asked the Minister of Public Building and Works why there is an acute shortage of plasterboard in the West Country; and what he proposes to do about it, in view of the fact that in the Torrington area the delay is at least 12 months.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement on the progress made in remedying the shortage of plasterboard.

There is a national shortage of plasterboard, and the situation in the West Country is no exception. The manufacturers are providing additional capacity, and the difficulties should ease progressively.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that these annual chronic shortages in the building industry must be overcome? We are rather tired of the pathetic excuses which the manufacturers keep making. Will the hon. Gentleman take action now and not just look into the matter?

The answer to the first part of the question is "Yes, Sir". The manufacturers are making strenuous efforts, and I hope before very long to be able to give more satisfactory answers to these points.

How can my hon. Friend reconcile the apparently reasonably good development of the housing programme with these recurrent shortages of component parts? I have already written to his right hon. Friend the Minister about another component part of building. Is it possible to reconcile the housing programme with these recurrent shortages, which indicate bad management programming?

The building materials manufacturers are increasing their output all the time. Fortunately, the builders and contractors are also increasing their output. Better organisation and better estimation is one of the answers.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how long his Department has been considering the question of finding alternative accommodation for the Ministry of Pensions office at present situated in Langside Church Hall, Glasgow; and what progress has been made.

Since 1957. Part of this local office will be accommodated with others in a new Crown building at Pollokshaws Road on which construction is about to start. The balance is required to be rehoused in the Cathcart area and sites there are being considered.

I am glad to see that some progress is being made, but does the Minister appreciate that this office covers a population of 200,000, which is still growing, and that no fewer than 77 people are employed in it? Does not he think it highly unsatisfactory that it should be located in a converted church hall? Would the right hon. Gentleman take every possible step to speed things up and, if possible, to visit the office next time he is in the area?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps are being taken by his Department to protect buildings and the remains of buildings important during the Industrial Revolution.

My right hon. Friend has already scheduled a number of monuments of this kind as ancient monuments, and has also given grants in aid of preservation in suitable cases. We are at present engaged in formulating a definite policy which will be designed to deal with the special problems and difficulties of "industrial monuments".

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that only a small proportion of the total moneys at present devoted to the preservation of historic buildings is devoted to buildings of the sort to which my Question refers. Does he realise that as a result of this many sites and buildings important in the Industrial Revolution will disappear without hope of trace or restoration although they are unique monuments in the process of industrialisation not only in this country but throughout the world?

We are very conscious of the need to improve the method of dealing with this problem. But I would point out this particular difficulty. Industrial monuments invariably are associated with manufacturing industry, or something of that sort, and progressive industry wants to get rid of old machines and things of that description in order to modernise. This is, therefore, a special difficulty which wants looking at rather carefully.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the export drive would be expedited if some of these ruins were knocked about a bit?

I do not think that that is particularly helpful. I have been criticised in the House for sponsoring the case of industrial monuments. One of the difficulties is that we need a good deal of support from industry itself as to the particular historical importance of things with which they are concerned, and I hope that we shall be able to get this.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will undertake a review of the efforts and expenditure by his Department on the preservation of ancient windmills, especially postmills, in this country, with the aim of seeking to preserve more of them.

The preservation of windmills must be tackled within the broader context of "industrial monuments" generally and not in isolation. We already have two windmills, one of which—Saxtead Green Mill—is a postmill, in our guardianship. We have made grants towards the repair and maintenance of five other windmills.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many mills which in theory are the subject of preservation orders are being allowed to fall into decay for want of funds, with the result that many of these charming and historic monuments will disappear before anything can be done to save them unless urgent action is taken very early on? I could give many examples of this at another time.

This is a constant problem with ancient monuments, and industrial monuments, too, for that matter. All cases which come to the attention of my Ministry are considered very carefully. If my hon. Friend knows of any special case in which decay is rapid and should be stopped, I hope that he will let me know of it.

Is it not up to the local authorities concerned to take the initiative in this matter? If my hon. Friend wants a good example of what an alert local authority can do, will he look at one of the last windmills left in London, on the top of Brixton Hill, which Lambeth Council has succeeded in preserving, and around which it has put a nice little garden?

I always thought that Lambeth was a good local authority and I am glad to hear of this example.

Does my hon. Friend find it easy to reconcile this request with the modernisation of this country?

