Departments.

The Technical Support Unit of the Computer Advisory Service will make objective technical appraisals of applications for computers by Government Departments. My Department will also be ready to give any other general advice on computer proposals. The final decisions on the extent of use of computers must, how- ever, rest with the individual user Departments in consultation as necessary with the Treasury.

Can the Minister confirm that computers in Government service are allowed to work only two shifts out of a possible three? What is the reason for this under-utilisation of a valuable investment?

There is an agreement with the National Staff Side negotiating committee governing the time when these computers are used.

Will the Unit look at semi-Government organisations controlled by the Treasury, such as the Trustee Savings Banks?

The Unit will look at anything that it is asked to look at, provided there is an understanding that it is a Government unit.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman two questions? First, does he agree that the effectiveness of a computer depends upon its being employed as far as possible for 24 hours a day, with the exception of a small time for maintenance, and that to under-employ computers is criminal if we are seeking to modernise the country? Secondly, is it obligatory that all Government Departments should seek the Minister's advice before ordering equipment, and are British computer firms given a chance to tender for Government orders?

It is, of course, desirable that computers should be used to the maximum, but whether their use is required for 24 hours a day is a matter which is determined in the light of the experience of the Department which is using them. There are many computers in British industry where efficiency is the keynote which are not used 24 hours a day. In reply to the second question, yes, it is obligatory for Government Departments to seek advice from the Technical Advisory Unit.

May I press the Minister to say——

On a point of order. Is it not a fact, Mr. Speaker, that in view of the Report issued yesterday which deals with Parliamentary Questions, this is a gross abuse of Question Time by the right hon. Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples)?

No point of order arises. The calling of hon. Members to ask supplementary questions is solely a matter for the discretion of the Chair.

On a point of order. Has it not been understood, Mr. Speaker, on the basis of the Report which has been issued, that it is not a question of stifling discussion but that all Front Bench speakers, from either side of the House, should take into consideration in asking supplementary questions the need to be brief and to intervene as little as possible?

One of the most important things is that we should not have points of order which are not points of order. I have nothing to add to my reply already given.

May I ask the Minister, whether, in his opinion, it is better to use a computer for all the hours that it is serviceable than to close it down because of a whim on the part of the staff or the management?

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to put down Questions, I am fairly sure that we shall be prepared to answer them at any time. The closing down of the use of these computers to which I assume the right hon. Gentleman is referring is done not by a whim but by agreement between the two sides.

asked the Minister of Technology if the Computer Advisory Unit has been approached by the Greater London Council in connection with their current requirement for additional computers.

I have had some discussion with the leader of the Greater London Council about its current requirements of computers. The Council is consulting the Unit about its future requirements.

Does the Minister agree that since there is a fruitful field in complex units of local government, this is a direction in which the Unit might well take the initiative?

The Unit is prepared to do this at any time.

asked the Minister of Technology what progress is being made in combating the depredations of the teredo and the gribble; and whether, among other factors tending to encourage these pests, those engaged in this research test regularly the temperature of estuary waters that may be warmed gradually by the discharge of hot effluents from nuclear power stations.

Research to combat these pests has been undertaken for some years by the Timber Research and Development Association, which is grant-aided by my Ministry. Research so far has identified the more resistant types of timber and the best protective compositions.

Will my right hon. Friend see that this matter is watched year after year, since clearly the development of these boring pests is a matter of very great importance to the fishing industry and to those engaged in sailing, and, of course, they thrive in warm water? Will my right hon. Friend therefore watch the situation?

Certainly, I shall be prepared to do this. I am getting quite used to the activities of boring pests.

Are these pests members of the Tory Party?

They are, apparently, frequently found in warm water.

For greater accuracy, will the Minister tell us what a gribble is?

In the light of the Question, I should have thought that that would have been understood. They are marine wood-boring pests.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps he has taken to encourage the electronics industry in the North-East as a contribution to further industrial development there.

My Department's Regional Office is exploring with electronics firms in the North-East their facilities for undertaking work on defence contracts and on civil development contracts.

My right hon. Friend knows of my long interest in this matter. Will he take it from me that there is real urgency in this, and that if we are to link up the new industrial development that is taking place in the North-East the encouragement of electronics there is most important?

We have already had discussions with the Ministry of Aviation and with our own regional office, and we intend to pursue this with the electronic firms.

asked the Minister of Technology if, in view of the shortage of water in many parts of Great Britain, he will expedite research on the desalination of sea water; and if he will circulate in HANSARD a full statement on the progress of such research, on the various processes that have been tested and the results of the tests, on the information available as a result of research in other countries, and on the likely cost of any scheme that proves practicable.

I recognise the importance of this subject and I have directed the Atomic Energy Authority, under Section 4 of the Science and Technology Act, to take responsibility for a substantial programme of research and development into desalination methods. With permission, I propose to circulate a fuller statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Can my right hon. Friend say how quickly progress is likely to be made, since if there were really rapid progress in this research it could avert such unfortunate disputes as that between Manchester and the Lake District?

