asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will now make a statement on the progress of the discussions between his Department, the Board of Trade and representatives of the construction industry about methods of implementing the recommendations of the Banwell Committee concerning a standard form of contract consistent with the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1956.

The discussions have not yet been concluded but my Department is studying the possibility of evolving a common form of building contract.

Does not the Minister think it most regrettable that this matter should have gone on for such a long time? Is he aware that over a year ago in the National Plan this was recommended to Parliament to increase the efficiency of the building industry? When will these discussions be over and agreement reached?

This is a very complicated subject, but, in view of the fact that the Banwell Committee's Report was made in 1964 and many entrenched positions have been taken up, there has not been delay on our part. We appreciate the need to make progress as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will hold a Government inquiry into the building industry.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what representations he has received asking for a Government inquiry into the building industry; and what reply he has sent.

The need for an inquiry has been put to me by a number of people in the industry and it was the subject of a resolution passed at the annual conference of the National Federation of Building Trades Operatives in June. I have come to the conclusion that there are particular problems of the industry that need further study, rather than holding an all-embracing inquiry.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that there are many other very grave problems connected with the building industry which ought to be investigated at the same time, namely, the financing of the building industry, decasualisation of labour and the method of training? Will he include these in any inquiry he institutes?

The labour question is the subject of Question No. 3. Progress on training can best be considered in the context of the Construction Industry Training Board, which is making good progress, but a number of other matters might be looked at from time to time. We have asked the E.D.C.s to look into the question of import savings within the industry and other ad hoc problems, but I should not like this to be held up because of a number of other things on which we need the answers.

As the right hon. Gentleman has decided to have yet another inquiry, will he give consideration to a comparison inquiry comparing with the building industry in other parts of the world? Does he not agree that only then shall we be able to view the industry in proper perspective?

If, as I hope, the E.D.C.s take on the question of the structure of the industry, I hope they will take into consideration all experience overseas.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what proposals he now has to deal with the problem of labour-only sub-contracting in the building and civil engineering industries.

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour and I have decided in principle that an independent inquiry into this subject is desirable, and we hope shortly to make a further statement after receiving comments from the Economic Development Committees for Building and for Civil Engineering.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very serious concern about this problem, which has been going on for some time? We should like to see some action now and not delay until another inquiry and further discussions have taken place. Will he do something about it soon?

Yes, we are aware of the very great concern on this, but because of the great complexity of the problem which involves labour relations in the industry, and also a number of Government anxieties about the future of industrial training and so on, we need an inquiry into the facts. I agree, however, that this is a matter of urgency.

Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us more about what he means by an independent inquiry? Is he proud of the fact that the only Government contribution so far has been the Selective Employment Tax, which has increased the incidence of "labour-only".

This problem existed long before the Selective Employment Tax. The E.D.C.s for the building and civil engineering industries are meeting today and tomorrow respectively and will have before them a letter from the Ministry of Labour with which I am associated. In the light of their comments on that, we hope to make a further statement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the nature of the work still continuing at the stable yard at St. James's Palace; what is the total estimated cost; and whether he will consider suspending the work in view of the economic crisis.

No work is going on there.

Then can my hon. Friend state why the sum appeared in the Estimates?

There has been a small sum of £750 under "works in progress", but that refers to the boreholes which have been completed recently.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what machinery exists in his department to ensure that the prices of building materials do not increase during the period of the freeze policy.

My Department has made arrangements for early warning systems for 12 of the most widely used materials. Arrangements for keeping a "constant watch" are being negotiated in respect of sand and gravel, as the early warning system is not appropriate to this industry.

What action did the Department take following the revelations that I made in an Adjournment debate in July about the prices asked and profits made by the firms engaged in the production and selling of cables? It does not seem to me that any action has been taken? Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the representations made by the Fife County Council, which were not complaining so much about the manufacturers as about the people in between the manufacturers and the users?

I cannot answer those supplementary questions without notice, but I will look into the questions which have just been raised and write to my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a number of my constituents have been faced with an increase in the cost of buying new homes during the period of the wage freeze and that they were told that this was due to the increase in the cost of building materials? Is my right hon. Friend aware that it certainly was not due to an increase in the cost of labour?

