asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will recommend to the Welsh Economic Council that the Clayton Survey on transport conditions in West Cardiganshire should be extended so as to cover the whole of the county.

No, Sir; this would not be practicable within the limited time-scale of this survey.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that transport conditions in the eastern half of Cardiganshire are exactly as they are in the western half of Cardiganshire? There is every reason why this survey should be held for the whole county, even though that (night mean delaying it for a further short period?

Yes. This is merely a pilot study of a typical area, which would be typical not only of the rest of Cardiganshire but of other rural areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the terms of reference given by the Welsh Economic Council to Professor Clayton's study group in their proposed survey of transport conditions in West Cardiganshire; and if he will give an assurance that particular attention will be given in this study to the question of rural omnibus services in the area concerned.

I am circulating the terms of reference in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The survey will give full attention to all means of transport in the area, including rural bus services.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he pay particular attention to the Jack Report of 1961, which found that between 15,000 and 20,000 people in mid-Cardiganshire were not served by any public services at all, and to the fact that this position has been greatly worsened by the closure of rural bus services in recent months?

The whole point of the pilot survey is to enable us to use our resources in the best way to help the county. I am aware of the serious problem to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention.

Is not the Minister of State aware that there have been several surveys of bus services, and allied transport problems in rural areas, in Wales amongst other places? Is it not time that the Government acted in this matter and provided a subsidy so that the people do really have a bus service?

I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Gentleman. We are taking into account all the evidence and are determined to have as good as service as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is aware of public concern that issues of policy are being decided by an official of the Cwmbran Development Corporation without reference to the members of the board; and whether he will give a direction that no official of the corporation in his public capacity will express controversial political opinions purported to be made on behalf of the board to the constituents of the hon. Member for Pontypool.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is aware of the concern of residents of Cwmbran New Town about a decision taken by an official of the corporation refusing permission for an exhibition to be staged in the town centre; whether he will give a direction to officials of new town development corporations concerning their discretionary power; and whether he will further require officials in their public capacity to refrain from an expression of their political views to the constituents of the hon. Member for Monmouth.

This is a matter for the corporation and not one on which my right hon. Friend can issue a direction.

Does not my hon. Friend appreciate that that is a most unsatisfactory reply? The official concerned—zealous, enthusiastic and dedicated as he is to his work—has written to the politically mature constituents in my area in a way which is not only politically naïve but which they find politically offensive? It is surely the duty of the Minister to control officials so that they do not indulge in public political controversy?

I assure my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend fully appro. ciates the concern of my hon. Friend in this matter, but there is no provision under the New Towns Act whereby my right hon. Friend can issue directions concerning the duties or conduct of officials of the corporation. The corporation is responsible for the appointment of staff, including the general manager, and the conduct of officials is essentially a matter for the corporation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he proposes to take to offset the effects on the tourist industry in North Wales of the Selective Employment Tax and the withdrawal of investment allowances.

Apart from the grant to the British Travel Association, the industry will benefit from the raising of initial allowances from 10 to 30 per cent. and the building grants that will be available throughout the new development area. I hope also that it will benefit in due course from the Exchequer-aided research work being done by the Wales Tourist and Holidays Association.

Does the right hon. Gentle. man appreciate that most of the North Wales hotels are not in the Welsh development area at all, and does he realise that the effect of the withdrawal of investment allowances and Selective Employment Tax is positively to invite people in this country to take holidays abroad and to invite people abroad not to take holidays in this country?

I agree that some hotels are not in the area, but a large number are. I fully appreciate the importance of the tourist industry not only in North Wales but in mid-Wales and a large part of South Wales as well. It is too soon yet to judge the precise effect of this tax on particular industries and in particular areas.

The right hon Gentleman may think that it is too early, but is it not clear from the evidence already coming from these areas that the burden of the Selective Employment Tax is being heavily felt by all parts of the tourist industry? Does not he understand how much it is resented?