As I said earlier, that is a particular difficulty with industrial monuments.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what representations have been made to him about the decision not to hold a son et lumiére performance at Hampton Court Palace this year; and what replies he has sent.

I have received representations, but I have made a general rule that because of the disturbance to residents permission should not be given for son et lumiére at Hampton Court Palace or at similar historic places in two consecutive years.

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether the grace-and-favour residents objected and, if so, is it not remarkable that people who live there free should object to other people who pay having their entertainment?

My hon. Friend is usually fair, but I think that this supplementary question is unfair, in so far as many old people in the grace-and-favour residences have spent out their lives in the service of the State and, as a matter of fact, it is probable in many of these cases that it is we who owe them something.

Will my right hon. Friend say how many complaints he has had about the holding of son et lumiére at Hampton Court? Will he indicate whether the people who have served the nation well and who occupy these houses include retired coal miners and steel workers, for example—or who are they?

They do not include retired coal miners and steel workers, but people who serve the State are not limited to this sort of people.

In view of the very unsatisfactory answer, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress is being made in developing building methods to facilitate continuous building in the winter months.

The building industry continues to improve its methods of working through the winter. My right hon. Friend and his officials are very active in encouraging builders to take effective measures against bad weather.

Can my hon. Friend say whether progress in this field has been sufficient to make a measurable im- pact on the house-building programme in the forthcoming winter? If so, can my hon. Friend give an assurance that the raw materials which will be used increasingly by these methods will be available?

It is making an impact, but, of course, far too many firms do not do enough about it and what they do, they do too late. I shall be glad if my hon. Friend's Question draws attention to the need to start planning for the winter now. Many of the things which are required, such as equipment and lighting, are relatively simple and relatively cheap and make a big improvement in production.

Has the right hon. Gentleman's Department obtained information from Canada where great progress has been made in this development against the background of a much worse winter climate than we have?

Yes, Sir. We have collected information from all countries which have been progressive in winter building and we have found it very useful.

Will my hon. Friend continue to bear in mind the urgent necessity of modernising the building industry, particularly bearing in mind that thousands of building trade operatives have their standard of living reduced in winter because of their inability to work due to lack of modernisation in the industry?

Yes, Sir. This is one of the keys to increasing productivity in the building industry.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what technical and other means he proposes to adopt to prevent a slackening of his house-building plans during inclement winter weather.

The Ministry published a guide "Winter Building" in 1963. Contractors to the Ministry are required to maintain continuity of working during bad weather.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the miraculous progress made in Canada and other countries in the transport and use of building materials in bad weather? As his answer did not specify, as is requested in my Question, what steps he is taking, will he specify what steps he is taking to prevent slackening in house-building during a bad winter in the north-east of Scotland, particularly in Aberdeen, where the house-building achievement during the summer has been so great?

Perhaps the pamphlet "Winter Building" has not reached my hon. and learned Friend. If he would read it he would see that a considerable number of methods are being used. Briefly, my Ministry is giving lectures and making films and it has a Winter Building Adviser. More important than anything else, it is encouraging the use of industrialised systems, which to a large extent get over the main difficulties of traditional building in that they can be used out of the weather.

Mr. Heffer.

On a point of order. In view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory nature—

Order. Before the hon. and learned Member started to give that notice I had called the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer).

Particularly in view of his last remarks, will my hon. Friend indicate what efforts are being made to encourage the Jackblock system of industrialised building, which allows for the production of the building throughout the winter months?

There are 400 systems, and I do not know whether that system is on the short list or on the long list. I should need notice of that question.

May I now say that, in view of the thoroughly unsatisfactory answer to my question and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), I give notice that, with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what research is being carried out to encourage the further use of power station ash and National Coal Board shale in building.

The Central Electricity Generating Board, the National Coal Board and the Building Research Station are between them doing a considerable amount of research on power station ash, and the National Coal Board is actively engaged in developing the further use of colliery shale.

Is my hon. Friend aware that heavy power station ash and clinker are very important to the reinforced concrete manufacturers and that the change-over from heavy fuels to pulverised fuels is diminishing the supply and leading to a stock-piling racket on the part of merchants who deal in ash and clinker in terms of supply to the reinforced concrete manufacturers? Will he look into the matter?

I do not know about a racket, but if my hon. Friend will write to me I shall be glad to investigate the matter. Substantial and increasing quantities of ash are being used as a result of this research.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what further plans he has to remedy the periodic shortages of cement in view of the inadequate rise in cement production during the last 10 years.

