asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied with the progress made in implementing smoke control orders in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on his policy for extension of clean air zones.

I am concerned that only 21 local authorities out of the 80 or so in areas where pollution is heaviest have so far made smoke control area orders. In a recent letter which my right hon. Friend sent to those authorities which have made little or no progress he warned them that unless they submit and carry out planned programmes it may be necessary to consider legislation making smoke control a statutory duty.

Would the Under-Secretary of State agree that one of the reasons for lack of progress is that in some cases because of smoke control orders unbelievable confusion has arisen which is a cause of individual hardship? Would he be prepared at this stage to do a survey in one such area where there is a smoke control order to see how this problem can be avoided elsewhere?

I quite appreciate the hon. Member's concern because he and I have had a considerable correspondence involving his own area, and I can quite understand the difficulties, some of which, however, are not entirely due to the instructions. I am perfectly willing to look into this matter to see if, in consequence of what the hon. Member has said, we can do something like this.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give the terms of reference and member- ship of the proposed Royal Commission on Local Government in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what will be the terms of reference of the Royal Commission to consider the reorganisation of local government in Scotland; and when it is expected it will report.

The terms of reference of the Royal Commission are now being framed and I will shortly be consulting the local authority associations about them. The intention is that the Commission should be a small authoritative body. It will settle its own timetable, but I hope that it will not take more than two years to report.

In the unlikely event of the present Government being returned to power, would the Secretary of State give very wide publicity to the Commission so that residents, tenants, and owner-occupiers' association will know how to go about submitting evidence?

I think the hon. Gentleman can take it that when we are returned we shall give every publicity to the work of the Commission and to how anyone who wishes to submit memoranda will be able to do so.

What are the Government's intentions, then, about all the work which has been done following the White Paper of over two years ago on the modernisation of local government? Is all this to be wasted? It is now being held up?

I think we have answered this question a few times. I am sorry about the hon. Gentleman's memory slipping. None of that work will be wasted. The hon. Gentleman knows quite well that the working party's last report was submitted to the steering committee as a summary of conclusions, and it indicated a very wide divergence of opinion about the structure. All the good fruits of it will be available to the Royal Commission.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in considering the terms of reference of the Royal Commission, bear in mind the Motion, tabled by my hon. Friends and three of his, and calling for an extension of the terms of reference?

Since we do not know the terms of reference it is difficult to see what extension will be required, is it not? But I will take into account all that is relevant.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he proposes to take in order to arrest the falling-off in the numbers of doctors engaged in general practice.

I believe that the measures in hand to provide better conditions for general practice, including the proposals for a new contract which are at present under discussion, will encourage doctors to enter and to remain in the family doctor service.

Will the hon. Lady confirm that throughout every year up to 1963 there was a steady increase in the number of medical practitioners at work in Scotland; that in the last half of 1964 the decline began, and there were nine who retired or emigrated; and that in the last half of 1965 that was quadrupled to 38? Does she regard that as satisfactory?

Certainly I should not have thought that the hon. Gentleman would have regarded it as satisfactory, because he will remember that it is the decisions of a previous Government in 1957 about the training of doctors which are determining the numbers coming into the profession at the moment. That is why we are examining the question with the Royal Commission on Medical Education as a matter of extreme urgency.

The hon. Lady must be a little more honest with the House. It is not a question of the number of people coming in but the number of people leaving. That has quadrupled.

The right hon. Gentleman is forgetting the fact that, when people grow old, they retire. What matters is the number of young entrants coming in. We are not deeply concerned about emigration. We are satisfied that many medical students wish to work for a few months in America, for example, and then come back. The basic question is that of training enough young doctors to replace those who retire.

Does not the fall in the number of doctors mean that the number of patients that a doctor has to look after is higher than at any time since 1950?

Only fractionally. If the hon. Gentleman wants the numbers, there are over 2,600 doctors providing medical services in Scotland at the moment, compared with, to go back three or four years, about 30, 40 or 50 more. That is accounted for by the fact that we have not so many young people coming in at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he gave to the deputation from Edinburgh Corporation and other interested bodies on the subject of the exclusion of Edinburgh, Leith and Portobello from the new development area.