This subject is receiving urgent attention, and I shall circulate the report.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see what can be done to expedite the conservation of fresh water now running to waste into the seas round our coasts?

asked the Minister of Technology what progress has been made in research in Great Britain into the practical possibilities of light from ruby lasers.

Encouraging progress is being made in the fields of surgery, high-speed photography, surveying, machining of refractory materials and micro-welding and micro-machining of miniature components.

asked the Minister of Technology what investigation is being made into the economies to be achieved by the production of atomic power from incubated thorium; and whether any reactors are being built in Great Britain to test and exploit this process.

The Atomic Energy Authority has made some study of this but has concluded that in the short term thorium has no economic prospects as a substitute for uranium.

In regard to both this Question and the previous one, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that both Germany and America claim to have made a break-through in both laser development and in the development of thorium? Is he aware that they are now experimenting, and hope and believe that incubated thorium will provide cheaper atomic energy than anything so far developed?

I am aware of that, but the Atomic Energy Authority has its own views about the value of thorium at the moment, other than for cladding.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what his Department is doing about this question of light from ruby lasers, and is not this a very important matter for the future?

Certainly it is.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he proposes to develop the system of financial objectives for the nationalised industries to assist national economic expansion.

State industries all have an important rôle to play in developing and expanding the economy, particularly those in the energy and transport spheres now being studied. It is in this context that we shall wish to look at and, if need be, develop the system of financial objectives for these industries. But it is premature at this stage, when these inquiries are incomplete, to say precisely how this should be done.

Now that we have a Government who believe in public ownership, would not my hon. and learned Friend agree that there is a case for reviewing some of the assumptions made in the previous Government's White Paper on this subject?

Yes, Sir. As my right hon. Friend has said, in general we accept the financial targets contained in the existing White Paper, but, for the reasons indicated by my hon. Friend, we are reviewing this matter and we will consider in what further ways we can develop the system of financial objectives.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if, in view of the rise in the cost of tobacco, he will seek power to authorise the reintroduction of coupons for old-age pensioners to enable them to buy limited amounts of tobacco at a reduced price.

No, Sir.

Does the hon. and learned Gentleman realise that that will cause great disappointment amongst all the old-age pensioners, and amongst his personal admirers?

I think that the experience of the previous coupon scheme showed that it worked unfairly as between different classes of pensioners and as between smokers and nonsmokers, and also led to serious abuse. I do not think there is a general feeling that it ought to be readopted.

In view of that reply, will the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us why his party persistently opposed the abolition of the coupons?

The answer is that we wanted an increase in pensions, which was not granted. We have now made the most substantial increase in the pension that has ever been made, and this is a much more satisfactory way of assisting old-age pensioners.

Has my hon. and learned Friend's attention been drawn to the statement by the Chairman of the Medical Research Council at the Royal Society for Health Congress in which he indicates that the Government should do all in their power to discourage smoking, and if he feels that there is something in this question will he consider taxing cigarettes more heavily than other forms of tobacco?

I do not think that in determining fiscal policy it would be right to have regard to those considerations, but, of course, the tax which has been imposed will help, in so far as it has the effect of deterring people from smoking cigarettes.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his recent visit to the United States of America.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the talks that he had with President Johnson during his recent visit to the United States of America.

asked the Prime Minister if he discussed with the President of the United States of America the desirability of establishing a World Food Bank; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement about his recent visit to North America.

asked the Prime Minister what discussions he had with President Johnson on his recent visit to the United States of America regarding the policy of the United States Government on the strengthening of sterling.

asked the Prime Minister what was the outcome of his discussions with President Johnson on the subject of Vietnam during his recent visit to the United States.

The main purpose of my recent visit to the United States of America was to address the Economic Club in New York. While I was in the United States, I was glad to have the opportunity to have talks with the Secretary-General of the United Nations and with President Johnson on a number of subjects of common interest.

Is the Prime Minister aware that President Johnson has recently announced greatly increased American support for the Mekong River development project as a means of encouraging peace and economic development in South-East Asia? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he discussed with President Johnson the possibility of Britain taking part in this important scheme, and, if so, can he give the House any details?

This proposal for a big development scheme in the Mekong Valley was included in the speech made by President Johnson in Baltimore just before my visit. I therefore had the opportunity of long discussions with him on this question. Britain has been concerned in some of the technical examination, and I have said that we intend to co-operate to the fullest extent of our powers in this development.

I congratulate the Prime Minister on the great success of his visit, and I am sure that that is endorsed by all hon. Members on this side of the House. May I ask my right hon. Friend whether, despite certain remarks made in Washington, he will continue to pursue an individual initiative with regard to the Far-Eastern crisis?

We discussed a number of initiatives, and had fruitful discussions, and I think that we have seen some of the results of those discussions. It never has been the policy of the Government to embark on slavish acquiescence in the views of the party opposite.

