asked the Minister of Power what steps will be taken to ensure that coal and fuel distributors do not unjustly increase prices during the period of severe restraint.

asked the Minister of Power if he is aware that the price charged for Multiheat fuel has been increased from 17s. 7d. per hundredweight to 19s. 2d. per hundredweight since August, whereas to recover the seasonal increase of 20s. per ton in pithead prices for domestic fuel and the introduction of the Selective Employment Tax the price should only have been increased to 18s. 9d.; and what action he will take to ensure that solid fuel merchants adhere to the Government's policy on prices and incomes.

Through the agency of the trade associations, my right hon. Friend has recently written to all coal merchants about prices, and the Department will be discussing issues arising from the period of severe restraint with representatives of the trade in due course. I understand that the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock) is sending me details about the case mentioned in his Question, and I will make inquiries.

Will my hon. Friend appreciate that this is an extraordinarily serious matter, because during the period of severe restraint, if there should be any unjustifiable increases in coal and fuel prices—and sometimes increases are erroneously said to be the fault of miners and the National Coal Board—if there is not severe restraint—[HON. MEMBERS: "Get on."] I know that this is not important to hon. Members opposite, but it is to working people—any unjustifiable increase would cause very great dissatisfaction indeed?

We appreciate the seriousness of this matter. The response of the trade has been, by and large, encouraging.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the company which has imposed on its customers the increases mentioned in my Question is Messrs. Charringtons? Will he have discussions with this firm, and, if it does not agree to rescind that part of the increase which cannot be justified by the change from summer to winter prices and the Selective Employment Tax, will he give me an undertaking that an order under the Prices and Incomes Act will be made?

We shall look into the case thoroughly.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been complaints about this matter from all over the country, and that as fuel is a basic charge, especially for those in the lower income groups, it is very important? There are also complaints about gas and electricity charges.

It is precisely because of its importance that we have been giving the matter such close attention.

asked the Minister of Power what further representations he has received arising out of the discussions that have taken place between the Gas Council and the Central Electricity Generating Board concerning the supply of natural gas to the electricity generating stations; and what reply he has sent.

asked the Minister of Power what investigations he has made into the possibility and economic advantages of utilising the gasfields in the North Sea by piping the gas to electricity generating stations and converting it directly into electricity.

asked the Minister of Power what representations he has received from the electricity supply industry seeking a share in the use of North Sea gas; and if he will make a statement.

I have in fact received no representations from any of the nationalised industries on the use of natural gas in power stations. As I informed the House on 2nd November, when the study being carried out by the Gas Council and the C.E.G.B. has been completed, the results will be carefully considered as part of the review of fuel policy which I am undertaking.

In view of the fact that about 70 to 80 per cent. of electricity is generated from conventional fuels, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is a good deal of apprehension in Yorkshire and the mining districts that, having prepared for 25, 35 and 40 year programmes, what may be economic today could be uneconomic tomorrow? May I further ask the Minister—

Order. Supplementary questions are getting long.

May I further put it to the Minister that there is a feeling in the country that there is a move towards the use of natural gas in the electricity industry? Will he—

Order. This is too long.

I have said frequently in the past that, on the present basis, there is no reason for coal miners to be alarmed about the use of natural gas as an alternative. There are many problems involved in using it in this way. I agree with my hon. Friend's view about the need to see what the future position will be. That is exactly why I want to look at the matter as part of the review of fuel policy.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the cheapest, safest and most effective way of utilising the gas fields in the North Sea is to pipe the gas ashore and convert it direct into electricity and feed it into the electricity grid and the super grid now in the course of construction? Would not this obviate the straddling of the country with vast networks of gas mains and the costly and stupid competition between the two nationalised industries?

Much as I regret it, the answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is "No, Sir". First, one has to work out what the cost of natural gas should be before one can decide the best and most efficient way of using it. Secondly, we need to know how much of it we have before we decide the various ways in which we want to use it.

asked the Minister of Power what percentage of licences for North Sea gas exploration has been granted to foreign and foreign-owned subsidiary companies.

Of the 90 production licences granted, 46 are held by foreign-owned, U.K.-registered companies; 36 jointly by foreign-owned U.K.-registered companies and U.K.-owned companies; and 8 by U.K.-owned companies. Foreign-owned interest in the 53 licences granted in 1964 amounts to about 70 per cent., and in the 37 licences granted in 1965 will amount to about 63 per cent. if the options open to the National Coal Board are fully taken up.

