asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he is taking to improve car parking facilities in the Snowdon National Park and particularly in the Llanberis Pass.

Under the provisions of the National Parks Act, 1949, 11 car parks and five lay-bys have been constructed in the Snowdonia Park and two more car parks are expected to be built in the next few months. Proposals for two further car parks and a picnic site in the Llanberis Pass are at present held up because of difficulties in acquiring land, but schemes for four lay-bys are expected to proceed in the next 12 months.

Will the hon. Member do everything he can to expedite these schemes? The Llanberis Pass is one of the best starting points for climbs up Snowdon, and at the moment the parking arrangements there are totally inadequate.

I appreciate what the hon. Member has said. We shall do all in our power. I would point out that in the first place, at least, the acquisition of land is a matter for the local planning authority and the owners of the land. The Welsh Office becomes involved when it is a question of compulsory purchase. But we will make inquiries and try to speed it up.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what were the subjects of his recent discussions with leaders of the coal industry; and whether he will make a statement.

At my meetings with them on 26th March and 13th March, respectively, the Industrial Association of South Wales and Monmouthshire and the South Wales area of the National Union of Mineworkers discussed with me the present position and problems of the coal industry in South Wales.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that the serious subject of rising absenteeism in the coal industry, especially in the South Wales area, was discussed at those meetings? Is he aware that absenteeism is now reaching a level of about 20 per cent. of the total labour force for the whole of each week? It is believed that it is putting about 10s. a ton on the cost of coal. As an old miner, will he appeal to miners in this area not to sabotage their own industry in the face of increasing competition?

I am aware of the problem to which the hon. Member refers. Most of our discussions were concentrated upon the most serious and the biggest problem which affects the South Wales coalmining industry, namely, the serious shortage of manpower as a result of the drain upon it. I know the miners, and if, with respect, I may say this to the hon. Member, some of the speeches made by him recently, both in tone and content, have not helped to solve the problem.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Box) would do a better service to the people of South Wales if he ceased his carping criticism of the mining industry at this time? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that what is required is faith and confidence in the industry in order to encourage miners to remain in it?

What is required in the industry is a measure of stability, so that we can offer young people who enter it the prospect of a career. Unless we can do that we shall face the very serious situation—for the first time in my experience of the industry—of being short of miners.

The right hon. Gentleman has not referred to the figures which my hon. Friend gave. Is he prepared to confirm or disagree with those figures?

The hon. Member used those figures on his own responsibility. I cannot confirm or deny them—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"]—because I have not heard them before. We know quite well that this is one of the problems in the coalmining industry, but it is not the only one, and if we merely emphasise it we may not give sufficient attention to the main problem, which is the serious drain on manpower in the industry, which can have calamitous consequences for this country.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total of claims for relief for flood damage caused in Wales last December; and what percentage of these claims have been met.

Claims for assistance from the Lord Mayor's Flood Distress Fund numbered in all 1,508, and payments have been made in 890 cases or 59 per cent. Some claims are still under consideration.

The hon. Gentleman has given the figure of applications and those granted. How long will it be before the rest of these claims have been considered and met? Is he aware that there is a certain amount of apprehension about this in various parts of Wales where people were affected by the floods?

The assessment of claims and the decision regarding what is proper to pay has proceeded with care and expedition. There are some claims still outstanding and some to be considered again. I can give the hon. Member the assurance that no time has been lost consistent with dealing with this fund in a proper manner, and certainly no time will be lost in the future.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that there is enough money to meet the claims put in?

The amount of money to be dispersed is contingent on the public response to the appeal plus the pretty generous subvention from the Treasury to the fund. Everyone would wish to see more money in the "kitty" to be used for this purpose, but we are satisfied that cases of real hardship, for which this fund was normally intended, will be met fairly substantially.

Can the Minister confirm that if a case of real hardship has been overlooked they are prepared to look at it again and revise their view about whether compensation should be paid?

Yes, certainly. It must be an exceptional case, because all these hundreds of claims have already been carefully considered by professional assessors and cannot be looked at again in detail. If the hon. and learned Gentleman, or anyone else, has evidence of a claim which seemed to have been overlooked or not fairly treated, they can bring the evidence to me or forward it direct to the Lord Mayor's Distress Fund at the Mansion House, Cardiff.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much money was raised by the Lord Mayor of Cardiff's Flood Relief Appeal and how much was added to it by the Government to meet appeals for 1964 flood relief in Wales.

The Lord Mayor has to date received a total of £8,498 in response to his appeal and the Government have supplemented this with a grant of £25,000.

