asked the Minister of Transport whether she has come to a decision about making safety belts compulsory equipment on the front seats of all new motor cars.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps she is taking to encourage the installation and use of seat belts in private motor cars.

I intend soon to circulate to interested organisations proposals for regulations which would make the fitting of seat belts compulsory on the front seats of new motor cars and light vans. In the meantime I am about to make regulations which will require these vehicles to be fitted with anchorage points for seat belts.

I am continually using all forms of publicity, including Press and television, to encourage the fitting and use of seat belts.

Will the right hon. Lady consider further important publicity about the vital need of having seat belts and also wearing them? I understand that only 15 per cent. of cars are so fitted and that only half the drivers of these cars wear them regularly.

I take every opportunity, in my own speeches, through Press publicity generally and particularly through the television, to publicise this. We have public service films which are shown as fillers on television. The present film has been shown about 450 times in the past two years. We are doing our best.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will take action to ensure that, where a vehicle has been written off by an insurance company and the owner paid, the insurers should be compelled to surrender the registration book to the appropriate taxation authority and the vehicle cut up, in order to stop the current practice of rebuilding such cars.

For the reasons given to my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. Kelley) on 26th April, this would not be justified. It would also conflict with fiscal requirements.

I did not agree with that reply to the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend. It seems most unreasonable that people should be allowed to buy cars which have been patched up in this way and without a certificate to show they are roadworthy. If the hon. Gentleman is to allow such sales, will he ensure that a certificate must be produced to show that the cars have been tested and are roadworthy?

A vehicle has to be roadworthy and an offence is committed if it is not, but very few cases of this kind have been brought to our attention.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will seek power to require manufacturers to fit devices to control car exhaust fumes emission.

It is already unlawful for a motor vehicle to discharge excessive smoke or vapour. Existing powers would enable my right hon. Friend to strengthen the regulations on this if current studies show that further control is necessary.

In view of the health hazards from a concentration of carbon monoxide and sulphur dioxide in the exhaust fumes, and as our manufacturers will increasingly have to fit anti-pollution devices to cars for export to countries which recognise these health dangers, will my right hon. Friend use her power to make sure that these devices are fitted to all future models?

I can assure my hon. Friend that British manufacturers, with the encouragement of the Ministry, are actively and urgently investigating means of reducing pollution from vehicle emissions and are ensuring that all the appropriate steps are taken to deal with any health hazards.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that next Monday is the tenth anniversary of the passing of the Clean Air Act and that all the beneficial effects of the Statute have been offset by the increasing concentration of carbon monoxide in the atmosphere from the exhausts of motor vehicles?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be well aware—I know his interest in the Clean Air Act and I had a little to do with it when I was at the Ministry of Power—that the Council of Europe sub-committee on air pollution has suggested that there should be more research before further steps are taken.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will publish the figures for the Greater London Council area of primary school children killed or injured as a result of road accidents while travelling to and from school.

The number killed or injured travelling to and from school is not known. Last year in the Metropolitan Police District 40 children between 5 and 12 years were killed and nearly 6,000 injured.

Is my hon Friend aware that those figures will be received with dismay in the London area? Will his Ministry undertake to consider the procedures involved in the appointment of school crossing patrol attendants and the resiting of pedestrian crossings where much frustration and delay are now occurring?

I agree that these are serious figures and I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will set up an independent committee of inquiry to investigate standards of car safety, on the lines of the United States Senate sub-committee currently investigating the subject in the United States of America.

No, Sir. One of the committees of the existing National Road Safety Advisory Council is specifically concerned with safety in vehicle design and use.

Is my hon. Friend completely satisfied with current safety standards in British cars? Can he say whether the Committee which has been referred to has power, as an ad hoc Select Committee of this House would have power, to send for persons and papers and to cross-examine the motor manufacturers, as can be done by the Senate sub-committee in the United States? Is the Minister aware that the Senate sub-committee has done so and has revealed some startling defects in American cars?

I am sure that my hon. Friend would not wish to duplicate existing committees, because the National Road Safety Advisory Council was set up as recently as 3rd March, 1965. We have our Regulations on the Construction and Use of Vehicles and the Lighting of Vehicles. These are constantly being reviewed.