Taking a long-term view, is this in the Government's opinion a satisfactory ratio?

This is the way it works out. The intention of all people involved in this was to get the natural gas exploited as rapidly as possible. Most of the oil companies are foreign-owned, and if we were to keep purely to British companies there would be great delay in exploiting it.

Is it not fortunate that a capital-hungry country is able to obtain capital for this purpose from abroad? What will the Minister do to encourage this trend to help him in this and in other fields?

The main purpose of the exercise is to be sure that we exploit all the North Sea gas reserves as rapidly, as completely and as quickly as possible. Certainly foreign companies provide investment, but that is not the purpose of awarding the contracts. The purpose is to get as many people drilling as many holes as rapidly as possible.

asked the Minister of Power what provision is contained in the licences to exploit the oil and gas resources of the North Sea to enable the British Government and the licensees to end or determine the duration of the licence.

The Government may revoke any existing licence if the holder fails to comply with its terms and conditions. After an initial period of six years at least half of each of the areas licensed reverts to the Crown. A licensee may determine the licence during his six-year initial term by giving at least one year's notice, and during the subsequent term of forty years by giving at least two years' notice.

Does the Minister agree that it is of the utmost importance that he, as licensing authority, should retain powers to end these licences if the products are used to assist our Continental competitors instead of Britain's trade and industry?

My right hon. Friend has complete control of the uses to which North Sea gas is put through the Continental Shelf Act.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the terms of licences at present encourage companies to exhaust their funds within the terms of the licences they hold and that this might not be in the national interest?

Forty years is a very long time, and we have had no proposals that the depletion period should be anything like as long as that.

Is it not true that the Continental Shelf Act does not give the Minister power to intervene where a developer wishes to use the gas in his own works for non-fuel purposes?

Yes, but the fuel has to be landed in the United Kingdom, which is the point that my right hon. Friend is concerned with.

asked the Minister of Power how many licences to drill for oil and gas in the. North Sea he has issued during the last 12 months and to whom; and what conditions he includes in those licences requiring the licensees to get supplies from and repairs to their rigs done in Great Britain rather than in foreign countries.

37 production licences have been granted during the last 12 months and details were, as announced on 24th November, 1965, placed in the Library. Licences do not include any condition requiring the licensees to go to any particular place for supplies or repairs. My right hon. Friend, however, has made it clear to operators that wherever possible orders should be placed in Great Britain and is satisfied that this request is being honoured.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that when one of these rigs was recently damaged repairs were effected on the Continent instead of being done by British industry? Will he see that that does not occur again?

Yes. In this case the owners of Ocean Prince—the rig in question—made extensive but unsuccessful inquiries in the United Kingdom before going to Europe.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give details of the cost of the current High Speed Gas advertising campaign.

High Speed Gas is merely a phrase used in the general advertising of the gas industry. The industry has agreed to limit total expenditure on advertising to £3 million in the current financial year.

Will the Minister give an assurance to the public that as a result of this expensive campaign there will not be a shortage of gas? Will he also bear in mind that it is rather significant that on the same day this half-page advertisement appeared another paper said:

"Southern Gas Board stops sales of fires. Supply fears."

Will the Minister give a categoric assurance to the nation that there will be enough supplies of gas, however hard the winter, to meet all requirements?

For the hon. Member to get my agreement to the last part of his question, he should have been more active on this subject a few years ago. Some of the plants might then have been laid down and we might have the capacity today to meet the demand. In reply to the second point, some forms of advertising are very valuable because they inform the customer of the choice that is available to him and help to build up desirable loads, such as off-peak electric heating, and get people to use current in a particular fashion.

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Walter Bromley-Davenport.

Is not the Minister—

Order. I did not call the hon. Member again.

Why waste money advertising gas when there is no competition except against nationalised electricity or private enterprise fuel oil, which has to bear heavy taxation to subsidise these two moronic industries?

I must apologise for my last answer. Had I realised that the hon. and gallant Member was particularly interested I would have spent longer explaining the reply to him. The point which I was trying to make is that one of the purposes of this advertising is that it directs consumption to particular methods of consumption which are useful to the gas industry and the electricity industry generally by, for example, increasing the requirement for off-peak supplies. I would be prepared to discuss the matter further with the hon. and gallant Member.

asked the Minister of Power what estimates he has made of the value of the increase in imports of bulk steel when the 10 per cent. import surcharge is removed on 30th November, 1966; and what steps he is taking, in view of a world excess manufacturing capacity for steel, to ensure that steel is not dumped in this country.

