asked the Minister of Aviation if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to British European Airways to start talks with European airlines with a view to setting up an hourly shuttle service between European capitals and London, on which there is no need to book.

This is a matter for the airline. British European Airways takes the view that it would only be an economic proposition with prematurely obsolescent aircraft, which it does not have.

Is the Minister aware that these services would be more like bus services, on which there would be no need to book? If the Americans can do it, why cannot we do it? Will he have another look at this to see whether we can have the up-to-date air services which exist on the other side of the Atlantic and which people want instead of champagne and smoked salmon?

I am well aware of the establishment of shuttle services on a limited number of routes in the United States. These are operated with old aircraft, mostly Super Constellations, which B.E.A. does not itself possess. I am anxious that B.E.A. should do what it can—and I am sure that the Corporation is—to improve services on the Paris and other routes.

Has any census been taken of passenger possibilities on these routes?

Market research is constantly done, but I do not know whether there are details, and it would be difficult to obtain detailed figures, of what would be the response to shuttle services.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is extremely doubtful whether these services in the United States pay even with the use of obsolescent aircraft and that the fares on the shuttle services are more than the minimum tourist fares?

Yes, I am aware of both those points.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now make a statement on Anglo-French co-operation over the proposed joint versatile light variable geometry aircraft, helicopters and an airborne early-warning plane.

On the variable geometry aircraft I would refer the hon. Member to the statement made to the House by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence on Monday, 17th May. Studies are continuing, but no decisions have yet been made, on possible joint arrangements for helicopters and an airborne early-warning aircraft.

While recognising the advantages which flow from co-operation across the frontiers, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman also to recognise that over-dependence on too many of these joint foreign projects for our defence equipment is causing some anxiety, I believe on both sides of the House?

Of course one wants to avoid over-dependence, but at present over-dependence is less of a menace than was continuing with a position in which we were making too complicated projects for too limited a market and carrying the whole of the R. and D. ourselves.

Is it a fact that the French Government would like the variable geometry aircraft to fly for the first time about 1973 and come into service before 1975? Is it also a fact that when this aircraft comes into service it will be little advanced in its performance capabilities from the TSR2 which the right hon. Gentleman has scrapped?

It is the case that the French Government requirement may be a little earlier than ours, but there is no difficulty between us about agreeing the dates. On capability; it will be quite a different aircraft, very much lighter in weight than the TSR2 and there will be no comparison.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say something more about the Anglo-French variable geometry fighter project? Is there not a grave danger that Boeing, together with the Germans, will be producing a swing-wing V.T.O.L. fighter which will come on the market earlier than this project?

No. The Anglo-French project is worth while and I believe that it will have a good market.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many United States Boeing 707–320C convertible aircraft are to be purchased by British Overseas Airways Corporation under their existing option for six of these aircraft, in addition to the two which the Corporation has already purchased.

As a purely precautionary measure, British Overseas Airways Corporation has arranged an option on six Boeing 707–336C freighters in case its expanding cargo traffic should call for additions to its fleet. My approval would be necessary before this option could be taken up, and this has not been asked for.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the same job would be done by the VC10 convertible version produced by the British Aircraft Corporation? Would he not feel that the purchase of these would be preferable to the purchase of the American version, in order first of all to help home projects and secondly to save much-needed dollars?

No, I have no idea whether B.O.A.C.'s cargo trade would expand at the rate that it will need to take up this option. One is some distance from that at the present time, but when the question of approving the purchase of the two freighters arose one had to look at the question of whether the VC10 was a substitute, and excellent though the VC10 is as a passenger plane there were certain difficulties about it as a freighter.

Do I gather that B.O.A.C. would have required these aircraft freighters if the market developed before a stretched super VC10 was available. Is it therefore a question of time?

I think it is difficult to measure what B.O.A.C.'s requirements would be, but there are indications that cargo freight will expand very fast. This would be before the question of a stretched VC10 arose.

Can the Minister tell the House what the cost, in dollars, would be of these new aircraft?

No, because I have not been asked to approve any purchase. But before being asked to approve it I should look very carefully indeed at the cost. This option does not commit B.O.A.C. in any way and does not commit Her Majesty's Government in any way.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether the Phantom aircraft to be purchased from the United States of America will be overhauled in this country.

Yes, Sir.

The House will be glad to hear what the Minister says. Is this absolutely firm and is there any question at all of any American firm getting work for checks on these aircraft?

The answer to the first part is "Yes" and to the second part "No".

asked the Minister of Aviation the latest estimated cost of each Phantom aircraft on order; and how this compares with the original estimate.

asked the Minister of Aviation what escalation there has been in the estimates for the United States Phantom aircraft since these were ordered first for the Royal Navy and secondly for the Royal Air Force; what is the total increase in cost; and what steps are being taken to make sure that there is no escalation on the option taken to buy F111 Mark II.

asked the Minister of Aviation the present estimated cost of the Phantom aircraft ordered for the Royal Air Force; and how this compares with the original estimate.