Is the Minister aware that motor manufacturers are co-operating very closely with the Ministry over this question of safety and are fully prepared to do so in the future? Furthermore, is he aware that they are members of the Committee which has been referred to?

Yes.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the progress made—there has very little—in car design? Is he aware that this is especially so in the case of commercial vehicles, the drivers of which have very little protection to prevent their loads coming on top of them? Is he aware that there has been many deaths arising from such circumstances?

I will certainly bear the remarks of my hon. Friend in mind.

Has the Minister considered publishing statistics of accidents, giving some indication of the type of vehicle involved and whether safety belts were fitted and being used?

A large number of statistics are being published, but that is a different question and I will certainly look at it.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will state for the year ended 31st March, 1966, in respect of development districts in the North-East the number of applications for grants for which her Department is responsible for the improvement of basic services under section 7 of the Local Employment Act 1960, and the number and cost of those approved, rejected and under consideration, respectively.

Three such applications were submitted, involving an estimated total works cost of £322,100. They were still under consideration at the end of the financial year but one, involving an estimated works cost of £20,000, has since been approved.

May I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and ask whether he is aware of the contribution that his Department could make to the continuing economic progress of the North-East? Will he keep this matter under review in the future?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Transport what arrangements she proposes to make to give the residents of Havering Gardens Estate, Ilford, access to the main bus route that passes their doors, to save mothers with young children the 20-minute walk necessitated by the present layout imposed upon the developers by the planning authority at her behest.

The London Borough of Redbridge, at my right hon. Friend's request, is examining the possibility of providing more convenient pedestrian access between the estate and Eastern Avenue via Somerville Road and Havering Gardens.

Is the Minister aware that this will not quite serve the purpose? Does he realise that what is happening and will continue to happen is that mothers and children are climbing over and through the so-called unclimbable fences, and that this is very bad for morale generally? Does she not agree that it would be far better to have a gate, with a lock, through which people could pass and be allowed to do what they are going to do anyway?

We think that the provision of proper footpaths could provide quicker access and would solve the problem, but the hon. Gentleman may be right. If it proves not to be so, we shall have to consider other solutions.

asked the Minister of Transport what has been the increase in traffic to Harwich over the last five years; and how much she estimates this traffic is likely to expand over the next five years.

This information is not available but the expected national growth rate is about 30 per cent.

Is the Minister aware that I consider this to be an underestimate? Is he further aware that Harwich is becoming one of the major exporting ports of the country? Will he do everything he can to see that the road is improved as quickly as possible?

This is a very carefully calculated figure and we have no reason to suppose that East Anglia is different in this respect. We will certainly keep a watch on the situation. The problems of East Anglia are constantly being drawn to our attention and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that they will be carefully considered.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will state her policy concerning the Geddes Report on road goods vehicles licensing, notably C licences.

I am taking the Geddes Committee's Report into account in formulating my proposals for an integrated transport policy.

Can the right hon. Lady assure the House that she will not allow this White Paper upon every form of transport, about which she is in generic terms now pronouncing, to sublimate the admirable Geddes Report, with all of its constructive recommendations about private enterprise transport?

The Geddes Report contains some valuable information—

And recommendations.

—but unfortunately its terms of reference were too limited.

Will the right hon. Lady give an assurance that in her new system of transport she will make it no more difficult for coastal shipping to operate?

Yes. I think that I can safely give the hon. Lady that assurance.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will give particulars of the structure and purpose of the proposed National Freight Authority.

My purpose is to create a first-rate, expanding freight service, based on the integration of traffic by road and rail in the public sector, which will help to make full use of our railway services. I will explain my proposals in more detail in the forthcoming White Paper on transport policy.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that it is very tantalising to have this important announcement made some time ago and then have to wait months to find out what she has in mind? Would what she proposes involve legislation? If so, is there any chance of having that legislation this Session?

As my right hon. Friend knows, we are committed—this was in our election manifesto—to amending the Transport Act, 1962, but whether that can be managed this Session is, I should have thought, extremely unlikely.

Would the Minister confirm that it will not be a case of British Railways offering lower rates when working in conjunction with the transport holding company than when they are working in conjunction with private hauliers?

