asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in the light of the Swann Committee Report, he will review the scale of support for post-graduate training leading primarily to academic research, and consider alternative kinds of post-graduate awards aimed at widening the scientific and technological outlook, those involving closer liaison between universities and industry in the form of joint appointments, those of an inter-disciplinary nature relevant to industry, and those primarily for potential school teachers, involving scope for research.

Yes, Sir. Even before the Swann Committee had produced its valuable Report, the Science Research Council had already introduced its industrial studentships and science and industry awards. The Council's policy on post-graduate training, with particular reference to closer collaboration between universities and industry, is now being reviewed by a Working Party under Lord Halsbury. Meawhile I am asking all the research councils for their views on the Swann Report.

Does my right hon. Friend's Answer mean that we really do have an assurance that there will be sustained progress chasing on this valuable Report and that it will not be relegated to some musty file?

I can give that assurance absolutely. This is a subject to which a number of recent Reports have drawn attention—the Arthur Report, the Bosworth Report, as well as the Swann Report, and I can give an absolute assurance that some parts of the Report have already been anticipated by the Science Research Council and that there will be very consistent progress chasing indeed.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in the light of the first annual report of the Science Research Council, he will introduce a five-year rolling plan for science research finance, with the assurance of money to cover the first three years, after an annual declaration of intent.

In changing economic circumstances there can never be an absolute assurance of funds for a long period ahead, but I hope that, with the help of the Council for Scientific Policy, it may soon be possible to reach decisions on allocations for a three year period.

Would the Secretary of State agree that industry without research is rather like a cut flower without its roots, and that this constitutes a strong argument for research going to areas like Livingston New Town, where there is a 9·2 per cent. unemployment rate?

I am not myself a horticulturist and I would not like to comment on the particular point about Livingston; but I think I agree with what is implied, in terms of general policy, by my hon. Friend's Question.

Without going too far into metaphor, would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that an approach on the lines of this question would command pretty general assent in the House? Is it not absurd to pretend to be able to forecast demand for knitwear in 1970 while not having a rolling plan of this kind for scientific research expenditure?

Knitwear must be a question for one of my right hon. Friends, but I am not sure which one. As to the rolling plan, as I said in my original Answer, I hope we shall be able to get some form of three year look at any rate. I must say, as the right hon. Gentleman referred to the National Plan, this will be much better than anything done by the Tory Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many local education authorities with appreciable numbers of non-English speaking immigrants within their boundaries have refused to implement the recommendation of Circular 7/65.

Detailed information is not available, but reports suggest that the great majority of local education authorities are acting upon the recommendations of the circular.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in Birmingham, one of the cities not implementing the circular, individual headmasters are choosing to exclude non-English-speaking children unilaterally? How long is this potentially dangerous situation going to continue?

As my hon. Friend would expect, I am well aware of what is happening in Birmingham. I agree with him about the difficulties and sympathise very much with the headmasters concerned. I would only add that in my view authorities which pursue policies which might inevitably lead to segregated schools bear a very heavy responsibility indeed.

Will the Minister discourage local education authorities from applying this circular at the level of primary schools, since dispersal of that age group is likely to lead to consequences of a disadvantageous nature?

In the case of primary schools, dispersal usually means a policy which is effected at the moment of entry into the school. It rather suggests to parents that they take their children to school A rather than school B. It does not usually mean transportation. I think it is very important to get that right. But even in primary schools there is still good evidence to show that to have more than 30 per cent. of immigrants in such schools has educational difficulties which we want to avoid.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to bring forward legislation to remove from local education authorities their powers to determine the pattern of secondary education in their areas.

I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) on 3rd November.

If this idea is not in the Government's mind, why was it in the mouth of the Minister of State at Croydon on 20th October? Does this mean that it is yet another example of government by threat and intimidation?

What it means is that this was another example of the rather sensational methods of reporting of that particular newspaper.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the feelings of many parents in areas such as Croydon, where the local council is refusing to go comprehensive? Will he bear this point in mind in his consideration of this problem?

