asked the Minister of Technology what is the forecast value of net new home orders for machine tools during 1967; and how much of this is accounted for by expected public sector purchasing.

Forecasts of this kind, for obvious reasons, can only be very tentative and it has not been the practice to make them. However, such information as we have suggests that home orders for machine tools in 1967 should not be significantly lower than in the present year.

Is not that an extraordinarily disappointing Answer in view of the Government's oft-declared target that one should raise manufacturing investment? What is the hon. Gentleman doing in his sponsoring capacity to try to ensure me a rather better answer and more generous figures?

We are carrying out a wide range of measures in order to encourage and maintain investment in machine tools, and we are also prepared to consider measures to sustain, should this be necessary, the level of machine tool demand. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the industry's order books are at a very high level—indeed, almost a record level.

How does the hon. Gentleman's main Answer tie up with the Government's estimate in the National Plan that machine tool production should increase by an average of 7·8 per cent. between 1964 and 1970?

It ties up perfectly well, because it is the essence of a national plan that one is forecasting over a five-year period what one considers to be the growth of production and output of a particular industry. It is precisely the need to do this, balanced against the often short term fluctuations of demand for an industry, which makes planning so particularly valuable.

asked the Minister of Technology whether he proposes to take steps to help to develop new industry in and around Plymouth, as recommended in the recent Associated Industrial Consultants report, a copy of which has been sent to him.

When the councils concerned have considered the report, they will no doubt be discussing it with the regional council and the planning board on which my Department is represented. Last July I established an industrial liaison centre in Plymouth.

I am grateful for that Reply. Would my right hon. Friend ensure that when those policy decisions are made full consultation will take place with the Service Departments, particularly the Navy Department?

Yes, Sir, although, since the consultants' report has not yet been considered by the people who are to consider it, it is a little early for me to say any more than that.

asked the Minister of Technology what plans he has for establishing an institute of advanced machine tool and control technology.

asked the Minister of Technology when work is scheduled to start on the Institute of Machine Tool and Control Technology at East Kilbride.

The institution will begin work as soon as the director has been appointed.

Can my hon. Friend give an idea as to when that will be? When will the institute start operations?

The appointments will take place just as soon as the ordinary selection procedures can be completed. As my hon. Friend will be aware, in the opening stages the institute will make use of the facilities now available both at the N.E.L. and at Strathclyde University.

Will consideration be given to the directors including one representative of the motor industry in Scotland?

That is an interesting suggestion and we will certainly consider it.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the action he has taken in regard to the proposed television rental increase from 5s. per week to 7s. as from 26th July by Messrs. Sedgley Rentals Limited, Droylsden, Manchester.

The Ministry of Technology is examining this case on the basis of information received from the Company. My right hon. Friend has not yet reached a decision, but when he has he will communicate with my hon. Friend.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this Reply is not dissimilar from what I was told on 11th August? Does not he appreciate that a 14 per cent. increase of this nature for old-age pensioners contrasts unfavourably with what happens in the salary and wages sector? It is about time that we were much firmer in the prices sector.

My right hon. Friend will try to expedite his decision and I do not want to make any further comment until then.

In fairness to the firm named in the Question, may I ask whether, as a service, it is not covered by the Selective Employment Tax?

Yes, Sir. The Selective Employment Tax applies in this case.

asked the Minister of Technology what is his latest estimate of the total production of motor vehicles in Great Britain during 1967; and how much of the total production he expects to be sold abroad.

asked the Minister of Technology how many staff in his Department are concerned with the motor manufacturing industry.

asked the Minister of Technology how many staff he has working on the present and future prospects of the motor industry and the impact of Government policy on it; what are their qualifications; and what forecasts are being prepared of this industry's output and exports in the years ahead.

Seventeen staff at Headquarters are engaged on problems concerned with the motor industry, eight full time and the rest for a substantial part of their time. Of the total of 17, nine joined the Department with relevant experience in the Board of Trade, and four others have qualifications in engineering or economics.