The hon. Gentleman had better wait for the White Paper.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the alarming number of goods sidings, depôts and marshalling yards being closed down under the authority of the 1962 Act? Will she ensure that British Railways do not close down too many, so that when traffic increases they will be able to handle it?

It is true that the British Railways Board is currently carrying out some rationalisation of its freight services. Some of these will be necessary, even with the setting up of the National Freight Authority, but I am already discussing the details of my proposals with the Railways Board and the other transport undertakings involved. The Railways Board is aware of the implications of my policy, and I am sure that it will bear them in mind.

Has the right hon. Lady any idea how many more officials will be required and how much the Authority will cost? Is this just another attempt to frustrate private enterprise and to control everything from the centre?

The hon. Gentleman is asking for details which are clearly only appropriate to the White Paper.

asked the Minister of Transport, if she will make a statement on the progress made towards an integrated transport service.

Good progress has been made with a reassessment of the rôle of the railways in national transport policy, with plans for a National Freight Authority, and with studies of the ways in which public passenger transport can be improved. The Chairmen of the Regional Economic Planning Councils are, at my request, urgently examining the transport needs of their regions and conducting pilot studies into particular problems of integration. The Transport Co-ordinating Council for London, which I recently set up, is already tackling specific problems. I shall set out further details of my proposals in the forthcoming White Paper.

If this matter is of extreme urgency, as my right hon. Friend would agree it is, for exports and increased productivity, would she explain why there is no mention of it in the Queen's Speech? Can she give an undertaking that she will produce the White Paper before the Summer Recess?

I expect that the reason it was not in the Queen's Speech is that if we were to put in it everything going on in every Government Department we would need a book, not a speech. The fact that it was not mentioned does not mean that work is not being urgently pursued on all these matters; it is. The House will realise that, with fundamental information of this nature, it is necessary for all kinds of consultations to take place in preparing the details of the policy. I hope to bring the White Paper before the House this summer.

asked the Minister of Transport what were the factors which led her to extend the experimental 70 miles per hour speed limit for a further two months.

These were given in a Press notice dated 6th April, a copy of which is available in the Library. Broadly, the preliminary findings of the Road Research Laboratory showed that there was a significant reduction of accidents on rural main roads other than motorways and that a more extended trial was desirable on motorways.

Will the right hon. Lady bear in mind that several county police chiefs have stated that, in their opinion, the temporary limit of 70 m.p.h. is restrictive for motor vehicles on motorways? Will she give deep thought to removing the limit on the motorways, whatever else she decides after 12th June?

I am not prepared to give any undertaking before the end of the experiment. I shall make a statement to the House about the results of the experiment next month.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that statistics show that the imposition of the 70 m.p.h. limit has reduced accidents, thereby reducing also unhappiness and grief? May we have an assurance that she will not give in to pressures to remove the limit until the exercise has been thoroughly carried out?

I give an undertaking that I will be guided by the evidence.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of traffic jams at holiday and other times, steps are being taken to enlarge the roundabout outside Hampton Court.

The Greater London Council as the highway authority has no present plans for enlarging the roundabout.

Will the hon. Gentleman draw the attention of the G.L.C. to the fact that this road is becoming a most important entry into London and that Hampton Court itself is congested? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, at times, especially between 8 a.m. and 9 a.m., the road from Hampton Court to Kingston Bridge is becoming dangerous?

The G.L.C. is both the highway and the traffic authority. It reports that, for normal traffic conditions, the roundabout is adequate. The greatest problem concerns pedestrians. The ideal would be pedestrian segregation but the cost of doing that would be very substantial.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of the fact that no airport will be built near Plymouth in the immediate future, she will restore the cuts in expenditure on the A38.

Programmed improvements of the A38 in Devon will be carried out in full. Three of the eight schemes originally deferred have now started and we hope work on the remaining five will start in a few months' time.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. I hope that he will see that this road is put into very good condition, especially in view of the unfortunate Budget which will deprive the West Country of many of the tourists who would otherwise use the road.

Will the hon. Gentleman also bear in mind that now that the air link between the West Country and London Airport has been closed, with the ending of the only airline operating the route, it is even more vital that there should be a restoration of the cuts in the rebuilding of the A38?

