asked the Minister of Health what agreement has been reached between his Department and the dental profession about fees payable under the National Health Service for certain forms of dental treatment, such as crowns and bridging.

A revised scale of fees for all forms of dental treatment under the National Health Service recommended to my right hon. Friend by the Dental Rates Study Group was incorporated in Regulations presented to the House on 14th June and came into operation on 1st July.

I did not entirely catch the Minister's reply. Do I gather that the new rates are acceptable to the profession?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will take steps to relax existing regulations so as to enable all those severely disabled to have some kind of motor vehicle, if they so require.

I would refer by hon. Friend to my reply to the hon. Members for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Fortescue) and Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Sharples) on 27th June last.

While I am pleased that the review is taking place, may I ask the Minister whether he does not agree that every single step should be taken as quickly as possible to make life more bearable for the severely disabled? Could he say when the results of the review will be announced? How much longer must we wait?

I do not want my hon. Friend to get excited about this. I have promised that my right hon. Friend would get this review through as quickly as possible, and certainly by the end of this year. That is what I have promised to do.

The Parliamentary Secretary will recall that he has made that promise on a number of occasions. Will the review be presented to the House before the end of the year, and will the House have an opportunity of debating it?

I have said all along that we hope to get this review by the end of this year. Progress is as good as we could hope, and it will be done before the end of the year.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has considered a letter from the Sleaford Medical Group dated 14th September; what reply he has sent; and what action he proposes to take to deal with the matters outlined in that letter.

I have sent the right hon. Member a copy of my reply, from which he will have seen that the situation in Sleaford calls for no special action on my part.

While thanking the Minister for the courtesy of sending me a copy of his reply, may I ask him whether he does not agree that the letter which he received reflects a genuine concern which runs through the National Health Service generally in regard to doctors' lists? Will he not consider this perhaps on a more general basis?

I agree that the letter reflected concern, but I do not think that the concern was justified, because the average list for doctors in the Sleaford Medical Group is only about 1,800 compared with the national average of over 2,400.

I understand that one member of this group had been ill for some time and that another had applied for another post, which makes the position look rather different.

If there is a change in circumstances which alters the position, I will certainly look at it again.

asked the Minister of Health if he will issue instructions to ensure that the phenylkeltonuria testing of children is carried out in all parts of the British Isles and not as at present confined to certain areas.

All local health authorities in England and Wales are now testing for this condition.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is not really compulsory, because I think some counties are not doing this? Is he aware that a small county like Herefordshire feels so strongly on this issue that it is carrying out this test because it saves thousands of £s to the National Health Service, but more important, because it means that specialised treatment and tuition for these unfortunate children can be given at an earlier age?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have checked and confirmed that all local authorities are doing this. The results have shown that there were 41 positive cases in 1964 and 45 in 1965. This amounts to about one in 20,000 live births. This is, therefore, a comparatively rare condition, although I agree that it is highly desirable that it is diagnosed at the earliest possible stage.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will instruct registrars of births to ascertain if the child has been put on a doctor's list, and if it has not, to supply relevant information to enable this to be done.

When a birth is registered, the registrar gives the parent a form of application for the child to be put on a doctor's list, with the child's name, date of birth and National Health Service number ready filled in.

Would the Minister take note of a resolution passed by the National Executive of the Health Executive Councils urging the Minister to give greater publicity to the need for parents to take this action?

I do not think there is much more we can do about this. If we supply the appropriate preliminary medical card to the registrar and if the registrar fills in all the details and tells the parent that it is the card with which the child should be registered, there is not much more we can do about it.

asked the Minister of Health what consideration he is giving to a plan for the purchase of vouchers in this country to cover the cost of unexpected medical assistance required abroad.

As the hon. Member is aware from correspondence with my hon. and learned Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the Government do not think it would be appropriate for them to sponsor such a scheme. Exchange control restrictions would not prevent the remittance abroad of reasonable amounts of foreign currency to meet emergency medical expenses.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that it is possible to buy vouchers outside the travel allowance to repair one's car but that one cannot buy these to repair one's self or one's family? If a private organisation puts forward a sensible scheme, will the Ministry give it its blessing?

The point to remember is that vouchers do not contain any element of insurance. They would not, therefore, protect people in the lower income groups. I cannot see why there is any need for vouchers as long as an assurance has been obtained that these costs will be allowed to be remitted.

Is not the real answer to this problem to negotiate more reciprocal arrangements with overseas countries? Could we be told what steps the Minister is taking towards this end?

The hon. Gentleman will know that we have a considerable number of reciprocal agreements with overseas countries and that we are always eager to negotiate such agreements. One of the difficulties we have had to face is that many countries do not extend to their own people the kind of services which we extend to ours, and that it would mean them extending to British subjects the sort of services which they do not extend to their own subjects. However, whenever it is possible to negotiate reciprocal arrangements, we are anxious to do so.

asked the Minister of Health why certain spectacle lenses, in particular Zeiss T coated lenses and Stigmacoat lenses, which were formerly available on National Health Service prescription, are now available only on payment of the full charge and at more than double the cost to the patient.

