asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek to reform the existing law governing the ownership of minerals in order to ensure that all minerals are worked in the public interest.

While the Government have no plans to reform the existing law governing the ownership of minerals, the Land Commission which we propose to set up will both ensure that land is made available for development, which could include mineral development, when the public interest requires and that the public derives the benefit from increasing land values which arise from development.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that Answer does not go far enough? Has his attention been drawn to an article in the Town and Country Planning Magazine of May this year in which it was suggested that we might adopt the United States practice of having the minerals State-owned and leased to operators, in which case they could be used in the public interest instead of in the private interest? Will my right hon. Friend take account of all the suggestions that were made in that article?

I read the article with great interest and certainly noted the suggestions that were put down. It was, I think, a reprint of a lecture which was given on the subject by an expert and it suggested that we should follow the United States pattern concerning the ownership of minerals. The Government are not prepared to go as far as that at the present time.

Can the Secretary of State say what mineral enterprises in this country are paying dividends?

That is not part of this Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now introduce legislation to enable him to deal with the present inflated prices of land in the Highlands in areas where development has taken place because of public action and expenditure.

The Bill to set up a Land Commission, which the Government propose to introduce as soon as possible, is intended to deal with this situation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the situation in some parts of the Highlands—for example, at Aviemore or Fort William—where, because of the great expenditure of public money, private speculators are able to reap large harvests? Figures of several thousand £s per acres have been mentioned in each of these two districts.

I am aware and I am very disappointed that this should take place. I do not think that it should be allowed to go on without the State itself appreciating that certain landowners who have had neither risk nor interest in respect of these developments are reaping such rich rewards.

Has not the stage been reached in Scotland when it would be appropriate to start a new Domesday Book to find exactly who owns the land? I know that this question has come up before, but would it not be well worth while doing it again?

It may well be worth doing it again, but it is not covered by Question No. 3.

Is the Secretary of State definitely saying that it is the Government's intention that the Land Commission Bill will deal with the sort of gross exploitation which, as his hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West (Mr. Buchan) has rightly said, is taking place in the Lochaber area in particular?

We certainly hope that it will help to deal with this problem, but I ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the Bill for details.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to rescind Section 381 of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, which makes it illegal to park a car anywhere.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many burghs in Scotland are spending considerable sums of the taxpayers' money in erecting "No Waiting" signs and that the absence of these signs elsewhere leaves motorists to imagine that they are allowed to park when these signs are not present? Will my right hon. Friend, therefore, consider making the law quite clear to these motorists, who are normally law-abiding citizens, perhaps by his Department stopping local authorities from wasting money on putting up superfluous signs and encouraging them instead to put up signs where waiting is permitted?

This is a rather difficult problem. It may be a misleading impression that many motorists have that if no sign is displayed they can wait with impunity. This simply is not the case. My hon. Friend could equally argue that, because there are parking signs in certain towns, motorists cannot park anywhere else. If we took my hon. Friend's advice concerning this power that stems from the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, we would need to put up far more signs and yet we still would not get the full position clear. The trouble, I think, is that local people tend to know where they can park their cars and that there may be difficulty for visitors who go into a town. If you want to know the fine, ask a policeman.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the approximate figure for the number of motor cars in Scotland in 1892?

We were very far-seeing in Scotland in 1892, because Section 381(10) provides that any person who in any street

"Causes any cart or carriage, with or without horses, or any beast of draught or burden, to stand longer than is necessary"

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware of the developments and improvements in fish farming undertaken by the White Fish Authority in co-operation with the University of Strathclyde directed towards raising the temperature in the chosen experimental Scottish lochs and towards feeding the embryo fish in order to increase their size and vitamin content; and what assistance the Government is giving to these improvements and developments.

I am aware of the work which is being carried out by the White Fish Authority in co-operation with the University of Strathclyde. This is part of the Authority's research and development programme, for which it receives a grant of 50 per cent. from the Government. The initial work on the artificial rearing of sea fish was carried out by scientists of the fisheries departments who are continuing these studies and collaborating with the White Fish Authority and others to determine the environmental conditions necessary for fish farming.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the White Fish Authority is to be congratulated upon its initiative in this matter, especially having regard to the invidious policy which has been carried out over many years in favour of agriculture as contrasted with—I do not say "at the expense of"—the fishing industry? Will my right hon. Friend issue a White Paper indicating what his constructive policy is for the benefit of the fishing industry in order to prevent Britain from suffering from a fish famine?