As the House knows it is not the practice to disclose actual figures, but there have been some increases in the estimated costs for each version since the original decisions were taken. These increases have been due mainly to additional costs of meeting our special design requirements and of the supply of British engines and equipment.

Although I am grateful to the Minister for that detailed reply, may I ask whether there is not a danger that the cost of this aircraft may well exceed what it would have cost the British aircraft industry to produce an equivalent aircraft? Furthermore, in view of the fact that, thanks to the efforts of the Government, our own aircraft industry is now largely dismantled, even if the costs were to be doubled again we should surely have no alternative but to purchase this aircraft.

No, Sir. There is no question whatever of the costs exceeding the comparable level. A powerful factor was the time scale. I must, however, point out that the increased costs are arising to much the greatest extent from our determination to install British engines and equipment in these aircraft.

Would not the Minister agree that as the F111 Mark II is still not a positive project, nor has it been ordered, it would have been wise to keep the TSR2 running, and certainly flying, so that he would be in a position to negotiate a hard bargain at a fixed price with his American competitors for this aircraft? Has not the right hon. Gentleman weakened our whole negotiating position by not only abolishing the TSR2 and preventing it from flying, but destroying both the tools and the jigs and thus destroying this aircraft for good and all?

No, Sir. I do not believe for a moment that it would have been right to have postponed a decision and gone on at the very high rate of cost of keeping the TSR2 problem going. The trouble with the TSR2 was that the decision was postponed for far too long as it was.

Is it not the case that despite the Minister's desire, confirmed by his Ministry to the aircraft industry on 28th April, 1965, that British equipment should be put in the Phantoms, the Americans are showing great reluctance to buy British equipment, and where they show keenness to do so, they are charged the exorbitant royalty of 10 per cent. for British equipment? Will my right hon. Friend use his good offices to encourage the Americans to buy British equipment, which will give employment to British aircraft workers?

We are not finding these difficulties. Our information does not bear out what my hon. Friend has told us. There are considerable difficulties associated with time scale and cost, and we are doing our best to overcome these.

With regard to the Phantoms, can the Minister give us any idea whether the increase in costs above the original estimate arises largely in respect of expenditure with British firms over here fitting British engines, or whether it is due to increases in dollar costs owing to the American modification of the airframe?

I should not like to give an exact breakdown, but it is known that the greater part of this is likely to arise from expenditure in this country.

In the interests of British prestige and of the British aircraft industry, will my right hon. Friend repudiate emphatically the statement made by the hon. Gentleman that the British aircraft industry is being dismantled?

Yes, Sir, most certainly. One has got so used to these statements that it hardly seems worth while contradicting them, but I do so most heartily.

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Aviation which firm or firms have been awarded the contract for the conversion work on Phantom II.

The aircraft are being built to our requirements by the McDonnell Aircraft Corporation and the question of a contract for conversion does not arise.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the contract for maintaining and servicing these aircraft will be placed in this country, and in placing it will he consider the needs of Short Bros. and Harland?

The contract will be placed in this country and I shall bear in mind the interests of Short Bros. and Harland. I cannot go further than that.

Is it not a fact that conversion work will have to take place to fit the reconnaissance parts to the Phantom aircraft to provide the Royal Air Force with an effective reconnaissance aircraft which will be denied to it unless a replacement is decided on for the TSR2?

It is not conversion work in the proper sense. The reconnaisance parts will be fitted on the assembly line.

asked the Minister of Aviation what guidance he has given to the Aviation industry on research into future projects for military transport and fighter aircraft.

Until the defence review is complete, research into future projects for military transport and fighter aircraft will continue on present lines.

Does the Minister realise that we have missed a whole generation on these types of aircraft? If we are to remain at all competitive in the defence field the present expenditure on design projects is totally inadequate to maintain the design staff. We are still losing important design staff to America and South Africa. Will the right hon. Gentleman really do his best to hurry up this report and see that adequate work is given to the industry?

The hon. Member asked me about research projects. He seems to be moving over to the question of design within the firms.

Is the Minister aware that this country's capacity for carrying out this sort of research and design is diminishing? In my constituency at this moment an American agent is at work conducting a high-pressure recruiting campaign on men who were working on the TSR2, and will he give the House an assurance that he does not regard this situation as being one for self-satisfaction and smugness on his part?

I certainly do not regard it as one giving rise to self-satisfaction and smugness, though I also noticed that the recuriting agent was himself an English aircraft worker who had left this country two years ago.

