asked the Minister of Aviation what conclusions he has come to as a result of the Plowden Committee Report.

The Government's preliminary views were outlined in the debate on 1st February. We are discussing these matters with the industry and I hope in due course to be able to let the House have our more considered conclusions.

Would the Minister agree that what the industry urgently needs to know is, first, what it has to develop and make in the years ahead, and secondly, with whom it has to deal? In spite of the Plowden inquiry, is it not a fact that it has existed in a state of perpetual uncertainty for the best part of two years? Is it not madness to continue to treat in this way an industry which in May alone was responsible for over £24 million worth of exports?

I agree that in all industries certainty is desirable. But I would not accept that all responsibility rests with the Government, just as I do not accept for the Government credit for the industry's excellent export record. Equally, decisions about what aircraft it makes, and so on, are as much, if not more, for the companies than for the Government. On the defence side, which is the Government's particular interest, the defence requirements for the years ahead are stated in the Defence Review.

Would my right hon. Friend say what steps he has taken to convene a European conference of aircraft producers, as recommended by the Plowden Committee?

The Plowden Committee recommended a conference of European Aviation Ministers. Until it is clearer what kind of useful agenda can be drawn up for such a meeting, I do not think that it is worth calling a conference. I hope that it may be possible to do so later in the year. I have met a great number of my colleagues in the last few months.

Does not the Minister recollect that the Government deliberately took the debate on the Plowden Report, to which he referred, on a"take note"Motion so that they could hear the House's views before making a decision? The Plowden Report has been before us for seven months. How much longer will the Government sit on it?

It is not a matter of sitting on the Report. A number of the 23 detailed recommendations have been already implemented. But the House will agree that before taking any definite decisions on the major matters it would be right to discuss them fully with the industry.

asked the Minister of Aviation what nav-attack system is to be fitted to the British version of the F111A; whether it will meet the full British operational requirement; and what the basic price for the aircraft equipped for the British requirement is now likely to be.

The definition of this system is being carried out in consultation with the U.S. Government. It will meet the R.A.F. requirement completely, and its cost is included in the estimated unit cost of £2·5 million for the aircraft which I have given to the House on several occasions.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House will be glad to hear that assurance, particularly since there has been widespread suspicion that the system at present installed in the F111A is capable only of a degree of accuracy consistent with nuclear strike and not with tactical strike? Secondly, it is—

Order. There is a reasonable length for supplementary questions.

Secondly, is the Minister aware that it has also been widely believed that the price may be escalating to about £3 million rather than £2½, million?

I have already said that the system will meet the R.A.F. requirement and that it will be within the estimated unit cost. If the hon. Gentleman has other information which he wishes to bring to my notice, I will consider it.

asked the Minister of Aviation to what extent the modification of the F111A required by the Royal Air Force involves the use of major components, such as the undercarriage, designed for the FB111 nuclear bombers being developed for the United States Air Force.

asked the Minister of Aviation approximately what proportion of the modifications to the F111A necessary to bring it to Royal Air Force specification are common to the F111B.

None of the modifications to F111A necessary to bring it to the R.A.F. specification are common to the Fl 11B. Nor will the R.A.F. aircraft—designated F111K—have any major components specifically developed for the FB111 other than the strengthened undercarriage.

Does the right hon. Gentleman, then, deny the report which was published in the Daily Telegraph in February that the undercarriage of the Royal Air Force version would be the same as the undercarriage of the FB111, similar information having been given, we understand, to the public in the United States?

Quite apart from denying that, that is exactly what my Answer in the House said, that components would not be common to the FB111 except the undercarriage.

Can the Minister tell the House whether the contract has yet been signed for the aircraft with the Royal Air Force specification?

One does not sign one contract for the lot, but, as the hon. Member knows, because he is not unfamiliar with these matters, quite a number of contracts are involved, and the basic contracts are in any event with the United States Government, of which we have the benefit.

When we get it, if we get it, it will be able to carry nuclear bombs, will it not?

Answer.

I think the hon. Gentleman's question should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

Oh.

Is it not a fact that—

I called the hon. Member to ask the next Question on the Paper.

In view of the insulting answer—

No.

Yes. I have already said that these notices must be given conventionally.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Aviation what applications he has received from airlines for assistance in re-establishing air services to South-West England, in view of the fact that there is no direct link by air from the South-West to London.