I thought that I made it clear that the programmed improvements would be carried out in full.

asked the Minister of Transport when she will announce the part of the route of the M11 motorway leading southwards from the North Circular Road, A406, and of the various associated road schemes, such as the Eastern Avenue extension, that will be necessary in the South Woodford and Wanstead areas.

asked the Minister of Transport when she expects to decide the route of the M11; and whether she will give an assurance that she will not do so without giving further opportunity for local authorities and others concerned to make representations.

My right hon. Friend hopes to publish a draft scheme for the route north of A406 this summer. There will then be the usual opportunity for objections and representations to be made and considered before a final decision is taken.

Proposals for the future road pattern south of the North Circular will depend on the results of a detailed survey in North-East London now in progress.

When does the hon. Gentleman expect to receive the results of that survey? There are many traffic schemes now being held up until the survey has been completed and the delay is causing great uncertainty and some hardship in the area.

There will be no holdup in the publication of the draft line. What we have been doing is consulting the local authorities. Those consultations are now virtually complete and very soon my right hon. Friend will be announcing the draft line. We are awaiting a consultant's report about the situation further south, and that may take a bit longer.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will state her policy concerning the future of the temporary 70 miles per hour limit on motorways.

This is not yet possible. I shall be making an announcement towards the end of May.

Will the right hon. Lady bear in mind that the last time this matter was debated was not on an affirmative Resolution from her Ministry, with the result that it was impossible for the House to express an opinion by a vote on this very important matter? Will she next time lay an Order so that we can all vote on this contentious matter?

If I wanted to extend the experiment still further after 15th June, I would have to lay an Order and it would be possible for the House to pray against it.

asked the Minister of Transport when permission will be given to start work on the Bassett-Ower section of the south coast road with the Nursling link to Southampton Docks.

We cannot forecast a date for this scheme but it will be considered for inclusion in the future trunk road programme.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the construction of the Bassett-Ower section of the south coast road is a necessary consequence of the current construction of the Chandler's Ford-Otterbourne bypass? In default of it, there will be very serious hold-ups at the Chilworth roundabout at the end of the new bypass.

This scheme is being considered in conjunction with others, but at the moment other schemes in Hampshire are considered to be more urgent—the hon. Gentleman will know to which I refer. We will consider this scheme urgently for the next stage of the trunk road programme.

asked the Minister of Transport what proposals she has for improving the road communications between Southampton and the Midlands; and in what years her proposals will feature in the road programme.

Major improvements of the trunk roads between Southampton and Oxford costing almost £4½ million are either in hand or have recently been completed. The programme for the period 1966–67—1969–70 contains schemes costing some £3 million.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is very welcome news? He will be aware that the present extension to Southampton Docks requires, as the Rochdale Report recommended, major improvements in road communications between Southampton and the Midlands which, he will agree, will be of great benefit to the London area.

Yes, Sir. That is certainly taken into account and the hon. Gentleman can take it from me that if any new decision is taken on Southampton Docks, this programme will obviously have to be reviewed.

asked the Minister of Transport what estimates she has made of the increase in traffic between the East and West Midlands and the East Anglian ports of Ipswich and Felixstowe over the next five, 10, and 20 years, respectively; and what plans she has for improving the A45 to cope with this additional traffic over the same approximate periods.

Traffic will increase by about 30 per cent., 75 per cent. and 175 per cent. respectively. The current roads programme includes a number of improvement schemes on the A45 appropriate to the expected volume of traffic. Further improvements required in the 'seventies are being studied.

Do not those figures demonstrate that this is one of the key arteries of our future export trade? Will not the hon. Gentleman consider that what is needed is not tinkering about with particular projects, but an East Anglian east-west highway which will do the job properly?

No, Sir. We have to compare this build-up of traffic and traffic flow with the state of affairs in other roads in other parts of the country in deciding on our priorities and schemes, which the hon. Gentleman has described as tinkering, but which are quite expensive and which will make improvements to enable traffic to flow. However, we are now studying the needs of the 1970s which may provide for much more important developments.