I hope that the Answer that I have just given on the aspect of fishing about which my hon. and learned Friend is presently concerned will give him a certain amount of encouragement. Instead of asking me for a White Paper, I hope that he will dedicate himself to making a speech in the Scottish Grand Committee tomorrow, when this subject will be discussed.

Is the Secretary of State aware that we on the west coast of Scotland are delighted that conditions there are better for rearing fish than they are in the east?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that at Ardtoe, Ardnamurchan, Argyll, where the White Fish Authority is building an experimental fish rearing station, there is a bit of excitement among the rural population? Will he take steps to encourage the Authority, especially its Chairman, to carry on with the good work it has started? The Authority held a public meeting last week to carry the population of that area with it. Although it is a small experiment, will he tell the Authority that Scottish Members on both sides of the House are 100 per cent. behind the experiment?

Yes, I think that my hon. Friend is right. There is considerable excitement about the experiment at Ardtoe, Ardnamurchan. As to the benefits of the west, let us say that these are not due to any Government of one complexion or another, but, rather, to the work of nature. It is an accident of the sea and of geography that there are more sea lochs on the west coast than on the east.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will take steps to improve security of tenure for tenant farmers.

I am not clear in what respect the hon. Member considers that security of tenure needs to be improved and have nothing at present to add to the reply which I gave him on 23rd March.

Surely the Secretary of State must be aware that Labour candidates in the north of Scotland, at any rate, gave the impression that it was the intention of the present Government to extend security of tenure so that farms could be passed on to the son, or possibly to the widow, when the incumbent died and the lease was not expired? Is he further aware that there is quite a bit of feeling among tenant farmers in the north of Scotland that certain landlords are taking the opportunity to dispossess families? They think that until a revision of this takes place there will not be stability in tenant farming in the North.

What the hon. Gentleman is really after is not security of tenure, which is fairly firm for the tenant farmer, but a change of the law of succession, which was changed in the 1958 Act. We have received representations about this from the Scottish National Farmers' Union, on the one hand, which wants a change made for the benefit of the family of the tenant. On the other hand, we have had opinions the other way, and they are being assessed at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will introduce legislation to abolish the gin trap in Scotland.

The use of the gin trap is permissible in Scotland for the capture of foxes and otters only. Arrangements have been made, in consultation with the National Farmers' Union, the Scottish Landowners Federation and the organisations concerned with salmon fisheries, for a survey over the next year of the extent to which the gin trap and other methods respectively are used for dealing with these species.

Does the Secretary of State realise that this is a very unsatisfactory and cruel device which is banned in England? Is not the law rather ridiculous, in that animals cannot distinguish; they cannot tell that it is confined to otters and foxes? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me something about the experiments which I believe are going on with the contraceptive pill and gas as more humane methods?

There is a later Question dealing with the latter point. The reason for the different legislative procedures of Scotland and England is, once again, the facts of geography. We have far more hills. We have far more wild hill sheeplands. We have had strong representations about the effect the banning of the gin trap would have. It would cause serious losses on these lands. We must balance these factors before we come to any conclusion.

Can my right hon. Friend tell me how other little animals can know that the fox has exclusive use of the gin trap?

Has the right hon. Gentleman any information about the success of setting gin traps on island sites to achieve drowning after catching?

I believe that there are experiments into this, but I have no detailed information at present.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any progress report about the contraceptive methods for foxes which I believe were at least under experiment before? Has he any information from Canada on this subject?

Not in answer to this Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will call for reports from chief constables as to the extent to which they are equipped to use non-lethal gas in an emergency.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will call for reports from chief constables on the extent to which the police are trained in the use of tear gas.

Arrangements are being made to supply police forces in Scotland with non-toxic tear smoke for use in the circumstances outlined by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary in replying to a Question by my hon. Friend on 20th May. Chief constables who wish to make arrangements for practical training are being advised to seek the assistance of local military commanders.

Could my right hon. Friend make clear whether there will be limitations on the use of this gas? Will he also say whether there will be safeguards for innocent persons who may be in the area? Can he assure us that this non-lethal gas will carry no toxic constituents?