The present growth of imports may be accentuated, but it is not possible to estimate the precise effect of the removal of the surcharge. The industry is aware of the circumstances in which applications for anti-dumping action can be made.

Can the Minister state what has been the increase in the last two months, what discussions he had with Commonwealth countries, which have cheap raw materials and cheap energy, how much of this increase is coming from Iron Curtain countries, and whether he is aware that the European steelmakers envy our structure and would possibly like to see it punctured?

If the hon. Member says that the Europeans envy our structure, I presume that he means the E.C.S.C. pricing structure.

I mean the Iron and Steel Board pricing structure.

That is the point I am making. There was pressure earlier for an E.C.S.C. type of pricing structure, but this has now gone. People throughout the world have problems in this industry. I could not without notice give the figures for which the hon. Member asks, but I am in close contact with the industry on this subject to see what can be done.

Will my right hon. Friend carefully consider the question of any imports of steel into this country? Will he also consider why these imports are coming in and what our steel industry is doing to prevent the necessity for them?

This has to be looked at as a world problem, and it is a very serious one. It is at the moment a problem of excess capacity throughout the entire world, and sooner or later, I think, all the different steel industries must reach a method of agreement in this field.

In the light of the question by his hon. Friend the Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright), is the Minister aware that the increase in steel imports is not the consequence of any shortcomings of the British iron and steel industry, but is, as the right hon. Gentleman has rightly said, a world problem? Is he further aware that this is a matter of great concern to the industry? Will he give an assurance that if action is called for to deal with the increasing imports, it will be taken speedily?

I am certainly in very close contact with the industry on this subject and obviously have had, and am having, discussions with it. Wherever the blame lay in the past, one can only hope that the new procedures which we are adopting with the right hon. Gentleman's assistance in Standing Committee D will obviate these imports in the future.

Since the imports of steel products are already running at a high level in a period of short-time working and falling order books in the home steel industry, will my right hon. Friend say why the Government have refused to put on selective import quotas? If they are not prepared to do that, what are they prepared to do?

The whole question of selective import quotas is a thorny one. We might be faced with problems in return. Certainly the Government will do anything which they feel to be of value in this field.

asked the Minister of Power which area gas boards will have difficulty in meeting peak demands during a severe cold spell this winter; and what steps he proposes to take to reduce hard ship and production cut-backs to a minimum should there be severe weather conditions.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give general directions, in the public interest, to the gas boards to see that gas supplies are available to meet public need during the winter months.

asked the Minister of Power (1) if he is satisfied that the national fuel and energy resources are now sufficient, and properly prepared, to meet the demands that might be made upon them in the coming winter, and if he will make a statement;

(2) if he will give a general direction, in the public interest, to the National Coal Board to make preparations for the stockpiling of coal in areas away from the coalfields so that householders and industries in such areas will not be adversely affected by a shortage in the event of a severe winter.

asked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied that national electricity generating resources are sufficient to ensure that adequate supplies of electricity are available this winter; and if he will make a statement.

I have discussed winter prospects fully with the chairmen of the industries, including the steps that have been and are being taken to safeguard supplies. Broadly speaking the outlook is better than last winter, and with average winter weather demand should be met. Severe weather or poor plant availability could lead to shortage of some fuels.

If there are very severe weather conditions or poor plant availability, what action does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to mitigate hardship, and is the Winter Emergency Committee still in being?

On the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, it is not customary to give details of Cabinet Committees and their availability. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] There is nothing new about that, as right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will be aware.

On the first point, we have taken a number of measures to examine the whole question of fuel supplies and studied questions of electricity grid supplies and coal stocks. These studies will enable us to take any alternative measures needed should there be combinations of difficulty.

What is the percentage of reserve plant which will be necessary to carry us safely through normal periods of severe winter weather such as we get, and when may we have that percentage of reserve plant?

That is a very difficult question. Obviously one has to decide a level at which one is prepared to take risks. Clearly the nation could not possibly afford to cover a once-in-a-hundred years winter. The electricity industry has done a great deal of work on this. It will aim for a 17 per cent. excess of capacity. There was a short-fall this year. We would hope to meet it next winter. From next winter on the position should be very satisfactory, apart from the odd freak once-in-twenty-five or thirty years winter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the lack of capacity results in a power cut domestic meters do not reflect the full reduction in the amount of heat coming from domestic heaters and, consequently, people not only get a reduction in power but pay more? Is that the case, and what does the Minister intend to do about it?

