asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether, in the proposals he will bring forward for a Crown Land Commission, he will devise nomenclature to distinguish between the phrase Crown Land, as used in the older sense, and any land which may subsequently be vested in the new Land Commission.

Yes, Sir.

In view of the fact that confusion will be caused by the use of the word "Crown" in this highly controversial piece of party legislation based on nationalisation, will the Minister undertake not to bolster it up by using the name "Crown"?

This is a piece of necessary legislation which will be generally welcomed, but I appreciate the point which the hon. Gentleman has raised.

Is the Minister aware that there is a striking difference between the phraseology and nomenclature in English law and that in Scottish law, which is derived largely from and based on Roman law? Will he take that into account for the benefit of the ordinary citizen who will have to construe any Measures which he introduces?

I am aware of that, but I would ask my hon. and learned Friend to address his observations about Scottish law to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources, if he will now announce the setting up of the Land Commission; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will take steps to enable local authorities to acquire land for essential house building at reasonable prices.

My right hon. Friend will be introducing legislation to set up a Land Commission and to deal with the problem of land prices as soon as possible.

Can my hon. Friend tell me whether during the period in which this legislation is being prepared there has been any drying up of the land available for building development?

No, Sir. We have no such evidence.

Will this legislation be preceded by a White Paper? If it is, in order to keep himself in the fashion will the Minister have the White Paper debated and then be prepared to listen?

Is my hon. Friend aware that if a White Paper were issued on land prices it would be found that in the last 15 years land prices have rocketed nearly 1,000 per cent. and that huge fortunes have been made out of land? Will he do something to stop this exploitation of people's needs for housing by stopping this racket in land prices?

The rise in the cost of land is common knowledge and the only way of dealing with it is by the legislation which my right hon. Friend has in mind.

Will the hon. Member be good enough to answer my question as to his right hon. Friend's intention about a White Paper?

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for not answering the whole of his question, but I do not altogether understand the second part of it. On the purely factual part of the question, it is intended to publish a White Paper.

Arising out of the supplementary question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire. East (Mr. Bence), will my hon. Friend at least agree, so that we may have it on the record, that it is entirely wrong that when a local authority compulsorily acquires land for housing or other social purposes it should have to pay, within the compulsory acquisition price, that element of value which derives from the planning permission which it itself gave?

This view is entirely shared by the Government.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether the Water Resources Board, in its study of the Dee and Morecambe Bay barrages, will consult the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, on whose efficiency much of the wellbeing of Merseyside must depend.

The Water Resources Board is not at present directly concerned with the Dee Barrage. On the Morecambe Bay scheme the Board will of course have to consult very widely. My right hon. Friend has not thought it necessary to give the Board detailed instructions as to the scope of its consultations, but I will bring the hon. Member's Question to their notice.

When the Water Resources Board ultimately looks at the Dee barrage will it also consider using sand dredged up from the Mersey, which is at present dumped in the Irish Sea, and the feasibility of taking it across the Wirral?

Now that the hon. Gentleman has made that point, I shall see that it is considered.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what plans he has for the expansion of forestry in the South-West, particularly in the Hartland and Beaworthy area.

Together with the Ministers responsible for forestry in Scotland and Wales, my right hon. Friend is reviewing the forestry programme for Great Britain as a whole. Referring to the specific districts mentioned by the hon. Member the Forestry Commission is examining various possibilities of establishing wood-using industries in the Bristol Channel area, which might help the marketing problems of the South-West, including those areas which the hon. Member has in mind.

Will the Minister bear in mind the very real need for an extension of forestry in the South-West, particularly in these areas, which have some of the poorer land? Will he also bear in mind that what really would help the forestry industry would be a chipboard factory in that area?

The Forestry Commission and my right hon. Friend entirely accept the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's Question. I must point out to him, however, that one real difficulty is to get owners of land, even of marginal land, in the areas which he specifies, to switch to forestry. There has been a reluctance to do so, and this is one of our difficulties.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what progress has been made in the studies of the possibility of damming the Wash to create a reservoir by holding back water from rivers such as the Witham, Welland, Nene and Ouse in order to provide fresh water for use in the dry counties of the East Midlands and East Anglia.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether, in view of the present and prospective shortage of water supply in East Anglia, he will hasten the feasibility study of the water storage potentialities of the Wash and give this scheme priority over schemes which would benefit other parts of the country where the water shortage is less acute.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources whether, in his study of the feasibility of a Wash barrage scheme, he will pay due regard to its effect on the port of King's Lynn.