I refer the hon. Lady to my speech on 1st July in the Supply Day debate, which I hope she has read. I read her speech with interest and sympathy.

May I assure my right hon. Friend that I have not only read it but I heard it? Is my right hon. Friend aware that up to 1963 the output of the cement monopoly had increased by only 1½ per cent. per annum and that the building programme in the Midlands and many other parts of the country has been affected by this? Is he also aware that the stocks of cement clinker, which is necessary for the production of cement, have been used up and that the production of this is growing only at a very small rate? Will he see that the cement manufacturers use granulated blast furnace slag in order to produce the quantity of cement necessary to deal with our house-building and other building programmes?

The demand has risen rapidly since March as many jobs, particularly in civil engineering, are ahead of schedule. This has caused a gap between supply and demand, even though deliveries are also up.

Does the Minister realise that because of the very serious shortage of cement in Scotland the road programme and house building are being seriously held up, and will he tell us what he proposes to do in the immediate future?

The question is, "Will I tell the hon. Member what I propose to do?" This is not a nationalised industry. This is a private industry. I can only tell the hon. Member that I have been in constant touch—almost daily touch—with the cement industry, which is doing its best in the matter, and all instances brought to our notice by Members of Parliament are forwarded on to the industry. I would merely refer the hon. Member to the latter part of my Answer, which indicated a tremendous increase in production over a period due to the continual rise in the building and construction industries' programme.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps are being taken to improve the supply of cement in the Merseyside area.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he is aware that a major housing project in Oldham is unable to be assured of necessary cement supplies after mid-July; what action he will take; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what action he will take to remedy the present shortage of cement in Hampshire.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he is aware of the continuing shortage in the supply of cement, and that this is having a detrimental effect in the building of schools, houses, etc., as well as involving local authorities in financial losses arising from delays in the completion of contracts; and what steps are being taken to solve the problem.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he is aware of the shortage of cement in Birmingham; and what measures he is taking to maintain supplies.

There is at present a marginal shortage of cement which is affecting many parts of the country. My right hon. Friend and I have met the cement makers and they have assured us that, until the record increase in capacity which they have in hand is ready, they will continue to import in order to reduce the gap.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that in my own town the supply of cement for a major industrial scheme has been cut from 25 tons down to 15 tons? Is he not aware that in the interim, temporary difficult period he must offer some guidance in such cases as to the priorities in the dispersal of the stocks?

Yes. I sympathise with my hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend has written to him about the Shotover estate, to which, presumably he refers. It appears that sufficient supplies are available for working at a reduced rate. The cement manufacturing people have agreed with my right hon. Friend that they will give priority to the housing programme and will also intervene if there is any shortage which is causing serious under-employment.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how he will encourage manufacturers to give priority to housing if the Government are not prepared to take steps to reduce their own building commitments at the present time?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman wants a system of rationing and quotas and that sort of thing, but that is what his remarks appear to indicate.

Can my hon. Friend say on what grounds he replied to the letter which I sent to him from Fife County Council complaining about the shortage of cement—the reply in which he said that the facts put forward by the county council were exaggerated and inaccurate? Can he give an assurance that while the shortage persists manufacturers will not be allowed to exploit the shortage by putting up prices?

I think, perhaps, my right hon. Friend used rather different words—that it was not as bad as feared. As for overcharging, I would be most grateful to my hon. Friend and to any other hon. Member if they would let us know of cases like this, which, of course, are quite scandalous in the existing circumstances.

Could the hon. Gentleman say, apart from the 10 per cent. import charge, whether there is any restriction at all on imports at present?

No, Sir.

Would my hon. Friend, realising the mix-up in the industry, make some concrete proposals to assist local authorities such as the City of Birmingham? The authorities there have a great housing drive which is being held up because of the failure of the industry to meet the demand.

We have given special consideration to Birmingham. If there are special steps which can be taken by us we see that they are passed on, but we think that at present manufacturers are doing their best.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps are being taken to improve the supply of cement; and to what extent cement is being imported from Poland.

The manufacturers are increasing their capacity considerably, and they are also importing cement. Imports from Poland in the first five months of the year amounted to nearly 11,000 tons.

I wonder whether my hon. Friend would indicate whether these imports from Poland are growing? Secondly, is he aware that on Merseyside there have been a number of building operatives who have become redundant as the result of the cement shortage? Would he also take into consideration that our process of industrialisation in the building industry will be seriously curtailed, particularly where cement is the primary product used in industrialisation, unless something is done seriously to increase cement?