There has never been provision of such lenses under the supplementary ophthalmic service. They could be supplied under the hospital eye service instead of ordinary National Health Service lenses without extra charge if they were considered clinically necessary in a particular case.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that this involves duplication of service, when a patient has to go first to an optician and then perhaps to the hospital, and also additional time lost for the patient? Would he further agree that many people who have used the eye service and the dental service in recent months have a suspicion that his right hon. Friend is so worried about the loss of revenue from the prescription charge that he is trying to get in more money from those charges which still exist?

I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman. If what the hon. Gentleman demands were to come into effect it would inevitably involve additional cost to the Exchequer for these spectacles. We say that where the spectacles are required for clinical purposes they can be supplied through the hospital, but we are not prepared at this stage to put them on general prescription.

asked the Minister of Health what consideration he is giving to the effect upon the technological development of the industry of the ban, subject to exceptions, on the irradiation of foodstuffs intended for human consumption.

This has always been fully in mind. Control of the process is needed to ensure its successful development as well as the protection of the consumer.

Would the Minister bear in mind that the British industry is the main exporter to foreign countries of plant of this kind, and even the very conservatively-minded Food and Drug Administration in the United States has approved the process for certain foodstuffs?

There are two reasons. First, we must be concerned about the marginal health hazard. Secondly, the report of the working party, which is the basis on which these proposed prohibitions are laid down, stated that in the early stages of the industrial use of the process a single irresponsible or ignorant action by one individual could bring the whole process into disrepute. We shall see that we do not impede progress, but we think that control is necessary.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will now confirm the proposal of East Suffolk County Council to build an adult training centre for the mentally sub-normal in Lowestoft during the financial year 1967–68; and whether he will give the starting date for this project.

Subject to agreement on a cost limit, my right hon. Friend hopes to be able to recommend loan sanction for this scheme during the financial year 1967–68.

asked the Minister of Health what is the estimated shortage of physics technicians in the National Health Service.

Hospitals were 13 per cent. below establishment on 30th September, 1965. Corresponding information for 1966 is not yet available.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary accept the view expressed to me at the end of last week by the senior technician at a large general hospital that much of the reason for the shortage is that the salary scales in the hospital service are so much behind the salary scales obtainable by people with similar qualifications outside? Has he any proposals for dealing with this?

We are always conscious that, over many years, there has been this difficulty of non-comparability to some extent as between employees in the public service and those in private employment. But there was an increase of 4¼ per cent. from 1st January this year. A revised grading structure and higher salaries were offered in the Whitley Council on 3rd June, but this had not been accepted by 20th July. We appreciate that the implications of the White Paper mean that there is disappointment, and as soon as this period is over we can, perhaps, look at the matter again.

asked the Minister of Health what is the estimated shortage of heart and lung machine technicians in the National Health Service.

There is no separate class of heart and lung machine technicians, and staffing figures are thus not separately identifiable, but I am not aware of a general recruitment difficulty.

asked the Minister of Health if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list, together with their cost, of the cuts to be made, as announced on 25th July of this year, in the proposed expenditure for 1967 in the different health and welfare services provided by local authorities.

asked the Minister of Health (1) if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT details, including cost, of the cuts to be made in the proposed expenditure for 1967 on workshops, social centres and hostels for the mentally ill as a result of the £3 million cut in proposed expenditure in 1967 on local authority health and welfare services, which were published on 25th July of this year;

(2) if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT details, including cost, of the cuts to be made in the proposed expenditure for 1967 on centres and homes for elderly, including the elderly mentally infirm, as a result of the £3 million cut in proposed expenditure in 1967 on local authority health and welfare services, which were published on 25th July of this year.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will give details of the cuts to be made in the proposed expenditure during 1967 in local authority health and welfare services for mothers and young children as a result of the cuts in expenditure announced on 25th July, 1966.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT details, including cost, of the cuts to be made in the proposed expenditure for 1967 on centres and homes for the physically handicapped as a result of the £3 million cut in proposed expenditure in 1967 on local authority health and welfare services, announced on 25th July of this year.

The necessary reduction in capital expenditure in 1967–68 will be secured by limiting the total value of loan sanctions issued to local health and welfare authorities during 1966–67. It is not possible at this stage to say for which individual projects issue of loan sanction will have to be deferred to 1967–68.

Has the Minister taken any steps to try to assess the cumulative effects of these cuts on the hospital services and in the deprivation of the people concerned? Will he give an assurance that where these cuts take place, for example, in the local authority services, the local authorities will not have to bear the blame for the reduction in services which they have to make as a result of the Minister's cuts?

It would be as well to keep a sense of proportion in this. I do not think that the hospital services will be adversely affected, and, despite these reductions, the amount of loan sanctions for health and welfare capital projects expected to be issued during 1966–67 is higher than that for any previous year.