My hon. Friend is quite right to be concerned about this as affecting the public. It must be remembered that it is for the protection of the public that this substance is being introduced. I give my hon. Friend the assurance that the gas would be used for dealing with armed criminals or insane persons when failure to use it might itself endanger someone else's life. I understand that there are no lasting harmful effects from its use. Notes and guidance will be issued to chief constable about its effects and on how it should be used. I give my hon. Friend the pledge that there will be strict limitations.

Although we are all very concerned to ensure that there should be adequate safeguards, this will be an effective method of dealing with the gun-toting gangsters who in true Western style are brandishing guns today in the face of Scottish policemen. Will it be equally effective with the hooligan gang warfare which is spreading fear and alarm throughout the community? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that chief constables will have full power to use this method for the effective maintenance of law in the circumstances he has mentioned?

I have already said that chief constables will have full power to use it in the strict circumstances I have outlined. I am sure that it will be effective. It will certainly prevent the destruction of life by those against whom it is used.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now make a statement on the Government's policy on the further development of hydro-electric power in Scotland.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him on the 26th May by my hon. Friend, the Joint Under-Secretary of State.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his continued failure to arrive at a decision in this matter is a grave disappointment to many people? It is now nine months since the Government took office and, as he well knows, there was a long delay prior to that. Can the right hon. Gentleman at least give me some specific indication of when this decision will be made? It is vital to the whole of Scotland, and many people on both sides of the House are concerned about this continued delay.

It would be easy to reach a decision quickly, but whether or not it would be the right decision is another matter. It is because it would have a considerable effect on the economy and life of the Highlands that we have to make sure that it is the right decision. I am sure that the hon. Member would not want me to do other than take time to ensure that the right decision is made.

What information does the right hon. Gentleman expect to receive to help him to make up his mind? Why cannot the right decision be taken now?

Because the factors involved are important to the life of the areas concerned and to a wider area. Many factors affecting the decision have developed over the 4½ years which have elapsed since the schemes were stopped and the hon. Gentleman knows that we have to study the generation of electricity in all its forms.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to enable children in the north and west of Sutherland to live in their own homes while receiving compulsory education.

I am anxious that children in thinly populated areas should have as good educational opportunities as children elsewhere, and we are considering with the education authorities concerned how this can best be achieved. Difficulties of communication, however, make it impracticable for all pupils to attend school within daily travelling distance of their homes for the whole of their school career.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there are other serious problems connected with the problem of schooling in that in the west of Sutherland we cannot get the fishermen who fish from Lochinver and Kinlochbervie to live in the area because their children have to go away at the age of 11 to schools on the east coast? If the fishermen are to remain there, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he must provide money to the county council to keep these schools open even if they normally would not be considered to have sufficient population to qualify for a grant?

This is a difficult problem in the remote areas, and here we have the bitter realities of the effects of depopulation, with the younger families going away and the school population falling to the point where one cannot give the children the proper breadth of courses and provide them with the kind of teachers required because of the size of the secondary school population. We are seized of the desire of parents that their children should be able to take up secondary courses and we must see that the children are given the best opportunities for career education in the same way as children in more populous areas.

While I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this is a difficult problem, may I express the hope that he will look at it as part of the problem of depopulation? If no schools are provided in these areas it is comparatively irrelevant what sort of education is provided for them elsewhere, because after that education they will not be there to help those areas.

This is why we have been giving considerable attention to the problem of depopulation in these areas. I hope that the Highland Development Authority set up by the Bill which we passed so recently will give considerable help and certain power to someone to do something about it in the area. The right hon. Gentleman knows the problem because he closed down some of these schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the 6,300 inquiries regarding the teacher training scheme received by his Department in the month of May have been followed by firm applications; how many of these have been accepted for training; and whether he will give comparable figures for inquiries received in June.

Since the Special Recruitment Scheme campaign was launched on 12th April, 10,392 inquiries have been received, including 5,421 in May and 3,313 in June. In the same period the Colleges of Education have received 726 applications, of which 171 have been accepted so far, 118 have been provisionally accepted pending the outcome of examinations, 151 have been deferred for further consideration until the applicants acquire certain preliminary educational qualifications and 20 have been withdrawn or rejected. The remainder have yet to be interviewed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with these percentages? It would seem that they are rather disappointing. Does he think that further steps should be taken later?