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that where it joins my constituency at Stowmarket and Needham Market the A45 is not adequate for present traffic? I support what my hon. Friend has said.

I realise that it is not adequate and that is why improvements will certainly be made.

What plans are being made for developing rail transport for this traffic.

We want to develop rail transport to the East Anglian ports and that is why my right hon. Friend is engaged on schemes designed to attract more traffic to the railways.

asked the Minister of Transport what delays there were during the recent holiday period on motorways; and what preparations she is making in this respect for Whitsun.

asked the Minister of Transport whether in order to prevent unnecessary delays to traffic on both two and three-lane motorways resulting from carriageway maintenance and repairs, she will stipulate that a minimum of two lanes shall be provided for use in both directions whenever possible during such repairs; and if, for this purpose, she will experiment with the provision of temporary portable carriageways, as are used on German autobahns.

Delays occurred twice on the M1 over Easter.

Our agent authorities are fully conscious of the need to keep at least two lanes of each carriageway open whenever peak traffic is expected, but circumstances which could not be foreseen prevented the reopening of the centre lanes in time for Easter week-end.

The use of temporary portable carriageways cannot be justified on dual three-lane carriageways but we will consider their use in future if prolonged congestion on a dual two-lane road seems likely.

Will the Minister make arrangements in advance of Whitsun? When it is obvious that the full width of the motorway is not going to be open, could not a reasonable diversion be arranged and clearly signposted well in advance so that motorists would not have to queue for about 10 miles when there is a blockage on the motorway?

We certainly will consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion but I should say that we have now issued instructions that two lanes are to be kept open. A blockage occurred over Easter owing to the breakdown of an asphalt mixing plant and I trust it will not occur again. We have asked the agent authorities to ensure that two lanes should always be kept open.

Is not the moral of this that more people should travel by rail?

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will make a statement of the proposed works on the A604 between Colchester and Harwich, including the bypass of Dovercourt.

Four future schemes which Essex County Council, the highway authority, have in mind are the Poplar Hall diversion, Wix bypass, an improve- ment between Poplar Hall and Wix and the Elmstead Market bypass. Grant has been issued for the Poplar Hall diversion, but the remaining schemes have not yet been programmed. A diversion at Clingoe Hall has been programmed. The county council has yet made no formal proposals for a bypass of Dovercourt.

In view of the lack of urgency on the part of the Government on this matter, will the Minister see a deputation consisting of the Chairman of the Eastern Region of British Railways and the heads of the private port of Harwich and myself to discuss this question?

There is no lack of urgency. As I have said, several schemes are now in hand. We are awaiting proposals on others and we realise that they are very important. My right hon. Friend is prepared to consider representations from hon. Members at any time, but a fairly considerable programme of road improvements in East Anglia is now going forward.

Would not the Minister accept that in her rolling programme the amount of money being made available for East Anglia, per head of population, is one of the lowest amounts in the country—and this against the background of an area where there is oil and gas nearby in the North Sea, the prospects of trade with the Common Market, and a great population increase?

The density population is only one of the factors which we have to take into account. We have to assess existing traffic volumes, prospects for future economic development and other factors. These are the factors which we are now analysing in relation to East Anglia. The priorities there are based on that assessment.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps she will take to ensure that no unnecessary delay arises in providing a safe crossing over the A41 at Carlett Park College as a result of recent disagreements between the Cheshire County and Bebington Borough authorities over the form such a crossing should take.

My right hon. Friend proposes to provide a footbridge here. This is agreed by the Bebington Borough Council. I understand that the Further Education Sub-Committee of the county council is meeting on 10th May to consider a recommendation that the county council should also agree to a footbridge and make a contribution. We hope then to get ahead quickly. Design work is proceeding in the meantime.

May I thank my hon. Friend for that assurance, which I am sure will be very welcome to the hundreds of students who daily risk life and limb trying to get to this college? Does not my hon. Friend agree that this case illustrates the need for a fresh look at the whole machinery for taking urgent action on necessary road safety measures?

So far as my right hon. Friend's Ministry is concerned, the record will show that we have taken very urgent action indeed. We had a very full debate on this on the last day of the last Parliament.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will now make a statement on her plans for the south orbital road.