As the 1127 which is going into production is a subsonic aircraft, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether there is a research project for an aircraft of supersonic capabilities which will be able to protect the 1127 when in operation.

Of course. The VG aircraft will be supersonic.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will initiate research into the development of a light aircraft suitable for operation in the seven crofting counties.

There are already a number of British aircraft which can operate into existing airfields in the seven crofting counties and at least one British aircraft at present under development could use the smallest airstrip.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that while this is true I was thinking more in terms of smaller landing strips? Is he aware that there is quite a wide demand in other parts of the world, in Africa and Australasia, for example, for light aircraft of the kind which would suit this requirement? Will he assure me that the Ministry will do its best to ensure that the development of light aircraft will be encouraged in this country? I think the Americans are liable to run away with this, so that this would meet a domestic requirement and possibly at the same time meet an export requirement.

That is our wish. There are several new exciting developments going ahead, and at least one of these will be for an aircraft that will be able to use extremely small airfields.

asked the Minister of Aviation what proposals or representations he has received for the construction of new landing strips within the seven crofting counties.

I know of a number of projected new airstrips in the crofting counties, and I have written to the hon. Member giving detailed information. I welcome the initiative shown by the local authorities and I shall continue to put my Department's technical advice at their disposal.

While I thank the right hon. Gentleman for sending me this letter, may I ask whether he would agree that it would be a better thing for the Ministry to take a firmer initiative in this? As he said in his Answer, the initiative has come from the county councils, and if we are to build up a network of feeder aircraft in the seven crofting counties it would be more desirable that there should be some co-ordination from the centre so that they will not appear merely where there is a local demand.

I believe that the system we have now is the correct one. The county councils take the initiative and we will then give them all possible assistance. Some financial assistance can be provided, and we can also give direct practical assistance in the construction of airstrips.

Will the Minister resist these requests to put Government money into this sort of local affair and leave it to the local demand for these airstrips?

No. We are quite prepared to do this, because we appreciate the value, particularly in Scotland, of these small airstrips. We will give whatever assistance we can, providing the initiative comes from Scotland.

asked the Minister of Aviation, if he will use the internationally-recognised term, "Transit", instead of, "Transfer", on all notices at London's airports which refer to air travellers in transit.

Yes, Sir. The terms "Transit" and "Transfer" have distinct internationally recognised meanings. Each is already used as appropriate, except where clarity of direction is best obtained by the single sign "Transfer".

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that when the foreign traveller arrives in London Airport and has a choice of going into immigration or to transit, instead of the internationally accepted term "Transit" he is met with the term "Transfer"? Those travellers who do not know English very well—good old English terms— really should be met with the word "Transit" which is universally understood.

The two signs are approved by the International Air Transport Association. "Transfer" means transfer from one flight to another—another aeroplane altogether—and the airlines themselves have asked that this sign, on its own, should be used, particularly in the Europa Building at Heathrow, so that there will not be any confusion for passengers who do not apply in this particular case, where most transfers take place.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will now make a statement on the steps he is taking with regard to the development of a British satellite launcher.

As I informed the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. David Price) on 17th March last, a review of United Kingdom interests in space is being undertaken. I cannot make a statement until this review is more advanced.

Would the Minister agree that it is in Britain's interests to have a medium thrust launcher for the development of a purely British satellite?

We will certainly take that fully into account.

Is the Minister aware that the space committee of the Western European Union has asked his Ministry for details of our satellite programme and that it got the details very swiftly and efficiently, but the report is now held up in the Foreign Office? Would he now press the right hon. Gentleman the Foreign Secretary to give details as soon as possible to the Western European Union?

I will happily press my right hon. Friend to see that the matters which have gone through my Department are not held up in this way.

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will do his best, as soon as possible, to satisfy the demand there is for some information about what this country is proposing in the next generation of space satellites launcher development, because there is a great deal of interest and anxiety lest we might be left behind?

I will indeed. Work is of course continuing on E.L.D.O. at the present time, and preliminary work is being done on a small satellite launcher, sometimes called Black Arrow. Work is also going on at both Westlands and Bristol Siddeley, and I am aware that as soon as it is reasonably practical a more comprehensive statement will be desirable.

asked the Minister of Aviation how many British European Airways flights have taken off within five minutes of the advertised time of departure in the last six months; and how many have not.

British European Airways tells me that in the six autumn and winter months from October, 1964, to March, 1965, some 35,000 of its flights departed within five minutes of the advertised time, while the remaining 23,000 did not.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is very far from being the case in flights from Scotland and that fully 50 per cent. of the flights take off late? Is he also aware that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with certain aspects of the service even among his hon. Friends? Will he take steps to ensure that B.E.A. is kept up to the mark and that it tries to provide an efficient service which pleases the customer as well as itself?