None, Sir.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that this is a very serious matter and is most disturbing to say the least? Would he give every encouragement to either private operators or B.E.A. to restore this link between London and the South-West, even if it means a temporary grant or temporary subsidy to get it under way again?

No, Sir. My Department has no authority to grant such subsidies. But the question of restoring the link is for the commercial judgment of potential operators.

Adequate air services in this part of the country are an essential part of the transport network. Will my hon. Friend consider whether his Ministry could exert some pressure on British European Airways if the private concerns are unable to provide this badly needed service?

An application has been made by British Eagle to extend its present London-Newquay-Helston licence to include Exeter.

Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate how important a service to the South-West is for the development area and the establishment of industry, because it is the inability of people to come from the Midlands or London to the new development area and get back in the same day which causes a strong disincentive to the development of subsidiary factories in the South-West?

Yes, Sir, the Government accept that proposition; but the airline operators have to find the customers, and that is their responsibility.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement on the anticipated effects of supersonic boom over Greater London and other parts of the British Isles.

My Department is fully conscious of the need to minimise the nuisance of sonic bangs from supersonic aircraft, and studies into this problem are proceeding in association with the French and American authorities.

Will the hon. Gentleman realise that the public are not prepared yet for what they may be subjected to, and, while looking into the possibility of minimising the effect, will he do something to prepare the public for what they will have to face even if he is as successful as he hopes?

Yes, Sir. On present information, it seems unlikely that supersonic flying will take place within 100 miles of the base airport from which these aircraft will operate. As to over-flying, we shall have to take international advice and considerations into account.

Does that mean that it is now expected that civil aircraft will fly supersonically over the United Kingdom? If so, is it not a departure from previous policy statements?

That is precisely what I did not say.

asked the Minister of Aviation what regulations are in force in his Department with regard to the means of delivery to be employed for goods or supplies that are ordered by the Department.

The current regulations state that the primary considerations to be taken into account are the suitability of a particular form of transport for the traffic concerned, its availability, and the need to give prompt and efficient service.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there appears to be a rule that the bulk of supplies have to go by rail, thereby incurring expensive packing for delicate equipment and machinery and vast extra cost? Will he sweep away this ossified Luddism and reintroduce the system that the cheapest be always chosen?

No, Sir. Under the reforms and reconsideration of the regulations which this Government have undertaken, consignments of really delicate material are given special consideration.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will institute an inquiry into the partial breakdown in internal air services during the month of June; and if he will give further consideration to the policy of depending mainly on one airline and one type of aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he is aware that British European Airways has for several successive days cancelled flights because aircraft are not airworthy; and whether he will issue a general direction, in the public interest, to British European Airways to re-equip its fleet.

No direction or inquiry is called for. The technical difficulties which have unfortunately interfered with the regularity and punctuality of some of B.E.A.'s domestic services in recent weeks were of a temporary nature and do not indicate any basic inadequacies in B.E..A.'s equipment or organisation.

Is not that answer complacent in the extreme, and does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the coincidence of a crisis in engine maintenance with the beginning of the tourist season and at the time of the seamen's strike is prima facie evidence of mismanagement in B.E.A., and that this has been confirmed in the last two days by the evidence of very low morale among B.E.A. staff? Will the Minister institute an inquiry?

On the first point, my statement was factual. It was due to deficiency of engines and engine parts, and the responsibility for that rests not with the airline but with those who ought to have supplied them. On the second point, as the hon. Gentleman may have seen from the Press, B.E.A. itself has set up an inquiry into its form of organisation. At this stage, therefore, I do not think that there is need for a further one.

Do not these questions and answers show that all is not well with B.E.A.? What action will my right hon. Friend take when the petition signed by over 400 B.E.A. pilots reaches him?

I have read in the Press that a petition is to be sent to me, but I have not so far received it. It would be irresponsible in the extreme to comment on a petition which one had not seen. I must stress that the management and running of the airlines is the responsibility of the boards and, until such time as it seems that they are not able to discharge that function, a Minister should not rush in and interfere.

But is it not a fact that very large numbers of passengers have been and still are suffering serious inconvenience? The Minister used the word "temporary". Should not he find out how temporary is temporary?