My hon. Friend the Minister of State, Board of Trade and I explained the Government's view that, having regard to the persistently low level of unemployment and to the rates of employment and population growth in the area, the Government did not feel justified in including Edinburgh, Leith and Portobello in the initial list of development areas. We undertook however to take full account of the points made by the deputation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take particular note of the fact that, as it is his intention to allow every single square inch of Scotland to receive a 40 per cent. investment grant up to the boundaries of Edinburgh City, that is certain to mean that new industries will not site themselves on the Leith dock-side? Is not that a paramount absurdity, after all the money that has been expended and all the work that has been done there?

I do not think so. We have to take account of all the facts. As I said to the deputation, I would be prepared to be persuaded if there were urgent reasons in relation to any relevant portion that could be extracted. The hon. Gentleman must make up his mind. He voted against these incentives, not thinking them worth while. He voted in response to speeches by his leader saying that we were spreading the jam too far. Now he asks us to spread it a little further.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that if we have to have his new system, which we think is much inferior to our own method of boosting industrial expansion in Scotland, at least it should have some semblance of fairness and not exclude one little pocket in the whole area from John O'Groats to near York by this penally exclusive treatment that he is giving it, and will he at least consider—

Order. This is getting too long.

Will he consider including applications from specific industries which may be beneficial to the development of Edinburgh and, in particular, Leith?

I would advise the noble Lord to look at the planning review that was passed by Edinburgh City just the other week. It resolved that it did not want the urbanisation of the city, and envisaged the move of industry outwith Edinburgh. He and his hon. Friends had better make up their minds to tell the truth to the people of Scotland. They want other places left out. Does he want Berwick, East Lothian, Ayr and Perth left out, because we are spreading the jam too thick?

Will the right hon. Gentleman say that he is quite certain that Leith will not be included in his schemes, or can we look for some election bribe between now and polling day?

The hon. Gentleman should realise that what new areas will be in will be covered by a Bill. When we get that Bill, and if the hon. Gentleman is still here, he can use his powers of oratory to try to persuade me what should be in, and I hope that something can be done.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, owing to the continued efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Ediburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy), assurances have been received from the Board of Trade that incentives will be available in the Leith Dock area? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Yes, it is published. Read your papers.

Order. It is getting too long, and I do read my papers. Mr. Ross.

I can assure my hon. Friend that I have been in consultation with my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Hoy), who is present today and will be back to take part in the discussions about this.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will invite the Tay Road Bridge Joint Board to reconsider its proposal for a 10s. toll on commercial vehicles using the Tay Road Bridge.

No, Sir. It would be improper for my right hon. Friend to consider this proposal until the procedure prescribed in the Tay Road Bridge Order, 1962, has been carried out.

In view of the pledges given by the party opposite about this matter at the last election, could the hon. Gentleman at least undertake that in the unlikely event of the Labour Government having to take this decision, they will set their minds against any suggestion of a 10s. toll, which will drive heavy vehicles off the Tay Road Bridge altogether?

I much regret that the hon. Gentleman was not here to debate this matter on Friday, when I made it clear that, under Section 83, certain proper procedures had to be carried out, and the Secretary of State could not pass comment on these matters, despite the blandishments of the hon. Gentleman, without breaching the Statute.

Is my hon. Friend aware that if tolls are charged at all on the bridge, the County of Fife will be the only county in Britain where one has to pay to get in and pay to get out?

Will the right hon. Gentleman, during the short period that he has this under consideration, none the less bear in mind the advantages of a low flat-rate toll such as has been operating on the Forth Bridge?

The Secretary of State will probably show more sensibility about this than his predecessor.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to prohibit the export from Scotland of live animals for slaughter abroad.

As a welfare measure, the export of live animals for slaughter is limited to those countries which have given the Balfour Assurances. My right hon. Friend would not feel justified in present circumstances in placing further restrictions on the trade at the present time.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that, when the animals leave these shores, we have no physical control over them, and there is cruelty? If in the next Parliament I bring in a Bill from those benches, will he and his colleagues support it?

The assurances are given from one Government to another, and we would not expect them to be very lightly disregarded. If the hon. Gentleman has specific cases in mind and he sends them along, we will be quite pleased to look at them.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that, while we may have regulations and assurances, it is the case that both of these are evaded when cattle are being exported? Would not one aid in averting the suffering be achieved by slaughtering the animals before they are exported? Why cannot that be done?