In view of the very important distribution of constituencies in Scotland, I share the hon. Gentleman's anxiety that there should be efficient air communications between the South and Scotland. I have not the details with me of the punctuality of flights to Scotland, but I will see that they are obtained and sent to him.

Can my hon. Friend say how this record compares with that of other international airlines serving international as opposed to regional routes to Scotland?

The performance of B.E.A. is about the same as that of the other major airlines in Europe.

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that, irrespective of what he has said, late departures are about 40 per cent. of the total B.E.A. flights and that much potential traffic is lost to overseas airlines, particularly Air France, because potential customers will not use these delayed flights?

I cannot accept that, because the load factors of B.E.A. compare extremely well with those of its competitors.

Is my hon. Friend aware that as a regular traveller on B.E.A. for 20 years I pay tribute to the time-keeping qualities of its service? Is he also aware that in civil flying the governing factor is safety and that nothing must give way to that?

I will see that my hon. Friend's remarks are conveyed to B.E.A. I am sure that they will be appreciated.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the best way of keeping B.E.A. up to the mark, particularly with regard to its services to Scotland, would be to encourage competition with the independent airlines? Would he therefore reverse his right hon. Friend's policy on this matter?

That arises on a later Question, I think.

asked the Minister of Aviation what representations he received from private British airlines before directing the Air Transport Licensing Board to refuse an application for cargo routes to the Far East.

Before I directed the Board to refuse certain parts of the application, I warned the applicants that I was considering such a direction. I was left in no doubt of the importance attached to the applications and I was urged that the direction should be issued quickly so that applicants could consider their position. As the hon. Member will be aware, the Board, with agreement of the parties concerned, deferred the hearings so that this could be done.

Is it not quite wrong that the Minister should refuse an application of this nature even before it has been submitted and the evidence heard? Further, would not he agree that, admirable though the service is provided by B.O.A.C., Air India and Qantas, in order to assist British exporters there is a real need of a specialised freight service to Australia and the Far East?

No, Sir. It was made absolutely clear by the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys), when he introduced the Air Licensing Bill which became the Air Licensing Act, 1960, that the power to refuse applications submitted to the Board remained with the Minister and was an essential power when the Minister was convinced that to try to obtain the foreign traffic rights would be inexpedient and against the interests of British aviation as a whole. I was convinced in this case that it would have done grave damage to the future of the B.O.A.C.-Air India-Qantas pool, apart from other difficulties. In these circumstances, I would merely have been wasting the time of a great number of people by allowing the applications to be put to the Board.

asked the Minister of Aviation what arrangements he is making for consultation between Messrs. Arthur D. Little and the Plowden Committee before the presentation of their respective reports on the part to be played by Short Brothers and Harland in the aircraft industry, and on suitable avenues for diversification of the company's activities.

The Government will be kept informed of progress in the investigations by A. D. Little Ltd. into redeployment at Shorts, and by Lord Plowden's Committee of Inquiry into the aircraft industry where this touches on Shorts. My right hon. Friend, the First Secretary of State and myself, will ensure that any information emerging from the inquiries of one of these bodies which affects the work of the other is promptly passed across.

Does not the Minister feel that it would be better if there were direct co-operation between these two Committees, and, in view of the progress made at Shorts with existing work, will he expedite the presentation and putting into effect of the reports of these two bodies?

As soon as the reports are received—one by myself and one by my right hon. Friend—we will expedite putting them into operation. It is better to work it in that way because, although the A. D. Little report is concerned entirely with Shorts, while it is an important part, Shorts is only a very small part of the Plowden Committee's report.

asked the Minister of Aviation what progress he has new made in his support of an air service for Dundee.

The Lord Provost's latest suggestions to me in connection with such a service were for assistance towards the airport facilities. Unfortunately, as I have explained to the Lord Provost, the grant requested lies well outside the scope of any Government assistance available towards aerodromes or aerodrome equipment.

Would the hon. Gentleman urge his right hon. Friend the Minister to look at this matter again? Would not he agree that it is deplorable that Dundee, as the third major industrial city of Scotland, should continue to have no air service? Would not he further agree that we are unlikely to get this service unless the Government are prepared to underwrite the cost during the period of trials when we need to find out whether the service can be made attractive for local users?

I have gone into this matter with considerable care, and I was very pleased to meet the representatives from Dundee to discuss it with them at some length. But their proposal would entail a subsidy, and as we have not found ourselves in a position to provide such a subsidy, we asked Dundee to look again at the proposals which they put to us. If we introduced a subsidy for Dundee, there would be great demand for one from elsewhere.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Aviation what were the circumstances in which Mr. Tony Murphy secured employment in his Department with the United Kingdom Central Codification Authority; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Murphy has not been employed with the Authority in question, nor elsewhere in my Department. He worked for two days for a private firm which has offices in the same building as the Authority. The Authority is concerned with stores classification and its work is not sensitive from a security point of view.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but does he not agree that it was the most extraordinary story which this member of the Committee of 100 was permitted to publish, making most grave allegations of a lack of security in his Department? Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this statement of a member of the Committee of 100 should be treated as having the same lack of relevance as most of the other statements which it makes?