The right hon. Gentleman might have credited me with the fact that on the very day that the first inconvenience was caused I made inquiries. I have gone fully into the reasons for it and the predicted end of the troubles. B.E.A. expect that these engineering problems and failure of supplies should end very shortly.

asked the Minister of Aviation what are the arrangements made by the European Launcher Development Organisation for the inspection and control by that Organisation of the purposes to which its funds are applied.

Proposals to incur expenditure on the E.L.D.O. programme are examined in detail by the staff of the Organisation during the preparation of the annual budget. The budget is voted by the E.L.D.O. Council which is composed of representatives of the member countries. Subsequent expenditure is examined and verified by the E.L.D.O. staff and the Organisation auditors. Arrangements to improve control of expenditure are currently under discussion.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, although expenditure may be examined, there is absolutely no physical control over what happens to the money once it has been allocated, and the French, for example, have accused the Germans of building up a complete scientific and technological infrastructure, using E.L.D.O. funds and diverting them from their original purpose? Is it not desirable that there should be an international committee of estimates to consider this matter?

As I said, proposals for better control have been studied and discussed in recent weeks, and the report of the group is to be presented to the Ministers tomorrow. One of the proposals is to have a corp of inspectors, which, I think, would go some way to meet the point my hon. Friend makes.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the British contribution up to 31st March last was £31 million out of a total expenditure by E.L.D.O. of £80 million? In view of the massive sums entailed, can he not give the House an assurance that we here in Britain will in future have reasonable control over future expenditure?

I accept the hon. Gentleman's strictures in the sense that they are directed really at the previous Government for drawing up a most unsatisfactory Convention. The procedures are laid down in the Financial Protocol to the Convention which was drawn up when E.L.D.O. was started. We are trying to make some improvements both as to the amount of our contribution and as to the methods of control.

In view of that highly unsatisfactory reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment and make further strictures on the Minister.

Order. Notice must be given in the conventional form.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will take steps to stop the loss of skilled designers from the aircraft industry.

We are taking steps to create a healthy industry with a stable programme of work, and this should give designers the assurance they require.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that more than 500 skilled designers have now been recruited to the American subsidiary working in this country, and is he further aware that under his leadership the life-blood of the aviation industry is draining away?

Will he put a measure of confidence back into the industry by giving it some sort of future to hold its designers?

I must make clear, as there seems to be widespread misapprehensions, that neither I nor my Department design, manufacture or sell aeroplanes. I accept that designers are going to these other occupations. But is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we should have some form of restrictive employment regulations for the aircraft industry? I am sure that that is not acceptable. As I understand it, the rates of pay offered by these American firms are greatly in excess of what the men concerned are receiving now, so that even if the work were in the British industry it might not necessarily stop the drain of which the hon. Gentleman complains.

Would the Minister confirm that, as that Answer seems to imply that he regards the skilled men who work for Comprehensive Design Incorporated as lost to the British industry? Would he not agree to enumerate such measures as he has already taken to increase confidence in the British industry?

I think that fully to answer that question would take rather a long time, but, as I said quite clearly, the defence requirements of the country have been studied and we are trying now to settle the outstanding civil aircraft requirements.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will make a statement about the failures in the PX parachute.

asked the Minister of Aviation why the PX-type parachute was withdrawn from service; and if he will make a statement.

I much regret the needless anxiety which has been caused by an inaccurate and misleading newspaper article. The PX-type parachute was introduced into Service use in November, 1963, and there were 30,000 successful descents before two fatal accidents in 1965. An investigation of possible causes, during which use of the parachutes was temporarily suspended, revealed no basic fault although it was thought advisable to strengthen the nylon centre base tie.

Would not the Minister agree that when jumping out of aeroplanes it is rather essential that the parachutists should have absolute confidence in their equipment? [Laughter.] In view of this Press report to which the Minister referred, can he say whether the experts are now absolutely satisfied with the design and manufacture and testing of this parachute?

The House will forgive me if I ask them to consider this as a very serious matter indeed. Yes, I am informed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence that this is the case, that the Services regard this as a suitable and adequate piece of equipment. I hope that my Answer will be given the widest publicity in order to rectify any damage done to morale which this ill-informed article may have occasioned.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the equipment used by the British airborne forces is considered to be amongst the best in the world and that the low incidence of failure of the parachute reflects not only great credit on the manufacturers but also on those members of the Services whose job it is to pack the parachutes?