While recognising that the comparison between these figures is wide, may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman is satisfied that the figure of £25,000 from the Government will be adequate to deal with the very large number of cases revealed to us by his previous Answer? He will remember that on 15th December he made a very sympathetic and correct statement, which was followed by the speech of his right hon. Friend in the Welsh Grand Committee on 16th December. Can we be certain that the amount forthcoming from the Government will be adequate to deal with this distressing problem?

The hon. Member will agree that the Government subvention is pretty substantial. It is a generous contribution considering the amount of the public response, and compares very favourably with the attitude of the then Government at the time of the Sheffield storm damage appeal in 1962. Nevertheless, we share the desire of the hon. Gentleman that as many as possible of these flood victims may be helped as soon as possible. So far, resting on the recommendations of professional assessors, we find that practically all who have a valid case have been helped to some extent and others will be considered in the way that I indicated to the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson).

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he will take to provide employment for the 500 men likely to be affected by the closure of Fforchaman Colliery.

I understand that discussions are taking place between the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers on the future of Fforchaman Colliery. If it is decided that the pit should close, I am informed that the National Coal Board expects to be able to offer jobs in other pits in the area to all the men affected, so that there should be virtually no redundancy. However, I recognise the concern of my right hon. Friend about the general employ-

I thank my right hon. Friend for the suggestion contained in his Answer. Would not he agree that what is of vital concern to my constituents is the loss of 500 jobs? If the effort to retain the colliery should prove unsuccessful, will he consult his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to see what may be done to provide alternative employment?

I am concerned about this closure and the fact that the number of jobs available would be reduced, particularly for young people. I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said. I should like to discuss the matter with him.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will issue a circular to recommend local authorities in Wales to extend any leases expiring in the near future on the same terms and until such time as the leasehold Bill is introduced.

As I informed the hon. Member in reply, to his Question on 21st January, I do not wish to anticipate the legislation to which my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Housing and Local Government, referred to in his statement on 8th December last.

Could not the right hon. Gentleman be a little more precise about when this important leasehold Bill is to be introduced? Is he aware that many of his hon. and right hon. Friends who have been very vocal in the past in their criticism of the system, are now strangely silent? Is he further aware that many people feel that the Government are deliberately dragging their feet in the hope of being rescued by a General Election defeat and so avoid having to introduce this legislation?

I have told the hon. Member before that I share his anxiety that this legislation should come in as soon as possible. It will come in the course of this Session.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has for increasing the number of medical students.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the establishment of new medical schools.

My colleagues and I are giving close attention to this matter, and I am not yet in a position to make a statement on it.

Will my right hon. Friend realise that, due to the shortage of doctors, it would be necessary to have at least five new medical schools and even then they would be producing only 400 more doctors a year? If we get the medical schools, would my right hon. Friend site them in the industrial north of England because doctors tend to settle near where they have been trained? If he intends to expedite the number of students in medical schools, will he please abolish the quota for women which exists in the London medical schools, so that we may get the best people?

There are two questions here. There is the expanding need for more medical students and how it may be met, whether by the provision of new medical schools or the expansion of existing ones. The whole matter is being considered by an official working party representing the Treasury, the Minister of Health, the U.G.C., the Scottish Health Department and my own Department. Until it has produced its conclusions I cannot go further. I will make one further point, which is that the final answer will inevitably depend upon the general review of plans for public expenditure to be undertaken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give some indication of when he expects that he will be able to make his statement, as this was one of the promises in the election manifesto about which people considered that the Government were poised ready for action?

The Government are poised ready for any action at the right moment on every conceivable subject, but naturally it must be at the appropriate time. I am extremely sympathetic to the case my hon. Friend has made. As to the timing of this statement, it is a complicated issue and I do not think that it would be before the summer.

When considering the siting of new medical schools, will the Minister pay particular attention to the requirements of Hull University which has long sought a medical school?

Yes, Sir.

Can the right hon. Gentleman yet say anything about the inquiry into medical education, bearing in mind the fact that I was under criticism from the present Minister of Health for not having been able to make a statement on this very nearly a year ago?

Not yet.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he has taken to expand the work of the Agricultural Research Council and other organisations engaged in agricultural research.

This year's Estimate for the Agricultural Research Council, for which I am responsible, is rather more than £1 million larger than the grant for last year. Other organisations are the responsibility of my right hon. Friends, the Secretary of State for Scotland, and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether he has had discussions about what aspects of research in agriculture should be expanded?

Yes Sir. Recently, expansion has been greatest in food research. The new Food Research Institute and the Meat Research Institute are both due to be completed in 1967. There is also an important new nitrogen fixation unit established at the University of Sussex.