That is a point which I have not had put to me before. In fact, cuts as distinct from voltage reductions are very rare. The industry does an extraordinarily good job.

Since it is not normal to give details of Cabinet Committees, why was the Winter Emergency Committee announced with such a fanfare two years ago?

The hon. Gentleman must ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that question.

Would my right hon. Friend take into account the possibility of a shortage of coal this winter, and will he say what he intends to do to remove the lack of confidence among employees in that great industry?

The great thing which would restore the confidence of employees would be to get through this winter with as few difficulties as possible. All the evidence that I have is that there should be; no global shortage of coal. In some higher grades of domestic fuel in some limited areas there could be shortages. It is a question largely of distribution. The over-all position for the coal industry is not one which gives cause for alarm.

Why is the Minister so hesitant about his estimates for next winter? Has he not taken into account the fact that in every preceding winter we have had full employment and this year the demand for gas, electricity and coal will largely be reduced by three-quarters of a million unemployed and a large number of under-employed on short-time working?

I do not think that those two hang together as much as that.

Of course they do.

The biggest threat to fuel supplies is the odd event like, for example, difficulties of getting components delivered on time and getting plant constructed on time.

The right hon. Gentleman must do his homework.

asked the Minister of Power when North Sea gas will be available to consumers in the West Midlands; and what will be the price compared with that of present supplies.

Limited supplies should be available to the West Midlands Board next summer. These will provide an additional source of feedstock for the production of town gas to which the board's standard tariffs will apply. The board is also considering using some of the supplies of natural gas to carry out a pilot scheme for the conversion of a group of consumers to direct supply.

My hon. Friend has not answered the last part of my Question. May I remind him that my constituents are very concerned about this? They are anxious to see plentiful supplies of cheap gas and they want to see some publicly-owned holes being drilled to get supplies and not only private enterprise holes.

There are publicly-owned holes. Clearly, the question of price can only be dealt with at the time. In the case of the West Midlands, we are dealing with a pilot scheme. My hon. Friend will be aware that when a pioneer scheme was carried out at Canvey Island, there was a reduction in price of a penny a therm, but that is not necessarily a precedent for elsewhere.

Will the hon. Gentleman say whether it is the general policy of the Government to supply North Sea gas in the first place to industry or to domestic consumers?

That is a point which must depend on the price and quantity of gas available. We shall be in a position to deal with this when we complete our fuel policy review.

asked the Minister of Power why he appointed Lord Melchett as chairman of the present organising committee and as the intended chairman of the proposed National Steel Corporation.

asked the Minister of Power what qualifications and aptitudes he took into consideration when appointing the chairman of the Steel Industry Organising Committee; and if he will make a statement.

I have appointed Lord Melchett because I am satisfied that his experience and capacity in industrial commercial and financial matters provide quite outstanding qualifications for these posts.

Would not my right hon. Friend accept that there is a great deal of first-class technical and administrative talent within the existing nationalised industries? Was it not possible to make an appointment from the public sector without going to financial circles? Does that not show a kind of inferiority on the part of public enterprise in the face of private enterprise?

No. There is no question of inferiority in this. One seeks the best people who, together, make a team for a board. There will be technical and scientific people on the National Steel Corporation. I thought that the chairman needed particular qualifications. If someone else had been choosing the members of the Board, different people might have been chosen.

May I ask why this gentleman was appointed before the Bill has gone through Parliament? Why do Socialists ignore the rights of Parliament?

I am sure right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will be aware that there is an old Fabian motto about the inevitability of gradualness and eventually it will be law.

Will the right hon. Gentleman not confirm that, whatever his wishes may have been, he had to go to the City of London and the private enterprise steel industry to find the best men?

There will be people on the Corporation who do not come from either the private steel industry or the City of London. It will be a balanced Board. On this Question, we are talk- ing purely about the chairman, and his qualifications stand up to any sort of examination.

asked the Minister of Power what representations he has received regarding Her Majestys' Government's appointment of Lord Melchett as chairman of the Organising Committee for the steel industry.

Four from local Labour parties: four from members of the public.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very strong feeling on this side of the House that Lord Melchett lacks the two essentials for this type of job: first of all, a thorough knowledge of the industry itself; and, secondly and even more important, sympathy with the aims of Socialist ownership?