Yes, I would, and may I say that many of the people concerned in these tests are themselves very experienced parachutists.

Can the hon. Gentleman say why a centre base tie of insufficient strength has been used for a considerable time, and is he now satisfied that the centre base tie is of adequate strength for the parachute?

The centre base tie has been increased in strength, but as the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, as he is himself a skilled instructor in parachuting, it is very dangerous to have a tie which is too strong. It is a matter of finding a balance.

asked the Minister of Aviation if he will give the number of parachute jumps performed on a PX-type parachute in each of the last two years, respectively, and the number of irregularities analysed between thrown lines, blown peripheries and premature openings.

As the Answer contains a number of figures, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT. These figures will show Ministry of Aviation tests and do not include Service jumps. They also include induced failures.

I appreciate the complications, but is it not regrettable that there has not been adequate high-speed photography of 400 frames per second from the same axis on a static line, since this would have shown a great deal of importance to those engaged in research?

The type of photography which has been suggested in the article to which I have referred does not necessarily commend itself to my Department. In point of fact, photographs are taken from three points for jumps during their testing. We consider this to be effective as it gives better angles of view.

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he is taking, in the interests of maintaining the sales at home and abroad of the British aerospace industry, to publicise its achievements.

My Department, in conjunction with the other Departments concerned, assists the industry's own extensive publicity effort in a number of ways, for example, exhibitions such as the recent joint Ministry of Aviation/S.B.A.C. contribution to the Hanover Air Show, films, and the distribution of publicity material overseas through the official Overseas Services. On 3rd to 6th June I sponsored a Conference of Commonwealth Airlines at which the airlines had full opportunity to discuss their requirements with representatives of the British aircraft industry.

While the House will be grateful for that Answer, could the Minister say whether he saw or has called for a transcript of the B.B.C's programme "Twenty-four Hours" of 22nd June, and what action he has taken to make representations to the B.B.C. against yet another example of unbalanced knocking at British achievements in the aircraft industry?

I have no responsibility for B.B.C. programmes, and on the night in question I did not see it because at the invitation of the S.B.A.C. I was present at their dinner as their guest.

Is the right hon. Gentleman taking steps to look at the transcript? Is he aware that it really was a most serious denigration of the British aircraft industry? While he has no responsibility for the B.B.C., should he not make representations to them?

I have not seen the transcript. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?] I have discussed the complaint with the Society, which arranged the programme with the B.B.C., and I know that their complaint is being considered by the B.B.C.

Would it not be easier to publicise British achievements in aerospace if instead of having six Ministries doing the job we had one Ministry?

Hear, hear.

Mr. Onslow for the next Question.

Answer.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment—before the Minister has disappeared.

I hope that hon. Members will give notices of intention to raise matters on the Adjournment conventionally. Otherwise such notices can take up a lot of time.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will publish six-monthly reports on the progress of the Concord project.

I accept that the House should be kept as fully informed as possible about the progress of this project but I am not sure that the rigid timetable proposed is the best means.

Would the Minister not agree that it is important that the House should be kept aware of the expenditure involved and the methods by which it is being controlled, and would he not agree that there is an excellent case here for extension of the specialist committee system in relation to this particular project?

I am not exactly sure what the hon. Member has in mind about a particular specialist committee for one project, because I doubt if hon. Members would necessarily want to devote their time to the detail necessary. That, anyway, is not a matter for me. However, I do accept the principle that the House should be kept as fully informed as possible.

asked the Minister of Aviation what proposals have been put to him by British European Airways regarding their future needs for new aircraft and whether he has yet made a decision regarding these proposals.

B.E.A. are evaluating various possible combinations of aircraft, British and American, which would furnish the extra capacity they will need after 1969. No decisions can be taken until the work of evaluation is complete. I shall make a statement as soon as I can.

Does the Minister mean by that reply that he has not received any definite submissions from B.E.A.? If so, could he make that clear? Secondly, would he assure the House that he will make a statement to it while it is sitting and before we rise for the Summer Recess about this decision, which is probably the most single important decision for the future of civil aircraft manufacturing in the country?