My right hon. Friend hopes to make a statement soon.

Is the Minister aware that there is strong local criticism of the delay in reaching decisions about the westward projection of the south orbital road from Pebble Hill, which is holding up important decisions on the realignment of the A25?

The hon. Gentleman will know that several important decisions have been made and announced. This is a very complex subject and, as he knows very well, the territory is not easy to traverse. We have been considering this very carefully and a statement will be made very soon indeed.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will give an assurance that she will give full consideration to the views of local authorities in deciding the road needs of their areas.

Yes, Sir.

Will the hon. Gentleman resist any last-minute attempts to interfere with the development of the Croydon east-west flyover which is very necessary to Croydon and which was agreed between the Croydon authority and the Government Departments two years ago?

Of course, we do not interfere with those matters which are properly within the sphere of local highway authorities. The decisions are for them after consultation with us, and the Minister takes that fully into account.

Does the Minister's reply mean that he will now take into consideration the views of the Winchester City Council on the Bar End crossing?

We are already doing so.

Mr. Speaker—

Order. The hon. Gentleman must not wave his Order Paper at the Chair.

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. While appreciating the Minister's reply, may I ask him whether he will take into consideration the fact that many of these traffic schemes will create yet further traffic difficulties in other parts of the same town? Is my hon. Friend aware of the deep concern felt by many Croydon people over the proposed east-west flyover?

Yes, Sir. We know that there are objections. There has been an inquiry and these matters have been considered. My right hon. Friend is always prepared to consider the views of bodies of citizens, as of the local highway authorities. The decisions have to be taken by my right hon. Friend in conjunction with the local highway authority.

asked the Minister of Transport upon what basis she assesses the relative urgency of proposed new bypasses; and how the order of priority for constructing them is arrived at.

Priorities are based on relative levels of congestion, accidents, volume and character of traffic and the cost of improvement in relation to benefit.

What special weight is given to special factors such as holiday traffic? Would not the Minister agree that in such a place as Newmarket, which becomes intolerably clogged up for miles on either side at weekends in summer, there is a very urgent need for a bypass there? What weight is given to such factors?

All traffic is taken into account. The volume all round the year is assessed. I think I know what lies behind the hon. Gentleman's Question. We are considering very seriously the case for a bypass at Newmarket, but he will appreciate that it is a very expensive scheme, and we have to be very sure about the benefits of it by comparison with certain other schemes which have been programmed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the East Anglian Regional Economic Development Council is already considering the question of the roads, but can we have an assurance that the Minister will, nevertheless, take action which may become necessary before bodies of that sort can report?

My right hon. Friend has asked regional planning councils to consider the road priorities of their regions and to report to her, and they will be reporting shortly, and the hon. Gentleman can rest assured that she will take into account fully the views of the priorities which they put forward.

asked the Minister of Transport if she is satisfied with the existing procedure whereby members of the public can make representations on proposed alterations in the rail fares and other charges imposed by British Railways; and if she will make a statement.

The existing procedure is determined by the Transport Act 1962. I am considering how that Act should be amended and, among other things, I shall be reviewing its provisions on railway fares and charges.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that British Railways in Scotland have imposed a 5s. charge on Glasgow folk whose only sin is that they have to take their holidays in Glasgow Fair Fortnight? What redress do people have against charges which appear to be unfair?

The Transport Act, 1962, introduced by the Conservative Government, removed from the Transport Users' Consultative Committees the right to make representations about railway charges and fares. That is why I am looking at the situation.

asked the Minister of Transport what discussions she and her predecessor have had with the transport unions about the admission of private road hauliers to liner train depôts; and what progress has been made.

asked the Minister of Transport what results have been achieved in her negotiations with the trade unions concerned to allow private road haulage firms to use liner train depôts.

Negotiation on the liner train issue is primarily a matter for the Railways Board and the unions: but I have made it clear to both sides, as my predecessor did, that I hope there will be a decision in favour of "open" terminals, so that nothing will stand in the way of progress with this important new railway technique.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that this is just what she said on 9th February and what her predecessor, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Tom Fraser), said six months ago? How long are she and the Railways Board going to live in hope? What will she do if the N.U.R. refuses to give up this crude and irresponsible restrictive practice?