Will the Minister issue instructions or a list of priorities to local authorities about which services should be cut back? Does not the whole thing make nonsense of the claims of the Government Front Bench that the social services are being exempted from the Draconian measures of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

No, Sir, it does not make nonsense at all. It is a very small reduction of less than 10 per cent. for the year in question. I have made clear that, in the issuing of loan sanctions, priority will, in general, be given to health centres, to mental health projects and to old people's homes the construction of which will lead to early closure of ex-public assistance institutions.

Are not these cuts very shortsighted? Does not the Minister agree that many of these projects involve comparatively modest capital expenditure and that, without this, the already over-burdened hospital service will find it still more difficult to give people the service they need?

Any reduction is, of course, unfortunate; but nevertheless this was necessary in the light of the economic situation at the time.

When the Minister makes his claim for the amount of loan sanction relative to previous years, does he make it in the context of real value or does he make any discount for the fall in the value of the £ in the last two years, which would mean imposing a cut upon a cut?

What I said would, I think, be equally true in real terms, but, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman will put a Question down in those terms, I shall be glad to answer it.

Will my right hon. Friend take it that many of us are very grateful to him for the way he has shielded the health and welfare services from the cuts, but will he impress upon his colleagues that what we are really suffering from is a tremendous backlog of lack of investment over many years?

I do not dissent from what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Minister of Health if he will state the average num- ber of patients allotted to general practitioners in the National Health Service in 1950, 1960, and at the latest convenient date in 1966.

The approximate average number of patients on the lists of doctors providing full general medical services in England and Wales was 2,500 in 1950, 2,287 in October 1960 and 2,412 in October 1965, the latest date for which this figure is available.

asked the Minister of Health what net increase he estimates in the number of doctors practising in the National Health Service in the next five years; and how many additional doctors he expects to qualify in each of the next ten years.

While estimates vary according to the assumptions made, I expect the number to increase by about 2,500. Output from medical schools over the next ten years will include about 21,000 British-based doctors; separate figures for each year are not available.

Is it not clear from the Answers which the Minister has given to this Question and Question No. 29, since the figures must be seen against the background of a rising population, that a serious crisis is looming ahead for the National Health Service unless the workload of existing doctors can be reduced, unless more doctors can be recruited, and unless conditions are created to dissuade them from emigrating? What positive proposals has he now to deal with this situation?

I do not know whether what the hon. Gentleman said was in the context of general practice, but I take it that it was. I certainly hope that the new contract recently agreed will reverse the recent downward trend in doctors. Nevertheless, here again we ought to be clear that the increase in the population is 10 per cent. in the relevant period and the number of general practitioners rose in the same period by 15 per cent. So the situation is not quite so desperate as the hon. Gentleman suggests. If the expansion of the medical schools had taken place a few years earlier, we should have been in a less difficult position today.

Is the Minister aware that the figures he has given do not represent the true picture in that they take no cognisance of the very sharp decline in the number of doctors employed whole-time in general practice as assistants? Is he aware of the study carried out by the Lancashire Executive Council taking into account the number of principals and assistants in general practice, which shows a very much sharper decline than the figures he has given?

I was asked for the figures regarding general practitioners, and that is generally taken to be those giving full medical services. There has been a reduction in the number of assistants, and I have never disguised from the House that I have felt considerable concern about this fall in the number of general practitioners. But I should like to wait for a few months to see the effect of the new contract before reaching any final conclusions about this. The hon. gentleman may find that it makes quite a difference.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will authorise doctors to make a charge for the issue of tranquilliser tablets issued under National Health Service prescriptions.

No, Sir.

Accepting that more and more people are bound to need tranquillisers under the present Administration, will not the Parliamentary Secretary agree that, as he has recently announced that the pill is to be a matter of charge by doctors, and as there is a great increase in the use of tranquillisers for people who are not really ill but who are made marginally ill because of the policies of the party opposite, it would be sensible to charge for these tablets?

I cannot follow how the pill can be regarded as analogous to tranquillisers. We have allowed doctors to charge for oral contraceptives where such contraceptives are considered to be necessary for social and not for medical purposes. As regards tranquillisers, we take the view that, whatever the illness of the patient, no charge should impede him or her from receiving treatment.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has any plans for extending home care schemes similar to that successfully operated by St. Mary's Hospital, Paddington.

No, Sir. Home care is primarily a function of the local health authority and general practitioner services, and my right hon. Friend would not therefore think it appropriate to press other hospital authorities to set up units of this kind.

Nevertheless, would my hon. Friend encourage this practice, particularly in areas where there is a shortage of beds, because it would enable the specialised nursing and technical facilities available to be concentrated on the most severely ill.