A preliminary report by consultants on the storage potentialities of the Wash is expected before the end of the year. The Water Resources Board has put in hand studies of the long-term water demand in the South-East and ways of meeting it. It would be premature to undertake feasibility studies, which would be expensive, until this further information is available.

Of course, any feasibility study would have to have regard to the effect of the scheme on the port of King's Lynn.

When the Minister considers these reports, will he take into account not only their technical recommendations on water conservation—which are extremely important—but also the arguments in favour of creating a large body of water for fishing, boating and other recreation?

Certainly. When I have these reports about water conservation, I shall have to consider, along with my colleagues, the other factors affecting any proposed barrage scheme.

I recognise the urgent need for water conservation in this area, but is it not important in the meantime to offer better opportunities and inducements to farmers and landowners to conserve water themselves? The expense of the scheme would be enormous and might create considerable difficulty for the growing harbour and port of Boston. Therefore, is it not important to weigh up these matters and offer inducements to people to conserve water, as they can do, and are doing in many cases.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We have to take what steps we can to encourage the conservation of water. I would emphasise, as he has, that any barrage scheme on the Wash would be a long-term measure. It would not help us in our immediate difficulties.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will take steps to produce a register of land entitlements in the United Kingdom.

If my hon. Friend has in mind a statistical record of the uses to which land is put, my right hon. Friend has referred to the Natural Resources Advisory Committee the question of land use surveys and statistics. If he is thinking of the registration of title, this is in the course of being effected by Her Majesty's Land Registry.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will take steps to enable local authorities to acquire land for recreation purposes.

Local authorities already have full powers to acquire land for recreation purposes, either by agreement or compulsorily. However, I am aware that some local authorities are discouraged from buying land for open space by the price that they will have to pay for it, but for any solution of this I must ask my hon. Friend to await the introduction of legislation for the Land Commission.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I sincerely trust that he will keep in his right hon. Friend's mind the necessity to enable land to be procured at much cheaper prices than have hitherto obtained in this respect?

That is very much in the Government's mind, as I expect my hon. Friend knows.

Will the hon. Member give an undertaking that his words do not imply that we shall go back to a two-tier system of prices by which the price is determined by who buys and not by the inherent value of the land?

I think I must ask the hon. Member to await the legislation and the White Paper.

Is my hon. Friend aware of large tracts of land, particularly in industrial areas, which are disfigured by spoil heaps? Is he aware that if some initiative were taken by the Government in having talks with the National Coal Board and local authorities it might well be that some of this land could be reclaimed at a reasonable price for recreational purposes?

This is one of the matters which is being considered by the Ministry.

Will the Minister bear in mind the particular difficulties of areas of Kent near Maidstone and Greater London about which I have written to him recently?

We will bear that very much in mind.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will publish the full terms of reference in his instruction to the Water Resources Board to undertake an initial feasibility study of a Morecambe Bay barrage project.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what are the terms of reference of the Water Resources Board in connection with their feasibility studies of the Morecambe Bay Barrage.

Comprehensive terms of reference for the Board's studies of the Morecambe Bay and Solway barrage schemes have now been agreed. I will, with permission, circulate them in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The Board hopes to have appointed consultant engineers and to have begun work on its other studies by the end of the month.

Is the Minister aware that this reply will be very much appreciated in the area? Can he give an assurance that at the same time as these initial feasibility investigations of the barrage are being conducted, preliminary initial investigations will be made of the physical consequences on the areas bordering Morecambe Bay of a barrage in respect of such things as drainage and sewerage?

Yes. One has to keep various studies in mind, but one must get this study going first. We shall see how it develops and, if necessary, pursue other studies.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what progress he has made in assessing national requirements for water conservation; and if he will make a statement.

The river authorities and the Water Resources Board, whose responsibility it is to keep requirements for water conservation under review, assumed their full functions only on 1st April of this year. Nevertheless, I have asked the Board to let me have a preliminary assessment of the situation. I have just received this and am now studying it.