I agree that it is a most extraordinary story, but I should have thought that the best possible way to treat it as irrelevant was not to put down a Question.

Mr. Shepherd.

Is not the Minister aware that the only way to establish the facts is to ask a Question?

Order. Inspired by these comments, I have gone so far as to call the next Question.

asked the Minister of Aviation what was the approximate value of charter work obtained by foreign companies in respect of passengers and cargo originating in the United Kingdom for the latest available year.

I have no information about the monetary value of the air charter work obtained by foreign companies, but 291,000 passengers and 5,200 short tons of cargo were carried from the United Kingdom in foreign chartered aircraft during 1964. The figure for passengers includes visiting tourists returning to their own country as well as passengers originating here.

Is the hon. Gentleman able to say what is the corresponding advantage gained in similar circumstances by British charter firms? If it is very small, will he say what steps he is taking to improve the possibilities for our charterers?

British companies are carrying two-thirds of the passenger loads and about half the cargo loads. Therefore, we come out of this fairly well. The advantage is that we obtain rights for our airlines to fly, and if we denied facilities to foreign charter firms we would well find our own firms denied facilities elsewhere.

The object of my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Shepherd) was to try to discover whether, in the hon. Gentleman's view, the rights which we obtain in compensation for the rights which we give to foreign companies provide an adequate return to the British economy. Could the hon. Gentleman tell us whether this is so?

We have earned £20 million in each of the last four years in our Civil Aviation Accounts. The statistics therefore show that as a country we come out of this extremely well. We continue, however, to keep the matter under close examination.

Has the present Government's more liberal attitude to inclusive tour licences had any effect in this matter? Will the hon. Gentleman be obtaining figures to show the relevant proportion of inclusive tour traffic carried by British operators this year for comparison with the figures which he has already given for last year?

It is too soon to get a complete assessment but we will, of course, be obtaining all the facts we can.

asked the Minister of Aviation the average cost and the average revenue per mile to British European Airways on domestic and European routes, respectively.

The following are the provisional figures for the year ended 31st March, 1965. On the domestic routes, the average costs per seat-mile were 3·82 pence, and the average revenue 3·54 pence; on the international routes they were 3·54 and 3·76 pence, respectively.

Is the Minister aware that the London—Belfast route is a profitable one and that during the summer and autumn it is difficult to get places on the aircraft? Will he take steps to see that this situation is improved?

I will certainly draw the hon. Member's observations to the attention of B.E.A.

Is it fair to assume that either in my hon. Friend's Department or in the B.E.A. organisation there is statistical control to compare these figures with those of other international airlines? If I put down a Question, will my hon. Friend be able to give a comparison?

Comparisons which we have made show that B.E.A's performance is extremely good. We think that the Corporation is just as efficient in its domestic routes as in its international routes.

asked the Minister of Aviation on what British domestic routes independent airlines are now operating scheduled services.

As the list is a long one, made up of more than 70 routes, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is it not unfortunate that the independents should have ceased to operate to areas which need industrial development and the furtherance of tourism? Furthermore, is it not true that if more independents had been operating, vast inconvenience and even suffering might have been avoided for many thousands of the British public who were the victims of the vicious strike at Whitsun?

As I pointed out to the Rouse after I made my statement in February, it was entirely by the choice of the independent airline concerned that it withdrew from the routes in question. Although that might have been received with scepticism, as it was, by right hon. and hon. Members at the time, I imagine that they now feel less scepticism at the fact that in the complete absence of any change of policy by myself, the independent operator in question has now announced his return to the routes from 1st July.

Is not the Minister aware that his own statement that he would not grant increased frequencies to these independent operators caused them to withdraw from these routes and that unless they are persuaded to return to them, we cannot hope to have a healthy aircraft industry?

As I have pointed out, it has been stated by British Eagle—if Press reports are correct—that it is returning to the London-Glasgow route on 5th July. I believe that this operator has indicated that he will also return to the other routes.

At what frequency?

At frequencies which he formerly enjoyed under the previous Administration and which I have not restricted. The choice of whether to operate those frequencies was in February, and still is today, a choice for the operator.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he is aware that certain officials in his Department who were employed in positions on lower grades in accordance with redundancy agreements retain their previous salary on personal basis, but that no provision is made for the declining value of such mark-time salaries through inflation; and what steps he will take to adjust this position.