Will the Minister bear in mind the vital necessity for agricultural research, particularly into types and breeds of animals, to meet the new market requirements?

Yes, Sir. I shall certainly bear that in mind. I would point out that the increase of over £1 million represents a rise of 15 per cent. in spending this year over last year.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will take steps to set up a control body for professional wrestling similar to that in existence for boxing, in order to ensure that higher standards are maintained than at present.

No, Sir.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House how long the great British public are to submit to these rehearsed charades which go on in the name of contests and on which, incidentally, no bookmaker will take a bet? Can he offer the House any advice as to how the standard of these alleged contests can be brought up to the level of other types of wrestling?

I am happy to say that I do not think that this falls within my responsibility, but it might encourage the hon. Member if I tell him that these professional wrestlers—of whom, I understand, there are about 400—have now formed a private wrestlers' union and, very appropriately, have affiliated themselves to the Variety Artistes' Federation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if lie will make a statement on the results of the consideration he has given to whether any change is necessary in the quantities and types of food recommended for the school dinner in Circular No. 290 of 1955.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, in view of the representatinos made to him by the Association of Education Committees, the National Association of Divisional Executives and the Institutional Management Association on school meals as set out in Circular 290, what action he proposes to take; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, in view of the representations made to him by various local education authorities, if he will now take action on the question of the quantities and types of food recommended for the school meals in Circular No. 290 of 1955; and whether he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has set up a working party to review the nutritional recommendations made in the Department's Circular 290 of 1955, with special reference to the question of adjusting the proportion of first-class protein for children in different age groups, and to consider whether the present type of school dinner is appropriate in the light of changes in family feeding habits.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that information, and bearing in mind that for most children the school dinner is the main meal of the day, may I ask him to consider recommending to the working party that they might find it useful and illuminating if all school-children were asked to write an essay on school dinners?

I know that this proposal is not in front of the working party, but I have no doubt that its members will have noted the supplementary question of my hon. Friend.

I should like to thank my hon. Friend for that Answer, but in view of the fact that circular 290 was issued in 1955, may I ask him to ensure that the working party gets on with this job as soon as possible so as to meet some of the criticisms which have been made by such associations as the National Association of Divisional Executives for Education?

Yes, Sir. The working party hopes to finish its work during the summer.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his Departmental officers in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, according to the Director of Education of that city, are acting in an uncompromising manner in carrying out the regulations, and that the L.E.A. has been pressed to take the cheapest cuts of meat? Will he draw the attention of the working party to the fact that growing teen-agers do not need sloppy custards and milky puddings but more good meat?

The Department has had representations from local authorities over a period along these lines. It is for these reasons, and because there seems to be a prima facie case for looking at this question, that the working party was established. I know that the House would not expect me to anticipate its recommendations.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that, after 10 years, it is time that we got a move on with this?

I should have thought that we had got a move on. The working party was appointed some months ago and will be reporting to us during the summer. I do not want to make any invidious comparisons, but I think that we have moved fairly quickly on this important subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now reconsider the 1965–66 financial arrangements for the schools minor works programme in order to give greater assistance to authorities such as Bristol proceeding with progressive schemes of educational redevelopment.

No, Sir. These arrangements are necessary in order to secure a fair distribution of resources among local education authorities throughout the country.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the importance of giving progressive and farsighted education authorities such as Bristol which are proceeding with comprehensive education the maximum financial support?

Yes, Sir. The amount of allocation made for minor works programmes under all Governments for a very long time has, unfortunately, been only a fraction—approximately a third or less—of the bids made by authorities. This applies whether the authorities are progressive or otherwise. We shall be doing as much as we can in this direction in future.

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that, despite the very high level of school improvements during the last 10 years, we on this side have never denied that a high level of improvement work still needs to be done? Will the hon. Gentleman consistently give priority to this rather than going hell-for-leather for imposing comprehensive schools all over the country?

In the view of the Government, we need to do a great deal more about the state of our school buildings and bring in these overdue reforms in secondary education. The two aims are not conflicting. They must proceed on a complementary basis.

Will the hon. Gentleman shut out of his mind the remarks of his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, Central (Mr. Palmer) about this scheme for helping comprehensive schools? This is a vital matter concerning the spending of local money on small improvements which Labour Members complain are not being done.

No, Sir; I will not shut out of my mind the remarks of my hon. Friend. The comprehensive plans of the Corporation of Bristol to reorganise its secondary education were approved by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary when he was Secretary of State for Education and Science. They seem to be good schemes and they have the support of the Department.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science in what way provision of classrooms, showers, toilets, and other accommodation at Bideford East of Water falls short of the standards laid down by his Department.