In general, there is an increasing demand for live animals rather than slaughtered animals. With regard to the first part of the Question, if my hon. Friend has any specific case, we should be quite pleased to look at it.

Would not the hon. Gentleman admit that it is far preferable that we should send carcase meat abroad where it is intended for consumption, rather than live animals? Will he do his best to see that our slaughterhouse accommodation is brought up to the necessary standards, and not be obstructive when people wish to do that?

I do not accept that we are obstructive in this matter. Rather the opposite is the case. With regard to the first part of the Question, the fact is that there is an increasing demand for live animals, and the question that we have to ask ourselves is whether or not we are going to lose this trade rather than send the animals that are desired. We feel that, in view of the assurances that are given as a result of the Balfour assurances, there is no need at the present time to make any change.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Scottish Economic Planning Board has yet carried out its study of future development and transport requirements in the north-east of Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the Scottish Economic Planning Board has yet completed its survey of the development and transport requirements of the Borders.

The White Paper on the Scottish Economy included comprehensive surveys of the economic resources and prospects of these regions and proposals for their development. The implementation of these proposals and their adaptation to changing circumstances will be a matter for the regional consultative groups which I am setting up.

As at least one important decision on transport in the North-East is apparently awaiting the result of such an inquiry, can the hon. Gentleman give any indication when this further consultative group will have completed its studies?

I think the hon. Gentleman realises that the Vice-Chairman of the Scottish Economic Planning Council was in the area yesterday, and I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have read with interest, and will applaud, the result of that visit, as it is likely that we will have the consultative group set up very shortly, as soon as we are returned to power.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say why he is apparently satisfied with the part of the plan which refers to the north-east of Scotland, particularly the Aberdeen area? Does he realise that there is no specific proposal, in spite of everything which a Labour Government promised to do?

I assure the hon. Lady that now, for the first time, we are bringing Aberdeen into the picture, as she said it should be about three years ago, but her Government never did anything about it. We are now proceeding from the point of strategy to tactics, and with the help and support of the people in the area, and the new investment policy, I see a far brighter future for Aberdeen than the hon. Lady does.

Does the right hon. Gentleman's first answer mean that the question of the possible closure of the Waverley-Carlisle line will be referred to the new consultative group for the Borders?

I think that if the hon. Gentleman waits in patience he will find that there is a Question on the Order Paper about this.

As the right hon. Gentleman's only hope for the North-East was to congratulate them on their fertility, does he regard this as strategy or tactics?

The right hon. Gentleman has based his question on a wrong premise. We have already given attention to Aberdeen by the development of new factories and new industrial areas there, and we have not finished by a long chalk.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what effects the re-programming of investment by departments will have on his estimates for public investment in Scotland in the current year contained in paragraph 372 of the White Paper on the Scottish Economy, Command Paper No. 2864.

None, Sir. The estimates in the White Paper took full account of the effects of the policy which was introduced on 27th July last year and is now being continued in a more flexible form.

Does not that mean that either the Chancellor's statement on 8th February was a sham, or the figures in the Scottish White Paper which was published earlier are entirely meaningless?

No, Sir. I think it means that the hon. Gentleman is not capable of comprehending what was said.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action has so far been taken under the Rivers (Prevention of Pollution) (Scotland) Act, 1965, in relation to tidal waters.

Progress is being made towards fixing the appointed day for Section I, which cannot be before 2nd August, 1966, and making regulations under Section 3. We are also considering applications for orders extending Sections I to 3 to the Firth of Clyde and Findhorn Bay.

Does this mean that no pollution has taken place so far, or that nobody has noticed it if it has taken place? How many individuals will the right hon. Gentleman have engaged in reporting to him when it does occur?

I think that the hon. Gentleman had better wait until we get the appointed day, until we get the new applications dealt with. The hon. Gentleman knows that the purification boards are concerned about these matters, and that things do not go unnoticed.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many recruits joined the police in Scotland in each of the past five years; and what was the total net increase in the police force over the past 12 months.

As the first part of the answer contains a table of figures I shall, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The total net increase in 1965 was 305 men and 14 women.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the people of Scotland are becoming increasingly anxious that the Government are not doing nearly enough to support the police forces in their battle against crime? What steps will he take to try to supplement the police by further recruitment of women to relieve men of the less important duties?