This campaign is a very much bigger one than has been mounted hitherto. The number of inquiries made and the follow-up and the number of applications received have been very heartening. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are far from dissatisfied with the position. We hope that even more inquiries will be forthcoming and that these will result in a further supply of teachers. It is very heartening to have had 10,392, bearing in mind that campaigns prior to this one had already taken people out of this field who might have been potential teachers. We hope to have a record number of teachers recruited under this scheme.

Can the right hon. Gentleman break down the figures to indicate the kind of applicants, whether women or men, and of what qualifications?

They are of all kinds, but we are going to have a greater degree of follow-up to see what happens to applicants prevented from following through to a course and find out whether or not with some help and advice they can fit themselves with qualifications and be able to take advantage of this recruitment scheme. I hope that the statistics will be available later.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends to introduce the farm business recording scheme; and whether he will make a statement.

I hope to introduce this scheme on a pilot scale in Scotland in the autumn of this year. I propose to select for this purpose two or three counties within the area of each of the three Colleges of Agriculture. The details are still being worked out in consultation with the appropriate representative organisations. A further announcement will be made as soon as possible.

I am grateful for that reply. Will there be any restriction of acreage? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether farmers who have already been keeping business records with the various colleges will be able to obtain the benefits of this scheme?

We must appreciate at the start that this is a pilot scheme and the requirements for the scheme are still to be fully worked out. Those farmers who are keeping records and come within the scheme should be eligible for grant. I hope soon not only to give further details but also to indicate in what areas in relation to the three colleges the pilot scheme will be operated.

When the scheme is fully operative, can we assess how much subsidy each farmer is receiving and whether he deserves it according to some kind of means test which the party opposite seems to favour in other fields?

My hon. Friend should be very much in support of the scheme.

I am.

He should support it because the more we get a sense of business into agriculture the more we shall be able to reduce the cost of agriculture, which will be to the benefit of everyone concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that the current proposals for Highland development will involve increased arterial drainage as a basic requirement for resettling people in the area; and what private contractors are available in the Highland area for this work as direct labour is being abandoned.

I do not know what proposals my hon. Friend has in mind, but in any case there are a number of contracting firms which undertake or could undertake arterial drainage work in the Highland area. If, in the event, it turned out that approved work could not be done for lack of contractors, I should be ready to consider making special arrangements.

The important part of my Question refers to the fact that direct labour is being abandoned. Does my right hon. Friend recall that this provision was made in the Tory Land Drainage Act of 1958, which was condemned by the Opposition at that time by bell, book and candle and described as a mouse? I am certain that no one delivered more vigorous speeches against it than my right hon. Friend himself. Will he assure us that that provision is not to be put into effect and that our direct labour department will continue?

We are dealing here with a special department of which considerable use was made during the war and thereafter, but it was, in fact, a very small department, very little call has been made upon it, and it has really become quite uneconomic. But I give my hon. Friend the assurance that, where work requires to be done, which is the important matter, we are determined to ensure that there will be facilities available, either private or public, to enable the work to be done.

Does the Secretary of State agree that direct labour departments are usually very inefficient, and will he assure the House that in no circumstances will the Highland Development Board have a direct labour department of its own?

I could not agree with anything the hon. Gentleman has said on this question. Prejudice is a very poor guide in deciding on the desirability or otherwise of using direct labour departments in this field or in any other. This department was set up because we did not have private contractors. It worked well when there was work to be done. If, in the future, we do not find private contractors able to do the work which is required for the Highland Development Board, I hope that the Highland Development Board will have the power to ensure that it can do the work.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board last increased its wayleave payments: what information he has as to how such payments, expressed in percentages, for the various categories, compare with payments made by electricity boards in England and Wales; and what are the total disbursements by the Board in this respect.

The Board last increased its standard wayleave payments in 1959. These cannot be adequately compared in percentage terms with payments in England and Wales, but I shall, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing the scales. In the year ended 31st March, 1965, the Board's payments in respect of wayleaves for transmission lines amounted to £4,500 and for distribution lines to £34,000.

In view of the increased costs which farmers have to bear with the 6 per cent. rise in electricity charges in the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board's area, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the North of Scotland Board should raise its wayleave payments in comparison with those of the South of Scotland Board?

This is a matter for the commercial judgment of the Board itself and for negotiation between the Board and the interests concerned with wayleaves.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in his discussions with the local authorities on the implementation of the Morison Committee recommendation that a single negotiating body for Great Britain should be set up to deal with salaries and conditions of service of probation officers; and, in view of the delay in settling this matter, whether he will give an undertaking that an early decision will be taken by Her Majesty's Government.