No firm forecasts of the industry's output and exports are possible, but on the basis of current policies I expect total output in 1967 would be slightly lower than in 1966; although exports particularly of commercial vehicles, parts and components, are expected to rise.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that exports of private cars will fall in 1967? Would he also agree that the correlation between domestic demand and export sales has been so precise that that reduction in exports is in no small part due to the squeeze which has fallen disproportionately on the motor car industry?

I do not agree that exports of cars will fall next year and, therefore, the second part of the question does not arise. In fact, the correlation between exports and home demand is not a fixed feature of motor car manufacture.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the staff he has mentioned has the right sort of experience as well as the qualifications to tackle the job? Is its job simply forecasting and preparing statistics in consultation with the motor firms, or the more positive job of trying to jerk particularly B.M.C. into an era of better labour relations and more sustained growth in output?

Labour relations is a matter not for me but for the Ministry of Labour, but that reminds me to tell my hon. Friend that, of course, a number of other Departments are concerned with the motor car industry and that other Departments of my own Ministry, for example, the N.E.L., are doing work which has some bearing on the motor car industry. But I am still not satisfied with the arrangements inside the Ministry, and I shall be taking steps to strengthen the staff.

As this industry exports about £500 million or more worth of goods, is it not about time that we either had a "Little Neddy" for it, or something like a "Little Neddy" for each of the five main producers, so that we could start at last some purposive future planning of the industry?

I well appreciate what my hon. Friend is saying. In fact, N.A.C.M.M.I., which has been going for a very long time, has done much of the work which in other industries is done by "Little Neddies", but consideration is being given to the establishment of a "Little Neddy" and a Question to the First Secretary would be appropriate.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that output this year is going much below last year's levels? He now says that output for next year will probably not be up to this year's level. Is not that an extraordinary commentary on a party which came to power on its supposed ability to provide for steady growth?

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that the Measures taken in July were designed to curtail home demand. What is interesting is that the motor car industry is likely to be able to produce the same number of cars next year with a reduced labour force, and that, of course, is what productivity is all about.

asked the Minister of Technology what forecast he makes of the motor industry's output in the year ending August 1967; and how this compares with the preceding year.

In the year ending 31st July, 1966, the industry produced 1,718,172 cars and 451,969 commercial vehicles. The Ministry of Technology cannot forecast the industry's output for the current year to 31st July, 1967, since this will depend on many factors that cannot at present be foreseen, but we expect it to be lower than in the previous period.

Is it not about time that we had some planning so that we could have a better idea of what output in the next twelve months will be? As this industry is almost an indicator of the whole economy, and as this figure could mean that B.M.C., for example, will be producing 70 per cent. or less of capacity for the next twelve months, is that a very good thing?

I would not like to estimate at what percentage of capacity B.M.C. or any other car manufacturer will be running during the coming year because so much depends on the capacity to raise exports. I do not accept that exports are a fixed proportion of total output. I believe that exports are something which lies very much within the powers of firms.

If the Parliamentary Secretary cannot forecast the output of the motor car industry for next year, how in the name of common sense do the Government attempt to forecast it to the end of 1970, as they do in the National Plan, in which the rate is given as 4·6 per cent.?

The hon. Gentleman is making precisely the same error in relation to the motor car industry which he made a few minutes ago in relation to the machine tool industry. It is the very essence of national planning that meaningful estimates can be made of what demand will be over a period of years, estimates which could not be hoped to be made over a few months or twelve months. That is the essence of the difference between us.

In view of the Minister's statement that next year's exports will be better, how does the Parliamentary Secretary expect exports to go up when price competitiveness abroad depends absolutely on a healthy home market which is rapidly diminishing?

I do not accept that price competitiveness depends wholly on the degree of sales which can be made at home, or on a percentage of sales or volume of output at home. It depends on other factors which enter into productivity, including labour costs. In this respect, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the Government have made a positive contribution through S.E.T., the export rebate scheme and in other ways.

asked the Minister of Technology what information he has received about revised investment and expansion programmes within the motor manufacturing industry resulting from the reduction in domestic demand for motor vehicles.