I understand from the Devon Authority that the teaching area of the school is 1,600 sq. ft. below the minimum standard. The school is short of five toilet fittings and seven washbasins, and there is an insufficient supply of warm water. There is no staff room. Both the site and playing fields are below the minimum size laid down. There is no requirement for showers in a primary school.

Will the Minister bear in mind the very real problems through which this school is going and also that it is in a development district and therefore is an area with a rising population? Will he see that adequate funds are provided so that the school can be rebuilt?

The Devon local education authority included this school among its proposals for the programmes from 1965 to 1968. It was not included in the programmes approved by the late Government. The authority has recently made further representations with particular reference to the point, which the hon. Member has made, about it being in a development district. We are considering these carefully at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has to encourage the study of mathematics at sixth form level, as a prerequisite to the education of scientists and engineers.

The Schools Council is conducting a general review of the sixth form curriculum, which will include a study of sixth form mathematics. They are also publishing a Bulletin on primary mathematics, and collaborating with the Nuffield Foundation in a primary mathematics project. Secondary mathematics including sixth form mathematics is being studied by the "School Mathematics Project" the Director of which is Professor Thwaites of Southampton University. My Department organises a number of short courses for mathematics teachers.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his very encouraging reply, may I ask him whether he is aware that if mathematics is not studied at sixth form level, it is rarely acquired at a later stage in life and that this subject is crucial to the training of engineers, scientists and many others? Will he consider the setting up of a course specially suitable to the needs of such people?

I am well aware of the consideration which my hon. Friend advances, but I think that the answer which I gave shows that a great deal is going on in order to try to improve the present situation.

While welcoming the fact that Professor Thwaites is heading this committee and that the Schools Council is working on this and backing up the work of the Nuffield Foundation as well, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman can give any indication of the progress of the work, because this is a complicated subject? What contact is there with the schools?

As the hon. Member knows, the schools are heavily represented on the Schools Council, so that contact is very close. Very good progress is being made. I am seeing Professor Thwaites tomorrow morning to discuss with him how the future looks.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science in what way provision of classrooms, showers and toilets and other accommodation at Northam Primary School falls short of the standards laid down by his department.

I understand from the Devon authority that the teaching area of the school is 484 sq. ft. below the minimum standard. The school is short of five washbasins and there is no supply of warm water. The school has no staff room. The site is below the minimum size and there is no suitable playing field. There is no requirement for showers in a primary school.

Though not to blame for these conditions, does not the Minister bear a heavy responsibility because nothing is being done about it now?

That supplementary question was rather unfortunate because, had I been asked, I should have said that if the authority puts this into its revised bids for what remains of the 1967–68 programme, we should consider it carefully and sympathetically.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress he has made in setting up an educational trust with a view to the integration of the public schools within the State system of education.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now make a further statement on the integration of independent schools within the State system.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress he has made in his discussions on the future of the public schools, and their integration within the public system.

I will make a statement as soon as I am ready.

Can the Minister say, if the public schools refuse integration and if the Labour Party insists on integration—and must therefore compulsorily purchase the public schools at a fair price and pay for the goodwill—what will be the total cost of this operation?

Order. That supplementary question began with two propositions, beginning with the word "if", which makes it hypothetical.

Would the Minister—

Order. It is out of order, because it is hypothetical.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that one of the major principles of the integration of the public schools into the State system should be public control of the whole of the intake, in accordance with a formula based on need which the Minister will himself determine? Would not he further agree that there is no need at all to hesitate before introducing legislation should it prove that it is impossible to reach agreement on these principles with the public schools authorities?

I will pay the closest attention, as I always do, to the views of my hon. Friend on this subject, without necessarily accepting the principles which he is suggesting.

In view of the likelihood of quite protracted negotiations on this matter, would my right hon. Friend consider, as an immediate step, introducing the quota system of teacher allocation to the public schools in order to redress the balance of teacher facilities vis á vis the public sector and the private independent sector?

I will certainly consider that, without committing myself in advance.

Could the Minister give the value of the public schools in the event of them being taken over?

No, Sir. As far as I know, no such valuation has ever taken place.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this highly important subject is really too big for Question Time and that, in view of the speeches which Ministers have made on this subject recently, a statement is desirable as soon as possible? In the light of the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton), would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that I made a suggestion myself on this subject in last Friday's debate, while at the same time pointing out that a quota system really could not be applicable to the independent schools?

I am aware of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman on Friday. As to timing, of course I will make a statement as soon as possible. As hon. Members are aware, this is a highly complex and complicated question and I am not going to be rushed into making a statement. I will do so as soon as I am satisfied that we have a sensible statement to make.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are public schools and public schools? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Will he be careful not to introduce into the State system an adulterating element from some of the quaint establishments that call themselves public schools?