There has been no change of any kind in Government policy on this. I have said consistently that the great majority of authorities are cooperating wholeheartedly with the Government's policy. There is a tiny minority of authorities which is not, and I believe that this tiny minority of authorities will find themselves subject to the general force of public opinion. Supposing I were wrong, and supposing any of this considerable number of authorities were to reject what is now the clear national will on this subject, any Government would reserve the right to legislate. However, I regard this question as entirely hypothetical, in view of the way the comprehensive reorganisation policy is going over the country as a whole.

In this context, how does the right hon. Gentleman regard his Circulars 10/65 and 10/66? Does he regard them as being permissive or as directives? What does he intend to do with local education authorities which continue to support schemes for secondary reorganisation of which he would not finally approve?

In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, the hon. Member, who has great experience of these matters, will know that the language of Circulars 10/65 and 10/66 was identical with the language which has been used in circulars over many years, even decades, past. In answer to the second part of the supplemenetary question, if an authority submits a scheme which does not appear to carry out the intentions of the circular, I shall say that that scheme is not acceptable under the terms of the circular.

Did not the Minister of State say in his speech at Croydon that the Government's policy is a national policy and that the L.E.A.s are only their agents? Is not that statement clearly out of accord with both the letter and the spirit of the 1944 Act which, after all, assigned specific rights, duties and powers to local authorities, irrespective of political majorities in the House of Commons?

Those remarks, put like that, are rather curious coming from the representative of a Government who frequently in practice prevented local authorities from doing what they wanted in this matter. I read the text of my hon. Friend's speech with great care after the highly misleading headline which appeared. There was nothing in the speech which would go counter to the tradition of co-operation between central and local Government which has been built up in this country for many years.

Will the Secretary of State withdraw his rather absurd remark about the national will? This is surely a matter for local option. If it be the desire of the Government, as it should be, to help comprehensive schools, will he look into the hold-up of a new comprehensive school in Stafford—which meets the local general will—because he is holding things up in the most ludicrous fashion?

I am delighted to hear what the right hon. Gentleman says about Stafford, and I hope that he will seek to convert his right hon. Friend the Mem- ber for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter). I used the phrase "national will" because on this subject, taking either election results or the results of public opinion polls, there is a clear national majority against segregation at 11-plus.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will issue a circular to discourage local education authorities from modifying or changing the method of the 11-plus, while still retaining this method of secondary selection, in view of Circular 10/65.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some local education authorities, mainly Tory-controlled ones, are changing or modifying the 11-plus procedure but still retaining this form of selection at 11? Will he warn these local education authorities that this sort of trick will not work?

I am not personally too much concerned with what exact procedures are used for 11-plus selection during the interim period while it still survives. What I am much more concerned with is eliminating it as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he proposes to announce his decision on the scheme for comprehensive education submitted by the City and County of Kingston-upon-Hull Education Committee.

At the end of this month.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in examination and approval or otherwise of the scheme for secondary reorganisation submitted by the Redbridge Borough Council.

My right hon. Friend is not yet ready to make a decision on the Redbridge authority's proposals. I am meeting representatives of the authority on the matter on 6th December.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer, but is he aware of the growing anxiety in the borough, particularly among parents who are directly worried about this problem? Could he do something to expedite the procedure?

My right hon. Friend will take account of all expressions of opinion from the locality, and at the meeting which I propose to have on 6th December with representatives of the authority I shall discuss all aspects of this subject.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the enforcement of his compulsory "comprehensivisation" of secondary education in Ilford is ruining a perfectly workable system at great expense and no benefit to anybody, and that it would have been far better to accept the original plans of the borough?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that the fact that I am to meet representatives of the authority to discuss it is in itself a refutation of the suggestion of enforcing or imposing something on the authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has received from Gloucestershire Education Committee concerning the new selection procedure for secondary education; and whether he is satisfied that the 11-plus examination is not being replaced by a similar or identical selection arrangement under another name.