Is the Minister aware that the action of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is in some respects running contrary to his action about water conservation? Will he take into consideration land drainage schemes which may well operate contrary to the best interests of conservation when he is studying this problem?

I will bear in mind what the hon. Member said, but I am not aware of any conflict between the Minister of Agriculture and myself.

Will the Minister bear in mind that water conservation is the crux of the problem and that the nationalisation of water undertakings is wholly irrelevant? Will he give an undertaking that we shall not have the farce over water undertakings which we are witnessing over steel?

On the contrary, I am considering the reorganisation of water supplies for the very reason which the hon. Member raised—that we have to be very concerned about the conservation of water and look forward to the steps which we can take immediately to avoid a crisis in the near future.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what proposals he has for making more land available for building.

First we have to decide what the regional distribution of population will be and then to ensure that enough land is allocated for development in the regions. The regional organisations now established by the Government will help to ensure that this is done and the Land Commission, when it is established, will be able to ensure that the land which is allocated is indeed available for development.

Will the Minister amplify that and say what positive proposals he has for making more land available for housing now?

The best contribution which I can make is to speed forward the proposed legislation on the Land Commission.

Does not the Minister agree that the price of land depends on the amount available? What has any nationalisation legislation to do with that factor unless it confiscates the land?

The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) appreciated the need for increasing the supply of land. He failed to persuade his colleagues that this was necessary and the last Government did nothing about it. We are determined that the Land Commission will help in seeing that a greater supply of land is available.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what action he proposes to take to assist the National Parks Commission in carrying out its duties under the National Parks Act.

I am glad to be able to tell my hon. Friend that an increase in the staff of the National Parks Commission has been authorised and the first of the new staff are already at work. They will help to speed up the present work of the Commission. I am also considering what increase should be made in the Commission's technical planning staff.

I have asked my officials to review the financial procedures to see whether they can be simplified so as to help the National Parks Commission and the Park Planning Authorities.

The National Parks information services have been increased and any further proposals which the National Parks Commission may put forward will be sympathetically considered.

While welcoming very much my right hon. Friend's statement about the increase in staff, may I ask whether he can do anything to press forward the work of establishing national park centres in each of our National Parks? Does he not agree that the biggest help would be to get on with a revision of the National Parks Act?

Yes. I am in touch with the National Parks Commission and we are prepared to give them any assistance that we can give. But the greater issue is that which my hon. Friend mentioned—a new countryside policy. That I shall, hope, present very shortly.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what steps he is taking to restore to useful purposes land sterilised by past industrial spoliation.

I am, of course, concerned with the overall strategy of land use. I shall also contribute advice on techniques and the economic aspects of reclamation and in this I shall be assisted by the Natural Resources Advisory Committee.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the industrial belt of Scotland, particularly in my constituency of Dunbartonshire, there are large areas of land which were spoilt in the 19th century by coal heaps? Now that many pits have closed and old industrial works have been scrapped because they are out of date, will my right hon. Friend do something to help local authorities and others to bring these areas into use?

I am very conscious of this dereliction and I am anxious that my Department should be able to give all the assistance it can in seeing that this problem is tackled very expeditiously.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the very useful survey which was conducted and published about a year ago by the Civic Trust, and will he take that into account when he is considering action?

I am very much aware of it and I take this opportunity to say how obliged we are to the Civic Trust for the work it did.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what steps he is taking to preserve common land for recreational and other purposes.

The essential first step is to establish the facts—what land, in England and Wales, is common or a green, what are the rights of common over it and the identity of the owner of the soil. This will be achieved by the Commons Registration Bill, now before the House, which will pave the way for further legislation to provide wider facilities for public access and enjoyment, and an increase in the productivity of the land.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the need for urgency in this matter in view of the threat of industrialisation and urbanisation of existing common land? Will he also bear in mind the possibility of extending common land by taking over some of the large estates?

The question of extending common land does not arise out of the legislation to which I have referred, but common land can be created either by deed or by local planning authorities. Some of the legislation to which reference has been made this afternoon may help in this connection.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there is a conflict between the unrestricted access of the public on to common land and recreational purposes, and that one cannot have both? Of which is he in favour?