I have nothing to add to what my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary said yesterday.

Does the Minister expect me to be satisfied with that reply when the Answer which I received yesterday was simply "No"? Would he not agree that he should adopt a rather more flexible attitude to the problem when the hardship of his own employees is involved? Does he appreciate that under the present arrangements, people on these mark-time salaries will suffer increasing hardship as the years go by and the value of money goes down and down?

It is not true that my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary yesterday said only "No". He gave two long supplementary answers which went fully into the matter. I understand the position, but there are difficulties. An arrangement has been made whereby these people suffer no immediate loss of salary and receive higher salaries than people who do the same job alongside them. It is not possible to go further than that.

I fully accept the Minister's great difficulties, but would he not agree that there is a case for looking at the matter a little more carefully, as the people concerned are likely to remain on precisely the same salary for as long as eight or ten years, which, whatever the rights and wrongs, seems to many of us to be rather unreasonable in view of inflation?

I have looked carefully into the matter, and I will certainly look at it again, but I certainly cannot hold out any hope of a change.

asked the Minister of Aviation what action he proposes to take to increase the car-parking facilities at London Airport and to bring down the cost of parking.

A multi-storey car park will form part of a new terminal building shortly to begin construction; plans are also being considered to increase the facilities adjacent to the No. 3 Oceanic Building. I can give no undertaking to reduce parking charges.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the parking situation at London Airport is getting steadily worse and that parking at London Airport really cannot be restricted by using the price mechanism—or, at least, it should not be used for that purpose—since people have to take their cars there to permit them to travel further afield? Will the Minister therefore try to increase parking facilities either by an underground car park or something of that nature at a price which will allow people to leave their cars at the airport while they are travelling?

There is a further Question down on this and I should prefer to deal with some of these points when it is reached. We are, however, already going ahead with providing new car parking facilities and the car park should be completed by the end of 1968 to hold about 850 cars. It would, however, be quite unable to cope with the demands which would be put upon it if the charges were reduced.

Does not the Minister appreciate that these very high charges penalise precisely those people whose interests the Government should have at heart, namely, those who have established factories in the North-East or in Scotland who are actively engaged in exports to the Continent and require, therefore, to make short-term air journeys and to be able to leave their cars awaiting their return journeys? Will the Minister look at the problem in this light?

As the hon. Member is anticipating his Question, perhaps I should reply now. The fact is that insufficient space is available in the central terminal area at Heathrow for all those who wish to leave their cars there for long periods. If they are allowed to leave their cars there, those who wish to use car-parking facilities for a short-term stay simply will not have the space. We believe that it is better to leave some car-parking space available for those who want to leave their cars for a short-term stay and to encourage those who want long-term parking to take advantage of the off-airfield parking facilities, which are convenient and cheap.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will publish a White Paper enumerating all the projects of the aircraft industry in which public money was involved during the last 14 years, the extent of such involvements in each case, and the eventual fate of each project.

No Sir. The information is not readily available, and could only be obtained by the expenditure of a disproportionate amount of time and labour.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that he is too sensitive to the feelings of right hon. Gentlemen opposite? Is it not about time that the public realised the enormity of the scandal of the failure of this industry over the last 14 years?

I shall bear that in mind. As my hon. Friend is aware, in response to a request from my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) on 14th April I published a list of the cancellations and of the costs which had been involved.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that this is the one field in which the country can slash expenditure without hurting the living standards of ordinary people?

We have endeavoured, where we can, without damaging the legitimate needs of the Forces, to make all the economies that were possible.

Will the Minister offset some of the "knocking" of the aircraft industry by hon. Gentlemen opposite by telling us the export figures for the last five years?

I am not going to give those figures, which, I am afraid—as the hon. Gentleman knows if he follows these things—are not as healthy at the present time as I hope they will be in future, because I do not want to indulge in that "knocking" which has come far more from that side of the House than from this.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now increase the number of Belfast strategic freighter aircraft on order from Short Brothers and Harland.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Kilfedder) on 1st February last.

In view of the news surrounding the announcement of the large Russian 700-seater aircraft, will the Minister consider the possibility of using this aircraft as a high density aeroplane to be used by B.E.A. and thus reduce fares, and order perhaps one or two of these aircraft for use by B.E.A. on domestic routes?

I take it that the hon. Gentleman means order the Belfast and not the Russian aircraft. The form of his question was couched in the other direction.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will direct British European Airways, in the public interest, to discontinue its extra flights which support Spanish tourism at the expense of Gibraltar.