I shall certainly try to guard against introducing adultery into the State system. I take note of what my hon. Friend said.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will publish his proposed circular on the reorganisation of secondary education in the form of a White Paper.

No, Sir. The circular itself, when issued, will be placed in the Library and will be on sale to the public.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will ensure that the staff of secondary schools who give guidance on careers are aware of the special need of early advice to parents of immigrant children particularly those who may be seeking clerical and similar posts.

I am sure that the teachers concerned and youth employment officers are aware of what is needed. Vocational guidance is a skilled job which involves dealing with people as individuals. Advice to school leavers depends upon their aptitude, scholastic achievement, and personality as well as upon employment opportunities. This is not a subject in my view suitable for a mass approach and I have every confidence in the professional competence of teaching and youth employment staff to give all school leavers the guidance which is in their best interests.

Does the hon. Gentleman recollect that in the Third Report of the Commonwealth Immigration Advisory Council special action is urged on this subject and that in the opinion of many of us it is important that this difficult subject should be helped by giving young people a fair start in life? Does he not agree that some special effort by the authorities is required?

I am indeed grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for mentioning that, and I hope that this Question will help to encourage schools in that direction. We particularly want to maintain contact between schools and the youth employment officers. This will be one of the things to which we will pay special regard in the circular which my right hon. Friend will shortly be sending out to local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he is taking to encourage the development of school career departments.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Dudley Smith) on 18th March, 1965.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction among careers masters and mistresses about the present state of accommodation and equipment? Would he undertake to consult with the local education authorities to see if it would be possible to make provision for school careers departments in the plans of new school buildings?

I will certainly bear in mind the point made by my hon. Friend. We are considering a number of aspects of this problem at the moment with a view to stimulating the growth of careers advice in one form or another.

Would the Minister of State agree that contact with industry is of great importance? What is he doing to encourage contact between careers masters and local industry, as well as through directors of education?

Yes, Sir. I certainly agree that contact with industry is important. The Ministry is at present preparing a pamphlet on these matters for consideration in the schools. We run courses for careers masters and a one-term course is provided by one of the colleges of education. We regard this as something which must be expanded and improved in all these ways and we will be grateful for any other suggestions which are made from either side of the House in this connection.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the need for a college of music for the Yorkshire area; and, in view of the valuable work already being done by the Department of Music at the Huddersfield College of Technology, if he will seek to develop this department as a regional college of music centred on Huddersfield.

This flourishing department is already regarded as a regional centre for courses in music. There is mutual benefit and cultural advantage from its association with the other departments of the regional college and, as at present advised, my right hon. Friend does not think that its separation would he an improvement.

Is my hon. Friend aware—I am sure that he is—that as long ago as 1958 the Yorkshire Council for Further Education recognised this to be a regional college of music and, in the interests of the people in the Yorkshire region who are anxious to obtain a musical education, will he further consider the suggestions made in the Question?

I will certainly consider any specific points which my hon. Friend may care to send to me on this subject. As we see the position at present, we consider that the balance of advantage lies in the college being associated with the other departments concerned. There is a building project at the moment to expand the accommodation of the music department of the college, so it is not very likely that we will change our policy on this at this stage. However, we will consider any further points my hon. Friend may care to make.

As one who has heard a performance in this college, and a very good one at that, may I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider this matter carefully and bear in mind the very great advantage of having a first-class musical section as part of a college of a deservedly high standard and the danger of having too many institutions within our further education system?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what assistance he will give to the English Schools Athletic Association in connection with their annual sports at Watford in July, 1965.

My right hon. Friend is considering an application for grant towards the expenses of the general administration of the Association. He has not received any application for assistance with the expenses of the national championships and understands that the Association regards grant to its headquarters administration as the more important.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this will give considerable satisfaction in the quarters concerned and that we look forward to continuing interest in this in future?

Would the hon. Gentleman say what the present policy is in respect of giving grants for assisting sports? Is he waiting until he has all the applications before making them, or are they being made piecemeal?

I take it that the hon. Gentleman is referring to school sports which are the subject of the Question. In that case, I can inform him that one of the first things we did was to send for the English Schools Athletic Association and tell its members that for the first time they were to receive practical financial encouragement in their work.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has yet reached a decision concerning the move of the Chelsea College of Science and Technology to Hertfordshire as the basis of a new university.

No, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that reply will bring great disappointment to Hertfordshire, which is waiting to welcome the Chelsea College to its bosom? Is he aware that the City of St. Albans is ideally situated for such a university, and is especially suitable because of its ancient abbey and long historical associations?