My right hon. Friend has received a reorganisation plan under Circular 10/65 from the Gloucestershire authority, but he cannot comment on it until he has had more time to study it.

I thank my hon. Friend. Will he confirm that he will not allow a scheme to go forward that does not abolish the 11-plus examination in Gloucestershire?

I repeat what my right hon. Friend has already said today. He will not be prepared to give approval to any plans which retain selection at 11-plus.

Is it not the case that the Gloucestershire authority for many years has been abolishing the 11-plus and introducing comprehensive education in those areas where it makes educational sense? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if pressure is put on Gloucestershire, of all authorities, by the Government, their policy will be seen to be as dogmatic as their strongest opponents fear?

I gladly seize this opportunity to acknowledge that Gloucestershire is moving steadily towards comprehensive education throughout the county and that, in terms of geography, about one-third of the county is already served by fully comprehensive 11–18 schools. I am encouraged to feel that its initiative will carry it further to full implementation of the principle.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is to happen to Her Majesty's Inspectors with special responsibility for meals in maintained schools, in the light of Circular 20/66; and what is the estimated additional cost of the professional catering experts.

They are being assigned to other necessary duties within H.M. Inspectorate. The cost to the Department of employing catering advisers will be less than the former arrangement.

Does not the Minister of State agree that the cost of the subsidy for school meals will be increased as a result of this circular? In any case, why was it felt necessary to supersede H.M. Inspectorate which has done the work so well in recent years?

The change was made because, in the light of experience, we feel that it is the most effective way of catering for the need. The educational aspects of school meals will continue to be over-sighted by general inspectors.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now reconsider his decision not to receive a delegation from the Worcester Park and Stoneleigh Parents' Association with regard to the proposed closure of Stoneleigh County Secondary School.

No, Sir.

Will the Minister of State reconsider this decision, in view of the very strong feelings which are held by many parents living in this area and in view of his own admission that there may well be a great deal of background to this decision of which his Department is unaware?

I am well aware that there is local opposition to the Surrey authority's proposal in this respect. We have received 30 letters from parents and a petition. Each of these is being carefully considered, and it is my right hon. Friend's view that a deputation would not be able to say anything which has not already been said in writing and which will be studied, together with the authority's statement and comments, with the greatest care.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I shall attempt to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what discussions have taken place with a view to instructing teachers to recognise signs of drug addiction in schoolchildren and to ensure swift and effective treatment for them.

None directly, as this is a matter for the local education authorities and the schools. But my right hon. Friend proposes to offer advice on the general subject in a forthcoming revised edition of the Department's pamphlet "Health Education".

Will my hon. Friend give this matter his utmost support, because a situation is developing in which schoolchildren of 11 and 12 are now experimenting with drugs of all kinds? This is a very serious situation.

Indeed we are aware of the growingproblem, although I think we ought to keep it in proportion. The figures for under-20s provided by the Home Office show that the number of drug addicts in 1960 was I and 145 in 1965. My hon. Friend will be glad to know that authorities where this is a problem are giving detailed advice to teachers upon drug addiction.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what research is being carried out by his Department into the need for nursery education for children aged three to five years.

This is one of the matters which the Central Advisory Councils for Education has been examining as part of its study of primary education generally.

Can we expect a report from the Department in the near future? Does not my hon. Friend accept that when a building is being erected it is essential to get the foundations right, otherwise it is necessary to spend a lot of money on getting the superstructure repaired, which is what we are doing at the moment?

Generally we accept that nursery education on a part-time basis is beneficial for children below the age of five. The report of the Plowden Council will be published in January, and my right hon. Friend will study the whole question of nursery education in the light of the recommendations contained therein.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to implement the recommendations of the Working Party on the Government of Colleges of Education; and if he will make a statement.

I confirm once again my warm support for the recommendations of the Study Group, and I can now tell the House that the organisations concerned have endorsed its general conclusions, with some reservations on points of detail. I am now considering both the terms of a circular which I shall issue for guidance and also the question of possible legislation. Meanwhile, I hope that pending the issue of a circular all the authorities concerned will consider most carefully (as many of them are already doing) how best to give effect to the Report.