I am not aware of the state of affairs referred to in the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

Go to Scotland and find out.

I have probably been in Scotland more than the right hon. Gentleman, who seems to have spent a considerable part of his time abroad recently. With regard to the second question, we shall of course continue with the measures which are bringing in the recruits at the present time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total strength of the police force in Scotland; how this compares with the required establishment; and what are the comparable figures for the North-Eastern Constabulary.

At 31st December, 1965, the total strength of the police in Scotland was 9,994 men and 353 women, which was 682 men and 48 women short of authorised establishment. The figures for Scottish North-Eastern counties were 329 men—excluding three officers on secondment or central service—and 6 women, which was one man short of authorised establishment.

Have the Minister of State and his right hon. Friend considered using traffic wardens for the direction of traffic, thereby freeing the police for their fine and essential job of prevention of crime and apprehension of criminals?

Yes. This is a matter, of course, for the chief constables. We pointed out to chief constables a week or two ago that they could do this and that we hoped that they would.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many rotary and air-blowing snow ploughs are available for use on roads in Scotland.

The Scottish Development Department has 20 rotary blower ploughs for use on trunk roads. Information as to the number held by local authorities is not available.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that that number is inadequate in view of the indiscriminate closure of railway lines by his right hon. Friend the former Minister of Transport, and will he take immediate steps to increase the number?

That may be true in some parts of Scotland, but not in Aberdeen-shire, which is a well-equipped county. During the next three years I hope to increase the number of departmentally-owned vehicles equipped for heavy ploughing, which should help in the North and north-eastern counties.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has reached a decision on the proposed road joining Upper Deeside and Glen Feshie, in view of the statement by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on 19th March, 1965, that this road should be considered in the context of the Scottish Economic Planning Board's study of the Highlands.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer which my right hon. Friend gave to his hon. and learned Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) on 2nd March.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that a year is far too long a time to consider this road which is vital to the interests of the north of Scotland? The trouble is not lack of money. Will he therefore use the short time available to him to persuade his right hon. Friends in the Treasury to disgorge some money?

I think that we have plenty of time. Following a discussion that we had earlier on this matter—and I was grateful to both counties that they were willing to agree to a 75 per cent. grant and not demand anything higher—this matter, along with 33 other proposals—and I should not like to go into the priority of them—has been referred to the Highlands and Islands Development Board, which, after all, only began late last year. After the Board has made its recommendations, they will go to the Scottish Economic Planning Council, of which my right hon. Friend is Chairman.

Can the hon. Gentleman give us no idea of how long this process is going to take? Secondly, will he bear in mind particularly the advantages to tourism and to the pulp mill in the West?

Very much so, and in view of the last 17 months of dynamism which we have shown the country, we can expect a great deal more progress in the coming years under the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what expenditure is planned on police and prisons in Scotland to the year 1970–71.

Over £120 million in the period 1965–66 to 1969–70 at 1965 prices. Expenditure in 1970–71 has not yet been estimated.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what prison building is proposed in this estimate, particularly of remand centres, to relieve the present overcrowding in prisons? Secondly, is he aware that the people of Scotland will be astonished at his last remark that he is not aware that the people of Scotland are concerned about crime?

I did not say that. With regard to prison building, we have a programme of prison extensions and alterations, and we hope to build a new prison very shortly, all of which will help to relieve the present situation in Scottish prisons.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many more teachers will be required in Scotland by 1970–71.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the progress towards getting enough teachers in Scotland to raise the school-leaving age in 1970.

About 4,500 additional teachers will be needed for the raising of the school-leaving age in 1970–71. I esimate that a further 8,400 more than were in employment in 1964 would be needed if we were at the same time to get rid of oversized classes, to end the employment of uncertificated teachers and to fill all vacancies. The number available should have increased substantially by then, and I would refer the hon. Lady to my right hon. Friend's reply of 2nd February to my hon. Friend, the Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton).

Will the hon. Lady say whether she is satisfied that she will be able to recruit enough teachers to keep to the decision to raise the school-leaving age in 1970? Can she further say whether any new proposals are being made to attract more teachers?