I will give the undertaking, and I will make a statement as soon as possible, and I hope that it will be done before the House rises for the Recess. I also accept the great importance of this decision. B.E.A. has put forward a number of combinations and, at my request, it is now studying others, to cover the whole range of possibilities as to its needs.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it puzzles many hon. Members why B.E.A. should have to go to America to look for a medium-sized airbus or a Boeing 737, in view of the fact that this year the British Aircraft Corporation will be selling 120 million dollars' worth of aircraft to America against a tax of 10 per cent.? Can my fight hon. Friend assure us that B.E.A. will not come back with the BAC111?

When a matter of this importance to the Corporation has to be settled as to its future plans, it is only right that all possibilities should be evaluated. I know that B.E.A. is hoping that it will be able to continue its policy of flying British, as it has done successfully in the past.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that there are many hon. Members in all parts of the House who believe that our national airlines ought to fly British? When he is making up his mind, will he consider and recollect that B.O.A.C. strongly recommended that it should go entirely American against the VC10, and that the VC10 has proved to be a very attractive and economical aircraft? Would not the same apply to British aircraft for B.E.A.?

As I have said, I hope very much that a British solution can be found to the problem.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement regarding the present position of the negotiations for the production of a European airbus.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will make a statement on the joint venture with France to produce a medium range jet airbus; and what difficulties have intervened to delay: progress in completing this jet aircraft.

Yes, Sir. Ministerial and official discussions have taken place on several occasions in recent weeks with the French and German Governments on the projected civil airbus. An outline specification for a short-haul, high-capacity aircraft has now been agreed, apart from the choice of engine, and further talks are planned during the next few weeks.

In the course of these discussions, has the right hon. Gentleman noticed any cooling-off on the part of the French since the observations of his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence?

I can give a categorical answer to that: No, Sir.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer, and I hope that the good relations which seem now to have been established will continue.

asked the Minister of Aviation what action he is taking to encourage the development of the electronics industry in the north-east of England.

Electronics firms in the North-East are considered for Ministry of Aviation contracts on the same basis as firms in the rest of the country.

Is my hon. Friend not aware that the developing electronics firms in the North-East have formed an association, on the advice of the Government, in the hope that that would bring some further development contracts? They are now placed to receive them but have not had any offers at all.

I cannot quite agree with my hon. Friend. The existence of the association is very well known, if for no better reason than that we have given it advice as to how to organise itself to compete for Government contracts. However, we have no power within the Department to extend a capacity which, generally speaking, is fairly adequate.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether Her Majesty's Government will now permit the sale of British manufactured aero-engines and civil aircraft, respectively, to Indonesia; and if he will make a statement.

Applications for export licences to supply British civil aircraft and engines to Indonesia will be considered on their merits.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now agree to lift the ban on the sale of the Skyvan aircraft to Indonesia?

If an application is made for the sale of Skyvans, it will be considered on its merits, as I have said. As well as the political aspect, there are also the financial aspects to be considered in a sale of that kind.

Will the right hon. Gentleman have consultations with his colleague, the Minister of Overseas Development, to ensure that the £1 million that we have just given to Indonesia is not spent on buying foreign aircraft which are only equivalent to those available in this country?

The control of the £1 million is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who referred to the matter in his statement on Monday. Further questions about that should be addressed to him. In principle, I would not think it right that that loan should be tied to specific purchases of aircraft.

asked the Minister of Aviation what support he is giving to research and development into multi-jet and deflected jet vertical take-off and landing aircraft, respectively, with a view to determining the most suitable type and formulating a naval requirement which can be met by the British aircraft industry.

A flight research programme using the S.C.1 multi-jet and P.1127 vectored thrust V/STOL aircraft is under way. The results will of course be available to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, who is responsible for the formulation of operational requirements.

Will the right hon. Gentleman expedite this research and development in order to stop the brain drain which was referred to earlier, so that this country does not lose the advantages of the lead which it has in this revolutionary form of propulsion?

I can confirm that the research is continuing and, as regards the P1127, development and production contracts have already been placed.

asked the Minister of Aviation what discussions he has had with the industry on the part to be played by Great Britain in meeting the longterm world demand for civil transport aircraft.