This is one of the reasons why we want, first, to establish the kind of common land that already exists and then to see that the use of it is fairly distributed between the genuine needs of the public for recreation or, in certain cases, for increased productivity. Of course, in regard to access for the less active sports, my right hon. Friend in this Ministry which has been created is in a particularly suitable position to undertake this task.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that while these inquiries are going on a good many commons, particularly the smaller ones, are being ruined—are being damaged by the unlicensed dumping of old building materials and other rubbish? Although it is tie responsibility of the local authority in many cases, cannot some steps be taken to enable chief constables to take more interest in them so that the police could intervene on more occasions?

The hon. Gentleman's question does not arise specifically out of the Answer which I gave. When we get to the second stage of legislation there will be schemes of management for commons so that they may be looked after very much better than they are at present, for today a large number of commons apparently have no one in charge of them. In regard to the other part of the supplementary question, I expect that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Ministry of Housing and Local Government is already actively considering what can be done about the dumping of motor cars and matters of that sort.

Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary elaborate on the answer which he gave to the supplementary question put by his hon. Friend about the identity of ownership of soil, because that seemed to conflict somewhat with what he said on Second Reading?

I am sorry, but I do not quite get the hon. Gentleman's point.

I understood the hon. Gentleman to say that the Bill provided for identifying the ownership of soil, which f understood him to say on Second Reading it did not do. Would he elaborate?

Every endeavour will be made to find the owner. First, schemes can be made to register common rights. I do not think there is any dispute about that. Secondly, owners should register, but where an owner of a common or open space does not register, the Commons Commissioners will use all the means open to them to try to discover the owner. To that extent, where the right is not claimed we will do all we can to discover the identity of the owner of the soil.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what proportion of urban and agricultural land in the United Kingdom is owned by the State and local authorities, respectively.

Acreage figures are available for certain classes of land in the United Kingdom owned by the State and local authorities, but they are not in a form or sufficiently comprehensive to provide the information required. I am aware of the inadequecy of the information about land at present available and the Natural Resources Advisory Committee under the chairmanship of Sir Dudley Stamp is now considering questions of the survey and statistics of land use.

Is it not remarkable that no figures or statistics have been collated of the land owned by the State or the local authorities? Is my right hon. Friend aware that we have had successive Tory Governments for 12 or 13 years and that they have never thought it desirable to collate these statistics?

I agree with my right hon. Friend. There is a remarkable absence of information about land in this country and I hope that my Department will help to repair it.

In view of the somewhat scathing comments that have been made, will the right hon. Gentleman say to what function he proposes to put these statistics when he has them, since every Department and local authority knows its ownership? What value will there be in this collation?

This information is not known generally, apart from particular ownerships. It might be quite useful to know more about land ownership.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the State should have some information about the property it owns?

The State has some information, but it is not adequate.

Is it not the case that the last assembly of such information as my right hon. Friend is seeking took place almost exactly 900 years ago, in the Domesday Book, and is it not time that we had another Domesday Book?

I think that there is a good case for a new Domesday Book. Although there were partial surveys, apart from the Domesday Book, I agree that it is time that we returned to the general question of land ownership.

Does it follow from the right hon. Gentleman's last reply that the policy of the progressive Labour Government is back to Domesday?

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will make a sum of money available to Strathclyde University and to universities in England to enable them to investigate the Solway and Morecambe barrage schemes.

Not at this stage. The Water Resources Board is now conducting feasibility studies into the Morecambe Bay barrage project and jointly with the Scottish Office, into that for Solway Firth. We must first see how these studies progress.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that three Ministries have been making enthusiastic statements about these barrages for six months but that not a penny has been made available to the universities to set up study groups?

I am anxious to encourage co-operation with the universities, but in this particular case we have feasibility studies in hand and we must see how they go. These are properly with the Water Resources Board and the engineering consultants.

Is the Minister aware that in Morecambe Bay there are millions of shrimps? Who will watch their interests?

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some study groups, particularly the one at Strathclyde University, are willing to move now if the Minister will give them the money?

We must decide, first, whether this project is feasible. Studies are in train to determine whether that is so. When that is determined we will certainly look to further studies.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will take steps to encourage the planting of shrubs and trees on new motorways.

The Forestry Commission, for which my right hon. Friend is responsible, already provides extensive assistance to the Ministry of Transport in its very large programme of planting and maintenance of trees on motorways and trunk roads. He will be pleased to continue or extend this service in consultation with his right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Wales and the Minister of Transport.