I should like to have more details of that from my hon. Friend. To date my Department has received 33 complaints about price increases. Some of these are still under investigation. Those we have investigated so far have not shown any increase which would be in breach of the prices standstill.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what staff he now employs for building and maintenance for the Services; and how this compares with the total employed by the Services before takeover.

The figure is not available since the Department's staff for dealing with military and civilian services has been integrated. No direct comparison can be made.

Are we to assume that this centralisation has resulted in some saving? At any rate, can we assume that there are enough to cope with the return of troops from abroad in large numbers from Malaysia and presumably from B.A.O.R., or will the question of putting them under canvas arise?

On the first question, there has been a reduction of over 2,700 in the total staff of the Ministry, which is about 3 per cent. However, we have increased the number engaged on the research and development side. The second supplementary question raises matters outside the scope of the original Question.

Is the Minister aware that when this merger took place a far more substantial reduction than 3 per cent. was envisaged? What percentage reduction does he have in mind?

As I said, there has been a reduction of more than 3 per cent. from the merger. On the other hand, there has been an increase of staff due to the expansion of research and development activities. Because of the way the work has been integrated, it is not possible to isolate one factor from another.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many married quarters were completed for the Services in the last year, to the nearest convenient date; and what was the comparable figure for two years ago.

3,668 quarters were completed in the United Kingdom in the year ended 31st March, 1966, compared with 2,747 in the year ended 31st March, 1964.

I am glad to hear that there has been an increase. Again, will this be sufficient to cope with the influx of Service men and their families? How is it intended to cope with them? Is it intended to cope with them by more furnished hirings, or what?

The amount of hiring for the Services is increasing. But this is a very difficult problem; the Government have it very much in the forefront of their mind.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works (1) how many married quarters for the Services were completed in Great Britain in the 12 months to the last convenient date; and how many were completed overseas during the same period;

Three thousand, five hundred and twenty-nine quarters were completed in Great Britain and 368 overseas in the year ended 31st March, 1966.

Is it not very unfortunate that the number of quarters built overseas should be more than ten times the number of quarters built in this country, especially as there is a great shortage of married quarters in this country, and especially in view of the Government's declared intention to bring the Army home?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman misunderstood me, or I made a mistake in words. It was 3,529 that had been completed in Great Britain and 368 that had been completed overseas. I am sorry if I made a slip of the tongue.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say how many are under construction at home at the present time?

Four thousand, five hundred.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will suspend all work at present being undertaken to install air conditioning in the House of Lords.

No, Sir. The work is virtually complete.

Hear, hear.

I am glad to have so much support from the benches opposite. Why was it necessary to undertake this work, since we intend shortly to see this place go, in view of what was said in the 1911 Act and the statement in our own manifesto? Is not this an example of painting the ship and then sending it to the breaker's yard?

I do not know about the more rhetorical flights of my hon. Friend's fancy. This Ministry deals with works and bricks. The system was 50 years old, was very antiquated and needed overhauling.

How much did this work cost? Would it not have been cheaper to put in temporary oxygen apparatus as is used on aeroplanes?

It cost £140,000, but on the technicalities of building I defer to my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works which roads in Richmond Park he has recently closed to traffic; and why he has taken this action.

A stretch of the road from Kingston Gate to Robin Hood Gate was closed for resurfacing for two weeks at the beginning of last September.

Does that Answer mean that there is no intention to proceed with the proposal to close the road between the Roehampton and Robin Hood Gates?

There has never been such a proposal in this Ministry.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that his decision not to go ahead with the proposed closure of part of the road in Richmond Park is very gratefully received by all my constituents?

I take notice of that.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many square feet of additional office space have been provided to accommodate the 19,500 extra civil servants engaged since October, 1964.

About 2·7 million sq. ft.

Will they not be rather cramped because of this lack of space? What does the Minister intend to do about future expansions?

Part of the increase is due to the relief of the very overcrowded conditions in which a number of civil servants were working. Part is due to the greater number of civil servants to which my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary has referred in recent Parliamentary answers.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the standards are now satisfactory? Would he bear in mind the need always to improve welfare and other accommodation that goes with it? May I have an assurance from him that he intends to go on replacing the old and rather dirty offices in many places by new buildings as soon as possible?