The consultations on the constitution of the employers' side of the proposed Great Britain body, referred to in the reply given to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes), by the Minister of State, Home Office, on 1st July, are in progress.

We are all gratified, and the probation officers particularly are gratified, with the decision which has been reached, but can my right hon. Friend give an idea of the date when it will be fully implemented?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that much of the delay between publication of the Morison Report in 1962 and getting the bodies together was due (a) to pay negotiations and (b) to negotiations between the local authorities. As soon as we received the last letter, dated 17th June, from the local authority associations in Scotland, we called them together for a meeting by a letter dated 18th June. They began on 6th July and, as far as I know, they are making good progress, so I do not think that there will be any great delay in coming to the desirable conclusion.

Does the Secretary of State recall the correspondence which I had with him on this subject? A solution to the problem has been delayed for far too long and should be expedited in the interests of probation officers.

I never forget any correspondence with my hon. and learned Friend because, being a persistent and very persuasive questioner, he would not allow me to. I agree that there has been delay, but I appeal to my hon. Friends who know something about the subject to remember that we are dealing here with a change to a United Kingdom body, there having been two bodies hitherto, one for England and Wales and one for Scotland. We are now getting the parties together to reach agreement, and it will have been worth a little delay if we reach the desirable conclusion.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will give an undertaking to publish the report on Border development not later than when he announces his own plans for the future of the Borders.

An account of the economic situation in the Borders, based on the study by the Scottish Economic Planning Board, will form part of the Government's published plans for the area.

Would the right hon. Gentleman care to give us the date for publication of those plans, as he failed to give us a date yesterday when we very much wanted to hear one?

The right hon. Gentleman will be disappointed again today, but I am quite sure that he will not be surprised. In drawing up long-term plans for Scotland, it would be very foolish to try to work against time and be governed by particular dates. The general indication I gave to him of later in the year—the autumn—is quite adequate and, I am sure, meets the hopes of the people of Scotland who want to see, at long last, some realistic proposals covering the whole of Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking, following his meeting with a deputation of Scottish Members, to help the fishing industry, in view of the increase in freight charges and reduction in facilities of rail transport.

As a result of the meeting of Scottish Members with the Minister of State and the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport, the views then expressed were drawn to the attention of the Railways Board. I now understand that the Board has deferred changes in transport arrangements, though not in charges, for three months to enable the industry to review its transport and marketing arrangements. I understand that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport has now written to the Members of the deputation.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that one of the undertakings given was that inspectors from the Scottish Department of Agriculture would help fishermen to overcome their problems? Does he know that, although the meeting took place six weeks ago, up to 11 o'clock this morning no inspectors have visited the port of Gourdon? Is he really concerned about the problems of these fishermen, particularly in the smaller places where there is great difficulty in co-ordinating facilities?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that my Department is very much concerned and has been able over the years to give considerable help to fishermen in these problems. But it is a difficult point, and the hon. Gentleman himself knows some of the reasons. There is the question of, in many cases, putting certain bulk loads on to road transport and leaving the railways with very much smaller loads to other areas. It is not an easy one to settle, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that, as far as possible, my Department of Agriculture will help. I do not know the reason why no one has been to the particular port the hon. Gentleman mentioned. I shall make inquiries, but I have no doubt that I shall find that my officers were in some other port with equally pressing problems.

I agree with the Secretary of State that he does not have responsibility for charges, but as these affect the small ports, mostly with inshore fishermen, is it not rather an odd moment, when these charges have gone up so greatly, to decrease the subsidy to inshore fishing?

That aspect of the subsidy to inshore fishing is not covered by the Question. The right hon. Gentleman will have an opportunity to debate in in the Scottish Grand Committee tomorrow.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what increase he anticipates will take place in local rates in Scotland in 1965–66; and when he will announce his plans on the reform of local government finance.

So far as I am aware, only 29 local authorities have announced their rate poundages for 1965–66, and they show an average increase of about 7 per cent. over last year. This is too small a sample to justify any general conclusions. The Government's plans for the reform of local government finance will be announced as soon as possible.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the estimate in the last Scottish Question Time of an increase of about 4 per cent. has proved to be nonsense? Has he seen today's Press report that the Roxburgh County rate has gone up by 15 per cent. and the Huntly burgh rate by 18 per cent.? As the Government are themselves largely responsible for these scandalous increases, is it not time that they provided early relief?