Does not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that this is an excellent way to avoid dazzle from headlights on dual motorways? May we have an assurance of an early development in this connection?

The Ministry of Transport takes decisions on the materials which are used to combat dazzle. The Forestry Commission is very willing and anxious to discuss with the Ministry of Transport the production in large quantities of any species which are thought suitable for this type of operation.

Would my hon. Friend consult with the Ministry of Transport on this very important matter? Is he aware that the Minister of Transport previously stated that the reason why rose bushes, which are so important in the prevention of accidents in this context, have not been planted before is that not sufficient land was provided between the two carriageways? Will he see that something is done in this direction? Is he—

Order. Would the hon. Member for Leicester, North-West (Sir B. Janner) not agree that it might be wise to stop his supplementary there in order to avoid trespassing on his later Question, No. 57?

Will the hon. Gentleman look particularly at the new spur from London Airport, which is the modern gateway to London?

I do not mind looking at anything, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will realise that my responsibilities are limited in this sense only to providing the material.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In respect of the statement you have just made, I was referring particularly to the provision of trees, which do come within the scope of the Minister's duties. I do not know whether the Minister of Transport himself can provide the trees without my right hon. Friend's assistance; that is why I asked the question.

I do not wish to mislead the hon. Member. I heard so much about the roses. We will have to exclude them. Meantime, I call Mr. Geoffrey Wilson, and will come back to the hon. Gentleman.

Will the Cabinet be very cautious about any policy of planting trees on the edges of the motorway, because German experience was that such trees were apt to have a soporific effect, and caused a number of accidents?

I do not think that I should comment on the subject any further. I have defined the limitation of my interest in it.

Sir Barnett Janner—if he will dodge the subject of rosa multi-flora Japonica bushes, and the progress made relative to central barriers.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what is the acreage of farming land which he estimates will be required annually in the next three years for industrial and domestic building and other non-agricultural use.

I understand that the annual change of land in England and Wales from agriculture to all other purposes as shown in the Agricultural Census returns has averaged over 57,000 acres in the five years 1959–60 to 1963–64. Having regard to current policies, I see no reason to expect any marked change in this rate over the next three years.

What steps is the Minister taking to see that the best agricultural land is not used for building purposes, and that the least productive land is used for building purposes?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are already procedures for examining the respective merits of different uses for development but, in addition to that, the regional administrative machinery, whereby, in time, long-term designation of land use will be possible, will go a long way to preventing many of the conflicts that have sometimes arisen in the past.

As the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend is not responsible for planning decisions, will the Parliamentary Secretary tell me how the Minister, in fact, carries out this policy?

I am very surprised that the right hon. Gentleman does not seem to have understood the regional setup in the Ministry, and the fact that my right hon. Friend has representatives upon the regional bodies which will be discharging this function of long-term land designation.

Is the Minister aware that, apart from agricultural land, there are large areas of rural land covered by scrub and silver birch, and that owing to the negative attitude of many rural planning authorities, this land is, in fact, sterilised.

This may well be the case. I think that the sort of machinery I have outlined will help to solve some of these problems, and get the best use of land for the respective purposes we have in mind.

Will the Minister consider consulting his right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture to see that he understands that land that is being covered with buildings in the South might well be replaced by reasonable grants for the reclamation of land in the Highlands and elsewhere?

I am quite sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will take note of the hon. Gentleman's comment.

Was the figure given by the hon. Gentleman an England and Wales figure or a United Kingdom figure?

It was an England and Wales figure.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what representations have been made to him about an Exchequer contribution to the National Trust's appeal for funds to help to safeguard the beauty of the coastline, called "Enterprise Neptune"; and whether he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I have received representations from the National Trust about "Enterprise Neptune", and we have informed the Trust that we are ready to recommend to Parliament that an Exchequer contribution of £250,000 be given. Provision will be made in the Estimates in due course. I hope that this contribution will be a substantial encouragement at the outset to those organising the appeal, and that it will stimulate the generosity of other donors. I am glad to make this contribution as part of the wider policy for the countryside on which I am now working.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the satisfaction and pleasure with which his Answer will be received in all parts of the House, and certainly by the National Trust and those who are organising this very worth-while venture? Can he say whether he is making progress in his own studies of coastline policy and the preservation of the coastline, and how this project fits in with his wider consideration?