My Department is in constant touch with the industry on this subject, which is currently being considered by the Transport Aircraft Requirements Committee on which the industry is represented.

As the period of gestation of an aircraft is about seven to ten years, could the Minister say whether he is having discussions about the generation of aircraft after the Concord?

I have not had any discussions on the further generation of supersonic aircraft, but, as the hon. Gentleman and the House know, we have been actively concerned with the subsonic airbus, on which I have already answered Questions this afternoon.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in a book shortly to be published, Mr. Worcester makes the claim that he was close to the Labour leadership and advised it about the future structure of the British aircraft industry which has led to the cancellation of so many projects? Is it not true that the right hon. Gentleman himself was in the chair when that advice was given to the Labour Party?

The hon. Gentleman is anticipating a Question of one of my hon. Friends down for Written Answer today. In view of his Question, I will give him the Answer now. I am asked on what occasions we have had the official advice of Mr. Worcester during the lifetime of this Government. The Answer is: None. Mr. Worcester, among many other experts in the field, did partake in discussions with me and some of my right hon. and hon. Friends when we were in opposition, in the same way that I imagine right hon and hon. Gentlemen opposite, consult people in the industry now on these matters.>

On a point of order. As my right hon. Friend has answered Written Question No. 1 put by me, may I ask a supplementary question?

If that was the hon. Gentleman's Written Question, yes.

Then may I thank my right hon. Friend for putting Mr. Worcester in his proper place?

asked the Minister of Aviation what steps he is taking to encourage further development of the Decca omnitrac navigation system to enable it to be accepted as the standard long range safety navigational aid, particularly on oceanic routes.

Flight trials of the Dectra aircraft navigation system were recently carried out at the Aeroplane and Armament Experimental Establishment, Boscombe Down. An operational evaluation of the system will begin in 1967. Major transatlantic airline operators have been invited to fit the equipment for a year, and to report on its use.

Is my hon. Friend aware that those of us who have seen the system in operation have been greatly impressed by it, as also have the pilots who were with us? Will he say whether or not there are any competing systems and what attention they are receiving from the Government?

There is only one other system, made by the same company, which has been brought to our attention. But I might say that the Government are helping very substantially in the installation of equipment supplied by the company for experimental purposes.

asked the Minister of Aviation whether he will give an assurance that no further development at the radome site at Steamer Point, Friars Cliff, Christchurch, will proceed without consultation with the local authority; and that steps will be taken to avoid any further encroachment on the amenities of local residents.

The local authority will be consulted, as in the past, on new developments. Steamer Point is planned to continue in use as a site for telecommunications research and development, but it is not expected that this will encroach upon local amenities.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary bear in mind the deprecating effect of this development on local property values and on adjacent thoroughfares, particularly Seaway Avenue, which has traffic which is ten times greater than before the development took place?

Consultations took place with the local authority, in conformity with the Minister of Housing and Local Government's Circular No. 100, and continuing consultations will take place if objections of that nature are raised.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he will revive the practice of granting a single broadcasting licence to cover all broadcasting instruments used in an old people's home.

No, Sir. This change was made some years ago because it was unfair to retirement pensioners generally and to others if one group of people were exempted from taking out licences for sets used in their private quarters. I am afraid that this argument is still valid.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that broadcasting offers a great deal of enjoyment to people who for one reason or another are unable to live in their own homes? Will he, therefore, at this moment when he has relaxed his Whip over his colleagues, consider taking a rather more generous attitude on this matter?

I have great sympathy with this question. The truth is that up to 1952 the Postmaster-General turned a blind eye to what was in effect a breach of the law, and I do not think that we can now resume this amiable practice. However, there is an anomaly, and I am prepared to look at this.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will state the approximate annual cost of introducing a 20 per cent. reduction in television and radio licence fees for retirement pensioners and chronically sick persons.

No assessment is available of the number of the chronic sick nor of how many have television sets. No precise estimate can be made of the cost of a concession to retirement pensioners, but I understand it would be in the region of £2 million to £4 million a year.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. Is it not obvious that the cost involved in the second of my two Questions is only a fraction of what will be recovered by the application of the proposed measure? Will he, therefore, make these people his first priority in disbursing any funds which may arise from the measures he proposes?