I am well aware of the strong views held on this matter in St. Albans in particular and in Hertfordshire in general. Certainly there will not be any disappointment among well-informed people, who know quite well that I am unable to take this decision until I receive the advice of the University Grants Committee and that that Committee cannot tender its advice to me until it, in turn, has received the views of the governing body of the college on the recommendations of the Academic Advisory Committee.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what use will be made of the present building if and when the Chelsea College moves?

No decision has yet been made as to whether the college will move or, if it does move, to where.

When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to be in a position to make this statement? Is anything else holding up the decision, apart from the two steps to which he referred earlier?

No, Sir. Nothing more is holding it up although, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, there has been a great deal of disagreement on this subject in the past. The University Grants Committee has now received the advice of the governing body and of the Academic Advisory Committee. I hope that I will receive its views and that I will be able to reach a speedy decision.

Would my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the sites proposed for the university will be considered solely on their merits since it is the view of the new town of Stevenage that it can offer all the advantages of St. Albans and more?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will withdraw Circular 8/60, in order to enable all local education authorities to provide as many nursery schools as they consider to be necessary.

No, Sir. We still cannot afford to divert teachers from older children. But I am considering what more can be done to extend nursery provision where this will enable more married women teachers with young children to return to service.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that this discriminates unfairly in favour of married women teachers against the children of women who wish to return to medicine, science or nursing, where they are badly needed?

I am aware of this consideration, but I simply must give priority at the moment to married women returners in view of the desperate shortage of teachers in our primary and secondary schools.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that under the previous Administration local education authorities were told that nursery school buildings might be provided if they found the teachers but that they could not find the teachers until they had the buildings? Will my right hon. Friend be bold in this matter, provide the buildings and then allow the local education authorities to provide the teachers? Will he try some experiments?

I could not commit myself to that suggestion but, as I said, I am not satisfied with the way in which this concession is working. I should like both to make the existing concession more effective and, if possible, to widen it somewhat.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many local education authorities have requested additional teachers, over and above their quota, for remedial teaching with children coming from the Commonwealth.

Fourteen local education authorities have requested increases in their teacher quotas for January, 1966, to help them in staffing schools with substantial numbers of immigrant children from the Commonwealth and elsewhere. Thirteen of these authorities have received increases for this purpose, and one application is still being considered.

asked the Secretary a State for Education and Science how many substandard schools, primary and secondary, are still in use; and what would be the cost of bringing these up to standard, either by remedial works or by replacement.

I am sending my hon. Friend a copy of the report of the school building survey carried out in 1962, which was published in January of this year. The introduction explains why particular schools were not identified as substandard. A figure of £1,368 million was named in the survey as the cost, in 1962, of bringing all schools in England and Wales up to standard. But it was made clear that the results of the survey were subject to very important qualifications which deprived them of immediate practical significance.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, and ask him whether he does not think that this expenditure is perhaps the reason why the publication of the report was delayed until after the election; and that we are now faced with this considerable expenditure in order to bring our schools up to date after 13 years of neglect by Conservative Governments?

Arising out of that supplementary question, may I ask whether the Minister would at least set himself the target that within 18 months it can no longer be said that we have schools without running water or electricity, and in which a bucket is not the only form of sanitation, which is a situation particularly true in rural areas? Will he try to do something about it quickly?

I share the hon. Gentleman's desire completely, but we really are suffering from the appalling backlog of the neglect of the last 13 years.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that only in 1963 we had £200 million worth of school improvements under construction? And is it not a fact, bearing in mind what was said at the last election, that the last thing the people expected from the new Government was the reduction in the amount of the minor works programme that has been made?

I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends should continually give a false impression of the school building programme. If we take what is relevant to the building survey that is under discussion, the total school building programme this year at well over £100 million will be something like £20 million higher than it was last year.

asked the Prime Minister whether, following the further Ministerial talks, he will now make a statement on German support costs.

I have nothing to add to the Answer given on 15th April by my right hon. Friend the Lord President to a Question by the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne).

Does the Prime Minister recollect that on 11th March he said that if he did not get an agreement within a few weeks he would denounce the existing agreement at the beginning of April? Is not his reply very disappointing? Is it not a further example of his talent for words rather than deeds?

What we are concerned with, despite the hon. Gentleman's words, is trying to get the matter put right. As I have said, my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is going over to settle the matter, one way or the other, once and for all, on 10th and 11th June.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the rapid progress to which he referred on 11th March, which he expected in those few weeks? When he was in Bonn, is he aware that the Germans were at that moment in the course of discussions with the French, leading to agreement for the supply of £136 million worth of arms from France? Would he expect to get an order of anything like that character? Is this his idea of knocking hell out of them—or have the Germans told him to go to blazes?