My right hon. Friend has no power to give such a direction. Restrictions on British European Airway's services would in any case be ineffectual since they would merely result in the transfer of business to other airlines without any likelihood of increased traffic to Gibralter. However, it remains the case that it is cheaper to fly to Gibraltar than to nearby airports in Spain.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that while Foreign and Colonial Office Ministers have for months been paying lip-service to the idea of giving help to Gibraltar in the face of the severe Spanish frontier restrictions, B.E.A.s policy is the opposite, and that by stepping up the number of aeroplanes flying to Malaga and reducing the number of aeroplanes flying to Gibraltar it is carrying out a policy which is detrimental to Gibraltar and helpful to Spanish tourism? Why cannot the hon. Gentleman intervene to put this right and implement the policy of his colleagues?

I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman's observations on the activities of B.E.A. during the last few months. In fact, B.E.A. continues to operate 11 flights a week to Gibraltar and these flights have not been affected by extra flights to Spain. Furthermore, B.E.A. has been making special endeavours to arrange holidays in Morocco and Tangiers which can be combined with flights to Gibraltar to help Gibraltar in these times.

Is not this perhaps the sort of thing which the consumer director who was to be appointed to B.E.A. might have dealt with? What has happened to this consumer director?

He will eventually be appointed, but there is no place to appoint him to yet.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT particulars of contracts and sub-contracts awarded to Royston Industries Limited in connection with the TSR2, P1154, or HS681 projects.

Royston Industries Limited held no contracts or sub-contracts in connection with any of these projects. Three of its subsidiary firms held small sub-contracts in connection with the TSR2 but were not involved in the other projects. It is not usual to disclose the details of firms' contractual arrangements.

Is it not undesirable that former Secretaries of State for Defence should have relations, however tenuous, with private interests in the industries for which they were formerly responsible?

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will now take steps to encourage competition in the internal air services with Scotland.

I have nothing to add to the statement which I made to the House on 17th February and which was debated here on 1st March.

Has not the recent strike shown how desirable it is that there should be competition rather than monopoly, especially as the only way in which the Minister of Labour could get to Glasgow by air was by a special flight put on by the particular independent airline which the Government had previously discouraged—the discouragement being making it clear that it would not be allowed any more frequencies?

The fact that the airline in question was able to put on a flight on that day at its own choice underlines the point that I have made, that it was always free to fly, and it has now announced its intention of recommencing scheduled services in July. The choice was, and is, for the airline.

Is not the Minister aware that the reason why this airline has chosen to come back into the field is that another private enterprise airline was proposing to do so, and is not this a classic example of the need for further competition on the airlines to Scotland and the advantages that such competition produces?

This also indicates that there is an opportunity for competition if the independents wish to provide it.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the British Overseas Airways Corporation to prevent unnecessary deaths caused by cramped conditions in the carriage of animals by air.

No, Sir; this would not be a suitable subject for a general direction. I understand, however, that British Overseas Airways Corporation already takes special measures to safeguard the welfare of any livestock it carries, and that its reputation in this respect is good.

Will not the Government try to do something, by direction, to prevent the kind of incident that was recently reported in the Press, concerning the deaths of about 300 Japanese squirrels in one consignment?

I understand that the squirrels were Korean—but the point is a very serious one. B.O.A.C. is very concerned and has decided not to take consignments of this type in future, in order to avoid a recurrence of this tragedy.

Will the Minister bear in mind that there is being built up in this country an increasing anti-vivi-section campaign; that the import of animals, particularly monkeys, is essential to research in this country, and that where there is negligence on the part of B.O.A.C. or any other operator in importing animals for research purposes it strengthens the demand for repressive measures against legitimate biological research in this country?

That point is extremely helpful, and I will see that it is conveyed to B.O.A.C.

What are the present regulations, and are they being carried out?

B.O.A.C. is very concerned to maintain the highest international standards in this respect. I am satisfied that that is what it intends to do in the future.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will state the reasons for the delay in building the piers for embarking and land passengers at London Airport.

The first pier from the Europa and Britannia buildings is now complete and construction of the second will start shortly. Piers will also be added to the Oceanic Building and a new passenger building to be built on the North-East side of the Central Area. Construction has to be carefully phased to minimise interference with airport operation but there should be no undue delay in completing these improvements to the facilities at Heathrow.

Did I hear my hon. Friend say that one of the piers was now complete? In that case, can he say why it was not in use on Monday when I landed at London Airport? Can he tell us why it is not in use, and also when it will be in use?

The pier is now constructionally complete, and it will be in use in the next few days. We are anxious to press ahead as quickly as we can with the reconstruction at Heathrow, because we want the facilities there to be up to the highest standards, in view of the great demand made upon them.

Will the hon. Gentleman try to persuade the airport authorities to leave the aprons close to the ends of these piers free for the use of aircraft to a maximum extent, and not lumber them up with carriage vehicles and other servicing vehicles? The whole point of investing money on these piers was to enable passengers to move straight from the terminal building to the aircraft without having to em-bus and de-bus.