I have every sympathy with my hon. Friend's point of view, but I do not think that this is a way of helping these people.

asked the Postmaster-General what estimate he has made of the annual loss of revenue from the evasion of television and radio licence fees; and what action he is taking to reduce the loss.

Some £9 million. Inquiries of households not recorded as licensed will be intensified, and the number of detector cars is being doubled. I am also considering ways in which dealers themselves could help in the enforcement of the licence system.

Mr. Walker.

Question No. 30.

rose—

Order. No point of order can arise. Mr. Walker.

asked the Postmaster-General when the B.B.C.2 programme network promised to the Newcastle-on-Tyne area for September, 1965, is to be implemented.

The construction time-table for B.B.C. stations is, of course, primarily a matter for the Corporation itself. But I am pleased to tell the hon. Lady that I understand that it now hopes to start test transmissions from the Pontop Pike B.B.C.2 transmitter, which will serve Newcastle-on-Tyne, in September and normal transmissions in October.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that information. Is not he now very glad that he is no longer the Chief Whip but the Postmaster-General?

May I take this opportunity to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on behalf of my hon. and right hon. Friends on his appointment, and to say that we look forward to debating with him and hearing his views on the many problems that his predecessor left unresolved? On the Question, can the right hon. Gentleman state what proportion of listeners in areas covered by B.B.C.2—or alleged to be covered by B.B.C.2—are having difficulty in getting a signal, or are getting no signal at all?

I thank the hon. Member for the first part of his supplementary question—if it was a question—and would like to say that I, in turn, look forward to debating with him. He will certainly hear my views on many matters in the very near future. As for the second point, he will have to put down a Question.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) what decision the Government has made about the proposal to set up local radio stations;

The Government's review of broadcasting services, which includes the question of local sound broadcasting, is not yet completed, but the House will certainly be informed of decisions as soon as they have been taken.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether he is keeping open the idea of allowing the B.B.C. to go ahead with a pilot scheme? Can he also say whether reports this week, notably in The Times on Monday, that the Government have come down against commercial stations are correct? If so, many of us will feel very pleased about it.

I cannot anticipate the findings of the review, but I can go as far as to assure my hon. Friend that I will certainly maintain public service principles in any proposals I bring to the House with regard to local sound broadcasting.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that this decision must obviously go hand-in-hand with the decision concerning pirate radio stations? Will he disabuse his mind of the view put forward by his hon. Friend that local stations should be confined to the B.B.C.?

I am afraid that I do not agree with that. This point was put from the Opposition benches when this matter was raised before. There is no connection between the two matters. We shall look at sound broadcasting on its merits, quite apart from the question of the pirate stations.

Has the right hon. Gentleman had time to look back in his papers? It he has he will have found that the Answer he has given to this Question is the same answer as that which we have had for one-and-a-half years. Will he at least give us an assurance that before this Session is over we shall receive that White Paper?

asked the Postmaster-General if he is aware of the effects upon British exporting industries of the abolition of the commercial papers category of mail by the Universal Postal Union in 1964; and if he will seek to reverse this decision at a future meeting of the Union.

My right hon. Friend has received a number of representations on this point and these will be taken into account when preparations for the next Congress are being made. This will not, however, be until 1969.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one major exporting firm has put its additional cost of postage on export invoices, bills of lading, and certificates of insurance at £20,000 a year? Would the hon. Gentleman agree that this is not helpful to our exporters, and will he consult his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to whom representations have also been made?

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's observations in regard to a particular firm, but, after all, we opposed the change at Congress on the ground that it withdrew a long-standing concession to business users and increased postal costs of international trade. This was our objection, but I must tell the hon. Gentleman that, just as this change applies to our people in this country, so it applies to other countries as well, and therefore it must lie over until the next Congress.

asked the Postmaster-General (1) if he will have consultations with builders of houses with front gardens to ascertain if it would be possible to have post boxes at the gate or entrance to the path leading to the front door;

My right hon. Friend is anxious to encourage developments in both these directions, we have done and are doing a good deal to persuade local authorities and property developers to instal these boxes, not only in blocks of flats but in offices as well, and we are considering whether a positive inducement could be offered. We have tried garden gate delivery, but the arrangement was not favoured by the residents. Nevertheless there are advantages to the Post Office in garden gate boxes and we intend to pursue the possibilities further.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply, but is he aware that I first put down a similar Question as long ago as 1958 and that the matter is still being considered? Does not he think that it is a waste of time and energy for postmen to have to climb at least four flights of stairs in blocks of flats where there are no lifts, and also that it is a waste of time and energy for them to have to climb sixteen steps to the front door, as happens in Plymouth, to deliver perhaps one letter? Many countries overseas have the facilities for which I am asking.