As I am sure my hon. Friend will be aware, Lord Melchett has for some considerable time been a member of a Board of a nationalised industry. I should have thought that that did not show outstanding hostility to the principle of public ownership.

asked the Minister of Power if he will now made a statement on the prospects of British industry in the energy sector; and whether the progress in the development of nuclear power stations together with the increasing availability of power from North Sea gas supplies will result in cheaper sources of energy by the 1970s.

Competitively priced energy supply for British industry is a major consideration in the review of fuel policy. Progress in nuclear power technology and the North Sea gas discoveries are encouraging pointers, but I would hesitate at this stage to forecast price levels for the 1970's in view of the many and great uncertainties.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that everything adds up to intense competition with the need to achieve co-ordination by effective planning and direction of fuel and power resources? Would not he also agree that, in the review of the fuel policy, he should so design things as to secure the maximum economic use of the nation's indigenous energy resources by providing a guarantee for coal production in order to maintain the structure of the mining industry and to avoid further disastrous contraction?

I agree with the need to use our fuel resources in the best possible way. The only way to do this is to look at them altogether to see how they act and interact on each other, and this is precisely the job that we are trying to do in this fuel policy review.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that gas prices in Scotland in the 'seventies are above the average for the rest of the country, as they are just now?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. I cannot say what the price of gas in Scotland will be in the 'seventies, but I am sure that we can rely on him to raise the matter again if he is not satisfied.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will introduce legislation to oblige nationalised industries to prepare separate annual accounts covering the activities of diversification projects, and to set up an abitration tribunal to hear and pronounce upon any complaints of unfair competition or undue discrimination arising out of such activities.

No. Sir. In the case of the industries for which I am responsible, my powers under the nationalisation statutes to direct the form of the accounts are adequate and I see no need for any tribunal to deal with complaints of unfair competition or undue discrimination.

So long as the Minister refuses to accede to these very reasonable demands which have been put forward by the Confederation of British Industry and others who have voiced fears about the diversification of the nationalised industries, how can he expect them to take his assurances rationally? Does not he realise that great anger was caused by the remark made the other day by his Parliamentary Secretary about industry fearing lions under the bed?

The hon. Gentleman's question was in two parts. First, he asked for separate annual accounts covering the activities of diversification projects. Secondly, he asked for a tribunal to be set up to deal with this if the parties were aggrieved.

On the first one, the National Coal Board's accounts for 1965–66 include details of diversified projects undertaken in association with private industry, and I shall be discussing with the Board the form of future accounts.

On the second part, it is the responsibility of Government in the end to take the decisions and to be answerable to Parliament. Many of the suggestions in the C.B.I.'s memorandum are broadly acceptable to the Government.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members on the other side—and ex-Members, too—who were supposed to be experts in this direction did not know the first ethic of it? In fact, one hon. Member at that time did not know until he saw it on the tape that his colliery company was £50,000 in the red.

asked the Minister of Power what is the outcome of his request to area electricity and gas boards to put up their prices for contracting work by an amount equivalent to what they would have to pay if Selective Employment Tax were levied, in order thereby to offset the unfair incidence of the tax levied on contractors in the private sector.

asked the Minister of Power whether he is aware that, following consultations between himself and area electricity boards and private enterprise electrical contractors, the area boards have agreed to raise their prices to consumers for electrical contracting work by a sum equal to the Selective Employment Tax which such boards do not pay, but private enterprise electrical contractors do pay, whereas this is contrary to Part IV of the Prices and Incomes Act; and what action he proposes to take in the matter.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent the arrangement he has made for nationalised electrical contracting concerns to take the Selective Employment Tax into account in costing projects will raise the prices of the services they offer; and whether he intends to make similar arrangements in the case of gas contracting and coal retailing.

asked the Minister of Power if he has completed his consultations with the electricity and gas industries concerning the effect of Selective Employment Tax on the terms of competition between electricity and gas showrooms, private contractors and retail firms; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Members to the Answers to Questions by the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) and the hon. Members for Lewisham, West (Mr. Dickens) and Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) on the 18th October [Vol. 734, c. 32] and 8th November [Vol. 735, c. 249] respectively. The arrangements I have proposed would only apply to the contracting activities of area electricity and gas boards.