I have entered into very happy relations with the railway and other transport unions in working out my new transport policy and I do not intend to add anything to my reply at this stage.

I appreciate very much the difficulty and what the right hon. Lady has said. But what is the point of the Prime Minister making splendid speeches in the country when the Government apparently are afraid or reluctant to face a really unjustifiable restrictive practice of this kind and, indeed, are afraid to face the whole issue of restrictive practices by the unions?

I am not afraid of this issue and I am confident that, in the new relations I am establishing with the unions, we shall be able to get a happy outcome of the problem.

Does not the right hon. Lady agree that six months is a very long time for this restrictive practice to have continued without a settlement? Is the investment programme in liner trains being delayed until this matter is settled?

As my predecessor told the House in April, 1965, he was authorising capital expenditure by the Railways Board to go ahead on this.

Would it not help towards securing the agreement that the right hon. Lady is aiming at if the negotiation were not sabotaged by the kind of irresponsible talk about unions indulged in by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor)?

Yes, Sir. I entirely agree that some of the attacks on the unions do not help the sort of work we are trying to do.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that liner trains are operating and that the attacks upon the N.U.R. are completely unjustifiable?

Liner trains are operating but not as fully as I would like, because it is my firm intention to get more freight and more traffic on the railways. I would like advantage to be taken of this opportunity.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport how many liner trains are running daily between London and Glasgow and between Glasgow and London; and what percentage of its capacity load each train is carrying.

This service has one train in each direction nightly. The Railways Board tells me that in the week ended 23rd April the number of loaded containers carried represented about 66 per cent. of the available capacity.

Can the hon. Gentleman give any indication of what the restrictions on the liner trains are costing British Railways? Can he confirm the report that British Railways could draw about £4,000 a day more if the trains were running to capacity?

I cannot give the figures without notice. All I can say is that there has been a substantial increase in the traffic attracted to the liner trains. There was 30 per cent. use at the beginning of February, and now the figure is about 66 per cent. They are proving very attractive indeed.

Will the hon. Gentleman not agree, though, that even though there is 66 per cent. use of liner trains, those trains were banned from use and that but for that there could have been 100 per cent. use the whole time, if it had not been for the action of the railwaymen's union?

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that this is a new service. It is proving attractive, and my Minister has answered Questions on this issue earlier in the day.

asked the Minister of Transport what steps she has taken, in pursuance of the recommendation contained in paragraph 83(i) of the Eighth Report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes, to determine and make public a realistic annual target for the reduction and eventual elimination of the railways' working deficit.

My right hon. Friend proposes to establish realistic financial targets for the Railways Board, but this implies a change in the terms of reference given to the Board by the Transport Act, 1962. She will be dealing with this matter in detail in her forthcoming White Paper on Transport Policy.

Does the Joint Parliamentary Secretary recognise that clear financial objectives are essential to good management? When can we expect this statement? How long will British Railways be without a proper objective?

Of course, I accept that there should be clear financial objectives, but I also accept that there must be realistic financial objectives. Everyone now recognises that the Tory Transport Act of 1962 was completely unworkable, and that is what we intend to amend.

Will my hon. Friend also bear in mind the important aspect of social responsibility and will he assure the House that it will be taken fully into account?

Yes. Social responsibilities are very important and one of them is for commuter services, as the hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Patrick Jenkin) should know, because these services cost a great deal of money, but it is very important to maintain them.

asked the Minister of Transport what application for sanction of capital expenditure she has received for constructing an underground line between the Gloucester Road air terminal and London Airport.

None, Sir. But the London Transport Board is discussing with the Department and with other interested authorities the possibility of extending the Piccadilly line to London Airport.

What would be the purpose of that? Anybody who wanted to come via the Piccadilly line from London Airport into the centre of London would have to take a stopping train. It would be a much longer journey than by bus. Does he really think that at the beginning of the 1970s, when 490-seat jets will be arriving at London Airport and the traffic will have doubled beyond what it is at present, buses are the most suitable means of getting passengers to the centre of London?