I agree with a great deal of what the hon. Lady has said about multi-storey flats, and it is true, as she said, that she asked an identical Question as far back as 1958. Head postmasters have been instructed to approach local authorities and others to encourage them to provide facilities for central delivery. Some progress is being made, mainly in office blocks. For example, at Leeds 53 multi-storey offices have some form of central delivery, and we shall pursue this system as vigorously as we can.

asked the Postmaster-General how often during the past six months there have been delays on telephone lines between London and Belfast; and how this compares with a year previously.

Except on the occasion of cable faults there have been no serious delays between London and Belfast since March when the number of circuits available was increased by 20 per cent.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Can he give the House any idea of what plans there are for further increases on the trunk line between London and Belfast, bearing in mind the ever-growing volume of traffic on this line?

I am giving urgent and personal attention to the question of forecasting, because it is a vital matter. The number of circuits was increased from 159 to 189 in March, and I am pleased to be able to tell the hon. Gentleman that we hope to increase the number of circuits by another 15 per cent. at the end of this year.

asked the Lord President of the Council (1) whether, to ensure greater effectiveness and efficiency of the House of Commons, he will move to set up a Select Committee of Members from all sides of the House with experience of operational research and other management sciences:

There is no need to set up a Select Committee since the functions proposed are already carried out by the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) which can, if it wishes, call upon expert assistance within or outside the House. An O. & M. study of the work and staffing of certain departments in the House is at present being conducted.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that there is an important need to improve both the quantitative and the qualitative aspects of the services in the House, which are not covered by the present study? Will he use his influence with the Prime Minister to ensure that he is able to get an invitation to the forthcoming National Productivity Conference?

Perhaps my hon. Friend will address his second question to the Prime Minister. With regard to the first point, I think that the House of Commons Services Committee is adequate to deal with this, but it can call for outside experience and representation if it wishes.

asked the Lord President of the Council when the Catering and Accommodation Sub-Committee will be submitting a scheme for air conditioning in the kitchen, cafeteria and dining areas of the House of Commons.

I have been asked to reply.

The Catering Sub-Committee is about to begin a full investigation into the refreshment facilities and the accommodation in which these facilities have to be provided and they will consult the Accommodation and Housekeeping Sub-Committee, as necessary. The question of air conditioning will no doubt be considered during this investigation.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, sympathetic as it sounded. May I ask her and her colleagues to bear very much in mind the need to do away with the antiquated and oppressive conditions which the staff and Members of the House have to experience in these parts of this building.

We are very concerned about the position, and, as I said in my Answer, the matter is being fully looked into.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will initiate joint arrangements by which wider-used accommodation might be made available in another place for use by the House of Commons.

The use of accommodation in another place is, of course, a matter for them, but if there is spare accommodation anywhere we might have joint discussions.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will now give an estimate' of the increase during the next 12 months in the retail price of meat as a result of the Selective Employment Tax and other Government Measures.

I have nothing to add to the reply on the effect of the Selective Employment Tax on food prices generally which my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary gave the hon. Member for Barry (Mr. Gower) on 17th May. As to other measures, I am not clear what the hon. Member has in mind, but would draw to his attention the Government's declared policy on productivity, prices and incomes, and the provisions of the National Plan.

Will the Minister recognise that his answer is extremely ill-defined and unhelpful? Does he realise that the Selective Employment Tax will increase the cost of retailing meat through its application to at least four stages of meat processing? Does he also realise that the suspension of investment allowances and the levy laid down by the Agriculture Bill are likely to lead to a substantial increase in retail prices?

The hon. Member is quite wrong on the latter point. Secondly, as my hon. Friend said in that Answer, food prices may increase, but generally the increase will be no greater than about two-thirds of 1 per cent. That is what the hon. Member is complaining about, and no more than that.