Imports from Poland are difficult to compare as a percentage as a big increase this year because there were no imports in the previous year. As to unemployment, I would have thought that anyone engaged in the building industry would have been able to get another job quickly, and I would hope that this would be so. As for holding up industrialisation, there is this risk, but so far we have not seen very much sign of it.

In view of the fact that the hon. Gentleman now speaks encouragingly of imports of cement, is it not utterly illogical to maintain on cement the surcharge whose proclaimed object is to keep it out?

Well, the whole position is quite absurd, of course—that this country is importing cement, as it has been importing cement for a long time, to deal with the industry's difficulties which started under the previous Government, and if the right hon. Gentleman really expects us to do miracles in this time—

Not really.

—we do not believe that the attitude of hon. and right hon. Members opposite have to the coal industry, for example, is wholly consistent with this.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals have been made to his Department for the preservation of buildings of historical interest in the Royal Ordnance Factory, Woolwich.

I intend to look at the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the past Woolwich Borough Council has had its housing programmes severely interfered with by undue consideration for buildings of so-called historic interest, and in this case will he look at this most carefully to ensure that our future development programmes are not inhibited in the same way?

Like Cromwell, knock the ruins about a bit?

Well, as I said earlier, I am prepared to look at all these things. There has sometimes to be a balanced view as between one thing and another. The hon. Member, representing his constituency, presumably has responsibility for its past as well as its future, and he can, perhaps, come along and tell me all about it.

Will the Minister undertake to look in particular at the factory at Woolwich which, I believe, was built by Vanbrugh and must be a unique example of its sort, and also some of the clocks and bell towers which may be demolished but which could be re-erected, preferably on other estates connected with defence?—

Does the right hon. Gentleman want to come as well. I think that, with the exception of my hon. Friend, I live closer to Woolwich Arsenal than any other Member of the House, and I would certainly be prepared to take all these matters into consideration. I am giving a fresh view to the subject.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what representations he has received from the building trade unions regarding the possible impact on traditional building methods arising from the increasing use of industrialised building systems; and what replies he has sent.

None, Sir. I call the hon. Gentleman's attention to my speech to the National Federation of Building Trades Operatives on 16th June.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for his reply, may I ask whether he will continue to bear in mind that while the building trades unions appreciate the absolute necessity for the supplementation of the building programme provided by traditional means, through the medium of industrialised building, there is, nevertheless, growing concern about the future of the tra- ditional section of the industry? Does he not think that the time is now opportune to give an assurance to that section of the industry that there will be a continuing demand and an increasing demand for traditional building and that there will be a flow of materials for it?

On the first part of that question, my hon. Friend will appreciate that my roots are among the craftsmen of the engineering industry. I believe that the craftsman is the backbone of any trade or calling. I am very sensitive to all this sort of thing, and I would wish to keep in touch with the building trade unions as much as possible. The future of their craft and their calling are matters which have been built up over the years, and I am very sensitive to them.

Will the Minister not allow restrictive practices to hold up programmes in the building industry?

The hon. and learned Gentleman has not even a nodding acquaintance with this sort of thing. There is always plenty of talk about restrictive practices in the building trade, but there is never any mention of the restrictive practices in the professions, such as a lawyer having to go into court with a No. Two and how much he gets for the job. All the professions have their restrictive practices. One finds them in medicine, and that sort of thing. I think that we had better address ourselves to subjects of which we have some knowledge.

Mr. Urwin.

Will the Minister not turn his face against any restrictive practice?

Order. Having come to the conclusion that we had had enough of that topic, I called the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) to ask the next Question.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will make a statement on the part played by his Department in the setting up of publicly-owned factories for the production of industrialised building components in developing districts.

The principal obstacle to greater use of industrialised building is the need to organise the demand, not to supplement the supply. Capacity is ample.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is little point in supplementing the resources available until existing factories, such as the Reema factory at Tetbury, can get the materials which they need for their production?

For once the hon. Gentleman and I are on the same beam.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that there is every indication of the need for the Government to be able to control the supply and flow of industrialised house-building for houses and flats? Will he, therefore, consider the setting up of factories for industrialised house-building in those areas mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power the other day, for example, where uneconomic pits are likely to close? Will he set up factories for the production of the units on lines approved by the National Building Agency?