Yes. We must make as much progress as we can on that front in the light of the economic situation. I agree that there are still many Government offices which are unsatisfactory.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what efforts are being made to find alternative work for the unemployed building workers in the North-West; whether there is building work available for them in housing, schools, and factories in development areas; and if he will make a statement.

The normal services of the employment exchanges are helping men to find alternative jobs. Over the North-West as a whole, orders for new construction work have been maintained fairly well. On Merseyside, increasing employment opportunities for building workers are likely to be available in new town and overspill areas.

Is my hon. Friend aware that since July there has been an increase in unemployment amongst building operatives? Is not this absolutely ludicrous when at the same time we have talked in terms of cushioning development areas from unemployment? Would my hon. Friend give me an assurance that every effort will be made to ensure that there is full employment in these areas?

I am sure that my hon. Friend would not like to exaggerate and give comfort to the Tory Party. In the North-West Region as a whole in October, 1966—only a few weeks ago—there were 6,151 building workers unemployed, 50 fewer than in October, 1964.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain how the facts in the latest N.F.B.T.E. bulletin, which show that the development areas are now being hit by the building squeeze, tie up with the much vaunted Government policy of regional no stop-go?

The figures for unemployment in the building industry on the Merseyside region are 244 down on the same period two years ago.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary confirm that in the two months up to October of this year the number of unemployed building workers has risen by 50 per cent.? Is it not a likely result of the Government's present policies that that number will continue to increase in future months?

No, that is not correct.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, what steps he is taking to prevent pigeons from nesting in rooms in the Upper Committee corridor.

This is not my pigeon.

Is my hon. Friend aware that birds nesting in the roof of this Palace will obviously constitute a danger to the fabric, which ought to be his pigeon?

Most of the external windows on the corridor in question do not open. If hon. Members admit birds to their rooms upstairs, I cannot be responsible for the consequences.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will now make a statement on the operation of the Building Control Act, 1966, and the regulations made thereunder.

I would refer the hon. Member to my speech on 1st November on the Motion to approve the Building Control (Cost Limit Exemption) Order, 1966.—[Vol. 735, c. 391–4.]

Bearing in mind, on the one hand, the frustrations and interference which these regulations have caused in sectors such as office building, how does the right hon. Gentleman explain, on the other hand, the complete failure to get any increased figures in the all-important sector, namely, private housing?

The nature of the building control policy has to be seen in relation to the economic situation. Those of us who are prepared to take a responsible view—and that does not apply to every hon. Member opposite—will recognise that some limit on private building should be an essential part of our measures at the present time.

Were we not told that one of the consequences of this control would be to increase building work for housing?

In the sense that there is still a shortage of skilled workers in the building industry in most parts of the country, any skilled workers who would have been engaged on projects for which we have refused licences are now available for housing and other more important work.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate his statistical Department has made of the number of additional houses built in Great Britain as a result of the refusal of building licences for casinos and gambling establishments under the Building Control Act, 1966.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, what estimates his statistical Department has made of the number of additional houses built in Great Britain as a result of the licensing provisions of the Building Control Act, 1966, as amended.

None, Sir.

Had not the Minister better come clean and tell the House that the talk of casinos and the excrescences of the dolce vita are the smokescreen put out by those whose housing policies are in a shambles?

No, Sir. The hon. Member and some of his hon. Friends are whipping themselves up into more and more artificial emotion about this. The projects that we have refused to license in recent months include new racecourse stands at Haydock Park and Newton Abbot and a combined restaurant, bar and amusement arcade at Great Yarmouth, as well as two cinemas. They include, therefore, a number of projects which we would accept as being of less social importance than housing and many other essential kinds of building which we want to go ahead.

Getting back to the subject of housing, would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that although no more houses are being built, the size of the staff at his Ministry has nevertheless increased?

The effect of this particular control on the size of the Ministry's staff has been negligible. So far as houses are concerned, in the first nine months of the year 280,090 were completed as against 277,083 last year. That is an improvement, not a decline.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether these cancellations of what he calls inessential works account for the answer that he gave just now, in which he substituted the allegation that the Conservatives provided too few bricks for the allegation that we provided too many?