The President of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, Sir Patrick Hennessy, indicated to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 31st October last that the motor industry expected to reduce by 30 per cent. its planned expenditure on investment in the coming year. According to my information, this will probably take the form of reduced expenditure on replacement equipment, rather than curtailment of expansion plans.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the only manufacturing company which is not reducing its investment programme is the British Motor Corporation which is increasing investment in order to increase its production through more productivity? Will he therefore confirm that both reductions in investment in three-quarters of the industry and increase in investment in one small part of it will result in reductions of the labour force throughout the industry?

The figures given by Sir Patrick Hennessy were given in his capacity as President of the S.M.M.T. If my hon. Friend wants to put down a Question about particular firms, I will see whether it can be answered, but in practice the possibility of increasing exports holds for the industry now its great opportunity to utilise its capacity and stimulate its own investment.

Has the right hon. Gentleman considered the secondary effects of that 30 per cent. reduction of investment in the motor car industry, the effects on the secondary industries which supply the industry with both capital goods and components?

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, exports of components are going ahead very rapidly now and for the October figure we had a 19 per cent. increase over that of last year.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps his Department is taking to improve the managerial efficiency and export potential of the motor manufacturing industry.

The motor industry has already set itself these objectives and everything my Department is doing in this matter is designed to help it.

Could I press my right hon. Friend further on the question of a "Little Neddy" for the motor industry? Is he aware that many of us believe that this job would be far better left to a body set up by the industry, like a "Little Neddy", rather than by a Government Department, such as the Ministry of Technology? Would he give us some sort of date when we can expect a "Little Neddy" for this industry?

The question of a "Little" E.D.C. is for the First Secretary. This is not a conflict between a "Little Neddy" and the Ministry of Technology. In so far as there is any difficulty here it is where a "Little Neddy" would fit into the N.A.C.M.M.I., which brings leaders on both sides of industry and other Government Departments together under my chairmanship.

Notwithstanding the earlier Answer given by my right hon. Friend, would he not agree, on reflection, that the export potential of the industry referred to in this Question would best be improved by—if the record of 1963–64–65 is anything to go on—stimulating home demand as well as exports?

My hon. Friend keeps returning to the idea that there is a fixed ratio between home demand and exports, and neither the evidence of this country's motor industry nor of other countries' motor industries confirms this. In the case of tractors and commercial vehicles, the ratio is quite different. Therefore my hon. Friend should not press this point beyond a certain degree.

asked the Minister of Technology what proposals he has for expanding the scale of the National Computing Centre; and whether he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to the hon. Members for the Isle of Ely (Sir H. Legge-Bourke) and Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. J. H. Osborn) on 18th October.—[Vol. 734, c. 9–11.]

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that his colleague Lord Snow, in another place earlier this year, when he was a member of the Ministry, forecast that there would be a requirement for 15,000 systems analysts by 1970? As there are only 5,000 today, does the hon. Gentleman mean that he has no proposals for the expansion of the National Computing Centre in view of this vast gap?

On the contrary, one important matter with which the National Computing Centre and the Government as a whole are concerned is the supply of systems analysts.

asked the Minister of Technology when the statistics of the number of qualified British scientists and engineers who have emigrated to the United States of America since 1963 will be available.

Complete figures are not available for years since 1963 when certain statistical returns on emigration were discontinued. My right hon. Friend has been looking into whether any useful estimates can be made from other sources.

I appreciate that Answer. Does my hon. Friend recognise that it is extremely difficult for companies to plan long and short term if these figures are not available? Can he say whether he maintains a register of the reasons given for emigration and, if not, will he consider doing so?

I appreciate that it is most important that we have these figures, and it is for this reason that we are making efforts to obtain at any rate good estimates of them. I will consider my hon. Friend's suggestion about a register.

Has the hon. Gentleman considered using the resources of the professional engineering institutions to obtain this information, since they have the addresses of all their members and would be able to supply him with the numbers of those who have gone abroad?

The resources of the professional engineering institutions are certainly one of the sources which we are trying to tap.

Would the hon. Gentleman recognise that on both sides of the House this problem is taken extremely seriously? Will he consider in conjunction with his right hon. Friend an early social survey into the reasons why the emigration rate of scientists and engineers is rising?