I hope that one day when the hon. Gentleman begins a supplementary question with the words, "Does the right hon. Gentleman agree …?" I shall be able to agree. I certainly do not agree with him on this issue. He should not jump to conclusions. There are 233 local authorities. Why did he not also tell us that the Fife rate poundage—and Fife is one of the largest authorities—has gone up by only 1½ per cent.?

Will my right hon. Friend discourage this continual depreciation of the value of the rate? Will he take steps to ask the Scottish Films Council, for instance, to produce a film showing people what they get for their rates and the tremendous value of local authority services? While it may be possible for the Government to relieve local authorities, is it not right that the public should be informed that the rates constitute one of the cheapest ways of getting services such as education, sanitation and the rest? It is quite scandalous to talk about the rates as being a burden.

Generally speaking, there may be some truth in what my right hon. Friend says. If people ask the local authorities to do more and more, then it costs more and more. Hon. Members are the first to ask for increased salaries for certain people in local authorities, such as the teachers, but it cannot be done without increasing the rates. They should follow through the obligations that their proposals entail. At the same time, however, there are hardships in respect of local rates and it may be that this is due to a defect within the system. These things are being examined and it is right that we should know about the situation.

rose—

Order. We only reached Question No. 18 by 10 minutes past 3. I must invoke the aid of hon. Members on both sides to get on.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied with the present legislation relating to the giving of religious instruction in Scottish schools; and if he will make a statement.

The present legislation embodies the long-standing principle that religious instruction should be provided in accordance with local wishes for pupils whose parents do not object and that there should be no control or direction by the Secretary of State. A wide measure of agreement among the educational and religious bodies concerned and the general public would be necessary before any amendment could be considered.

While I appreciate that reply, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he would agree that the nature of the law in Scotland is such that the inspectorate cannot either examine or inspect the teaching of this subject in any way and that, in consequence, there is great variety of practice? Is it not time to look again at this, since the circumstances which caused the law in its present form have changed considerably and the Church of Scotland and other Churches are quite worried about the variations in practice?

The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that the nature of the law in Scotland is related to a long history of education and the Church. We would be most unwise and foolish if we rushed to change it without bearing in mind the feelings of the general public. The hon. Gentleman should not make generalisations about the state of religious education in Scottish schools.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the prejudice of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) in relation to rates is only equalled—

Order. Supplementary questions must not be used for that sort of purpose. It is out of order.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will decide on the Scottish Tourist Board's request for a special grant; and whether he will make a statement.

I have been having discussions with the Chairman and other representatives of the Board on financial and other matters and am meeting them again later today. I hope to be able to make an announcement shortly about the outcome of these discussions.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a satisfactory outcome will be welcomed? Is he further aware that it is very necessary, when there is every appearance that this has been a bad spring and early summer for the tourist trade, that the Board should have the extra ammunition to attract tourists to the Highlands?

I sincerely hope that the outcome will be satisfactory.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in view of the unsatisfactory delay in replying to representations made by Ross and Cromarty County Council regarding the Worboys Committee's Report on Traffic Signs, if he will ensure that the Scottish Development Department replies to the Council's letter of 24th March last without further delay.

I regret the delay which was explained in the reply sent to the county council on 2nd July, a copy of which was sent to the hon. Member, and which makes clear that since a major principle was involved more time was needed to assess its effects.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply and for sending me a copy of the reply sent to the county council, may I ask him to ensure that an early decision is taken? Will he also bear in mind how important it is that Dingwall, capital of the county, a busy market centre and the gateway to areas of rapidly expanding tourism, should be enabled to have these primary route signs?

I am seized of the importance of Dingwall as the capital of Ross and Cromarty. I assure the hon. Gentleman sincerely that I think my Department slipped up in this. It should have made an earlier reply to the county council. I apologise for the delay and I hope that we shall be able to come to a fairly early conclusion.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he now has for the introduction of a minimum pricing scheme for the Scottish white fishing industry.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to the hon. Member on 19th May.

We were led to understand from the White Fish Authority that this scheme was ready. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain what is holding this up? Is it the Treasury or the Department of Economic Affairs?