There are several proposals which we have to consider. All of them involve very substantial expenditure. There has been very substantial expenditure on the M4 in order to try to speed up transit to London Airport. We are not excluding any proposals. We are considering this proposal together with other proposals, including a monorail, for overground speed of transit and shall arrive at decisions shortly.

Will the hon. Gentleman make sure that the Minister of Aviation and other members of the Cabinet are made aware that, if we have to buy 490-seat American jet transport aircraft for civil purposes, it is not just the cost of the aircraft but the cost of alterations to the international airports of this country and, above all, to the road and rail services to these international airfields which should be taken into account as well as the customers' choice?

Of course, this is a mattter which we will take into account.

Will my hon. Friend give very careful attention to the advantages of a rail connection and perhaps study the experience of Brussels in this regard?

We are interested in the experience of other countries. As I say, there are these alternative proposals which have varying merits. It is not at all an easy matter to make a choice between them.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will now announce her decision on the Port-bury dock scheme.

asked the Minister of Transport when she will make a statement on the future organisation and development of docks facilities in the Bristol Channel.

asked the Minister of Transport when she will make her decision on the Portbury docks scheme.

asked the Minister of Transport when a decision on the future of the Cardiff and South Wales docks will be announced.

asked the Minister of Tranport when she will announce her decision regarding major port improvements in the Bristol Channel.

The Government have decided that, before they reach a final decision, they require short comparative studies of the possible alternative schemes. These will be completed as quickly as possible.

The hon. Gentleman has said that before. Is he aware that every responsible body in the west of England strongly favours this great and imaginative scheme, which has international possibilities and great national significance? Will he get on with the job and make a decision soon?

There is no doubt that the scheme recommended by the National Ports Council is greatly imaginative but since then a number of alternative proposals for large-scale capital investment, which would involve the destinies of considerable numbers of people, have been put to us. It is right and proper that these proposals should be examined, and they will be very quickly.

What thought is being given to the economic effects of possible innovations bypassing the existing—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Reading."]—unpretentious facilities of South Wales ports?

These matters have to be assessed. We have to take into account the position of South Wales ports, where, in any case, very considerable capital investment amounting to £30 million will be made in the next five years. Proposals have been made on behalf of the South Wales ports and are being studied.

Order. I would point to new hon. Members that hon. Members must not read their supplementary questions.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one of the disadvantages in not announcing a decision on the scheme is that a number of my constituents living and working in the area are considerably anxious about their future? Is not this another reason for advancing the decision?

We realise that a number of people in different ports are anxious about their future and desirous of having the large-scale capital investment involved in this scheme. That is what makes it so important that we should arrive at the right decision.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the development of the South Wales ports together would be cheaper than the Portbury scheme and that these ports are vital to the economy of South Wales?

The House now sees how these assertions and counter-assertions are made on behalf of different ports and authorities. The Government are at present making the economic and technical assessments on which they will report to the House shortly.

When was the decision taken to carry out the examination of alternative schemes? How many schemes are being looked into? How long will it go on?

Several alternative schemes from South Wales, Southampton and other places are being investigated. It was decided to examine these schemes at quite an early date after we had had the recommendation from the National Ports Council in favour of the Portbury scheme. The investigations will be completed in a few months' time.

Is it not a fact that an announcement would have been made towards the end of January or the beginning of February giving consent to the Portbury scheme had it not been for the stimulation of the South Wales ports by the Conservative Members for Bristol?

We should be careful not to turn this discussion into the kicking around of a political football. One of the unfortunate aspects of the controversy is that it has become highly politically charged. One of the things we are anxious to do is to make an objective assessment of the economic and technical factors so as to arrive at the right decision.

On a point of order. Is not my hon. Friend aware that it is a fact that he did say—

Order. That is not a point of order and the hon. Gentleman is aware of it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that permission has been given to develop British Transport Docks Board ports in the Bristol Channel and elsewhere? Is it the policy to give consent only to nationalised ports?

No, Sir, of course not. We are considering several schemes from non-nationalised ports in which a considerable capital investment is being made. That is not a factor in our consideration. This port is under public ownership—it happens to be under municipal ownership—but that is not the determining factor. We are considering a third liner terminal and considerable capital investment and we want to be sure that we get value for money.