No, Sir. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to debate bricks I will debate them at any time—he was wrong about the need for bricks as well. But I return to the point about the control. There has been a number of these projects and others that are of more importance, such as office and shop development, but which are nevertheless of less importance than housing and industrial building where we had to make a choice. In the present economic situation it was right to give ourselves the power to make that choice and to use that power.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works, what discussions he has had with representatives of the brick production industries regarding the revised national target of brick production in 1970.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what discussions he has had with representatives of the building and construction industries regarding the revised national output target of those industries in 1970.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what discussion he has had with cement manufacturers regarding the revised output targets of Portland cement in 1970.

None, Sir.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the National Plan spoke of an increase in brick production running at a rate of 3·8 per cent. per annum? Does he say that this figure still holds? If not, what figure does he now give for brick manufacture?

I have recently had discussions on the Plan with leaders of the National Federation of Clay Industries. I cannot give a revised figure for between now and 1970 because it is not possible to give figures for brick manufacture or for the construction industry independently of the National Plan as a whole.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that, even when the National Plan was published, it was said that unless there were an orderly growth of demand, the figures in the National Plan for the construction industries would not be reached? Is it not time that the industry was told what is expected of it by 1970? Surely this is vital for building construction in this country?

I want to do everything I can to give people in the construction industry, including brick producers, as much information as possible as quickly as possible. The question really depends on the date on which and the pace at which we can resume a more expansionist economic policy. We cannot consider one industry in isolation. Much depends on overcoming our balance of payments problems.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate that the one thing the building industry wants is confidence in what the Government say? The National Plan shows a necessity for 25 million tons of cement to be produced in 1970 and we are now reaching only 16,800,000 tons. Will the hon. Gentleman assure the cement industry that, if it increases production to meet the Plan, it will not be in the same difficulties as the brick manufacturers experienced when they increased their production and were left with enormous stocks?

The figures in the National Plan, which was approved by everybody in this House—it was not simply the present Government's plan—have had to be looked at again in view of the measures taken following the crisis in July. It is time that hon. Members opposite took a more constructive and responsible attitude instead of trying to score cheap party points. These do not give them any credit with the brick manufacturers or anyone else associated with the construction industries

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that his predecessor gave a forecast which was independent of the National Plan about bricks and that we remember what it was? It was disastrous for the industry.

The present excess capacity in the brick industry is a result of extra capacity decided upon and to a great extent laid down before my predecessor came into office.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the answers, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise the subject at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will make a statement as to the more effective use of labour in the building and construction industry which is taking place directly as a result of the Selective Employment Tax.

It is not possible to separate improvements which result specifically from the operation of this tax from other factors which affect efficiency.

Will the right hon. Gentleman stop standing on his head and look again at the National Plan and at the Parliamentary Secretary's statement that we were desperately short of labour in the construction industry? Would he also look at the "Little Neddy" Report which said that investment would fall off as a result of S.E.T.? Would he also look at his predecessor's speeches and his own?

That is a wide supplementary question. There has, in fact, been a reduction of some 25,000 people employed in the industry in recent months. I should have thought that the operation of the Selective Employment Tax in encouraging firms to make more use of labour-saving devices would be a factor of which the hon. Member would approve.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how much money would be saved by retaining in position all the year round the flag poles in the Mall and elsewhere in London which are used on the occasion of state visits.

Very little; but cost is not the only consideration.

Would the hon. Gentleman explore ways of saving unnecessary expenditure of this kind where there is no serious adverse effect on amenity?

I suspect that the hon. Gentleman would agree that the sight of poles left up for long periods when there were no public ceremonies would become very irritating. When State visits are close together the poles are left up, but when there are none in prospect, they are taken down.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what procedure he adopts to investigate the security and safety of ground upon which new buildings are to be built with his authority and under licence from him.

Where my own Department intends to build, the normal practice is to explore the subsoil of the site by sinking trial or bore holes and taking samples for laboratory analysis.

Was that procedure adopted in the case of the College of Zoology at Aberdeen University, which collapsed with loss of life and injury?

I was careful to say in my original reply that the procedures I described were appropriate to building projects of my own Department. This does not apply to the University of Aberdeen. The tragic events there are, I understand, to be the subject of a public inquiry.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has made of the cost of new construction by his Department in the Persian Gulf area in 1967–68 and 1968–69.

I am not prepared at this stage to publish these estimates.