We consider that everything possible should be done to enable the sick child to be treated at home when-even a general practitioner decides that this is in the best interests of the patient.

asked the Minister of Health how long it was before normal supplies of nitrous oxide could be restored to hospitals in the South of England following the withdrawal on 6th September of all supplies issued from the Brentford works of the British Oxygen Company; and what alternative sources of supply are available in an emergency of this kind.

Production at Brentford was resumed within 24 hours, and the stocks held by hospitals had returned to their normal level within three weeks. Nitrous oxide is produced by the British Oxygen Company at one other factory in England, one in Scotland and one in Northern Ireland.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, does he not agree that it was a considerable shock to many people in this country that this happened? If no other sources of supply are available in the South of England, would it not make sense to hold special reserves of specially tested gas which would be ready for an emergency of this kind?

I do not think that that is necessary. The sequence of events which led to the incident was quite unprecedented. I am satisfied that the intensified inspection procedures now in force provide a satisfactory margin of safety.

May we assume that when a gas of this nature is about to be used it is tested first?

Yes, it was always tested, on a sampling basis, but there are now intensified inspection procedures which, I think, provide a satisfactory margin of safety.

asked the Minister of Health if he will give an assurance that every step has been taken to prevent a recurrence of anaesthetic death due to contamination in nitrous oxide cylinders; and what steps he is taking to restore public confidence in this anaesthetic agent which has been widely used by dental surgeons for 100 years.

Yes, Sir. I have already announced that I am satisfied that the intensified inspection procedures introduced by the firm give an adequate margin of safety. The British Oxygen Company has sent a detailed statement to all its customers explaining how this unprecedented incident occurred.

Since this incident did occur, is my right hon. Friend absolutely satisfied that incidents of this nature cannot occur in future? Are the tests foolproof?

Yes, Sir. I said that the sequence of events which resulted in this incident is most unlikely to recur. It was the first such incident in the course of 40 years' production of nitrous oxide in this country.

asked the Minister of Health how many hospitals at present allow unrestricted parental visits to child patients as recommended by the Platt Committee; and how many provide accommodation for mothers who wish to remain with their children who are seriously ill.

In April, 733 of the hospitals that admit children reported that they allowed unrestricted visiting by parents, and in March 1965 200 provided accommodation for parents.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer. Would he not agree that activities vary considerably from one area to another, and will he encourage the more conservative hospitals to follow the lead given by the more enlightened ones?

Yes, Sir. I am constantly doing this, and I have called for further reports showing the visiting position this month.

Can the Minister say how many hospitals do not provide this very valuable service to parents?

The figure I mentioned represents 71 per cent.—that is, if the hon. and learned Gentleman is speaking of unrestricted visiting and not accommodation for mothers—of all hospitals admitting children. In addition, a further 79 hospitals, while they retain fixed visiting hours, are allowing visiting for eight or more hours during the day, and a further 63 are restricting visiting on the day of operation. I have said that there should not be a general rule restricting visiting, even on the day of operation.

asked the Minister of Health what study he is making of the problems of junior doctors in hospitals.

I have asked hospital authorities to review local conditions of junior hospital doctors and, following a discussion with representatives of the profession, I have told them that I wish to undertake jointly with the profession as soon as they are ready a general review of matters affecting the work of junior hospital doctors.

In the establishment of future priorities, can we take it that the case of the junior doctor will have a high priority?

This is, shall we say, the next negotiation on my list, and I am hoping that it will start very soon.

In the discussions to which the Minister refers, would he include the mechanism for an apparent career structure for the young hospital doctor?

Yes, Sir. This is a factor which will undoubtedly loom very large in those discussions.

asked the Minister of Health if he will increase the remuneration of young hospital doctors in order to avert the danger that many of them may emigrate, to the detriment of the National Health Service.

A substantial increase in salary with effect from 1st October is due to be paid at the end of the year.

I am very glad to have that assurance, because I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would agree that, if it is a question of cash, the proper staffing of our hospitals should have a higher priority than the provision of free aspirins for people who can afford to pay for them.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, these increases were recommended by an independent review body, and I am glad to know that they will now take effect from 1st October on 31st December.

With regard to the staffing of hospitals, will my right hon. Friend urgently consider improving the conditions of nurses as well as doctors?

Order. This Question is about doctors.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will give an assurance that, upon the junior hospital doctors forming a trade union and affiliating to the Trades Union Congress, his Department will negotiate with them direct on remuneration and conditions of employment.

It is for the profession to propose who should represent them in negotiation.

If these doctors form a fully constituted trade union, has the Minister any right to deny them the right of representation? Is he aware of the tremendous amount of frustration there is among junior doctors in feeling that they are not fully represented?

I know that many junior doctors have expressed this view. I am very glad to acknowledge the importance of junior medical staff and the value of their services, but negotiations on conditions are inevitably the concern of medical staff of all grades and must, therefore, be conducted on a fully representative basis.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will now relax the rules restricting the access of general practitioners to their patients in hospital, in view of the present pressures on medical staffs in hospitals.