The right hon. Gentleman will remember that he gave the House an undertaking in that Answer on 18th October. Would not he agree that a more sensible arrangement would have been to have exempted private contractors from paying this tax at the outset and thus avoided the charge of unfair competition by area boards, and indeed increased costs to the consumer? The right hon. Gentleman must fulfil his undertaking to Parliament.

The undertaking was to find a way of trying to meet all the interests involved. Consumers have interests, and the public purse has an interest, too. These arrangements will not apply until 1st January, which is after the ending of the prices and incomes standstill. They provide electrical contractors with equality of competition. They leave the Exchequer's net cash outflow unaffected and they save the economy the burden of administration which would be imposed on the board and the Ministry by liability to the tax. It seems a good solution to me.

Is it not a fact that what the right hon. Gentleman has done amounts to a conspiratorial alliance between himself and the area electricity boards deliberately to raise prices in contravention of the Prime Minister's statement? Why does he not take action to bring down prices, not to put them up?

If the hon. Gentleman would produce his supplementaries after he has heard the Answers they would not be so repetitive. I said that this would not apply until 1st January, which is after the ending of the prices and incomes standstill.

The right hon. Gentleman did not make plain whether the full S.E.T. would be passed on or whether the nationalised electrical contracting firms would have to absorb a percentage of it in higher productivity. Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether a percentage has to be absorbed in higher productivity, and if so what percentage, or whether the full S.E.T. is to be passed on?

One would expect all the contractors, public or private, to absorb as much as they can of this tax. This is not the amount which they have to charge to the consumer. The amounts involved are very small indeed. Direct labour costs amount to about 6 per cent. of the total revenue, which is only one-third of the industry's turnover. The amount involved is very small, and the more that can be absorbed the better.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that he has been generous, some may think over-generous, to the interests of private contractors?

Until I heard hon. Gentlemen opposite, my hon. Friend's description completely described my own feelings.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that there is considerable justified anger among private electrical contractors, first, because they are having to put up their prices because of the S.E.T., and, secondly, because through their own tax they are helping their competitors against themselves?

The hon. Lady's question has underlined the problem. If she would get together with the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro)—

I do not want my hon. Friend to get together with me.

That demonstrates the hon. Gentleman's usual lack of appreciation of these things. There are two problems here. The hon. Gentleman is complaining about prices being raised. The hon. Lady is complaining because they have not been raised enough to cover contractors. This arrangement is being discussed with the Electrical Contractors' Association, and has been discussed with it, and all the interests have to be taken into account. This seems to be the best way of doing it.

Is the Minister aware that our complaint is simply that the effect of S.E.T., which was, after all, a Government measure, has been to put up prices all round?

None of this change, so far as it relates to this industry, has put any prices up. Nor will it do so during the period of the freeze, and one would hope that after that the industry and everybody else will do what they can to absorb it.

asked the Minister of Power what has been the return on capital employed in the nationalised coal, gas, and electricity industries, respectively, in the last year; and how this compares with the average for the last five years.

The gross return, consisting of surpluses, depreciation and interest, in 1965–66, was for coal 11 per cent., for gas 10 per cent. and for electricity 12·6 per cent. With permission I shall circulate the five-year averages and explanatory notes in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is not this return very low compared with the average of private companies'? Does not this cast grave doubt on the Government's policy to allow public concerns to go into the manufacturing industry?

No, Sir. These returns fulfil almost precisely the target set by hon. Members opposite when they were the Government.

asked the Minister of Power what effect he estimates the discovery of gas supplies in the North Sea will have on pricing policy in the nationalised industries.

I do not expect the advent of North Sea gas to cause any fundamental change in the general principles of pricing policy as set out in last year's White Paper on Fuel Policy (Cmnd. 2798).

Will the Minister do all he can to encourage competition between various types of fuel and allow market forces, and not the Minister, to determine the price?

No, Sir. I would have thought that what we need to do is to discover the best way of using all the different sources of energy that we have and, having decided what is the best way, to consider how best to ensure that this pattern is met.

asked the Minister of Power how many Rolf installations have been installed in coal mines in Great Britain.

I understand that two experimental installations were made in 1962; these have now been withdrawn and are awaiting transfer to other pits. Two others are in current operation, one is in the process of installation, and a further three will follow shortly.

May I ask the Minister not to give consent for any further Rolf installations until the National Union of Mineworkers and the National Coal Board have reached agreement on the 7-day manning of these expensive capital installations in coal mines? Is not the failure to agree on 7-day manning an absolute disaster?