Is the Minister aware that the total cost of building for the Services in the Persian Gulf for the next two years will be double the cost of building for the Services in Aden in the past two years?

I cannot comment on the figures. As the hon. Gentleman knows, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence decided not to give total expenditure figures for the next two financial years. In that context, I do not think that I can give an estimate for part of them. As for a comparison between Aden and the Persian Gulf, it would be more sensible to take a long-term view of comparative costs rather than isolate costs for these years in the Persian Gulf, when they will be above average.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works whether he will send some of the experts on historic buildings and artistic matters in his Department to help their opposite numbers in the flood-damaged regions of Italy.

My right hon. Friend is very ready to help in this way if such assistance is needed.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary recognise that this is one way at least in which we can show that we are part of Europe, and do all he can to send some of his people over there?

The reason I gave rather a cautious Answer was that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science is mainly responsible for the arts. My Department has a few picture restorers and we have some special expertise in restoring ancient buildings. These facilities will certainly be made available if the committee considering the matter wishes.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that anything he can reasonably do in this regard will have the general support of this side of the House?

I thank the hon. Gentleman very much.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what progress he is making with the listing of industrial monuments.

Thirty industrial monuments have been scheduled an ancient monuments and some others are being scheduled. A considerable amount of preliminary work has been done towards establishing which monuments are worth preserving.

Could the Minister hasten this, because not only do these monuments vanish very rapidly owing to the value of the sites they occupy but they have a great educational value? Apart from anything else, they are part of the history of the trade union movement.

I have advocated this both from the back benches and from my present position. One of the keys to this is the good will of industry. We have been discussing this with industry, which is very well disposed towards the general problem. I should be most grateful if the hon. Gentleman used his influence in that direction also.

Is my hon. Friend aware that far too many workers are still working in these industrial monuments?

They are not the sort we wish to preserve.

What about embalming the National Plan and putting that up somewhere?

asked the Minister of Social Security what increase in staff has been allowed to offices in Glasgow to meet the additional demands on her Department; how many unfilled vacancies exist; and what percentage of staff is temporary.

Since the beginning of this financial year, the complement of the Glasgow offices has been increased by 114. There are 18 unfilled vacancies. 11 per cent. of the staff in post are temporary.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that at the moment there is excessive pressure on existing staff, including compulsory overtime, and would she have a special look at the recruiting arrangements in the Glasgow area to ensure that her Department gets its fair share of the best recruits?

Yes, Sir. I am very much aware of the stress and strain that is being experienced by our officers, not only in Glasgow, but all over the country, and we have taken certain measures to try to lessen the stress. I should like to take this opportunity of giving my most grateful thanks to those officers all over Britain for the wonderful job they are doing at present to try to ensure that the benefits are paid in time.

asked the Minister of Social Security how many new applications have been received for supplementary pensions from applicants previously disqualified because of savings.

I regret that it is not possible to ascertain this figure. The information obtained from a supplementary pension claimant does not always show whether he would have qualified for National Assistance.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that in the light of an article by a senior civil servant in the Daily Telegraph of 19th October it is essential that we find out how many of the new applicants would previously have been disqualified because of their savings, and conversely how many existing beneficiaries will be excluded under the new set-up because certain savings are no longer disregarded?

My hon. Friend may have noticed a reply to that article, which showed very clearly that under the new scheme no one will be worse off than previously—not a single person. In answer to another Question, I shall show the results of some of the publicity we have been carrying out.

asked the Minister of Social Security how many widows out of employment receive no National Insurance pension.

I regret that this information is not available.

Should not this information be available to the right hon. Lady? Are there not certain anomalies in this regard which are most unjust to those widows, and will she not look into this matter and arm herself with the necessary statistics?

There certainly are a great many anomalies in connection with widows' benefits. If the information could have been obtained I would certainly have given it. I can tell the hon. Member that it is estimated that 40,000 widows under the age of 60 are not receiving a pension from my Department, but it is impossible for us to know how many of them are permanently outside employment or are self-employed. We know only that it is a very small minority.

asked the Minister of Social Security what further steps she will take to provide pensions for all widows.

asked the Minister of Social Security what proposals she now has for modifying the age barrier of 50 years which prevents many widows from qualifying for a National Insurance widow's pension.