I do not know what rules the hon. Member has in mind. While general practitioners also are under pressure, I have made it clear that I look forward to still greater participation by them in hospital work through part-time appointments or through assumption of responsibility for the care of suitable patients in hospitial.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask him if he is aware that a number of general practitioners still feel aggrieved that they are excluded from treatment in wards? Will he bear in mind that in a number of smaller hospitals such as Beckenham the majority of medical care was given by general practitioners as late as 1950?

The hon. Gentleman may like to know that already between a quarter and a third of all general practitioners hold sessional hospital appointments and that further opportunities will undoubtedly become available for part-time work. If the hon. Gentleman has a particular question to ask about Beckenham, I hope that he will put it on the Notice Paper.

asked the Minister of Health what is the present shortfall in house officers, junior hospital medical officers, dentists and registrars, other than senior registrars, respectively.

There are no fixed establishments or allocations by which to measure shortfall. As I stated in reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 8th August, I recognise the need for more doctors and dentists in these grades, although numbers have risen.

Would not the Minister agree that, since nearly half of the present number required in hospitals is represented by doctors from overseas countries, there is a serious short-fall, especially when one cannot hope to keep these overseas doctors here indefinitely? Will the right hon. Gentleman take every step to see that there is a greater staffing of hospitals by English doctors?

Undoubtedly the only long-term solution is to train more British-based doctors. The output of the medical schools is rising, and it is expected to increase steadily in future years.

Is it not clear that there is a serious shortfall, since the Minister has written to hospital authorities saying that they might curtail their services to the patient? Is he aware of the acute dissatisfaction among clinical teachers about their present conditions and the adverse effect this will have on the training of more doctors? Is he making any representations about this to the Department of Education and Science?

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, this is a matter for the Department of Education and Science, and I trust, therefore, that he will table a Question to my right hon. Friend. I am glad to have this opportunity of explaining the misrepresentations that have taken place about the question of curtailing services. What was suggested in my letter to hospital authorities was that where, in certain hospitals, young doctors were working wholly excessive hours, it might be as well to consider the rationalisation of services by, perhaps, two hospitals close to one another, not necessarily keeping the casualty department of each open every day and throughout every weekend. That is all that was meant. There was no question of a curtailment of services to the public.

Is it not a fact that the situation arose as a result of the welling up of discontent among hospital doctors about their treatment in regard to their pay award? Will not the effect of this rationalisation, as the Minister puts it, or the closing of certain out-patient departments, put an additional burden on already overburdened general practitioners?

No, certainly not. I hope that it will rationalise the use of junior hospital doctors. It may be that this arose out of discontent over a pay settlement, but I do not think I need tell the hon. Gentleman that it also arose out of conditions existing for a very long time, conditions which are now being tackled for the first time.

Can the Minister give an assurance that there has been no curtailment of service in the past two or three weeks, or, say, in the past two months?

Only in the sense of rationalisation of services which I have mentioned. I made it perfectly clear that such rationalisation might mean a marginal inconvenience to patients in that they had to go a little further to get hospital treatment. This is surely better than their being treated in a nearby hospital by staff who are utterly exhausted by excessive hours.

asked the Minister of Health whether any specific responsibility exists for examining and testing new anaethetic equipment in a hospital, so as to make sure that it does what it is intended to do.

Equipment is normally installed and initially tested by the supplier. Acceptance and subsequent testing depend on the kind of apparatus and the organisation of the hospital concerned.

Has the hon. Gentleman read the evidence of the inquiry which took place recently into the very disturbing events in Edinburgh? Does he say that there is no fear of any such mishap occurring in England and Wales through lack of inspection because the engineer thinks that the hospital should carry out the inspection and the hospital thinks that the engineer should? Has no instruction been sent out to ask hospitals to be on their guard against this?

The incident in Scotland must be taken up with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. Piped gas supplies and not an anaesthetic apparatus were concerned in the incident which he mentioned. My Department does what it can to ensure that certain standards are applied in anaesthetic apparatus.

Would the Minister agree that the Tweed is no boundary in these matters? Will he take urgent steps to see that hospital organisations throughout Britain are made aware of the incident?

So far as Scotland is concerned, I can only repeat that I cannot answer on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I understand that there is a Question down to him today.

This is not good enough. Does the Minister now say that, although what has happened in Scotland has caused very grievous deaths, no action is being taken in England to ensure that this cannot happen? Will he issue a circular to all hospitals pointing out the danger and giving instructions that proper inspection is carried out?

I assure the hon. Lady that we are considering the full implication of the incident as it relates to the whole hospital service and that if we feel it necessary to issue a circular of that kind, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has done already, we shall do so.

asked the Minister of Health if he will give the total amount spent on advertising for each of the past three years by the four Metropolitan Regional Hospital Boards.

The amounts spent by the four Metropolitan Regional Hospital Boards in the three financial years up to 31st March, 1966, were £29,000, £31,000 and £39,000.