I will certainly bear that point in mind.

Can the Minister tell me whether the pier will be open in time for the visit of the President of the Board of Trade to Belfast on Friday?

I hope so.

If the hon. Member cannot get the pier completed in time, will he at least get the notices stating that these piers will be completed in early spring brought up to date? Will he also take note of the fact that his hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Rankin) has some complaints about the service?

No. May I congratulate—

Order. There is some difficulty about allowing two supplementary questions to one Member.

asked the Minister of Aviation if Ferranti's have now repaid the £4 million excess profit on the Bloodhound missile contract; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the statement I made in the House on 17th June last.

Is the Minister aware that this Question was tabled before his statement last week? Even at the modest rate of 5 per cent. per annum, will not the firm enjoy no less than £670,000 in interest on the £2 million profit that it is due to repay by 1969? Even if there is no legal obligation, is not Mr. de Ferranti honour-bound to repay this sum to the taxpayer?

It is certainly the case that as the result of this very excessive profit Ferranti Ltd. has had the use of large sums of money—which it would not otherwise have had—building up its business interest-free for a number of years. However, when the sum of £4¼ million was agreed, before the change in the Administration, it was envisaged that there would be no interest, except on arrears.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this sum is microscopic compared to the "bunce" that the industry has received, as referred to in Question No. 23?

In view of the fact that the Government freely negotiated this settlement with the company and are satisfied with it, is it not time that hon. Members opposite stopped nagging on the subject?

It is not part of the Ministers' responsibility to say when hon. Members should start refraining from doing something or the other.

Since this settlement has been arrived at freely by the Treasury and the tax officials, and is regarded as a satisfactory settlement of this problem, will not the right hon. Gentleman advise his hon. Friends to accept it?

It is not part of the Minister's duty to do that.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will allot the three prototype TSR2's to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough so that it can carry out further tests on them.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make the three completed TSR2 aircraft available to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough for test flying.

asked the Minister of Aviation what plans have been made to use the prototype TSR2 for research purposes at Farnborough.

Two of the three TSR2s which have been completed will be used for ground tests at the Royal Aircraft Establishment; the third will be used for a programme of research on engine ground running noise in aid of the Concord.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there was very deep resentment on this side of the House and in many other quarters at the manner in which he announced the fact that the TSR2 flying programme was not to be permitted, in a Written Answer on the day the House rose for the Whitsun Recess? We should like to know whether he really considered, on its merits, the case for collecting the maximum amount of data concerning this aircraft. As was asked in earlier Questions, would it not strengthen his hand in negotiations with the United States if the right hon. Gentleman continued to try to obtain the maximum amount of data from these first-class aircraft, which are unique in the world?

I noticed that the hon. Member and one or two of his hon. Friends expressed resentment at the form of the announcement, and I thought that this was entirely misplaced. Hon. Members opposite would carry more conviction in the substance of their objections if they did not object so frequently to the form in which announcements are made. I had no opportunity of answering Oral Questions until today, and it would have been quite wrong to hold up an announcement, for which the firms and others were waiting, for three weeks after the decision was taken, in order to announce it in an Oral Answer. As for the substance of the matter, I have been most anxious to get the greatest possible research value out of these aircraft without incurring excessive costs. This I believe we have now done. The approximate cost of the programme for the two R.A.E. aircraft will be about £20,000. Had we gone in for a flying programme—the results of which, I am advised, would have been very limited—the cost would have been at least £2 million, and in certain circumstances might have risen well above £5 million.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this aircraft has performed better and fulfilled its promise at a much earlier stage than other aircraft? Is it not thoroughly illogical to consign it to tests on the ground? For the sake of £2 million, surely he will think again?

No, Sir. If hon. Members wish to reopen the TSR2 decision, that is another matter, but, if they wish to gain real research experience, my advice was that it was not worth £2 million and that it might well have been more. I am not able to take this cavalier attitude to £2 million of public money which, apparently, the hon. Member can.

Is the Minister aware that there is grave concern in the R.A.F. and the Services about when the Minister will announce the order for the replacement of the TSR2, namely, the F111? Is the Minister going to rat on his pledge on this, as the Government ratted on their pledge at the General Election on the TSR2?

There is no pledge on which to rat.

Could the right hon. Gentleman say what the test programme on this aircraft at the R.A.E. will involve? Will it involve testing the reconnaissance equipment which might be useful in the F111? Was there ever any suggestion of flying tests being carried out through the R.A.E., and, if so, at what cost?

The exact details of the R.A.E. programme have not yet been worked out, but reconnaissance equipment, where there is a good prospect of using it elsewhere, can mostly be tested elsewhere. The carrying out of a flying programme at the Royal Aircraft Establishment did not appear practicable.