Does that answer mean that the local authority associations concerned, especially the A.M.C. and the C.C.A., have sent back favourable observations in reply to the right hon. Gentleman's inquiry? Is he aware that, if he wishes to bring in enabling legislation on this highly important topic, he can count on co-operation from this side of the House?

The answer to the first part of the question is that the local authority associations welcome the general spirit and purpose of the report, although making recommendations on points of detail. I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for what he said in the second part of the question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to introduce a superannuation scheme for part-time teachers.

The Working Party which has been examining this question has produced an interim report suggesting that a scheme might be introduced in April 1967. My right hon. Friend has sought the views of the appropriate associations on this report, and shall be guided as to the next steps by their replies and by their comments on draft regulations which he will send them as soon as practicable.

In the time-honoured phrase, is the Minister of State aware that it is really time we had action on this? In view of the anxieties, which are perhaps in some way exaggerated, about the raising of the school-leaving age, is it not highly important that at present we should do everything possible to attract part-time teachers into the service?

I do not dissent in the slightest degree from what the right hon. Gentleman has said as to the urgency of doing something in this connection. The working party is giving further consideration to the detailed development of the scheme and to its possible application to other teachers. The working out of the detailed scheme presents some complications, but it is being proceeded with with all possible speed.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has for replacing the present system of student grants by one of loans.

None, Sir.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that neither now nor in the future will he seek to replace the system of grants by one of loans? Does he appreciate the very real concern in the student world on this matter?

There is a good deal of concern reflecting the point of view expressed by the hon. Gentleman, although, to be fair, one would have to say that there was also a considerable volume of public opinion that some element of loan in the total system would be desirable in view of the growing volume of student support. I can only reiterate what I have said, that I have no present intention of replacing grants by loans. Indeed, if one is talking in terms of "replacing", I cannot imagine that any Government would ever consider replacement, though I think that it is unrealistic to imagine that the question of a loan element can be kept out of at least general public discussion on these matters.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that the principle of grants to students is now firmly embedded and it has made a massive contribution to education generally in Britain? Will he give an assurance that it will in no way be destroyed, but, on the contrary, he will look at it again to see whether it can be improved?

It is true that the grant system has made a great contribution to the expansion of further education. Nevertheless, we must face the fact that the total volume of grant support is now a very considerable part of the total education budget, and any Government must keep this under review the whole time. But, having said that, I reiterate that I have no present intention of replacing grants by loans.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he will announce proposals for increased maintenance allowances for sixth-form pupils.

This is a matter for the discretion of local education authorities.

In view of the resolution on this matter accepted by the right hon. Lady the Joint Under-Secretary of State at his own party conference, does not the Minister of State feel bound to take some rather more positive step in this direction?

We have no present plans for advising local authorities on the level of allowances which they should pay. Our latest information does not suggest that there is any need to offer them advice in this connection, and we are satisfied with the exercise of their discretion.

Will my hon. Friend accept that it takes precisely as much to keep a 16-year-old as it does to keep an 18-year-old and that, therefore, there are many unfortunate young people who are under-privileged educationally today, to the detriment of the State? Will he urge local authorities to improve their grant system in this respect?

It is fair to add that the latest information available, which relates to May, 1964, showed that the great majority of local education authorities were paying allowances at rates higher than those recommended by the Departmental Working Party in 1957, when it was then a matter subject to departmental approval. In fact, the then Minister approved rates lower than those recommended by the working party.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will increase the grant to the Workers' Educational Association for teaching expenses from 75 per cent. to 90 per cent.

No, Sir.,

Is my hon. Friend aware that in recent years there has been a considerable increase in the demand for adult education and that the W.E.A., because of financial problems, is having difficulty in expanding its activities to meet this demand? Will he reconsider his answer?