Will the Minister consider alternative ways of securing consultant staff for hospitals in place of the present rather costly method? Perhaps he will also do something about the amounts spent by hospital management committees?

I shall consider this, but I assure my hon. Friend that this is not limited to advertising for consultant staff. It includes small amounts for publicity for the blood transfusion service, for mass radiography and for other board staffs.

asked the Minister of Health what representations he received from the Junior Hospital Staff Group in connection with its application to be registered as an association.

None, Sir.

There having been no representations, did the Minister think it proper to intervene to try to ensure that this association was not given legal representation? Is this another example of the campaign of petty spite against the unfortunate young doctor?

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by intervention, unless he has been reading stories in the newspapers which have been officially denied. I take the view that the proposed title of the company, the British Junior Hospital Doctors Association Limited, could be misleading because membership is not to be limited to British doctors. This apart, I have no views on the registration of this association.

asked the Minister of Health whether he will ask authorities at teaching hospitals to ensure that, wherever possible, patients in those hospitals are advised before they are medically examined by students.

Teaching hospitals have been asked to explain their teaching activities in the leaflets they issue to patients.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that, while we realise the importance of these facilities for teaching hospitals not only in the field of teaching but also in the field of building up a good doctor-patient relationship, there is none the less great disquiet that there have been unfortunate incidents? Will he watch the matter closely, because it tends to undermine the trust and confidence that people have in the service?

Yes, I know that there have been cases in which disquiet has been expressed, and I have made my views known to the Teaching Hospitals Association. I am not aware of any teaching hospital which makes treatment conditional on the patient consenting to be used for teaching purposes if required, and I would certainly expect the treatment of any person who did not wish to co-operate and who required urgent treatment or special facilities to continue at the hospital in the ordinary way.

asked the Paymaster-General how many home information services he co-ordinates.

None, Sir.

Could the Paymaster-General explain the meaning of his reply? We are told that his job is to co-ordinate home information services. Was he, for example, responsible for the co-ordination of the remark on the tape today that the Whitehall view is that there is no security risk attached to the escape of Blake?

As far as I understand it, "None, Sir" means "None, Sir". As to what is on the tape, judging by the hon. Gentleman's inability to understand the nature of my duties and in view of the replies that he has already been given, the only assumption that I can make is that he cannot read.

What value is the right hon. Gentleman giving for the salary that he is being paid, and does he now consider himself redundant?

No, Sir. I am a little puzzled to know how that arises out of the original Question. The fact is that the duties of a Minister without Portfolio are exactly the same under this Administration as they were under previous ones. The point of the Question on the Order Paper has been fully answered on a number of occasions.

In view of the Answer given by my right hon. Friend, may we have his assurance that there is no likelihood of any redundancies in his Department in the near future?

I could not answer that question either.

asked the Minister of Labour what steps he is taking, in consultation with Plymouth City Council, to establish a sheltered workshop to serve the city's needs; and what evidence he has as to the optimum size for any such workshop.

Our Department is in close touch with the council about its plans for a sheltered workshop. These have been given general approval, and we shall be prepared to make financial assistance available. I do not think it is possible to lay down an optimum size for such a workshop.

Is my hon. Friend aware that her reply will be warmly welcomed? There is a long felt need for a sheltered workshop in the city.

asked the Minister of Labour how many trade unions have notified him in the past 18 months that they are unable to secure recognition from employers.

Thirty-two.

Is it not disgraceful that trade unions cannot get basic recognition from the employers? Would not my right hon. Friend agree it should be one of the aims of the Government in its industrial policy to make sure that recognition is forthcoming?

As my hon. Friend knows, a mass of information and evidence has been given to the Royal Commission on the matter, and I do not think that we can do any better than await its conclusions.

asked the Minister of Labour if he is satisfied that adequate consultation with employees and their representatives took place before the notice of dismissal announced by the British Motor Corporation in Oxford on 28th September; and what steps he is taking to ensure that adequate consultation takes place on such matters in similar cases in the future.

I understand that eight weeks before discharges were due information about the Corporation's plans was given centrally to officers of the unions concerned, following which advance information about the reductions to be made in individual factories was given to shop stewards and suggestions as to the method of making the reductions discussed. The Chairman of B.M.C. also had a meeting to discuss the redundancies with shop stewards from the factories concerned. My Department constantly urges on employers the need for adequate consultation in such cases.

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that there is no decision by an employer on which it is more important to have effective consultation with the employees than one which affects their whole future livelihood and employment? Does he not agree that merely to inform employees what a decision is, sometimes only a few days before the decision has taken place, without any effective general warning about a reconsideration of the decision, does not represent consultation in any reasonable sense of the word?