We have these things very much in mind. Fully exploited, the industrialised building industry could produce 50,000 dwellings a year. If we are asked why we do not do that, the answer is that we could not spare the labour on the building sites where it would be in competition, in the erection of these houses, with traditional forms of house building. Until that is fully exploited I do not think that I can go any further.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what discussions he has had with representatives of building trade unions on the subject of supply of building materials; and if he will make a statement.

The supply of building materials is discussed regularly at the quarterly meetings of my National Consultative Committee at which the trade unions are represented, and I have also had correspondence with them about particular shortages. As far as I am aware, in no case have shortages of materials led to unemployment.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that had the building material supply section of the industry been properly planned under previous Governments, productivity in the industry would have increased by more than the 7½ per cent. record which it achieved last year? Will he ensure that the situation is remedied as quickly as possible?

I am far more prone to turn my mind to the brighter future than to the sordid past.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he is taking to ease the shortage of cement, plasterboard and bricks in Suffolk.

I have no reason to believe that the situation in Suffolk is appreciably different from that for the rest of England.

Is the Minister aware that in saying that the position is no different from anywhere else he is not saying very much? Is he aware that the situation is not good in Suffolk and that there is a growing shortage of these building materials and labour? Would he take steps to see that builders, in good weather, can get on with the job?

Yes, Sir, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman can help me in this by letting me know of any situation with which I can deal.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will arrange that all official Government cars be fitted with safety belts.

Yes, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that I have seen Government cars which appeared not to have safety straps? The Minister of Transport has said that there should be such straps on all cars. Will the right hon. Gentleman check on this? We on this side of the House recognise that under the present Administration the whole country needs safety straps, but in particular we think that Government cars should have them.

Those without safety straps were bought by the previous Administration.

Can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he uses safety straps? I hate to think what would happen if he came to a sticky end, though of course we would bear it with our customary courage and resignation.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the practice concerning the use by Ministers of official cars to take them home from the Palace of Westminster at the conclusion of the day's business in Parliament.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) on 24th June.

Is there any reason why drivers should be kept waiting all night to take Ministers home? At the end of the day, when Ministers are going home rather than going to their offices, is there any reason why they should not get home in the same way as other Members do?

The hon. Gentleman ought to have addressed that Question to the previous Administration. He must not think that this Administration, in matters which refer to the responsibility of Ministers, is of a lower breed than its predecessors. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a great deal of harm is done by asking that sort of question? In so far as we are all Members—

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, I was under the impression that I had asked the Minister a Question, to which he was replying. If he now asks me a question, will I have the opportunity of replying to it?

No. I excuse the hon. Member from making any answer, but we are in the middle of one at the moment.

As you say, Mr. Speaker, I am in the middle of an answer. The arrangement in every Administration is that the Prime Minister is responsible for things of this sort, and the Minister of Public Building and Works has to approve the regulations. I can only say that the regulations under which we operate now are substantially those which characterised the Administration of our predecessors during the past 13 years. It would be a bad thing if controversy in this place was conducted in the small change of innuendo.

Is the Minister aware that my Question was transferred to him by the Prime Minister, presumably because the Prime Minister wanted the right hon. Gentleman to answer it? As the right hon. Gentleman has made a practice of saying at Question Time that he is taking a new look at things and doing things the new way, will he answer the Question on its merits rather than try to hide behind previous practice?

A new look is always taken under a new Administration, and this new look was taken last October, when I studied the regulations that went before. I have looked at all the provisions that went before and I know what was done—and the hon. Member had better not pursue this line. I would only say that Ministers who come to their Departments have to do so early in the morning, and go through to the end of the day. The Parliamentary situation has been a double burden on Ministers, and this would be so under any Administration. I have looked at all the Parliamentary Questions that have been asked over the last 13 years and I can say that when my hon. Friends were in opposition they did not resort to that sort of thing in regard to the difficulties that arose from 1951 onwards, when hon. Members opposite formed the Government. The hon. Member had better leave it alone.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it would add to the dignity of the House if some right hon. Member on the Opposition Front Bench refuted the hon. Member's innuendo?

Is the Minister aware that many of us see no objection to cars taking Ministers home? The real criticism is when they bring them back.

The real objection of the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends is that we are using the cars at all.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he proposes to take to ensure the stability of the exposed wall of Westminster Hall, from which the buttresses have been removed, following the demolitions in Star Court.