The conditions for widows' benefits are being considered in the general review of the social security provisions which the Government are conducting.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that promise, may I ask whether she is aware that the present arbitrary rules about widows' pensions cause poverty to a large number of widows, and, bearing in mind the concern that she expressed on a previous Question, does she not think that poverty among widows ought to be looked at urgently?

I agree with my hon. Friend.

If the right hon. Lady has no immediate proposals for doing something about widows under 50, will she use her influence to facilitate the Private Member's Bill sponsored by my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Pink) and supported by myself and other hon. Friends when it comes before the House?

I certainly could not give that promise. There have been so many things left, particularly in regard to widows, for this Government to attend to. As to what we have already done, a widow who has become widowed since 5th July this year is paid the temporary widow's allowance not for three months but for six months, and a widow who has been widowed since 5th October will also have not only this temporary allowance for six months but the £7 supplement. I think that we have shown that we are concerned about widows, and we shall continue, with our review and what comes from it, to show the country the results of that concern.

asked the Minister of Social Security what steps she intends to take to alleviate child poverty.

I have nothing to add at present to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. Mapp), on 7th November.—[Vol. 735, c. 213.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the patience of many of us is running out on this matter? Does she recognise that our party is deeply committed to redistributing the national wealth and that this problem can be tackled by readjusting Income Tax child allowances and thus redistributing wealth to the people with large families on low incomes? Will she give an assurance that this will be done in a very short time?

I can understand my hon. Friend's feelings. I am very deeply committed on this matter. I can assure my hon. Friend, however, that the most urgent consideration is being given to this. We have received some preliminary information from the survey carried out last June and we shall at the earliest possible moment bring forward legislation to alleviate poverty amongst children.

Will not the right hon. Lady admit that, had she a research unit in her Ministry, this would be one of the many problems, as would the problem raised by Question No. 33, which that unit could have investigated more fully, and will she take steps, accepting that we on this side are just as anxious as anyone else to deal with the problem of large families—

Since when?

—to see that her inquiries are completed as soon as possible?

A research unit would not have helped. I have always believed that far too little research has been done in this country into these social problems. If more had been done in the past, we should not have had to start to do it as we did for the old last year and as we have done for the young this year. But the survey we have carried out, with the other information we have been able to glean, will be sufficient for us to come to decisions on how best to help these families.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the growing number of children falling below minimum standards of nutrition and the widening poverty gap are causing great alarm, and that the rumoured impending cuts in the social services will be bitterly resented on this side of the House?

I am well aware of the feeling about these children, and, as I have said in the House time and again, I also am deeply concerned about them. I am determined that something should be done to alleviate their situation, whether their fathers are in work or out of work.

Although there will be agreement on both sides of the House that the problem of child poverty is extremely serious, will the right hon. Lady bear in mind that it is not necessarily the best way to alleviate it to do so at the expense of those Income Tax payers who happen to be parents as distinct from those who do not?

All these matters are being taken into account. There is no doubt that children of the low-wage earner are suffering serious deprivation at the present time and we have got to do something about it.

asked the Minister of Social Security what steps she is taking to maintain the relative position of war pensioners in the light of the fact that war pensions are taken into account in computing income for the purpose of the rates rebate scheme.

None, Sir. I do not consider that the relative position of war pensioners has been adversely affected by the introduction of the rate rebate scheme.

Does not the right hon. Lady appreciate that the fact that war pensions are taken into account for the purpose of disqualifying applicants for rate rebates in the same way as other forms of income and other social benefits, diminishes the priority for war pensioners which it has been the policy of successive Governments over the last 20 years to uphold?

The right hon. Gentlemen's supplementary question shows that he is under a misapprehension about the nature of the preferences already enjoyed by war pensioners. This is a tax concession under the Rating Act, 1966, not a matter than can be compared with social security benefits, particularly those which come under supplementary benefits.

But is it not a fact that the more disabled a man is and the higher the allowances he draws the less benefit can he obtain under the rates rebate scheme, and that only a tiny fraction of the war disabled receive the new £3 additional allowance? Is not this a breach of the principle which has long obtained under both Governments that these disability pensions are not income but are compensation for service to one's country?