I am aware that the W.E.A. wants this increase in order to undertake a big expansion of its work. However, other responsible bodies would, no doubt, wish to undertake a similar expansion if funds were available. I regret very much that I cannot see any prospect in the near future of finding funds for a substantial increase in adult education in view of the claims of other sectors of the education service. I should add that there is some reason to doubt that suitable staff would be found for a sudden expansion in face of competition from other forms of higher education.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the policy of his Department with regard to the provisions of medium-size and small computers specifically for training purposes.

Proposals for computer installations are considered by the Computer Board in the case of universities, and by local education authorities, subject to the sanction of my Department, in the case of other higher education establishments. The need for access by students as well as research and other needs is borne in mind in considering applications, but it would normally be uneconomic to provide computers solely for training purposes.

Is there not an acute shortage of young people trained in computer skills, and would not relatively small expenditure on computers designed specifically for teaching purposes greatly help to overcome the shortage?

I have some sympathy with what my hon. Friend says in the first part of his supplementary question, but this is a field in which equipment is extremely expensive. So far as one can make sure that machines serve more than one purpose, it seems to me essential to do so, but we certainly try to bear his purpose in mind.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the expert advice of computer manufacturers is that these small computers are a waste of money because their educational value can be so quickly exhausted and is far too little for the amount of money required, and that the educational purpose is served best by making use of much more complicated machines, which can only be done collectively?

I think that that reflects the bias of our expenditure in the education system as a whole.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received concerning the effect of the Government's economic policy on the payment of overtime to lecturers in institutes of further education; and what reply he has sent.

I cannot trace any.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that, despite the recent circular, considerable concern is felt by teachers in further education because the Government's present policy is being used as an excuse for increasing the work load, and this is leading to some lack of cooperation in other plans, for example, regarding education in industry?

All I can say is that after my hon. Friend put his Question down we searched our files and could find no representations on this subject. If he would care to bring to our attention any goings-on which he thinks are wrong or scandalous, we shall gladly give them attention.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what experiments are being conducted by his Department in educating mentally handicapped children.

The Department is supporting a number of relevant research projects, which are included in the list given in the OFFICIAL REPORT of 17th February, 1966.

I thank my hon. Friend for the helpful attitude of his Department, but is he aware of the growing feeling in this sector of education that a great deal more can be done for these children educationally than was considered possible some years ago?

I accept that view, and my hon. Friend can have my assurance that I am personally concerned to see that all effective measures of research are undertaken. I have been laying plans to see a number of such projects to judge their results.

Is similar action being taken in respect of spastic children, who, on the whole, do not seem to receive the same help as the mentally handicapped?

Any project put to us for research in this regard will be most carefully and sympathetically considered.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will now seek power to provide grants for educational and recreational projects located in Scotland but organised by English and Welsh schools.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend on 28th July.

Is my hon. Friend aware that great pressure has been put not only on his Department but on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland on this issue? This has been going on for two years. Can we expect some early legislation?

We are aware of the continued pressure because we are at the receiving end, but I cannot offer the prospect of early legislation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, from the point of view of a project well known to many hon. Members on both sides of the House, his answer is very unsatisfactory? Some of us may try to seek an opportunity for filling in this very small hole in our legislation on a matter which could easily be put right.

We have considerable sympathy for the aims here, but, having looked at the legal difficulties, I am not sure that it can be dealt with as simply as the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to standardise the conditions of service for members of the teaching profession.

No, Sir. Recommendations made jointly by representatives of the teachers and their employers are already widely adopted in the maintained sector.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, even in simple things like standing for Parliament, some teachers find that they can get leave of absence with full pay while others get nothing? Is he further aware that the whole of the teaching profession would welcome any inquiry which would lead to the removal of the situation in which teachers are equal in the eyes of the Department of Education and Science, but in the eyes of the local authorities some are more equal than others?

I am surprised that my hon. Friend suggests that it is simple to stand for election to Parliament. I am aware that certain teachers in different sectors of education perform similar work and there may be a certain superficial appeal behind my hon. Friend's remarks. But there are many wide variations. The joint recommendations covered conditions of travel, sick pay, maternity leave for married women and questions of that kind. It has not been the practice, except for pensions and salaries, for the Government to interfere with the employers' rights to determine the teachers' conditions of service.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the latest estimate of the amount spent in a year out of public funds on school milk and meals.