As I believe the noble Lady knows, I have been engaged in what we call open-ended discussions with the teachers' organisations. In the five meetings that we have had these have been largely concerned with exploring their attitudes to new courses of the kind recommended to us by the Scottish Council for the Training of Teachers. It is a very complex problem. It is clear that we can meet almost all the deficiencies in many ways by the stimulus that we are giving to recruitment and the expansion of colleges of education, but if we want to meet the requirements fully there is no double that new sources of supply are needed.

Is the hon. Lady aware of the very serious damage that was done to the confidence of teachers in Scotland by the action of her right hon. Friend in recent weeks? Will she and her right hon. Friend take the most urgent action in order to try to regain some of the confidence of the teachers in the future of the teaching profession in Scotland? Is she aware that if she does not succeed in doing this there is no possibility of meeting educational needs in 1970?

This is one subject that ought not to be treated as a matter of party politics or electioneering. I agree that the teachers were disturbed by the reference to the National Board for Prices and Incomes, but there are two things which should be fully understood by the teaching profession. One is that my right hon. Friend has awarded it 13 per cent., and the Board is considering what else may be required. The other is that there has never been a Government who have so gone out of their way, during their short period in office, to consult and discuss with the teaching profession the many problems facing Scottish education. This is a new development, and the teachers recognise it.

rose—

Order. Our productivity rate is declining.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many male prisoners were sleeping three or more to a room at the end of 1965.

504, besides those in dormitories at Aberdeen and Penninghame Open Prison.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this state of affairs imposes a very heavy strain on the prison service and the prison officers' service? Are not we in danger of reaching a situation in respect of prisons that has been reached in the case of remand homes in Glasgow, where the courts have been told by the Secretary of State for Scotland not to send any more boys there?

This is a most regrettable situation, but it should have been tackled many years ago. Hon. Members opposite have some responsibility for this. We are now proceeding with the highest ever prison building programme. Last year we provided 100 additional places and this year we hope to provide an additional 120 places. These are for young offenders, but they will relieve the overcrowding in the prisons themselves.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether this very high rate of prison building is in addition to what was planned, or is it covered by the plan we left him?

To be quite honest, the right hon. Gentleman increased the building programme in 1964, which was an election year. The rate has now reached a record level.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent disciplinary procedure is precluded by the prison rules when a report has been made to the procurator fiscal; and if he will have the rules amended.

Under the prison rules the governor is required to investigate any reported offence against discipline by a prisoner not later than the following day, and this time limit has given rise to some difficulties in cases which have been reported to the procurator fiscal. I am advised, however, that the requirement of the rules would be met by a preliminary investigation which need not interfere with police action, and governors are being instructed to adopt this procedure in appropriate cases in future.

I am obliged for that reply. The hon. Gentleman is aware that the prison service has been concerned about what appears to be a hiatus between inquiries by the prison authorities and proceedings by the procurator fiscal?

The case that the hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind arose as a result of a request from the prison officers in Peterhead. We are aware of the difficulties, and they are being put right.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied that there will be specialist staff as recommended in the Wright Report avail able at the Victoria Hospital, Kirkcaldy, when the extension opens later this year; and if he will make a statement.

I am satisfied that specialist staff as recommended in the Wright Report will be available.

Does not the hon. Lady agree that in view of the fact that an answer was given by her right hon. Friend which showed that there was inadequate staff to meet the Wright requirements of the Edinburgh Hospital, it is over-optimistic on her part to think that there will be adequate staff available for the Victoria Hospital when it opens?

The hon. Member will remember the discussions that he had with me in January on this question. We are not concerned here with any difficulty of recruiting staff. Since January there have been a number of meetings between my officials and the regional hospital board, and on the basis of a little extra money given to them we are certain that the staffing difficulties can be met.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if shortage of staff is preventing use being made of any new hospitals or wards of existing hospitals.

Staff shortage is not preventing use being made of new hospitals. A few wards in existing hospitals are sometimes out of use, but staff shortages are seldom the only cause of this.

Is it not a fact that the hospital extension recently opened in Wick has been delayed because of the shortage of staff and when the new Victoria Hospital extension opens later this year it will be necessary to close the old hospital in order to transfer its staff so as to open the other one?