The burden of this proposed tax cannot possibly be felt yet. The hon. Gentleman must realise that tourism is helped in other ways. We shall be watching carefully to see what transpires during the next few months.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what new proposals he has for encouraging the Welsh tourist industry; and if he will make a statement.

The Wales Tourist and Holidays Association is engaged on a research programme into the facilities now available and the future of the industry. A progress report is expected shortly.

Will the Secretary of State treat this as a matter of urgency? Is he aware that the Selective Employment Tax and the withdrawal of investment allowances could have a deplorable effect on many parts of Wales which are more than generally dependent on tourists?

I do not take the dismal view which the hon. Gentleman takes, but I am aware of the importance of the work which the research unit is doing. It started its work in April, 1965, and is engaged on a three-year programme. We shall await the outcome with great interest.

We fully recognise that the Secretary of State has not long held his office, but will he appreciate that there are many people concerned about the future of the tourist industry? We hope that we shall not have to wait three years for some efforts from him.

We are aware of the importance of the tourist industry to the Principality. What I said was that the research unit is engaged on work which would take three years. It will be producing progress reports, and I am now awaiting such a progress report. I am anxious also to meet the officials of the Tourist Board to see what, if anything, can be done in the meantime.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many panels have been set up by the Welsh Economic Council; how many have reported; and what action has resulted.

Five, all of which have submitted at least interim reports to the Council. The Council, in turn. has advised the Government.

Will my hon. Friend consider publishing these reports in full, or, if not, could he publish the main conclusions?

It is not the present intention to publish these reports. They are given to the Council, which is an advisory body and which in turn advises the Minister. I undertake to look at the suggestion which my hon. Friend made in the latter part of his supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the way in which he exercises his general powers of oversight in Wales in cases where he has no direct responsibility.

I do this through my membership of the Cabinet, the monthly conferences of heads of Government Departments in Wales, the machinery of the Welsh Planning Board and day-to-day consultations with all Departments on particular issues.

But is my right hon. Friend completely satisfied that in matters affecting the well-being of the Welsh people he has an effective voice in policy decisions, notably in respect of the Board of Trade?

Yes, Sir. As in all forms of consultation and co-operation of a rather informal character, everything depends on how well one uses them. I have arranged for my hon. Friend the Minister of State to take a direct interest in the exercise of all these oversight functions, including liaison with the Board of Trade, which is of vital importance at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to publish the White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation in Wales.

I hope to publish this White Paper before the end of the year.

Does my right hon. Friend feel that he can still carry out the radical reorganisation of local government in Wales before the Royal Commission on Local Government for the rest of the country has conducted its investigation, as the Royal Commission might, perhaps, make recommendations on new functions or the financing of local government which affected boundary changes in Wales?

I have taken the same view on this as previous Administrations. My hon. Friend will remember that there was a separate Local Government Commission for Wales and, when the then Minister of Housing and Local Government decided that he would not accept the Commission's Report, he told the House on 26th February, 1964, that he would put forward in a White Paper his own proposals for Wales. In view of all the work which has been done since then and the urgency of the situation in Wales, it would be wrong to stop the work of the working party until the Royal Commission has reported.

As the problems of local government in England and Scotland have merited the detailed attention of Royal Commissions, how is it possible in Wales to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion without such an investigation?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman attaches undue weight to what a Royal Commission can do. A good deal of work has been done by Local Government Boundary Commissions composed of very eminent Welshmen, and the working party has been studying this for a very long time. What I am saying is that, in view of the work which has been done and the volume of information amassed, I should proceed with the publication of a White Paper before the end of this year. This I propose to do.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate has been made of redundancies expected in South Wales during the next five years; and whether he will make a statement.

Although it is subject to a wide margin of error, it has been estimated that, if the expanding industries do not grow faster than in recent years, the excess of labour supply over demand in South Wales could increase by some 30,000 by 1971. The Government are, of course, stimulating faster growth to prevent any such increase, and I am glad to say that industry is finding South Wales an attractive location.

Is the Minister fully satisfied that the programme to encourage industry in South Wales will be sufficient to meet the needs of this very large number of redundant men who will come out in the next five years?