No, Sir, this is certainly not a breach. The disability pension serves two purposes. It serves as compensation for the hurt which a man has experienced and also for income which he has lost. The preferences for the ex-Service man, which we are determined shall continue, are very great, and I am glad that they are. If I felt that there was any injustice under the rates rebate scheme towards disabled pensioners, I should be the first to make strong representations. I do not think that there is.

asked the Minister of Social Security how many sick and how many unemployed men were affected by the wage-stop at the end of September, 1966.

On 27th September, 1966, the numbers of temporarily sick and of unemployed persons receiving National Assistance allowances which were restricted by reference to their normal earnings were 2,072 and 12,817 respectively.

I welcome my right hon. Friend's interest and deep concern in this matter. How soon does my hon. Friend hope that she will be in a position to announce to the House any changes which might help to deal with some of these cases?

I cannot add to what my right hon. Friend has already said. The wage-stop is part of the wider problem of low-wage earners, and, as my right hon. Friend has said, the Government are giving this matter urgent consideration.

What co-ordination is there with the Ministry of Labour to spotlight those who when in work receive such a low wage that they fall below the basic National Assistance minima? Has any such action been taken in the recent past?

There is full co-ordination on all these matters between the Minister of Labour and my right hon. Friend and her Department.

asked the Minister of Social Security what is the expected increase in the number of wage-stop cases as a result of the introduction of supplementary allowances on 28th November.

An increase is expected, but it is not possible to make any forecast of the number.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the concern that has been expressed, quite widely, as to the possible fairly large increase that might occur, and could he, in particular, say when the report on family circumstances is likely to be made available to the House?

On the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I repeat that we are giving this matter urgent consideration, and also that we are very concerned about it. I am afraid that I cannot give him an answer to the second part.

In relation to the previous question, can my hon. Friend indicate the number of child dependants and other dependants of people at present subject to the wage-stop?

No, Sir; not without notice.

asked the Minister of Social Security how much National Assistance was paid out in the Bathgate area in October, 1960, October, 1961, October, 1962, October, 1963, October, 1964, October, 1965, and October, 1966; or whether she will make an estimate of the percentage increase.

I regret that it is not possible to say what is the total amount of assistance in payment at any particular time in any specific local area, nor, consequently, to provide an estimate of the percentage increase in payments over a period for such an area.

Would my hon. Friend at least convey appreciation to both the local officers of his Department in the Bathgate area for the work that they and their staffs have been doing in this very difficult period?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I will certainly do that.

asked the Minister of Social Security what sum has been paid out in earnings-related unemployment benefit in the Bathgate area since the introduction of the scheme.

Separate figures are not kept for the earnings-related part of unemployment benefit. But the total amount paid out in unemployment benefit by the Bathgate employment exchange between the start of the earnings-related short-term benefits scheme on 6th October to the end of the month was £14,099.

In view of the special circumstances of Bathgate, will my hon. Friend consult with the Ministry of Labour about the legal implications of using earnings-related benefit supplements for off-the-job adult retraining?

I will certainly look into that.

asked the Minister of Social Security if she will take powers to amend the prescribed industrial diseases regulations so as to give entitlement to benefit to workers developing such diseases as mesothelioma and bladder cancer where the incubation period of the disease may be more than 18 years.

Amendment of the Prescribed Diseases Regulations would not assist workers who contract mesothelioma or bladder cancer as a result of exposure more than 18 years ago. New major legislation would be required.

Is it not wrong that the 30-odd cases which are known at the moment and the others which will inevitably arise of workers suffering from these diseases should be deprived of benefit because the average period of incubation for bladder cancer is 18 to 20 years and it may be as much as 50, and for mesothelioma it is 30 years and may be much longer? Would the Ministry please look at it again and see whether some simpler legislation or regulations could be introduced to cover the point?

I can assure my hon. Friend that this is the concern of both sides of the House. The fact is that the Industrial Diseases (Benefit) Act, 1954, was the parent Act by which some of these diseases became scheduled. If a specific disease is not scheduled under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1925, it would, as a result, not be included in the list of scheduled diseases. Nevertheless, I assure my hon. Friend that we are concerned about this very complex and difficult problem. We depend greatly on the advice of our medical advisers. We are doing our utmost to find an answer to some of these problems.

asked the Minister of Social Security what action she proposes to take in view of the fact that increases of 5s. for a single householder and 7s. 6d. for a married couple in the scales of supplementary benefit under the Ministry of Social Security Act of this year will not make good the fall in purchasing power since the scale rates were last increased in March, 1965.