In England and Wales in 1966–67, £81 million for school meals and £14 million for school milk.

As the hon. Gentleman says that he keeps this question under constant review, has he yet any proposals to make whereby the cost of this to public funds can be somewhat reduced in view of the other competing claims in education?

I cannot go further than what was said in reply to a Question from the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) on 4th August last—that this matter is kept under continuous review but no immediate change is proposed.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there would be the strongest possible opposition from this side of the House to any attempt to lower basic nutritional standards by removing subsidies on school meals and school milk?

I note what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the course for training local government councillors which is running at the Luton College of Technology; and if he will encourage other colleges to provide similar courses.

I was interested to hear of this course and should welcome the provision of similar courses where the demand exists and the college is equipped to respond to it.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that if democracy is to have any meaning we must, in the increasing complexity of local and national Government, be able to train people who can meet officials on equal terms? Does not he also agree that this type of course would play a vital part in such training?

I have been too long in local government not to appreciate the force of those remarks, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that the Secretary of State has no power to require local education authorities and colleges to mount particular courses. But I hope that my reply to these questions today will provide encouragement of the kind my hon. Friend desires.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consideration he has given to the scheme for the proposed Bristol Polytechnic: what site is being proposed; and when building will commence.

I shall not be in a position to invite local education authorities to submit schemes for establishing polytechnics until I have had the advice of all the regional advisory councils.

Can my right hon. Friend not do something to hasten this matter? We in Bristol are very conscious of the need for expanding the polytechnic type of education which is at present so lacking.

I hope to have had the advice of all regional advisory councils by the end of the month. When I have it, I shall hope to announce the preliminary list of polytechnics as soon as possible. The Bristol scheme has been welcomed both locally and in the region as a whole, and, as my hon. Friend knows, some informal discussions have already taken place.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made towards rectifying the anomalies arising out of the Teachers' Superannuation Regulations which were referred to by the hon. Member for South-West Hertfordshire in the debate on 19th November, 1965.

My right hon. Friend is examining these alleged anomalies in preparing draft teachers' superannuation regulations about which, as the Act requires, he hopes shortly to consult representatives of local education authorities and teachers.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that nearly a year has passed since he made more sympathetic noises than those towards this reform? I do not like the use of the word "alleged". These are anomalies and their removal would give great satisfaction to the teaching profession.

The Working Party which has been examining this question has suggested in an interim report that a scheme might be introduced in April, 1967. I am aware that the existing provisions represent certain anomalies and some considerable degree of dissatisfaction, but I think that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it necessarily involves some expenditure of time in consulting all the interests which are concerned."

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many village schools have been closed in Wiltshire since October 1964.

Seven.

Is the Minister of State aware that these closures arouse very strong local feeling? Will he undertake that such feeling will be taken into account before any decisions are taken?

All proposals by local education authorities to close schools require the approval of the Secretary of State under Section 13(4) of the Education Act, 1944, following public notice of the proposals and an opportunity for the lodging of objections. Before giving a decision my right hon. Friend considers all relevant factors that are proper to be considered in this context.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he proposes to take to prevent the export of national treasures of historic interest of a monetary value of less than £2,000.

Machinery already in existence provides adequate safeguards for items of national importance as defined by the Waverley Committee.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that we have this arbitrary financial line? How does she propose to prevent the break up of collections of national interest and their export as individual items falling well below the limit? Will she look seriously at this matter again?

That does not arise because £2,000 in present purchasing terms is less than the original £1,000 of the Waverley Recommendations and many safeguards have been built in.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the recent scandal in which an important public body, the Royal College of Surgeons, sold two important pictures by Joseph Wright to an American purchaser by private treaty without asking whether any British gallery required them and that this was followed by the Reviewing Committee permitting the export of the pictures on the irrelevant and indefensible grounds that there are two similar pictures in private collections? Will she do something to prevent that sort of thing recurring?