I certainly hope so. The Government are going all out to ensure that the gifts of the Welsh people are fully used and that full employment is the lot of our people.

We shall, of course, welcome faster growth and productivity in Wales, and we shall welcome it when we see it in South Wales. Why is it possible for the Minister to give these figures today when it was totally impossible in the National Plan to give figures regarding Welsh redundancies?

I have given figures which have been reached by the Employment and Industry Panel. They are the mean of its estimates. I have tried to help the House by giving a clear picture. I am confident that we shall see substantial growth in South Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further communications he has had from Richard Thomas and Baldwin in connection with the siting of the second iron ore terminal in South Wales.

My right hon. Friend has received from Richard Thomas and Baldwin copies of the documents submitted to the National Ports Council in support of its proposals for an impounded basin at Uskmouth.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he intends to seek further consultations with the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association to make plans for alleviating rural depopulation.

My department is in close and frequent touch with the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association on all aspects of the problems of this area.

Has the Secretary of State already received from the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association any reaction to the Selective Employment Tax, and, if so, will he tell us what it has said about this brutal, blunt instrument of taxation?

I have received no such report. I shall not refer today to the many brutal and blunt actions taken by the hon. Gentleman's own Government during their 13 years.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, according to my information, the greatest present need in mid-Wales appears to be the need for further housing? Is he in close touch with the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association in order to have its views and help in this direction?

Yes, Sir. I think that there will be developments over the next few months in this direction.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of opposition by residents at Whitchurch, near Cardiff, to a proposal by British Railways to establish a coal depot near College Road, Whitchurch, alongside a residential area mostly developed during the last 15 years, he will use his powers to protect the interests of the local residents.

The proposal, so far as it required planning approval, was a matter for the local planning authority. My right hon. Friend sees no grounds for intervening.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that recently a business man was refused permission to have an office in his house because it would destroy the amenities of the area, yet at the same time British Railways are creating a coal depot on the very doorsteps of these houses? Is not this an absurdity, and will he make representations to British Railways to protect the amenities of these people?

My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the Railways Board, which is the responsible body in this case, together with the local authorities concerned, will see to it that the depot is run with proper regard to the amenities of the people living in the area.

In view of the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what initiative he is taking to promote schemes calculated to identify the sources of future delinquency and to change antisocial attitudes in children in secondary schools.

The Schools Council has a great deal of work in hand in connection with the raising of the school-leaving age which will contribute to these objectives. In addition I am contributing to five research projects designed, among other things, to shed light on these problems. The total cost of these projects is about £200,000.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply and urge him to pursue this in the light of the certain fact that the root and heart of the problem of crime in modern society lies in his Department and not in that of the Home Secretary.

Does not my right hon. Friend think that a change in antisocial attitudes might be furthered by the introduction of carefully planned programmes on the television rather than all the sex and violence programmes to which teen-agers are subjected?

I believe that we do not know nearly enough for certain about exactly what the causes of these antisocial attitudes are. It is only a minority of the children who have them, but we are all disturbed and puzzled about the causes. The best thing we can do is to encourage research in all directions we can.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now announce his proposals for assistance to pre-school play groups.

My right hon. Friend has agreed to pay a grant of £3,000 a year for three years to the National Association of Pre-school Play Groups towards their headquarters expenses, including the salary of an adviser.

I welcome that information, but does the Minister of State realise that many of these groups find considerable difficulty in starting operations? If he accepts that they are fulfilling a valuable function, will he ensure that more help is available to them?

My right hon. Friend has no legal power to assist individual play groups, which do not come within the scope of the Education Acts.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in view of the grant made by his Department to the National Association of Pre-school Play Groups, he will make it a condition that the Association should make its member groups open to inspection by the officers of his Department.

My right hon. Friend has no power to make such a condition. One of Her Majesty's Inspectors is in close touch with the National Association and the purpose of the grant is to enable the Association itself to provide expert advice and guidance to its members.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the concern of the National Association of Pre-school Play Groups at the lack of guidance from his Department? Will he consider making some greater form of voluntary advice available to individual groups?