As my hon. Friend knows, my officers and I are continually emphasising to employers the desirability, indeed the necessity, of as much long-term notice, and indeed consultation, as is possible. I would, however, draw his attention to what I said. The employers discussed this with the central union offices eight weeks before.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there was no real consultation at the meeting that he mentioned but only the provision of information? Does it not bring us back to the point made by my hon. Friend, that we ought to be pressing the B.M.C. to realise that good and courteous information is not a substitute for real consultation before decisions are made?

I would entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Whether it be fortunate or unfortunate, I have no power or authority to lay down the exact rules by which consultation shall take place. However, I would certainly emphasise what my hon. Friend said; consultation ought to be consultation.

asked the Minister of Labour how many vacant places are available in training centres in the Oxford area at the present time.

There are no Government training centres in the Oxford area.

Does my right hon. Friend not agree that, if training centres are to perform the function that they are supposed to perform, it is essential that they should be available in places where they are likely to be needed? Is he aware that, according to my information, nearly 60 people in the Oxford area have applied for places at training centres, and so far only two have been told that they may have a chance in a place about 30 miles away in four of five weeks' time?

I must point out to my hon. Friend that it is not a feasible proposition to create a Government training centre in every area, especially when we are dealing with an immediate situation that I hope will not continue too long. I would also remind him that he mentioned the number of 60, which against the background of the total number of redundancies has not yet revealed the great desire of the majority of workers to take up training, and we are finding this throughout the country.

asked the Minister of Labour, in view of the Government's policy of providing for 460,000 unemployed, and the Prime Minister's warning that this figure might rise to 2 million, if he will now cease issuing work permits for immigrants to come to this country seeking jobs; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my right hon. Friend's reply on 8th August.

As the Government's deliberately created unemployment of 1 million is likely to arise during this winter, is it not crazy——

The Conservative Government deliberately created it in 1963.

It just happened.

—we did not regard it as a laughing matter either—to allow, as the figures issued today show, 60,000 immigrants to come into the country in September to flood the market?

They are not seeking work.

Will not the hon. Lady look at the problem again and safeguard the rights of British workers in our own home market?

The hon. Gentleman is speculating a little wildly with figures. The 60,000 were not seeking work. Of those seeking work, only two groups are admitted. One group is for professions in which there is extremely high employment, such as doctors and nurses, and the other group is persons for whom employers have asked on the ground that the jobs are available for them. If there is a job which can be filled by a British citizen, it is most unlikely that an employer would ask for one of these people.

Can my hon. Friend say on how many occasions under Tory Administrations the number of unemployed exceeded 400,000?

In 1963, 1962, 1959 and 1958, the national unemployment figure was well above what is is today.

asked the Minister of Labour what proposals he has for revising the scales of his Department's resettlement transfer allowances.

None, Sir. As I informed my hon. Friend on 16th May, these allowances were considerably improved in February 1965.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a most disappointing reply? If we are serious about redeploying manpower, we must pay much higher allowances. Is my hon. Friend aware that the allowances are significantly below those paid in the Common Market countries and much inferior to those paid by the National Coal Board in its transfer scheme? Will she reconsider her reply?

We will certainly examine this, together with all policies con- cerning redeployment. But I would remind my hon. Friend that, in addition to the improvements introduced in February, 1965, there are provisions for such expenses as the cost of household removal, free fares for the man and his dependants, and allowances for those who have difficulty in selling their houses in the place from which they come.

asked the Minister of Labour how many of his Department's training centres are at present in operation; how many training places are available; what is the average time taken to obtain entry; and if he will make a statement on proposals for future deployment.

There are 32 Government training centres in operation with 6,200 training places. Under existing expansion plans there will be 38 centres next year with some 8,000 training places. It is not possible to give a meaningful average time for entry into training as this varies from trade to trade and from centre to centre. We are considering plans for further expansion.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, whilst this is a welcome improvement upon anything achieved by the Conservative Government, we still want to see much greater progress in the provision of Government training centres? Will she consider the urgency of establishing centres within factories, perhaps with facilities used at present for training apprentices, in the present very difficult time?

I have every sympathy on this matter, but I ask my hon. Friend to await the forthcoming debate.

asked the Minister of Labour if, in view of the fact that Bevercotes Colliery, on which £18 million has been spent, is still not working after a year's delay, and that the recent decision not to work it was decided by men from nearby Thoresby Pit which employs 1,800 ment, at a meeting attended by only 12 men of whom six voted for the strike, four voted against, and two abstained, he will now institute an inquiry.

asked the Minister of Labour how long miners at Bevercotes Colliery have been on strike; and on what date he was notified that the colliery was ready to employ miners on a full production basis.

I much regret that production has not yet started. I understand that the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers are meeting tomorrow to discuss the position. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Power and I are continuing to watch the situation closely, but I do not think it would help matters if I intervened at present.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this pit has stood idle for a year; yet still he says that he cannot intervene? Altogether, £18 million of taxpayers' money has been put into the pit, which has the finest machinery in the world; but it is not being worked.