Not bad for a first effort, but I had better say to the right hon. Gentleman that a great deal of progress is going on at official level and, in addition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has been over there discussing this question.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the progress he has made? He was telling us two months ago that if he did not make progress rapidly in the next two months he was going to alter the agreement. Is he satisfied with the progress made, and has he anything tangible to support this two months later?

The answer is that my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has been there for the second part of the negotiations which I started. A lot of work is going on, and if we do not get satisfaction I have already told the House what our attitude will be.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the previous Government, after several years of negotiations with the West German Federal Government, and under pressure from myself and many other members of the previous Opposition, never reached a satisfactory con- clusion? At the same time, would my right hon. Friend take note of the report about the arrangements between the West German Government and the French Government, and try to get some satisfactory arrangements with the German Government?

I am well aware of the achievements, if one can use that word, of the previous Government but in reference to the particular deal that was trumpeted by the Daily Express yesterday, which has so excited the right hon. Gentleman, so far as we can obtain information on this, there is little, and possibly nothing, new in this compared with the orders already placed with the French Government by the German Government when the right hon. Gentleman was in the Cabinet.

asked the Prime Minister what decision has now been reached by Her Majesty's Government regarding the recognition of the competence of the European Commission on Human Rights to receive petitions within the terms of Article 25 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms; and if he will now declare, pursuant to Article 46 of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, that he recognises as compulsory, ipso facto and without special agreement, the jurisdiction of the European Court of Human Rights on all matters concerning the interpretation and application of the Convention.

I have as yet nothing to add to the Answer I gave to a similar Question by the hon. Member on 9th February last.

Is the Prime Minister aware that this is a very disappointing Answer for those who are concerned with human rights and who thought that the Government might take an early decision on the matter? Surely, this country has nothing to lose in granting the right of individual petition to an impartial judicial body. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some idea of the reasons that are giving him difficulty in reaching a decision adhering to these Articles?

I think that the hon. Gentleman will realise that this is a matter of supreme importance, and extremely complex. I share his disappointment that within six months we have not been able to reach a conclusion. I am a little disappointed. But the Convention was, in fact, signed and ratified in 1951, and, in view of the urgency, I think we might have expected a little more progress and speed a little earlier than the last six months.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take care before taking any step that might mean that decisions of our own courts of appeal are over-ridden by a European court of first instance?

I always take very great care in all these matters of human rights that are so dear to the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Prime Minister who are the three advisers who comprise the committee charged with the carrying out of positive vetting of the Civil Service.

There is no committee of three or any other number concerned with positive vetting of the Civil Service; an advisory committee of three, Sir David Milne, Sir James Crombie and Mr. G. A. Stevens, which has no responsibility for carrying out positive vetting of the Civil Service, operates on terms of reference which were announced in the House on 30th January, 1957.

Then can the right hon. Gentleman say who is responsible for positive vetting, particularly in view of the fact that there have been two recent cases of people who have been charged with espionage? Could he describe in detail whether he is satisfied that the positive vetting now in operation—who-ever does it—is a really satisfactory type of vetting, and has good results?

The responsibility in these matters in the present Government, as was the position in the previous Government, is in the hands of the Ministers concerned and, ultimately, of the Prime Minister. I would find it a little difficult to refer to the cases mentioned by the hon. Lady as they are sub judice, but since she asked me whether I am satisfied with the procedures followed in the past I may say that I am very much dissatisfied with them, but the House will understand that I cannot make a statement on the question until certain matters have been disposed of before the courts. I hope to make a statement to the House in the near future.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what is the precise rôle of the Paymaster-General in this particular matter?

I may even have something to say on that subject when I am free to make a statement on security. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will realise that this Government, on coming into office, decided to set on foot all the arrangements necessary so that we should never again have a situation of a Prime Minister saying that he had never been told about security matters that had been common knowledge for three months.

asked the Prime Minister what are the instructions given to Ministers about taking part in public processions and demonstrations of a controversial nature.

In these and similar matters Ministers are guided by the principle that they must so order their affairs that no conflict arises, or appears to arise, between their private interests and their public duties.

Is the Prime Minister aware that before Easter I asked the Home Secretary whether he would give an assurance that no Minister would be taking part in the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament march, and that the right hon. and learned Gentleman said that he could give no such assurance? Is he further aware that another of his junior Ministers took part in the demonstration outside South Africa House? Would it not be more becoming to Her Majesty's Ministers if the Prime Minister could give an assurance that they would not take part in these demonstrations?