One of the purposes of the grant is to help the National Association itself to provide that advice. I am anxious to encourage pre-school play groups and will consider the point made by my hon. Friend.

The hon. Gentleman has said that the grant is £3,000. Has he any estimate as to how much that will be reduced as a result of the Selective Employment Tax?

Order. Supplementary questions must be related to the Question on the Order Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many local education authorities have informed him that they do not intend to accept the proposals of Circular 10/65 on the organisation of secondary education.

Two, Sir: Bournemouth and Westmorland.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of concern among parents in areas where the local education authorities have rejected the principle of the circular and that there is the feeling, justified or otherwise, that certain local education authorities have rejected the principle because of political spite against the Government?

I am aware of the strong feelings among parents in these areas, but what is significant is the tiny number of local education authorities which have declined to send in plans. The vast majority of the 162 authorities in England and Wales are actively engaged in preparing plans for comprehensive reorganisation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to give sympathetic consideration to all replies from local education authorities embodying proposals that are genuinely designed to extend secondary opportunity in accordance with the needs of their areas?

I shall give most sympathetic attention to any plan which comes to me and seems to be within the principle of Circular 10/65.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has for increasing the capital allocation to local education authorities developing secondary education on a comprehensive line.

None for a special capital allocation. But the very large building programmes already allocated to meet the demands of a growing school population, new housing and the raising of the school leaving age will of course indirectly assist the needs of secondary reorganisation.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a great many local education authorities looking forward to this educational advance are finding considerable difficulty because of the legacy they inherited from the period when the party opposite was in power, such as continual cuts in the school building programme and the large numbers of small secondary schools built? In reorganising the school programme, they are finding great difficulty in bringing these small secondary schools up to the level of viable comprehensive education. Is my right hon. Friend—

Order. The hon. Lady must learn to make her supplementary questions concise. There is enough to answer.

Whether it is concise or not, Mr. Speaker, I agree with the substance of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. The huge legacy of small and old secondary buildings makes reorganisation harder than it would otherwise have been. That is why local education authorities are bound to use a good deal of ingenuity in fitting reorganisation into this pattern of building, but I make it clear again that if we were to make a special capital allocation for going comprehensive, this could only be at the expense of replacing or improving slum primary schools, and that I am not prepared to accept.

The right hon. Gentleman has made it clear—and we welcome his statement—that he will give primary school improvements priority over proposals for comprehensive development when there is adequate secondary accommodation available. But can he tell the House how much has been approved by the Government for school improvements over and above the £250 million that we approved for this purpose during the 1959-64 Parliament?

Apart from providing new schools for additional numbers of children, the primary school buildings must have priority. I have also made it clear—and here the right hon. Gentleman did not agree during the election—that any new secondary school built must be consistent with possible comprehensive reorganisation schemes.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he proposes to take to ensure that there will be no reduction in work carried out under the 1966-67 major and minor building programmes owing to increased costs of construction following the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax.

My right hon. Friend expects to be able to make an announcement soon about cost limits for school building.

Does that mean the Secretary of State is considering increasing the present allocation, for the Ministry of Housing and Local Government says that one effect of the Selective Employment Tax will be to increase construction costs by about 2 per cent.?

Obviously it is the practice of the Department to review cost limits whenever circumstances make it necessary to do so. In the present situation, the S.E.T. is one of the factors we are taking into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to assist every local education authority to make provision for at least one pilot scheme for programmed learning, educational television, and language laboratories in its own area.

Almost all local education authorities are already using teaching aids of these kinds. I am anxious to encourage these developments through the Educational Foundation for Visual Aids and by other means, although it must be left to each authority to decide what particular lines it wishes to follow.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. But is it not true to say that for the expenditure of a small sum of money he could get the pool of knowledge on the use of this method much more widely scattered throughout every authority with a little more push by his Department?