There are many other factors concerning the closure of the orthopaedic hospital in Kirkcaldy. In general we do not expect any difficulty in recruiting staff for the new hospital in Kirkcaldy. This is because, in general terms, all over Scotland recruitment is going very well, and the number of nurses is increasing. We have no evidence to support the kind of claims made by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware that Scotland's council house system is out of date; and if he will take steps to ensure that wealthy people living in subsidised council houses pay an appropriate rent.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the present council house system in relation to finance; and what steps he intends to take to alleviate the burden of interest charges on local authorities in making housing provision.

In our White Paper on The Scottish Housing Programme, 1965–70, we said that if the local authorities are to be able to carry out the expanded house-building programmes which are essential it is necessary to ease the rate burden by improving the Exchequer subsidies and by pursuing sensible rent policies; that, because of the uncertainty caused by high and sometimes sharply fluctuating rates of interest, the Government propose that the main Exchequer subsidy should be related to a stable interest rate of 4 per cent.; and that the more generous subsidies create an opportunity for all authorities to review their rent policies, so as to ensure that reasonable levels of rents and adequate rent rebate schemes avoid hardship and unfairness to local authority tenants and ratepayers alike.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that is a thoroughly unsatisfactory Answer? It does not begin to answer the Question that I put. I want to know what he is going to do to ensure that people pay what they can afford to pay for their houses, in the same way as they pay what they can afford to pay in respect of taxes.

If the hon. Member would look forward with a little less anger and look back to see what he did when he was an Under-Secretary, he would not speak so intemperately. He will be aware that the statutory position is that the fixing of rents is a matter for local authorities. One of the reasons why right hon. Gentlemen opposite failed in house building in Scotland was that they tried to nark, badger and force local authorities, as a result of which they rapidly got nowhere. The trouble with the hon. Gentleman is that there are so many bees buzzing in his bonnet that they warp his judgment. The Member of Parliament who presumes to call local authority tenants second-rate citizens declares himself to be a third-rate M.P.

Order. That answer was far too long.

Is it not the case that the owner-occupier paying Income Tax at the standard rate gets a much larger subsidy than does the council tenant? Does my right hon. Friend recollect that not only the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) has referred to council tenants in these terms? The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) described them as shiftless council tenants some years ago.

We should get the heat out of this matter. What Scotland requires is a much augmented programme of local authority building and building for private ownership—owner-occupation. The Government, with their new subsidy rates for local authorities and their help to owner-occupiers, will achieve precisely that.

First of all, might I say in passing to the Secretary of State—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] Might I ask him whether he is aware that his hon. Friend has a very inaccurate memory? Secondly, in view of the fact that the General Election has cut the Bill to which he refers, has he any other proposal to make to local authorities for rent rebate schemes which are fair and just?

The noble Lady should appreciate that no one has a better memory for what she said in the Scottish Grand Committee than I have and I can remember the day she said it. On the rent rebate scheme, she knows that local authorities have this power at the moment and they are increasingly using it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking to encourage local authorities in Scotland to operate rent differential schemes.

In the White Paper published last autumn, in a circular sent to Scottish local authorities on 25th February, and in many meetings which my right hon. Friend and I have had with individual authorities, on housing, we have urged the importance of adequate rent rebate schemes, which can enable reasonable rents to be charged without causing hardship to tenants with low incomes.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing in England, who said that the state of council house finances was medieval and that something should be done about it? Would he not agree that it is necessary that these rent rebate schemes should be very much the same throughout the country, otherwise the result is the immobility of labour which has done so much harm to Scotland?

I always agree with my right hon. Friends the Minister of Housing and the Secretary of State for Scotland. I confirm what the hon. Member said about the idea of having rent rebate schemes which are reasonable. At the moment, on the November, 1965, return, 88 authorities now operate rent rebate schemes, covering 78 per cent. of all council houses in Scotland. That is a record.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I represent the hon. Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) in this House, that he lives in South Ayrshire and that he does not represent anybody here?

Does the hon. Gentleman also agree with what the Minister of Housing said in a national newspaper—that wealthy persons should be charged a high rent?