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is not quite accurate, in the sense that the pit could not have started anyhow. According to my information, it is doubtful whether, even if both sides arrive at an agreement tomorrow, they would be able to start the pit in production for six to eight weeks. I repeat that this is not the moment for me to intervene.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his favourable reply. Is he aware that miners in my constituency agree that, because of the delicate nature of tomorrow's negotiations, to call one side foolish, stupid and Luddite only hardens the case?

I agree. That is why I have emphasised that I do not wish to say anything about intervening at this stage.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this colliery is in my constituency? I hope that he will allow me to ask whether the colliery itself is ready for working at present. I gathered from his previous reply that, even if agreement were reached tomorrow, the pit could not start work immediately.

There have been conflicting stories about this, but my information is that, for one reason or another—it may be that machinery still required has not been put in because of the failure to agree—the pit could not operate for six to 12 weeks. I repeat, therefore, that I should like first to know what happens tomorrow.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is something radically wrong here? If coal is to have a future in our fuel economy, we must make the most of these very large investments in modern methods.

There is no difference between us on that, but I wish the hon. Gentleman would sometimes understand that there are real human problems involving miners living in the same village and doing the same work but getting different pay.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Question put by the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) is misleading? The colliery is not in operation because all the collieries in the Nottinghamshire area took a ballot and unfortunately—I regret the decision—refused to accept the hard-won national agreement made by the National Coal Board and the N.U.M.?

asked the Minister of Labour what estimate he has made of the impact of the wages standstill on productivity agreements in industry.

One of the features of the standstill policy which the Government have especially regretted has been the temporary hold-up of a number of productivity agreements some of which included provisions of unquestioned value. I do not think, however, that there has been any permanent setback, and I am quite sure that it was essential to the success of the initial phase of the standstill policy as a whole that it should be operated with no exceptions.

That is all very fine, but has the Minister's attention been drawn to a recent case of a firm where a productivity agreement involving the elimination of over-manning of 25 per cent. in one department had to be cancelled because the firm felt obliged to abandon the productivity wage award under the terms of the "freeze"? Is not this precisely what was bound to happen? What sort of contribution does this make to the solution of our underlying problems?

I am sorry, but I did not quite catch the hon. Gentleman's last three sentences; I gathered its intent, however. It is true—and I have said that I regret it—that it was necessary for six months to interfere with real productivity agreements. But I have my doubts about many of them. I have read about the one the hon. Gentleman mentions in the Press, and inquiries are now being made.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree to continue productivity agreements already partially implemented in particular factories, for otherwise grave injustice results as between one department and another? Should not such agreements go ahead where success is proved beyond doubt?

I have given close attention to each and every productivity agreement brought to my notice, but the dilemma faced by the Government on 20th July was that between 6 million and 7 million workers had forward commitments, few of them on a productivity bargaining basis. It was extremely difficult to ask that productivity agreements should go forward while others were held back. But productivity bargaining of the right kind which really causes productivity increases must have priority of treatment.

asked the Minister of Labour what plans he has for a rapid expansion of training and retraining facilities for workers made redundant over the next 12 months, especially in regions like Scotland.

Government training centres are already expanding rapidly. By the end of next year there will be 38 centres, including eight in Scotland. Past experience of redundancies indicates that comparatively few of the workers affected are likely to want and to be suitable for this type of training. We are having discussions with the training boards about assisting through their machinery the retraining of workers in industry.

Does not the first part of that reply mean that one of the reasons why the Government are not extending the provision of these facilities is that there is no great demand for them? Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a widespread feeling in Scotland that the present training facilities for about 2,000 individuals are grossly inadequate in view of the numbers unemployed and crying out for retraining? Will she reconsider the position urgently?

I would not like my hon. Friend to think that that was the conclusion to draw from my reply. The number of training centres in Scotland has leaped from one in 1963 to eight in 1966. That does not mean that the Government do not appreciate that much more needs to be done.

asked the Minister of Labour how many applications for arbitration under the 1919 Industrial Courts Act have been made since July; and what action he proposes to take.

I have received 11 applications since 20th July. One application was withdrawn, but the remainder have been referred, or are being referred, to the Industrial Court or to single arbitrators. Further applications for arbitration will be dealt with in the usual manner.

Can the right hon. Gentleman now improve on the reply that he gave to me last November, when I asked which decision would stand if an arbitration award was in conflict with the Prices and Incomes Board or—as now—in conflict with Part IV of the Act?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, awards under the Industrial Courts Act are a joint agreement recording the judgment of considerations set out in the White Paper on the Prices and Incomes Standstill.

asked the Minister of Labour if he will now seek to repeal Part II of the Industrial Courts Act 1919.

No, Sir.

Is it now sensible to leave on the Statute Book a provision by which both parties can ask the Minister for arbitration when whatever award is given at the end of that arbitration will be turned down under Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act?

The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I that much of the work of the Court is not concerned with prices and incomes. The Court also deals with demarcation disputes and dismissal procedures and a host of other things.