We are obliged to my hon. Friend for his reference to the National Trust. The coast will most clearly be an essential part of any countryside policy, and in the countryside policy on which I am now working the coast will have a prominent part. We regard the work of the National Trust as being part and parcel of what we wish to do about the coast of Britain.

Will this £¼ million come out of the National Land Fund, because is not this object precisely what the late Hugh Dalton had in mind when he originally established that Fund? Has the right hon. Gentleman an eye on it as a potential source for this sort of work?

I cannot assure the right hon. Gentleman that this comes from the Land Fund, but I am much obliged to him for calling my attention to that Fund.

As a member of the executive of the National Trust, may I add my thanks and those of the National Trust? May I also ask whether, in addition, my right hon. Friend hopes to try to make available some of the surplus Service Departments land on the coastline, which will help towards the same objective?

The land in the hands of the Services is under constant review.

What is the Minister doing to stop planning permission being given in coastal areas where this will be obviously detrimental to the beauty of the coastline?

That is a matter for the Ministry of Housing, but it is also a matter for me, and it is being considered in the context of the countryside policy.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources what progress he has made in setting up the machinery that he envisages as necessary to enable him to contribute advice and information on the most effective use of land and other natural resources in relation to national and regional planning.

The Advisory Committee on Natural Resources, the setting up of which I announced on 25th March, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman), has met under Sir Dudley Stamp and is considering a number of questions which I have referred to it. These include the provision of information and the development of methodological techniques relating to use of land and other natural resources. A small mixed unit of administrative and professional staff is being set up in my Department, to service the Advisory Committee, to organise the necessary links with academic and other institutions, and to assist me in participating in national and regional planning.

In view of the rather wide area of work which the right hon. Gentleman has given this Advisory Committee to do, will he, or it, be publishing an annual report to give some indication to Parliament of what the results of its investigations are?

I will certainly consider this, but I doubt whether there will be annual reports. But there will certainly be publication of reports.

asked the Minister of Land and Natural Resources if he will make a statement describing his plans for the development of techniques of comparative evaluation of land uses, and giving an indication to the House of the nature of the techniques involved.

At my request, Sir Dudley Stamp's Committee has agreed to study certain aspects of the comparative evaluation of land uses. It would be premature for me in advance of its advice to go into detail, but the Committee is at present considering the application of cost/benefit analysis to such factors as amenity.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that this phrase about the techniques of comparative evaluation of land usage is open to a large variety of interpretations, and can he give some idea of the interpretation he himself puts on it, bearing in mind that the country will be interested to know exactly what this is all about?

I think that the best way to give a definition is by way of illustration, which I have done. Let me say at once that I am sure that the hon. Gentleman appreciates the importance of this sort of work being done. If he has any proposals or suggestions to make, I shall be very happy to discuss them with him.

May I press the right hon. Gentleman a little further in that respect? He talks about cost analysis in relation to amenity. Again, it is not immediately obvious how one goes about it and what we do with the answer when we get it. Will the Minister give us a little more information?

Several Questions have been answered about barrages. One has to consider not only the use of a barrage, but the effect it has on the environment. This is the sort of question to bear in mind. One also has to think of the way in which to evaluate this. Other countries have made considerable use of this sort of technique. It is appalling that this country has been so far behind in this respect.

In reference to his last reply, will the right hon. Gentleman say why he is not taking into account the effect on agricultural land in the first study of the Morecambe barrage scheme?

Because the first study is a feasibility study to see whether it is feasible for the conservation of water. Until this is determined we cannot go on to consider the other questions.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what acoustic aids and other facilities are available for disabled persons in wheeled chairs to listen to debates from the Strangers' Gallery.

A miniature loud speaker has now been installed in the panelling at the back of the Strangers' Gallery where disabled persons in wheelchairs are accommodated.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that there are two main difficulties about bringing a disabled person in a wheeled chair to hear a debate in this House? The first is that one is not allowed to park a disabled person's car in New Palace Yard, which involves the expense and delay of having a taxi to bring such a person in and out. The second was, when I put down this Question, that there was no microphone through which a disabled person could hear a debate. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for having a microphone put in which enables one disabled person to hear a debate in this House.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what changes have been made since 15th October, 1964, in the composition and staffing of the Government's pool of cars, and in the public cost thereof.