The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that this is not quite so easy as his supplementary question would have us believe. This all started not a few months ago but as long ago as 1957. We have not been able to solve the problem since we received the White Fish Authority's proposals at the turn of the year, so the hon. Gentleman should not be too hard on us. This is complicated. It affects not only the fishing industry but every consumer in the country because of the price of fish and the effect on the Treasury. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that we are right to take our time in examining the scheme.

While it is understandable that the right hon. Gentleman should wish to rest on the laurels of the achievement of the last Administration, is not he aware, from the Report of the White Fish Authority, that discussions between the Authority and the trade were authorised last July, and that excellent progress had been made by the end of the year? Who has been holding up the conclusion of something on which the Authority, the trade and the producers seem to be set?

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to me or whether he looked at the files on this while he was still at the Scottish Office during the previous Administration of which he is so proud. Had he done either, he would have realised that, between 1957 and 1964, the last Government were not able to do anything about this at all.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to expand the school building programme in Bearsden and Clydebank.

Dunbartonshire Education Authority's share of the capital investment available for school building is large enough to allow it to make good progress in these areas; four schools are under construction and four more are being planned.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, as a result of savage cuts in 1962 and 1963 by the Department in Edinburgh, the situation in Bearsden and Clydebank is that we are not keeping pace with the number of children reaching school age? Will he speed up the programme in order to overcome the serious frustrations of the last 10 years?

My hon. Friend would like more to be done, and so would I. But we have to take due account of the available resources. I am satisfied that Dunbartonshire is getting its fair share of the resources available.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to speed up the provision of the proposed primary school at Oxgangs, Kirkintilloch.

Dunbartonshire Education Authority propose to start this school in April, 1966. Any question of starting earlier would be for the authority to consider.

I am very disappointed with my right hon. Friend's reply. This school has been under consideration for a very long time. As Kirkintilloch has an overspill agreement with Glasgow, the number of children coming forward for primary education has made it impossible to accommodate them unless extra primary accommodation is provided in Kirkintilloch at an early date.

I am sure that my hon. Friend would be the last to invite me to exercise tyrannical powers over the county council. Responsibility for deciding priority in schools selected for starting rests and must rest with the county council, as my hon. Friend will agree. I have no desire to interfere with that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that a large part of the Scottish National Museum's collections of art and treasures under the care of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Edinburgh are stored away and not accessible to the public or to scolars wishing to work on them, and that there are available for the public exhibition of those collections space and facilities in Aberdeen; and if he will, in the public interest, transfer to Aberdeen those treasures which are now in storage.

The disposition of articles held by the National Museum of Antiquities of Scotland is a matter for the trustees whose policy, I am informed, is to keep on permanent exhibition a high proportion of their collection, including all objects which are of outstanding historical or aesthetic importance. Scholars who wish to work on items in the collections are given all necessary facilities.

Surely the Secretary of State cannot divest himself of responsibility in this matter. Is it not a national disgrace that treasures of this kind should be hidden away from scholars and others, who could study them and write about them, when in Aberdeen there are ample space and facilities for storing and exhibiting them to scholars who want to study them and write about them? Will my right hon. Friend review the policy to see that they are made available to scholars?

In Aberdeen!

In Aberdeen.

I assure my hon. and learned Friend that I know of his prejudices about the accessibility of Aberdeen as against Edinburgh, but the Scottish National Museum of Antiquities in Edinburgh is readily accessible to all scholars who wish to avail themselves of the opportunity to study there. We are quite willing to make available in Aberdeen or elsewhere for temporary exhibition the treasures which my hon. and learned Friend has mentioned.

Does the Secretary of State realise that a very important question is involved and is causing a great deal of public concern throughout Scotland? Is he doing anything to reconsider the policy that the central museums in Edinburgh should have the right to store these articles and themselves to say that they are most accessible to students and scholars? Would he not agree that the St. Ninian's treasures, for example, should be permanently housed in Aberdeen where they were found—at least, by whose professors they were found—until a suitable museum is established in Shetland? Does he not realise that, both for local history and for tourism, the policy ought to be changed?

It is amazing how changing sides in the House changes views. The hon. Lady knows quite well that St. Ninian's treasure was not found in Aberdeen. It was found by Aberdeen archaeologists working in Shetland. But it is a national treasure. As she knows, this issue was taken to law and a legal decision about it was made. What she really wants us to do is to upset the longstanding law of treasure trove. What we have to appreciate is that if we are to have national museums, Scottish or British, they will have to contain treasures and exhibits of considerable national importance and that may well deprive local people of what they would like to have in their areas. We have said that we are ready to make these treasures available in Aberdeen and Shetland on temporary exhibition at specific times.