I am assured that the wall is stable.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from someone who has some knowledge of this that there might be difficulties, especially as on some days workmen seem to be messing about with chisels on the site?

I presume that the craftsmen working on the job know what they are doing. The wall did not depend in any way on the arcade which has been removed preparatory to the construction of the new building in Star Chamber Court.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members would not object if he managed to make a considerable portion of it fall down provided that he rebuilt it to modern standards?

Can the Minister give the House an assurance that there will be no interruption with the flow of light into Westminster Hall by reason of this building being built on the side of it?

We paid particular attention to that. I do not know where the model is at the moment, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to see it I shall make it available to the Liberal Party.

Can we keep it?

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he proposes to take the opportunity afforded by the works in Star Court to remove the buttresses on the exposed east wall of Westminster Hall and subject this wall to careful archaeological examination and restoration.

No. I am not proposing to remove the buttresses, but an archaeological examination of the wall is being carried out.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that there will be wide public interest in anything that may be discovered about the nature and date of the original fabric? Will he consider the possibility even- tually of treating some of the original stonework in a similar way to that in which the Tudor brickwork of the Old Treasury has been treated, so that it could remain visible for people to see in the future?

I sometimes think that the most distinguished servants in my Department are the Inspectors of Ancient Monuments. They have a particular nose for this sort of thing. The wall will be largely hidden by the new building shortly to be erected in the court, but if the original masonry is revealed by the archaeological examination we will restore the visible part of it.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what representations he has received from the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors about their proposed new control body to beat jerrybuilders; and what reply he sent.

I am studying the Association's ideas for a new control body along with other comments on my proposals for new legislation for the regulation of building in England and Wales.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he bear in mind that there is a need at the moment for some of this jerrybuilding to be carefully watched and prevented? Will he take what steps he can to get qualified surveyors to see to it that inspections are properly carried out?

Yes. Sir.

I thank my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals he has for improving the machinery for co-ordination between the department of Defence and representatives of his Department working overseas.

None, Sir. My Ministry co-operates closely with the Ministry of Defence and no new machinery is required.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the prolonged nature of the defence review is causing some difficulty in making sensible planning arrangements for essential work overseas? Is he sure that these problems are being adequately represented to his colleagues in the Ministry of Defence?

I am not too sure that the earlier part of that supplementary question is for me to answer. There is a good deal of information on this. Apart from formal arrangements, there is close day-to-day contact at all levels between the staff of the Ministry and Service officers on matters of common concern.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many persons are now employed by him within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster; and how many persons are employed in the care of their health and welfare.

On 30th June, 1965, my Department employed 295 people within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. It is not necessary for any officer at the Palace of Westminster to be specifically responsible for the health and welfare of these officers; all matters of this nature are dealt with by the welfare section at Lambeth Bridge House.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. In his present review of the Palace of Westminster, will he please incorporate room for adequate medical facilities for the staff and for all who work in the precincts of the Palace, including Members of Parliament?

It was following the Select Committee of which I was a Member that the present facilities were produced by Oliver Cromwell's Statue. If they are not adequate at present it is for the House to say so, through the Serjeant at Arms, and then, when we get that sort of request, we will try to meet the need. It is not specifically a matter for me.

Will my right hon. Friend look at this question again? Does he recall that in 1961 the then Prime Minis- ter, Mr. Macmillan, undertook to have an investigation into this matter, but that it never took place? Will he look at the whole question of an occupational health service in this very large factory?

In view of what my hon. Friend has said, I shall certainly start some sort of consultation with the authorities of the House.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will explore the possibilities of raising the ceiling of the Library corridor in the House of Commons and introducing a new floor bisecting the resulting space, to provide a small number of rooms for the use of honourable Members, and at the same time explore the possibility of building two additional floors on the roof of the Members' Tea Room, to provide for a number of small rooms for the use of honourable Members, all within easy reach of the Chamber of the House; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir.

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I hope he will bear in mind the fact that there is a misprint in the Question, and that it should have referred to "a large number of small rooms" and not "a small number of rooms". In view of the great interest that has been shown in this subject, perhaps I may give notice that I should like to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

I thought that I had given a satisfactory answer. I suggest to the hon. Member that he does not—

On a point of order. Notice having been given by my hon. Friend of his intention to raise the matter on the Adjournment, is it not quite out of order for the Minister to speak further on the subject?

The hon. Member started by asking a supplementary question and then gave notice in the middle of it. I thought that the Minister might be allowed half an answer to balance the matter.