None, Sir. The basic increases referred to broadly make good the fall in purchasing power since March, 1965, even for the minority who do not benefit from the long-term addition; and, of course, the rates of supplementary benefit have a considerably higher purchasing power than any in force prior to March, 1965.

Surely the Minister is aware that her own figures show that the retirement pension is worth 5s. 3d. less for a single person and 8s. 6d. less for a married couple than in March, 1965, and that roughly the same decline must be effective for supplementary benefits? Is not this a very serious decline in purchasing power, and is it not regrettable that the first victims of inflation are pensioners? Will she not do something about it?

There are a number of matters that one has to take into account when looking at the supplementary pensions and benefits. There is rent, for example. Whenever there is a rise, that is taken care of right away. But if the hon. Gentleman is really concerned about these old people, I am sure that he will be glad to know that the new rates of supplementary benefits that will come into effect on 28th November will for householders be about 27 per cent. higher than the National Assistance scales in October, 1964, as against an 8·8 per cent. increase in the cost of living as measured by the Retail Prices Index.

asked the Minister of Social Security how many pensioners currently receiving National Assistance will be granted additional benefit above the standard supplementary rate under the new arrangements to ensure that they will not be worse off after 28th November, 1966.

This figure will not be known until statistics have been collected after the new supplementary benefit scheme starts on 28th November.

Does the right hon. Lady agree with Professor Townsend's assessment that there will be many people who will be worse off under the new scheme, particularly the long-term unemployed, and will she take active steps to ensure that this is not so? Will she give an assurance that the new scheme will be at least as flexible as the National Assistance Board was in meeting need?

I am very grateful for that question, because I am able to say that there will not be a single person who will be worse off after 28th November. Schedule 7 takes care of that. I am also very glad to be able to tell the House that 450,000 new applications have been made for the new supplementary benefits. That shows that there certainly will be flexibility.

asked the Minister of Social Security how the new scales of supplementary benefit for retirement pensioners compare in purchasing power with the scale rates introduced in March, 1965, for retirement pensioners who were also getting the average rate of discretionary additions at that date.

The March, 1965, scale rate were equivalent to £4 0s. 9d. for a single person and £6 13s. 4d. for a married couple at current prices, compared with basic supplementary pension rates of £4 1s. and £6 13s. In addition, all supplementary pensioners will receive a long-term addition of 9s. a week, with further additions in exceptional cases, compared with average discretionary additions of 8s. 3d. in March, 1965.

Would the right hon. Lady agree that in the case of the vast majority of pensioners who are now getting a discretionary addition the new scheme will mean that in relation to the purchasing power of March, 1965, they will be getting less than they are at the present moment? Does she not feel in view of this that her fairy godmother image is wearing a bit thin?

I could not disagree more with the conclusions that the hon. Gentleman has reached. At least two-thirds of the existing supplementary pensioners will benefit from our new scheme, and not a single person among the others will be worse off.

But is it not a fact that about three-quarters of the pensioners were receiving extra before the new 9s. allowance? Does not this mean that at least the pensioners are not sharing in any increase in the standard of living, which was one of the right hon. Lady's most emphatic election pledges?

No, Sir. The answer that I have just given is that at least two-thirds will be much better off. I have been speaking to many old people, and they are delighted about the standard allowance that does away with the niggling inquiries into small expenses which they felt took away their dignity and self-respect.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will insert a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT showing the various home information services about which he answers Questions in the House.

asked the Paymaster-General if he will list the home information services about the co-ordination of which he will answer Questions.

The list comprises the home information services of all Departments of State; for these I would refer the hon. Members to the many books of reference which contain the information they seek.

We are grateful for any information from the right hon. Gentleman, but does he realise that the Government are acting corruptly in paying him between £7,000 and £8,000 a year for doing nothing? What advice does he give to the Prime Minister other than advice about the tapping of Members' telephones?

Order. That does not arise out of the Question.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At Question Time last Thursday, the Prime Minister said definitely that he did consult his right hon. Friend and get advice from him.