This is entirely a matter for the local authorities to decide. There are some local authorities which operate differential rent schemes. This is entirely a matter of local democracy and the hon. Gentleman should trust the local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to receive the report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on the question of teachers' salaries in Scotland.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which I gave on 8th March to the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I recollect that reply? Is he also aware that there is a certain unrest among teachers in Scotland following the furious conflict between the replies given by the right hon. Gentleman on this question and the original terms of reference on which he referred this matter to the Prices and Incomes Board? He has apparently prejudged the findings of the Board. Indeed, his hon. Friend made it plain earlier today that the Board might recommend more than the right hon. Gentleman put forward in the first place. What is the precise position on the Prices and Incomes Board?

The Question asked when I expected to receive the Report. If the hon. Gentleman would look through the Answers in the House to the very questions which he has asked, he will find them all there. The trouble is that I cannot endow hon. Gentlemen opposite with reasonable intelligence properly to interpret ordinary English.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the Government's policy towards the Kilbrandon Report's recommendations regarding juvenile offenders; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave on 9th February to my hon. Friend, the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. Garrow.).

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a month has now passed, during which I hope that he has reached a decision on this matter? Is he aware that there is great uncertainty in Scotland among those who have responsibility for juvenile offenders—particularly among probation officers? Will he try to put this uncertainty at rest by making some clear statement of the Government's intentions one way or another?

I do not know where the hon. Member gets his information. We discussed this with the probation officers a week or so ago, so they know what the policy is and what we are doing about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now alter his revised Hospital Plan for Scotland, to bring forward the building of the South Ayrshire Hospital so that it may be started before 1970.

No, Sir. I am sorry that I am unable, at present, to find a place in the hospital building programme before 1970 for this particular project which was deferred by the previous administration in 1964.

Could the right hon. Gentleman confirm that he was specifically asked by the Western Regional Hospital Board to include these projects in this revised Hospital Plan? Does he not agree that it is incredible, after all that he and his right hon. Friends have said about the original postponement, that they have not had the courage to put it back now?

On the first point, the answer is, "Yes". The answer we gave to the board was that we were tied by the amount of capital investment available for hospitals in Scotland. That is the reason why it was dropped in the first place and why I cannot perform miracles and put this one in. We suggested to the regional hospital board that, if it was prepared to drop out something else and give priority to this, it could do it, but it was not prepared to do that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he will take to assist the dental profession in Scotland, in view of the loss of investment allowances for dental equipment and its ineligibility for the new investment grants.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to a Question by the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. G. Campbell) on 8th February. It is not a matter that calls for action on the part of my right hon. Friend.

Does not the hon. Lady agree, however, that these dentists—particularly young dentists—will be 10 per cent. worse off as a result of the new arrangements? Does she not agree that it is a very bad thing that young people starting out in their profession should have to face this additional hazard?

This is exactly the question with which the Chief Secretary was dealing. It is only remuneration before tax which is a matter for the health Ministers, so I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman must await his luck to see whether he is here after the election to put that question to my right hon. Friend.

Will the hon. Lady represent to her right hon. Friends that this is the only extractive industry which is excluded under the new investment allowances?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what particular projects have so far received financial assistance from the Highland Development Board or have been promised such assistance for development of all kinds.

It would not be right for me to give information about individual projects, but I can say that the Board has made offers of financial assistance totalling £64,000 for 14 projects within its area. Loans totalling £11,500 have so far been made in respect of two projects.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give us an estimate of the total expenditure by the Board in its first year of operation? Is he aware that the Highland Development Board is extremely displeased with the Government's new incentive scheme for development of industry?

I think that it would be unwise for me to try to estimate the expenditure. It will depend on the number of projects which come forward and the number which the Board approves. It has to date received 106 applications. I think that most people are satisfied with the amount which it has been able to do in the four months of its existence. On statements which have been made about the feelings about the new incentive policy, I wish that people would quote this accurately and not attribute remarks to someone who did not make them. It was not the Chairman of the Board who made this statement: it was issued from the Board and the Board said that it would need more time to examine. The House should remember that—

Order. There are still many Questions on the Order Paper.

If the Board is not satisfied with the present scheme, it can come back to me with a new one.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for providing more detention centres in Scotland.

A new detention centre is under construction at Glenochil in Clackmannanshire. The first part, which will provide 120 places, will be opened in the autumn of this year. The remainder, giving a further 60 places, should be available early next year.