I was dealing with the point that the hon. Member put to me a week or so ago in another place. [HON. MEMBERS: "Another place?"] I would be out of order if I referred to evidence given before the Select Committee. Since then, knowing the hon. Member's interest in the subject, I have made some preliminary inquiries. In view of that I would be grateful if the hon. Member would await some action on our part, which would have to be taken in the Summer Recess, before precipitately running in with an Adjournment debate.

On a point of order. I did not seek to criticise the right hon. Gentleman. I sought to give notice to you, Mr. Speaker, in a way which would enable us to pursue the matter without implying any criticism.

The hon. Member is more regular now. I accept his notice to seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what system of prefabrication he has evolved for raised temporary seating accommodation for official functions.

Prefabrication is used to the fullest possible extent, but no one system is used.

Does not the present system of scaffolding, which has to be cut to length, seem somewhat wasteful of labour, time and raw materials? Could not the Ministry devise some equipment which could be more rapidly erected and dismantled, especially where the dimensions of the erections are the same annually, as in the case of the stands on Horse Guards Parade?

I do not know what case the hon. Member has specifically in mind, but in the case of the recent 700th anniversary ceremony in Westminster Hall it was impracticable to adopt full prefabrication because the stands had to be made to precise dimensions to suit the Hall. However, the tubular scaffolding and fittings, as well as the chipboard sheets used for the flooring, were all of standard sizes and were taken away for re-use by the contractor. We are continually seeking improved methods of erecting temporary seating.

Has the right hon. Gentleman studied the Dexion system, which looks like gigantic meccano and is already used widely in Government Departments for racking and would be extremely effective for this purpose?

I have not studied it, but I have no doubt that it has not escaped the notice of my Ministry.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will give the number of seats provided, their total cost and the average cost per seat for the temporary stands erected for the Trooping the Colour and the septencentenary celebrations in Westminster Hall, respectively.

For the Trooping the Colour ceremony, 6,640 seats at a total cost of £8,240 and an average cost of about 25s. per seat. For the 700th Anniversary celebrations in Westminster Hall, 1,800 seats at a total cost of £4,200 and an average cost of about 46s. per seat.

In the case of Trooping the Colour, would the Minister confirm that the cost is covered by the charges? In view of the comparatively high average cost, would he not follow the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason) and investigate whether there are any means of having equipment which would do the job more easily and quickly? We know that it will be required at any rate once a year on Horse Guards Parade and, we hope, on many occasions.

We look into all these sort of things. It is true that Horse Guards Parade is used about once a year for Trooping the Colour. The use of Westminster Hall is a rarity, but the cost of all the arrangements for Westminster Hall will be met by the Treasury from their Miscellaneous Expenses Vote, which will be presented to the House as a Supplementary Estimate on this account later this month. The hon. Member refers to the Westminster Hall celebrations. He will find that the cost works out over the 700 years at less than 1d. a seat per year for the ceremony.

Can the Minister say whether the average cost per seat for Trooping the Colour includes the cost of the involuntary dyed red human seats?

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is his latest estimate of the cost of the work he is undertaking at the Polaris base at Faslane; and to what extent the original estimate is likely to be increased, following the rise in the price of cement and other building materials.

£21 million, including the cost of associated work at Coulport, Helensburgh and elsewhere. We do not expect this estimate to be increased.

Is the Minister aware that the original estimate by the previous Administration was £25 million, which has now gone up, according to the last estimate which I had, to £45 million? Is he aware that we believe that this will be the most expensive white elephant which has ever been erected in Scotland?

The total cost of the Polaris base has been given as £45 million, but the part to which I was referring was the work specified in my hon. Friend's Question.

As the Question mentions the rise in the price of cement, could the hon. Gentleman say what is the average price of cement at home and abroad and whether the home price has risen faster than that abroad?

The price of cement has not risen.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many construction and building workers were employed at the Polaris base at Faslane during the month of July; and if he will classify the number of building workers now employed there.

The latest figure available is for 30th June; 988, of whom 913 are in building trades.

How does the Minister reconcile these figures with his previous statement that priority would be given to housing? Is he aware that the build- ings on this Polaris base are taking away the building labour and materials which are necessary for houses, hospitals and schools, and that we do not regard this as one of the great priorities?