Since 15th October the Government Car Service fleet has increased by 10 to a total of 381 vehicles, of which five are due for disposal. The number of staff has increased by 15 to 369. The annual cost is now £442,000 compared with £406,000. Of this about £10,000 of the increase is due to higher wages fixed by trade union agreements.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the increase is proportionate to the increase in the number of Ministers?

I should say it is, but this is a trend which has been going on all the time. I could easily cite the figures for 13 years and show how they have gone up all the time. For instance, I notice that there were 18—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer the question."] I answer a question under the guidance of Mr. Speaker, not that of hon. Members opposite. This is not a matter on which hon. Members opposite should make implied charges that we are not so fastidious as were our predecessors. In 1952 18 cars were allocated, in 1959 28 were allocated. The present figure shows a trend.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there is any other European country in which Ministers are not provided with a car and a driver?

I cannot say whether there are any, but hon. Members who go abroad will see how much better members of other legislatures are treated compared with those in this country. There was a famous occasion when the right hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Brooke) led a delegation of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and had to borrow a car locally.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what decision has now been made on the future of Admiralty House.

No final decision has been taken.

How much more delay will there be before the right hon. Gentleman comes to a decision? Many of us are anxious to know whether the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs will move into Admiralty House since he is all at sea or whether he will be moved into Steel House.

I take it that part of that supplementary question is completely out of order. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I cannot understand the enthusiasm or solicitude of hon. Members opposite for the comfort of the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the delay in coming to a decision about the future of Admiralty House is because the previous occupant left such a mess behind?

When my right hon. Friend comes to a decision, will he be good enough to bear in mind the importance of keeping together the extremely valuable and historical collection of furniture in Admiralty House?

Questions about the tenant for Admiralty House are not for me but for the Prime Minister.

Is not the real reason for the delay that the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs may find that he is without a job and that someone is installed in his place within a short time?

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is yet able to lay before Parliament the plans for the redevelopment of the Whitehall area.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he proposes to publish the reports presented to him by Sir Leslie Martin and Professor Buchanan.

I am now considering the reports on the Whitehall area which I recently received from Sir Leslie Martin and Professor Buchanan and will make a further statement just as soon as I can.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he ensure that not a brick is touched in this heart of the Commonwealth until this House and the public outside have had an opportunity to pronounce upon the matter? Often in the past London citizens have awakened—too late—after each fresh outrage has been perpetrated. May I refer the right hon. Gentleman to a letter in which I ventured to tender some advice to his predecessor on this subject on 17th July last?

I have been very particular about this. I can assure the hon. Member and the House that any published document will be available to hon. Members before it is available to anyone else, but I cannot at this stage commit myself to a date. Because I say that, to all that follows from the hon. Member's apprehensions this is the best assurance I can give now.

Does my right hon. Friend take note that there appears to be a great deal of building going on at the top end of Whitehall? What is that in aid of? Is it part of the permanent future development plan of the Whitehall area?

I do not think that arises from this Question, but perhaps we are not thinking of the same building.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is now taking to promote the industrialisation of building in the light of the recent appraisal of the problem presented to the Royal Institute of British Architects, a copy of which has been sent to him.

Many of the recommendations of the report are already accepted and acted upon in this and and other Departments. I am examining its detailed conclusions to see if further action is called for.

Is not this a particularly opportune moment to press on with the industrialisation of building to take up some of the gap left by the wholesale failure of the Government's housing policy?

The industrialisation of building has been proceeding smoothly for some time. The answer to the second part of the supplementary question is, "No, Sir".

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he is aware that the German Federal Republic expect to reach a house building target of 700,000 houses this year; what studies his Department are making of European building methods with a view to adapting them where applicable to British conditions; and if he will seek to send a Parliamentary delegation to examine European housing standards and targets.

I understand that the West German Housing Minister recently announced a target of 600,000 dwelling for 1965.

We continue to study and apply European building methods wherever we think such methods will be helpful to the British building industry.

I welcome my hon. Friend's interest in these matters, and will gladly consider with those concerned the possibility of a Parliamentary delegation.