We have no means by which we can directly financially assist local authorities to use these aids, but in spreading knowledge of them a lot of work is being done by the Educational Foundation for Visual Aids. The Department has put out a number of research projects to study these things and Her Majesty's Inspectors are both encouraging and watching developments in each local authority area.

If a pool of knowledge is widely scattered, does it not cease to be a pool?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science it he will amend the regulations regarding teachers' superannuation to give widows with young children the same rights as married women in relation to qualifying service for pension.

My right hon. Friend will consider this matter in preparing the teachers' superannuation regulations under the Teachers Superannuation Act, 1965.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Can he indicate when this consideration will take place?

The regulations are of complicated character and are bound to take some months to prepare, but it is hoped that they will be in force by April next.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will introduce legislation to extend the pension scheme for teachers' widows to cover widows of teachers who died before the passing of the Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1965.

No, Sir. Further retrospection would adversely affect the Teachers' Family Benefits Fund, which will be financed entirely by teachers' contributions.

Would the Minister not agree that there are some elderly teachers' widows who are suffering greatly through not being included? Does his answer tally with the Labour Party manifesto which said that they would strive to alleviate poverty among old people?

I think that the hon. Gentleman should take note of the fact that the Act introduced last year was a substantial improvement on the situation which had previously existed. Some line had to be drawn, and there are always problems when one draws lines when dealing with retrospective legislation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he now has for the expansion of nursery school facilities.

I am encouraging local education authorities to establish new nursery classes wherever they can show that this will enable more qualified married women teachers to return to service. I will study the forthcoming reports of the Central Advisory Councils of Education before reaching any wider conclusions about the expansion of nursery education.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the provision of educational facilities for the under-fives is rapidly becoming the monopoly of the private and often unqualified sector? Does he not consider that this development is likely to be detrimental to the interests of the under-fives?

I am aware of that, and I am also aware that everybody in the House, I think, would greatly welcome a large expansion of nursery provision for the under-fives if this were possible. Whether it will be possible or not will depend partly on funds available. Apart from that, as the Plowden Council is expected to report during the summer and this is within their terms of reference, I think that we should wait for their report before making any further decision.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the response which he has received so far from local education authorities in reply to his very welcome circular about setting up nursery classes?

No, Sir, I am not satisfied. Therefore, a good deal of prodding is going on.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any progress report on increases in the recruitment of teachers arising out of the experiments started by my right hon. Friend with regard to nursery provision?

That is a different question and I should like to have notice of it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if the new award to doctors means that the differential between the pay of university teachers teaching medical subjects and those teaching other disciplines will be still further increased.

The pay scales for university clinical academic staff will be determined in the light of the movement of salaries of university teachers generally, the recent award to doctors and the advice given to the Government by the University Grants Committee.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the existing differentiation causes great anger and indignation among all academics not teaching medical subjects? Will he initiate discussions with the appropriate trade union, the Association of University Teachers, to see whether it can be reduced?

I am to have the pleasure of attending the annual dinner of the Association of University Teachers tonight, where I do not doubt that I shall hear more about this. I am aware that this is a rather angry and indignant world generally, but I still prefer not to go beyond what I have already said.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made in establishing regional associations of local authorities and industry for the support of the arts.

The North-Eastern Association for the Arts, which my hon. Friend did so much to promote, and the Lincolnshire Association go on from strength to strength and enjoy considerable support from both local authorities and industry. There is also a South-West Arts Association and a Midlands Arts Association; a further eight are in various stages of development.

Would my hon. Friend agree to take some further positive action to encourage developments of this sort, as it seems a sensible way of trying to get more active co-operation between local authorities and industry in this respect?

I entirely agree. In this respect, we leave the initiative to come a great deal from the local communities, because we feel that when the initiative comes from their end something genuine develops, and that this is preferable to artificial stimulus from the centre.

Does the hon. Lady realise the damage which the arts have suffered from the Selective Employment Tax, and is she not ashamed?

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman has been misinformed.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action is being taken to ensure the continuance of the National Youth Orchestra.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now make a statement on the future of the National Youth Orchestra.