As I have told my hon. Friend, the policy on this matter is not a matter for my Ministry. The jobs are specified and my Ministry gets on with them, and does so very well. Housing is included in some of these projects.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will, after due restoration of the stonework, take steps to hand back to the Dean and Chapter of Westminster Abbey the Chapter House, to mark the 900th anniversary of the foundation.

No, Sir.

As this building is not used by the Ministry of Works but is kept open as a museum, will the hon. Gentleman have another look at this? It will provide the Minister with his sole chance of being canonised.

Perhaps the hon. Member has in mind the celebrations to mark the 900th anniversary of the Abbey's foundation next year. My Department is making the Chapter House available for the whole year to the Abbey authorities. They have not made any request of my Department for this.

Has the Minister any objection to the Abbey authorities having this building back? It was taken over on the dissolution of the monasteries and is not being properly used for the purpose for which they would use it.

This building has a very long tradition of association with Parliament. The first Parliament met there. It was then used as a public record office and in later years it has been visited by a great many people. There have certainly been no demands of any sort that it should change its caretakership, as it were, from my Department.

It, has an even longer history—

Order.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what plans he has, arising from his review of the social services, to take steps to encourage voluntary organisations concerned with the amelioration of the social problem of loneliness.

I am at present in close touch with voluntary bodies dealing with special problems of this kind. I am anxious to establish the fullest co-operation between voluntary action and State provision and have convened several conferences with this end in view. The particular social problem of loneliness comes, with many others, within this review.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he undertake to study the very excellent report of he Women's Group on Public Welfare on this tragic problem with a view to implementing its recommendations?

I will certainly do that.

The right hon. Gentleman, of course, will be aware that this touches on a very great human problem. Has he considered inviting not only voluntary organisations but the old people's welfare committees, who deal with this at the grass roots, to submit ideas on the subject?

I am in close touch with the National Assistance Board, who in many cases first come into touch with problems of loneliness among old people, and they in turn are in touch with old people's welfare committees. This is a big problem. I am entering a vast field of noble and humanitarian work. I require some time to acquaint myself with it so as to see the possibilities of voluntary action in many fields connected with social problems.

Would the Minister consider giving wider publicity to the pioneering work which is done in at least one city—Salford—where the whole community from youth onwards is involved in caring for the elderly and overcoming the loneliness which affects them?

I am aware of the great work which has been done in Salford, and I am happy to think that they are able to tell the world a great deal of what they are doing.

I appreciate the efforts which have been made by the right hon. Gentleman to collect information. Could he kindly circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of those bodies with whom he has been in touch in order that they may be encouraged to put forward all the ideas which they have collected through experience of this problem?

It would be premature to do that—

Why?

—because I am in the middle of the job and I have a number of other organisations which I wish to consult. In due time, I shall be very happy to make a report to the House on what I have been doing.

asked the Minister of Pensions and National Insurance what has been the annual difference between contributions paid in and benefits paid out of the graduated pensions scheme, introduced by the last Administration, in each year since its inauguration; and for what purposes the difference is used.

In the years 1961–62, 1962–63 and 1963–64, income from graduated National Insurance contributions exceeded the amounts paid out in graduated additions to pension by about £148 million, £182 million and £229 million, respectively. It is provisionally estimated that for 1964–65 the corresponding figure was £277 million. The contributions went into the National Insurance Fund out of which all the benefits of the scheme, including flat-rate pensions, are paid; the balance in the Fund went down over the period.

Does my hon. Friend agree that these figures reveal that this graduated scheme introduced by the last Administration amounts to a grotesque deception of the people? Would he try to see that these figures are given the fullest possible publicity? Does it not also suggest that the time has come for us to press on with our own Government scheme? Can he say how his own efforts are getting on?

As my hon. Friend will be aware, we have always been critical of the present scheme and replacement of the present graduated pension arrangements is among the principal matters to which the Government's current review of social security schemes is being directed. We intend, as soon as we can, to replace these graduated pension arrangements with a new wage-related scheme of our own.

If the hon. Gentleman is so critical of the graduated scheme, why is he taking £277 million out of it this year? Why did he not replace it by 2s. 8d. on the flat-rate stamp when he had the opportunity to do so?

I remind the hon. Lady that in the recent National Insurance Act which we implemented this year we abolished the increase in graduated contributions which, under her Government's legislation, was due to come into operation this year without any corresponding increase whatever in graduated pensions. In this way we have prevented a worsening in the terms provided by the graduated pension scheme which would otherwise have occurred.