As the escalation of the war seems to be in the direction of bombing Hanoi, Peking, and industrial centres, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he told the President in advance that this country would dissociate itself from any such step?

There was never any discussion of the possibility of bombing Hanoi, Peking, or any other such place.

In view of my right hon. Friend's long-known recognition of the danger of world poverty, may I ask whether he can give an undertaking that he will lose no opportunity of discussing this problem and the institution of a World Food Bank with all world leaders at every opportunity?

The question of the world food scheme is a matter for F.A.O., with which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development is concerned. When, a year or two ago, I reopened the proposal of some years ago for a World Food Board, it was in the context of the possibility of large agricultural surpluses as a result of high agricultural prices in the Common Market and elsewhere. I am sure the House would agree that if there is to be a development of surpluses through agricultural protection there is everything to be said for channelling those surpluses to hungry nations.

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling) put forward certain proposals for easing the problem of international liquidity. Was the right hon. Gentleman able to take these any further in his talks with the President?

There have been a number of proposals for international liquidity. I think that when the Labour Party were on that side of the House we put forward some rather fuller proposals than those of the right hon. Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling). Certainly this was discussed fully during my visit, not only with the President, but with the new Secretary to the Treasury, and our various views on this were compared. I know the disappointments that there have been in the past in this matter, but the prospects now, in relation to both the American and the French scene, are better for a discussion of international liquidity. In Washington I said that we will make less progress if we all put forward proposals with names to them, or with national names. It is far better for something to emerge from international discussions without anyone taking pride in the authorship of any particular scheme.

Can the Prime Minister explain the remarks that he made during his visit to North America, and particularly New York, when he explained the measures taken by the Government to promote a new sense of drive and urgency, and technological advance and invention? Does he appreciate that whatever the Economic Club of New York thought of it, to many people in this country it will seem like an Alice-in-Wonderland description of legislation by this Government?

I am sure that the hon. Member will realise that the Economic Club of New York, consisting of Wall St. bankers and industrialists, is a rather tougher and less impressionable audience, even than some of those that the hon. Member may address from time to time. So far as that audience was concerned, so far as a large part of British industry is concerned, and so far as everyone except those who have political advantage to seek in denying what we are doing is concerned, it is accepted.

Did the Prime Minister explain to the Economic Club or to anyone else over there how he was going to "knock hell" out of the American aircraft industry?

What I explained to them—I did not go out of my way to draw attention to the last 13 years—was that when we have got some sense of urgency in the innovations in our civil industry, and when we have deployed some of our wasted resources from defence white elephants into civil electronics and engineering, we will knock hell out of them.

Did not the Prime Minister call attention, quite rightly, to the enormous reserves supporting sterling that have been amassed in the last 13 years?

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the figures. The increase over the past 13 years, as a proportion of the total, is very small. The right hon. Gentleman can have the figures if he wants them.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will suggest the introduction of a Commonwealth Order of Merit which could be given on the advice of Presidents and Governors General to any of their nationals who had shown outstanding service for the Commonwealth.

Citizens of Commonwealth countries, other than the United Kingdom, are of course eligible for the existing Order of Merit. Other Commonwealth countries, where The Queen is not Head of State, have their own systems of honours, and I think there would be difficulties in proposing a Commonwealth-wide system as the hon. Member suggests.

Despite the present difficulties between two Commonwealth countries, since hon. Members on both sides of the House wish to stimulate the Commonwealth concept, and since the recognition of endeavour is very acceptable to the human race, can the Prime Minister say that should another Commonwealth country propose such an order the Government of the United Kingdom would not oppose it?

I am not sure whether the hon. Member has in mind the existing Order of Merit as we know it or some extension of it. As he will realise, these awards are made on the initiative of Her Majesty as a mark of honour and not on recommendation. If the hon. Gentleman is raising the question of some new Commonwealth Order we shall be prepared to give consideration to any suggestion made by any Commonwealth Head of Government, although a large number of Commonwealth citizens are already included in the Birthday and New Year's Honours Lists every year.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Minister to conduct an interdepartmental investigation into the system of ordering stores and supplies and their subsequent disposal as surplus.

No, Sir, not at present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there has been and still is considerable public disquiet about this matter? If he receives any report in the future from any authorities, will he give it serious consideration and follow it up with action?

I share the disquiet expressed. There has been a considerable improvement recently in stockholding and the transferring of surpluses, as a result of the installation of computers, but there are still anxieties about the methods of their disposal as well as of their ordering. As I have said, the Ministers are looking into this. If we find that there is a case for any kind of Ministerial or general inquiry we shall not hesitate to institute it.

Is not this something that should come out of an efficient Estimates Committee? If Estimates Committees were appointed for a much longer time we should get more out of them of this nature.

It is not for me to suggest the appropriate programme for an Estimates Committee, or to comment in any way on its work. In the past the Estimates Committee has produced valuable reports on this subject, and the Public Accounts Committee, which has looked at the matter after the event, has produced some devastating reports, as the House knows.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will make a statement on his talks with the Prime Minister of Israel.