I hereby give notice that I shall raise this important matter on the Adjournment when an opportunity arises.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what arrangements have been made for the sittings of the Scottish Law Commission; how much time it is intended that the Commissioners will devote to the work of the Commission; and what salaries and remuneration are to be paid.

The arrangements for sittings are a matter for the Commission itself, which met for the first time on 30th June; the Chairman's appointment is on a full-time basis and the other members are to devote on average about two days per week to the Commission's work; the Chairman retains his remuneration as a Court of Session Judge and the other members are being remunerated at the rate of £2,000 per annum.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he and the Lord Advocate satisfied that two days a week will be adequate for this small body to cope with the volume of law reform which we all understood we were to have? There may be some disappointment in the profession that the work of the Commission is to be confined to such a relatively short time.

On available information, the Commission as at present organised should be adequate to its task. However, I am sure that if experience were to show otherwise, other arrangements would be made by the Commission.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what correlation there will be between the work of this Commission and that of the Commission established in England by the Lord Chancellor?

Arrangements have been made for correlation. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that this matter was dealt with in the discussions of the Bill.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is intended to retain the Lord Advocate's Law Reform Committee; and what remits have been made to this Committee since October, 1964.

My right hon. Friend, the Lord Advocate, attaches great value to the services which have been given by the members of the Scottish Law Reform Committee, and he is at present considering, in consultation with the Scottish Law Commission, the possibility of enabling the Committee, probably with somewhat different terms of reference, to make a continuing contribution to the work of law reform. No remits have been made to the Committee since May, 1962.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is most unfortunate that the opportunity to use the services of this Committee, which was reconstituted under the last Administration, has not been taken over the last eight or nine months?

I do not know why the hon. and learned Gentleman sticks at eight or nine months. The last remit was in 1962. Let him be fair about this and be as we know him—much more objective as a good lawyer rather than playing the party politician.

The right hon. Gentleman overlooked my observation that the Committee was recently reconstituted. It was reconstituted only last summer. Would he not agree that now is the time to take full advantage of its services?

We will take full advantage of the Committee. We ought to take full advantage of any arrangements that can be made for its further use in co-operation with the Law Commission. In all senses it will probably turn out for the better for Scottish law.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many applications under the Farm Improvement Scheme have been received by his Department since 1st November, 1964, for the construction of grain drying plant and storage bins; what proportion of these have now been completed; and what representations he has received about the difficulty of completing the remainder in time for the 1965 harvest on account of the shortage of cement.

I regret that the information asked for in the first two parts of the Question cannot be given without going through some 2,000 applications for farm improvement grants on buildings of all kinds as no separate statistics are kept about grain stores. As regards the last part, I have received representations from the National Farmers' Union about a shortage in one area and I am in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Public Building and Works concerning this.

In view of the bad weather which we have been suffering in Scotland, and as much of the barley is already flat, would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there will be a great need for every drying facility at the end of this harvest? Would it not therefore be right for him to urge his right hon. Friend to give priority to cement to finish grain drying plant?

I have already been in touch with my right hon. Friend about this to ensure that, where there is an indication of shortage, action will be taken.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I am grateful to him for the action which he and his right hon. Friend took on the Borders N.F.U.'s application in this respect?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to encourage seed potato growers to provide a satisfactory product for the English and overseas markets.

My Department, in collaboration with representatives of the seed potato growers and merchants, is working on a programme designed to tighten up and improve the standards of the Scottish Seed Potato Certification Scheme. Arrangements for stepping up check inspections of seed potatoes on farms under the Seed Potato Inspection Order are under consideration, and a review of inspection standards for export purposes is to be undertaken.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider running a pilot scheme financed by growers to extend the checking of potatoes to those which are not stock seed? Would he further consider extending the publicity about research into damage to potatoes so that farmers are made more aware of how they can help in this matter?

I dealt with research when we discussed the matter in the Scottish Grand Committee. What the hon. Gentleman suggests is being done. I think that we should wait to see how the present arrangements improve the position before we go further into the kind of pilot scheme which, I know, the hon. Gentleman would like to see.