I thank my hon. Friend for the little piece of hope he held out at the end, that a delegation to Western Germany may be considered. On my information the West Germans expect to build nearly 700,000 houses in 1965. This will bring the total over the last three years to almost 2 million. Does not my hon. Friend think that something may be available in Germany which we have not caught on to here and which will greatly increase our housing output?

Conditions are very different in Germany. My Department and other Departments in the Government take every note they can of matters that help. I doubt whether a direct comparison is as useful as my hon. Friend thinks.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many of the impressive total of houses built in Germany he mentioned are built by public and how many by private enterprise?

No, not without notice.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the figure which was published by the West German Government of houses completed last year was 623,000? Can my hon. Friend say why the Conservative Government did not get anywhere near that figure in 13 years' rule?

I have a feeling that at certain stages of the last Administration the housebuilding programme was used as a political card.

Do these German figures apply to houses or to housing units?

"Housing units" was the phrase I originally had, but "dwellings" sounded nicer.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance if National Assistance Board officers verify the actual rent charged for accommodation; and if this information is made available on request to the local rent tribunals.

The answer to the first part of the Question is "Yes", Sir. As regards the second part, information given by a person in connection with his application is regarded as confidential, but the Board would be prepared to make the information given about rent available to a rent tribunal on request if the applicant agreed.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer. Does he realise that in many parts of the country, particularly in my constituency of Glasgow, Woodside, many people do not have a rent book. In many cases the landlord has refused to provide one. They are on National Assistance. Can my hon. Friend give me any details of the type of verification or confirmation of the rent charged which takes place?

Where an applicant for assistance does not have a rent book, he is asked to obtain one from his landlord or at least to get a receipt for the rent he is paying. Failing this, the Board's officer may be able to obtain confirmation of the rent paid from the landlord or the agent.

Will my hon. Friend ask the National Assistance Board to prepare annually accurate figures showing how much of the National Assistance grant is being paid by way of rent?

My right hon. Friend will have heard my hon. Friend's supplementary question.

asked the Minister of Health if he has yet completed his consideration of the Report of the Standing Medical Advisory Committee, E/155/1, on the standardisation of medical records; and if he will make a statement.

The Report will be published shortly, and I shall be asking hospitals to adopt its recommendations.

When my right hon. Friend is considering the standardisation of hospital records, will he examine the possibility of having patients' records in the form of an identity card when the patient is suffering from a complaint which may be difficult to treat? If such a person is involved in an accident, he may be in danger from there being no knowledge of what previous treatment he has been given.

I will certainly consider what my hon. Friend has suggested. It is a fact that the Report favours standardisation of hospital medical records and a number of its specific recommendations are directed to that end. Perhaps I could take this opportunity of thanking the members of the Sub-Committee of the Standing Medical Advisory Committee for the hard work and the enthusiasm which went into the production of this Report.

asked the Minister of Health what support he will give to the Nottingham University study on the recruitment, training and demand for physiotherapists, radiographers, dieticians, occupational therapists and orthoptists; if he will request the University to supply him with a copy of this report; and if he will make a statement.

My Department has given all the co-operation and guidance requested by the university; the study will take some time yet, but when it is completed I shall be getting a copy of the report.

May I ask my right hon. Friend not to await the report before coming forward with definite proposals to increase recruitment in all these professions supplementary to medicine, in view of the urgent need there is in most of these specialties?

Efforts of that kind need not await the production of this report, but I am sure that the report when it comes will be a great assistance to us.

Will my right hon. Friend make it quite clear that the phraseology of this Question—

"if he will request the University to supply him with a copy of this report"

does not imply that there is any secrecy about it and that it was always intended that he should receive a copy of it?

Yes, I am aware of that. It is a study sponsored by the Nuffield Provincial Hospitals Trust and there has been no request to my Department for funds.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will take steps to prevent certain employers from deliberately dismissing workers before the Redundancy Payments Bill becomes operative in order to avoid such payments.

My right hon. Friend does not expect that this will be a serious problem but he will watch the situation.

I thank the Parliamentary Secretary for that Answer. To prevent this kind of victimisation taking place, will he do everything possible to get the Bill through and into operation quickly? Could he give the House any idea how soon this will be?