The Department is to make the orchestra a grant of £8,000 in the current financial year. That, along with its own resources, will enable it to resume activities immediately, and auditions will be held again in September.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there will be a good deal of satisfaction in the country that this most successful enterprise will be continued with her help?

Is the hon. Lady aware that the adequacy of this amount will bring profound relief that something has been done at last? As she knows, we have been waiting a long time.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to secure an increased provision of university diploma courses in nursing administration.

Universities decide for themselves what courses to offer, in the light of national needs. In this field these are a matter for consideration by my right hon. Friends the Minister of Health and the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Will my hon. Friend consider the woeful inadequacy of only one university at present providing such a course, with another planned for next year, in the light of the Salmon Comittee's Report, which may well be adopted by the Minister of Health? Will lie institute a crash programme so that the nurses can have the professional status which they deserve?

It is my understanding that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health is at present considering a report on the senior nursing staff structure, including the future provision of training facilities in nursing administration. Questions on the more detailed aspects of the present provision would be more correctly addressed to the Minister of Health.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what time limit he has set for the submission of plans by local authorities to end selection at 11-plus for schools.

12th July this year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, owing to uncertainty in the minds of certain local authorities, some have been encouraged to refuse or have indicated their unwillingness to end selec- tion at 11-plus or, in other cases, to postpone it indefinitely?

As I said in answer to an earlier Question, only two authorities have informed me that they do not propose to submit plans. I still think that what is remarkable is how small this number is and how high a level of cooperation we are achieving with the great majority of local authorities.

Is not the question of a time limit in this respect a matter of request? It is a year after the date of the official circular and there is no statutory or legal force in the limit. Are not some local authorities bound to take longer because the nature of their problems is more complex than those of some other local education authorities?

Certainly, that would be the case in some areas. As I think the hon. Gentleman knows, we have allowed six authorities an extension of time. Where some genuine case is put to us between now and 12th July, we shall, of course, consider it on its merits.

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that the key to the question is precisely the application of more money for the building of comprehensive schools—

Order. This is a Question about the time limit. Supplementary questions must be related to the original Question.

But it is related, because I am relating it to the time limit. There cannot be a time limit if there is no understanding of when the schools will be built to carry out the job.

I have answered that Question already. I do not know whether my hon. Friend was in the Chamber—[HON. MEMBERS: "He was."] He was. I have pointed out that, of course, a considerable part of the enormous school building programme which we authorised is capable of adaptation to comprehensive reorganisation, and that any additional special allocation on top of that could only be at the expense of the improvement and replacement of primary schools. I must insist that, apart from roofs over heads, primary schools ought to have priority in the building programme.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what are his proposals for offsetting the rise in school fees paid or contributed to by local education authorities which will result from the imposition of the Selective Employment Tax on education.

The Government are considering this matter.

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that the more one looks at the problem of the likely effect of the Selective Employment Tax on education, the more it seems to be inequitable and unfair as between one authority and another, one parent and another and one school and another?

If the hon. Gentleman has in mind the distinction between the application of the tax to the maintained sector and to the independent, direct grant and non-maintained special schools, he will, of course, know that most of the latter are already classified as charities and that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has indicated the Government's consideration of that aspect.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will bear in mind the clear evidence of the need for more boarding places for those being educated in the State sector? Is it not a serious feature of the tax that it will hit particularly hard boarding schools with their necessarily more lavish staffing?

I will take note of what the right hon. Gentleman has said in that connection.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now issue a circular to all local education authorities setting out advice on the joint provision of sports facilities for educational and community use.

The Circular issued jointly by the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Department of Education and Science in August 1964 set out the policy about joint provision, and I am glad to reaffirm this principle. The officers of the two Departments are always ready to discuss and advise upon detailed proposals. I expect the regional sports councils to give close attention to ensuring that local authorities provide for joint provision of sports facilities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a further circular, devoted entirely to this topic, would be of great assistance in overcoming the reluctance of some local authorities? Would he stress in particular the need for this in all future productions?