The hon. Gentleman's question to my right hon. and learned Friend arose out of a main Question dealing with police arrangements. I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not suggest that it is the duty of the Home Secretary to order his police arrangements in such a way as to inquire into the intentions of Ministers in carrying out the requirements of the statement I have made—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the Question."]—The first half of the question related to the hon. Member's supplementary question of 25th March. I had to make clear the circumstances in which that question was put, for the benefit of hon. Members who may not recall the precise supplementary question.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that these marches are about the healthiest form of political activity in which Members of Parliament can take part in these days? Will he use his influence on the Leader of the Opposition to lead a "Hands off Steel" march from London to Ebbw Vale?

I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman would like to vacate his seat for so long. It is not for me to give advice to my hon. Friend on the question of marching and exercise, but I should like to say to the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten)—and we share his regret at having been frogmarched from the Front Bench to the back benches—that he could, perhaps, show his enthusiasm in some suitable case involving human liberty by himself joining in one of these demonstrations.

Does it not constitute something of a record for the Government to have got both the nuclear disarmament people and the aircraft workers out on the march this year?

asked the Prime Minister if he will take steps to amend the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) Act, 1949, with respect to the representation of Northern Ireland in the House of Commons.

No, Sir. The Government have no such plans.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that his remarks in his recent speech excited some expectation on these benches that we might have some reform of the abuses of the constitution in Northern Ireland?

I cannot find any record in any speech I have made that would have given rise to those particular expectations. I am quite certain that any changes at any time in our constitution are matters which would duly have to be put before the electorate, and then to some future Parliament. We have certainly no such plans on this. I am sure the House will agree that there is an apparent lack of logic, for example, about steel, when Northern Ireland can, and presumably will, swell the Tory ranks tonight, when we have no power to vote on questions about steel in Northern Ireland, as the Bill cannot extend to Northern Ireland because of the fact that the Stormont Parliament has concurrent jurisdiction in these matters.

Does the Prime Minister recall that on 28th October, 1948, Mr. Attlee gave a pledge to the House on behalf of the Government that no change would be made in the constitutional status of Northern Ireland without Northern Ireland's free argreement? Will he confirm that he supports that pledge in regard to these arrangements?

I was certainly a member of the Cabinet that made that pledge. I stand by that pledge. The right hon. Gentleman might start, on matters of taste, to look at the question of why he gets the support of his hon. Friends beside him—for example, on matters affecting housing discrimination in London—when we English, Scottish and Welsh Members cannot express our views about housing conditions in Belfast.

Would the Prime Minister answer my question? What I asked was whether, on behalf of his party, he supports the pledge given by Mr. Attlee, as he then was, when he was Prime Minister?

The right hon. Gentleman was obviously so deafened by the concourse of candidates round him that he did not hear the answer I gave. He will find it in HANSARD tomorrow, but, just to help him, in case they do not give him HANSARD to read, I will say it again, and perhaps he will listen this time. [Interruption.] I will give the answer again, if hon. Members want to hear it a second time. I said that I was a member of the Government that gave that pledge, and I said that I accepted that pledge on behalf of the Government. I said that last time. I do not know why the right hon. Gentleman gets up and wastes time asking for a repetition.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many on this side of the House, and many whom we represent outside the House, who are of the opinion that, as Ulster has an autonomous and separate Parliament, there is no reason why it should send representatives here?

I have already drawn attention to the anomalous situation. The House has no jurisdiction over large matters, including two Measures coming before the House this week, so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. I would hope that Northern Ireland Members, who are here, and who are welcomed here, for the duties they have to perform on behalf of the United Kingdom in many matters affecting Northern Ireland, would consider their position in matters where we have no equivalent right in Northern Ireland.

Would the Prime Minister at least repudiate the suggestion made by his right hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell) that a people who are taxed at the same level as anybody else in the United Kingdom should not have the right to send representatives to this House and deal with all matters which affect public expenditure? Is it not in fact now the case that, since the electorate has risen in Northern Ireland so very largely since 1920, there is a very good ease for three or four more Members—[Interruption.]

The hon. and gallant Gentleman and his hon. Friends are rather making the case against that sort of extension. It is certainly the case that Northern Ireland Members have great duties to perform here in the sense of foreign affairs, defence, and matters affecting Northern Ireland, including taxation and expenditure. What was not envisaged, I am sure, in 1920 was that those who came here with that responsibility for representing Northern Ireland interests should just become hacks supporting the English Tory Party.

rose

I was calling the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, but there was too much noise to allow me to complete what I was saying—"for the Business Question."

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the replies from the Prime Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.