My right hon. Friend has brought up a rather controversial matter in which the facts are in dispute. The distinguished American who bought these two pictures has very kindly given one of them on indefinite loan to the Tate Gallery. I would add that the recommendation here is that the National Portrait Gallery should be asked for advice on portraits by persons whose names appear in the Dictionary of National Biography, so that we are doing our best to safeguard national treasures. But we must keep in mind that London is also a very great art centre and that a total closed shop would not necessarily be in the national interest.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what courses of advanced technology are available for students in the technical colleges in the new town of Peterlee in County Durham.

There is none in Peterlee itself, but both part-time and full-time advanced courses are available at colleges which serve this area.

Is it not an astonishing state of affairs that in a new technical college in a new town, a modern town, students do not have facilities for studying advanced technology? Surely my right hon. Friend can do something about that.

I slightly suspect that my right hon. Friend is warming up for supplementaries which he may ask on a later Question this afternoon. On the point of substance, he will be aware, as most hon. Members are, that it is essential, if we are to get an economic use of resources, that we should, to some extent at any rate, concentrate on places in which advanced courses are put on, and while I have great sympathy about the problems of Peterlee, the fact is that advanced courses are available in places within easy travelling distance of Peterlee.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what decision has been reached by the Government on the siting of a technological university in the county of Durham.

In the light of the current financial situation, I have regret- fully decided that I cannot approve the launching of a new technological university in the North-East in the years immediately ahead.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that when I warm up I do not require any inspiration from him or anybody else? I regard some of the answers on this subject as highly unsatisfactory. Here is a site in a new town which is modernised to the highest possible degree and in the centre of a vast population and with easy access and with many young people who want to enter universities, particularly to study technologies. Surely this is the appropriate place to have a university.

I think that my right hon. Friend knows that I was extremely sympathetic to the idea of a new technological university in the North-East, for which I think that there are extremely strong arguments. We have decided that it cannot go ahead in present circumstances because of the country's financial situation. However, I have to add that if there were a decision that it should go ahead, there would be many other strong candidates besides Peterlee for its location.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in carrying out the recommendations of the Flowers Committee; and if he will make a statement.

The Computer Board has now been established under the chairmanship of Professor Flowers. The universities with KDF9 computers have ordered up-graded machines, and in a number of cases these have been installed and are working. The programme allocation of £3 million for 1966–67 has been almost entirely committed and some £2 million of the allocation for 1967–68 has been taken up. The Computer Board is discussing with the universities the programme for the years ahead, the principles which should govern the proposed regional centres, and the provision of adequate software for the computers now being installed in universities.

Is the right hon Gentleman aware that the Flowers Committee reported that if its recommendations were not carried out in precise form, there would be very serious consequences for the future of scientific research and the computer industry in Britain? Will he therefore give an undertaking to carry out the recommendations of the Flowers Committee in five years and not six as he has suggested?

I cannot give that undertaking in that form. The best undertaking that the Flowers Committee recommendations will be substantially carried out is shown by the fact that Professor Flowers himself is now Chairman of the Computer Board.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science for how many extra children additional school accommodation will be needed as a result of raising the school-leaving age in 1970–71.

The number of extra children staying on at school will be about 350,000. It is too early yet to make a final assessment of the number who will need additional accommodation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his estimate of the number of teachers required in maintained secondary schools to raise the school-leaving age by one year in 1970–71 without any increase in the average size of classes at that time.

21,000.

Is it not becoming increasingly obvious that if this desirable goal of raising the school-leaving age is to be achieved, there will have to be a major acceleration both in the school building programme and in the recruitment of teachers? Will the right hon. Gentleman agree to give the House regular progress reports, perhaps in the form of a White Paper, telling us what steps he proposes to take to make this policy possible?

I would certainly be very happy to give the House regular reports on this subject. The hon. Gentle- man spoke of the acceleration of the building programme. For this reform there will be an extra building programme of no less than £100 million. Teacher recruitment is now going ahead faster than ever before.