I think that a further circular would be premature, at least until we have completed the survey of our national sports facilities. Meantime I hope that some practical schemes can be encouraged which will probably do more than another circular at this stage.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will review the present basis for the supply of free school milk.

These matters are of course continuously under review, but I do not have it in mind to make any changes at present.

While appreciating that Answer, may I ask the Minister if he is quite satisfied that milk is at all times of the year the best way to use our resources for these children? Would not fruit be better for them.

This is a matter on which I have the continuous benefit of medical views. It is interesting that in infant and junior schools the take-up of free milk is well into the 90 per cent. area, and I am absolutely certain that the free milk scheme fulfils an important social and medical function. Possibly the more controversial part of the scheme is in secondary schols, where the take-up is a great deal lower, being just over 60 per cent.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what study and what financial estimate he has made of the effect and cost of the Selective Employment Tax on national voluntary sports organisations;

My right hon. Friend is aware of the impact of this tax upon voluntary youth and sport organisations, but no precise estimate of the total cost is available.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what representations he has made for exemptions of sports and voluntary youth organisations? Would he not agree that youth organisations are carrying out work which otherwise would have to be done by the State, and that they are worthy of special consideration?

I do not think that it would be right for me to disclose what discussions are going on within the Government, but the hon. Gentleman can be certain that all these considerations are in the mind of Ministers in our Department.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his estimate of the numbers of children from overseas countries at present attending independent schools in this country.

I can make no estimate.

Ought not the Minister to attempt to get these figures since the number of children is a significant proportion, approaching 4 per cent. to 5 per cent. of the total? Does he not accept that when parents in foreign countries wish their children to go abroad for education it is desirable that they should come to Britain? Is it not a pity to injure the schools and deter parents through discriminatory taxation?

My right hon. Friend already asks independent schools to inform him of the number and ages of their pupils. So far it has not been found necessary to ask them for further detailed information about their pupils. There is a limit to the number of requests which one can make for statistical purposes.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will seek to hold discussions with universities about their regulations concerning university entrance, with a view to taking steps to alter them.

Each university is responsible for its own admissions procedure. My hon. Friend will be glad to know, however, that the universities have formed a Standing Conference on University Entrance which is concerned with academic entrance requirements and has indeed already arranged for these to be considerably simplified. It consults regularly with the Schools Council.

Would my right hon. Friend consider injecting into the administration of the universities some real public control?

That goes rather beyond. the original Question. On the question of entrance requirements into universities, my hon. Friend will know that very different opinions are held as to whether we should stick to an A-level system, whether we should copy the Oxford andi Cambridge university entrance examination, or whether we should try to find some new form of aptitude test. I ant sure that for the moment the right thing is to leave this to the dialogue between the universities and the schools, although if at any time an initiative is called for. I would be only too ready to help.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now make a statement on the administration of technical colleges.

I would refer my hon, Friend to the White Paper, "A Plan for Polytechnics and Other Colleges", which was published last Tuesday. If my hon. Friend has government of colleges particularly in mind, I would refer him to paragraph 25 of the White Paper.

While welcoming my right hon. Friend's White Paper, may I ask him to take steps to see that his real views on technical education are made known, as against the legends which are so often printed?

I have profound sympathy with that reference to the debate on the binary system—the so-called debate which, to put it mildly, has often not been on a very high level of either intellect or accuracy.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now announce an increase in the university building programme for 1968-69.

I have nothing to add to my statement on 22nd December last.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the building programme of £25 million is grotesquely inadequate for 44 university institutions? Is he aware that we on this side of the House are deeply concerned?

All of us are deeply concerned to do as well by the universities as we can. The universities would like more than the £25 million, but in our view this is a reasonable provision considering the economic situation, and we certainly think that it will be a sufficient provision to enable the universities to achieve the Robbins target.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, we shall return to this matter at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement about his discussions with the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany.

The German Chancellor and I had a series of very useful talks covering all the main issues confronting us. I will, with permission, circulate the Communiqué issued after the talks in the