That is an entirely different question. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."]

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I asked the Minister whether he would withhold consent for any further installations.

A Minister has the right to answer a Question in whatever way he likes.

asked the Minister of Power how many builders' merchants businesses have been purchased by the National Coal Board since its inception.

I am informed by the National Coal Board that, through an associated company, fourteen builders' merchants businesses have been bought in various parts of the country.

Will the hon. Gentleman please bear in mind the degree of not unnatural resentment from the bona fide merchants who are now being competed with by a Board which has millions of pounds of capital behind it and which can afford to bear losses for an indefinite period?

At the same time, the hon. Member will, I am sure, agree that when other fuel industries have showrooms in shopping centres it is important for the Coal Board to have outlets for the kind of appliances in which people can burn coal. It is with this in mind that the Board is diversifying in this direction.

Do the figures which the Minister has just given include the large number of acquisitions made by J. H. Sankey & Son, a company controlled by the Coal Board?

Yes, they do.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give a general direction to the National Coal Board to institute a survey of all colliery spoil banks whose future growth is planned to take them nearer to occupied houses and to review policy in the light of such a survey.

The Board has already examined all its spoil heaps to ensure that they do not constitute a hazard to life or property. Policy will be reviewed in the light of the report of the tribunal which is now sitting.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that will give partial satisfaction to my constituents, who in this instance are concerned not so much with safety as with amenity? In at least one village in Warwickshire, the Coal Board spoil bank will advance during the next few years quite close to a recently erected private housing estate. If a general direction is not appropriate in this instance, will my right hon. Friend look into the case?

Certainly, if my hon. Friend will send me details of this or any other instance, I will look at it. Pit-heaps which were in existence on 1st July, 1948, can be continued only under the general permission of the Town and Country Planning (General Development) Order, 1963. This may well be an alternative avenue open to my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Power how many tons of colliery waste were put to industrial use by the National Coal Board in each of the last five years; and what research is being carried out for its further exploitation in the national interest.

Available figures for colliery waste used industrially are 7·1, 7·9, and 6·9 million tons in 1963–64, and the two subsequent years. The Board's scientists are seeking further applications of the material to brickmaking and as an aggregate in place of gravel.

Can my hon. Friend give an assurance to the House that this research will be pursued with the greatest possible endeavour and that in future, instead of putting coal waste on the countryside to be a potential danger to future generations, it will be used for commercial purposes as much as possible?

Yes. Every effort is being made in that direction.

asked the Minister of Power how many miners in the past five years, during the reorganisation of the mining industry, have been moved to receiving mining areas to meet the needs of modern redeployment in economic pits.

Since 1962 about 10,000 men have moved under Board's schemes into receiving mining areas.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that it has not been an easy task to surmount the social upheavals in such a massive manpower movement, and would not he agree that such human redeployment for the betterment of the economy is worthy of the widespread publicity which has been vouchsafed and given by other branches of British industry which have recently been highlighted.

I would certainly agree with that. I do not think that there is any other industry which, faced with such enormous social problems, has acted with less upheaval and less dislocation than has happened in the coal industry in this very difficult period.

asked the Minister of Power if he will now take action, in view of the Report No. 21 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on Coal Distribution Costs, regarding the reorganisation of coal distribution.

My right hon. Friend's first concern has been to draw the attention of all coal merchants to the recommendations of the Report on prices. He has however also approached the interests concerned on the longer term question of reorganisation.

The Minister must be aware of the fact that retail coal distribution costs increased, according to the Report, by 60 per cent. between 1958 and 1966 and that the T.G. & W., the N.U.M., and U.S.D.A.W. gave evidence in favour of public ownership? Is it not time that we stopped the public purse being exploited by private enterprise?

As my hon. Friend knows, the Coal Board is taking an active line, through the development of coal concentration depots, and through its own interests in coal distribution.

asked the Minister of Power how many coal tips exist in the Yorkshire coalfield; and what investigations are being made to ensure that they do not create a hazard to health or safety of local residents.

283 under the control of the National Coal Board; I have no information about the number under the control of local authorities, private owners or licensed mines. The National Coal Board has made a detailed inspection of each of its tips since the Aberfan disaster, and I am assured that none constitutes a hazard to life or property.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but will he impress upon the National Coal Board that these tips damage the amenities of the Yorkshire and Humberside region?

The question of amenity is another matter, which will no doubt be considered by the Board.