Is the hon. Member aware that at present young offenders who could be sent to detention centres are being sent to prison? Could he say whether the Glenochil detention centre will accommodate the present surplus who are having to go to prison and who would be much better accommodated in detention centres?

Young offenders do not go to prison. They go to young offenders' institutions. This centre should accommodate any additional offenders there might be.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what restrictions are being placed on the recruitment of hospital staff.

I am not aware of any general restrictions on recruitment.

Is the hon. Lady aware that her Department advised the North-East Hospital Board to restrict recruitment shortly before the end of the year? Does she consider this to be in the interests of hospital patients and in the interests of hospital services generally in the north-east of Scotland?

The hon. Member must be in some confusion about this. We have placed no restriction on recruitment and until the present election period, when the campaign stopped, we have been trying our best to recruit more nurses. We have had a vigorous campaign going on, which has been remarkably successful, and the number of nurses is growing. But if the hon. Member has some information to give me, I shall be pleased to look at it, although I think he is confused.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether his approval of the increased charges for MacBrayne's ships to the Islands was made after consultation with the Highland Development Board; and what effect he estimates these increases will have on the maintenance of population in the areas affected.

The Highlands and Islands Development Board was informed of the increases before they were announced. I do not expect that the increases will have any significant effect on the maintenance of population in the areas affected.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the cost of freight in these islands is probably the greatest single factor making it difficult to expand industry, agriculture and forestry there? Would he not consult the Highlands Development Board to get their agreement, not just to give them information, before he makes increases of this sort?

The right hon. Gentleman will be the first to appreciate that the Secretary of State has statutory obligations in this respect which he can share with no one else. It is laid on me by statute. I shall certainly try to do a little better in our 13 years of continuous office than did right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, who managed to have 12 increases in 13 years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied that the Hospital Plan takes adequate account of the needs of the Highland area; and what advice he has had from the regional hospital boards concerned.

Yes, Sir; though we are not able to do all we should like. The regional hospital boards were fully consulted during the review of the Hospital Plan and all their proposals were carefully considered.

Does not the hon. Lady realise that her right hon. Friend very kindly sent me a letter today giving me the information required in part of the Question? Does she not realise that it made it very clear that the regional hospital board would have liked this to continue but that the money which the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends promised to increase has not been available?

The right hon. Gentleman is walking into something here. Let us be quite clear that this hospital will be begun soon after 1971. I remind him that it did not appear in the 1964 review covering the years up to 1969–70 for which he was responsible. He should look back on his own party's long years of non-achievement. The total spent on Scottish hospital building in 1954–64 was just over £33 million. We are proposing to spend £60 million in the next five years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is aware that there are passages in the National Plan which envisage a decline in the Scottish inshore fishing industry; and what is Government policy on this matter.

The National Plan predicts a continued saving of manpower in the fishing industry; and there is a likelihood of some decline in Scottish while fish production from the very high figures which have in the last two years resulted from abnormally favourable natural conditions. But Government policy is to maintain the catching power of the fleet, including the Scottish inshore fishing fleet, and to improve its efficiency by assisting further modernisation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these statements causes dismay in the north of Scotland and that the National Plan says that the industry will have great difficulty holding its own when it could be one of the great expansive industries of the North?

We must, first, get the measure of modernisation that is required in relation to modern catching methods. We must keep the Scottish fleet up to date. That, in itself, may lead to the employment of fewer men, but to keep the fleet's catching power up will be our objective at the start. If there is a possibility of expansion we will go on with that, and it may well be that we may have some news affecting the Highlands and Islands before this week is out.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what efforts are being made to obtain further information about the lobster and crab stocks around Orkney and Shetland.

My Department makes regular measurements of samples of the commercial catch in both Orkney and Shetland and collects data on the catch in relation to fishing effort. From this information estimates of the composition of the lobster stocks are kept up to date. A new shell fish research vessel will be commissioned later this year and one of her first tasks will be the resumption of direct sampling of the lobster stocks on the fishing grounds in the area and its extension to the crab stocks.

Can the Minister say whether, in the view of the Scottish Office, these stocks are rising or falling?

We have no evidence to show that the stocks are falling. We think that the catch has probably been smaller because boats have transferred to white fishing.