We certainly regard this as a matter of the utmost importance, and the Committee on Manpower Resources for Science and Technology has set up a working group on emigration under Dr. F. E. Jones, managing director of Mullard, which will take all these matters into consideration and make proposals.

asked the Minister of Technology what representations were received from the Scottish Council by his predecessor on the subject of bio-engineering; and what action is being taken.

The Scottish Council suggested that bio-engineering could become a growth industry of interest to my right hon. Friend's Department. The Ministry of Technology is discussing with the Health Departments and the Medical Research Council the possibility of establishing an institute to provide a link between research and technology in this sphere. We and the Health Departments are identifying user needs for discussion with industry.

When is it hoped to get results from this?

These discussions are going forward, but I would not like at this stage to give my hon. Friend a date.

asked the Minister of Technology how many institutes of technology he has set up in universities, colleges of advanced technology, and elsewhere, respectively; for what purpose they were set up; how they have been financed; and what has been the cost borne by his Department.

None yet, Sir. Preparatory work is in hand and the first institute, at East Kilbride, will begin as soon as the appropriate appointments are made.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what number is envisaged and whether arrangements will be made to explain to us what his proposals are, because these institutes are neither research associations, universities, nor colleges of technology? They seem to be a new breed of activity for scientific development. Would the Minister make a statement about his proposals for the future of the institutes?

I will ask my right hon. Friend to consider this. These institutes in a sense fill a gap between existing research stations and universities and, to some extent, they are hybrid. Their origin can be traced back to the Fielden Report, which the hon. Gentleman will remember. There are a number of proposals at present being considered for new institutes, but we are not yet ready to make a statement.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that for a large number of reasons it is very much better that these institutes should be set up within a university campus rather than being set up in isolation?

Yes, I would agree with that, and I am sure that wherever possible this will be the pattern.

asked the Minister of Technology whether, in view of the setting up of an advisory committee on science and technology under Sir Solly Zuckerman, he will make a statement about the future rôle and work of the Advisory Council on Technology.

The setting up of the new Advisory Committee does not call for any change in the rôle and work of the Advisory Council on Technology.

Can the Minister say to what extent he will be able to determine policy and to what extent it has now been taken out of his hands?

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made absolutely clear when he announced the new Committee, its rôle is a strategic one, covering the whole range of our national effort, whereas the Advisory Council on Technology brings into the Ministry of Technology some of the most distinguished industrialists and academics in the country who will advise me on the work that I do. There is no conflict whatever here.

In spite of the rather confusing announcement made by the Prime Minister on this subject, will the right hon. Gentleman draw his right hon. Friend's attention to the fact that the reception of this new Committee has been distinctly cool in the scientific Press?

In this case confusion, like beauty, is in the mind of the beholder.

asked the Minister of Technology what steps he is taking to ensure that Ministers and their senior advisers are made aware of the potentialities of computer systems for forward planning, model building and decision-taking, as distinct from routine data processing.

Computers offer a most valuable aid to management. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is responsible for Civil Service training in this area. My Department's rôle is advisory.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that in the public sector, as, to be perfectly fair, in the private sector, the vast majority of computers are at present being used for routine data processing work and that their potentialities for decision-making, model building and general forward thinking have been grossly underestimated?

I absolutely agree. In the Post Office we were using computers for the optimum deployment of Post Office vans in London and even for the optimum deployment of postmen going on their rounds in Norwich. There is no doubt that in the long run, full scale computerisation of Government operations will not only enable us to reduce the number of administrators, but will provide much-needed help for decision-making in Government, which is very difficult.

Will my right hon. Friend use all the pressure he can to ensure that industry makes use of computers?

The problems in Government and industry are curiously similar—both want to be relieved of slave clerical labour and to get assistance in forecasting for good decision-making.

asked the Minister of Technology what contribution Her Majesty's Government make to the International Research and Development Company in Newcastle; what proposals there are for further backing in the immediate future; and whether he will make a statement.

As part of the superconductivity project the Ministry of Technology is currently supporting work under contract with the company to a total amount of £43,000. Proposals for support in other areas are at present being examined by the Department.

Is my hon. Friend aware that during the three-year life of this research organisation it has received the backing of foreign Governments as much as it has received backing from our own Government? Is it not utterly crazy that this organisation is now having to hawk its wares around North America in order to survive? Surely we can stimulate British industry to use its products and research?

I very much hope that the services of this company will be found of use to British industry, but my hon. Friend would agree that I.R.D. has had considerable support from the Government.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will review the present anomalous position of sporting organisations with regard to their recognition as charities.

I do not know what anomalies my hon. Friend has in mind. In order to be recognised as charities, sporting organisations, like any other bodies, have to show that they are established for charitable purposes only.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the classification in respect of charities concerning sporting organisations is hopelessly outmoded? Will he look into this with a view to stimulating participation in the amateur sports other than riding and shooting?

I cannot share my hon. Friend's view, which I would like to. As an ex-Member for Blackley, I would like to support everything that my hon. Friend says. I cannot share his view that this is outmoded. The Recreational Charities Act, 1958, which deals with these matters, is a fairly recent piece of legislation.

Will my right hon. Friend represent to the Chancellor that many sporting organisations are gravely embarrassed by present taxation, and that this is defeating the whole policy of the Government over sport, to which we give such strong support?

It is right that we should support sport and that we should do it in the way in which we are doing it, namely, by direct grants. Giving support by way of Income Tax relief on the grounds that it is a charity is an entirely different matter.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what representations have been made to the Government by the Sports Council about the effect of S.E.T. and whether the increase in grant made in the present year is more than sufficient to offset the increase in costs imposed by this new tax?

No such representations have been brought to my attention.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in view of the importance of national savings in the present economic difficulties, if he will set up an inquiry into the work and structure of the National Savings Movement, and include in its terms of reference the possibility of handing over the work of national savings to the new Public Corporation which is to be responsible for the work of the General Post Office.

I do not think that a specific inquiry into the work of the National Savings movement is called for. My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General made a statement on 15th November about the future of the Post Office Savings Department.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the great bulk of national saving is done through trustee savings banks and the General Post Office? Is there any need to have a separate Government Department employing many people responsible for national savings? Should not my right hon. Friend be encouraging the voluntary element?

The National Savings Movement is largely a voluntary element, and I think that it commands widespread praise for the ability with which it has adapted itself to changing conditions. I do not think that my hon. Friend would cast any aspersions on the work which it is doing.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the best way in which he can help the National Savings Movement would be to tie repayment to the cost of living and so offset the evil effects of inflation on savers?

No, that would be a quite wrong thing to do. Our object as a nation should be to overcome inflation and not relate increasing payments to the possibility of it.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is satisfied with the current rate of savings; and if he will make a statement on future policy.

The general level of savings in the first half of the year remains high. As I attach great importance to this I am always ready to consider ways of increasing the flow.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that all sources of small savings are being tapped and that the institution of a State public unit trust would not tap this source, which is probably quite large?

The question of a State unit trust has been frequently considered, and by the National Savings Movement, and I understand that views about its efficacy are changing. I am ready to keep it under consideration, but I would not want to reach a final conclusion or, it now. There is evidence that small savings are forthcoming to a large extent through the medium of National Savings and also the Post Office savings investment accounts.

Would not the Chancellor agree that even if current savings are high they are very much lower than they were? Does he not think that urgent action should be taken to rectify this?

I am not sure about that. I do not think that they have fallen away very much. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Let us wait and see. My own recollection is that national savings are keeping up quite as well as they have been over recent years.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will introduce legislation to enable Her Majesty's Government to take action against those British companies which sold sterling in large quantities earlier this year and thus created the run on the £ sterling.

No, Sir.

Is it not a fact that it was British companies which in the main sold hundreds of millions of £s earlier this year and not so much Continental firms'? Would not my right hon. Friend agree that at a time when British workers are refused wage increases because of the national interest they should know that there are numerous British banking firms which sold Britain short a few months ago?

No, that is not my information. United Kingdom residents cannot indulge in outright speculation. Their spot transactions are strictly limited by exchange control. They are allowed to buy or sell forward only in order to cover general trading or commercial transactions. [Interruption.] I would get on much better without your help.

Order. I am not trying to help the right hon. Gentleman.

You are invaluable, Sir.

I have had a careful examination made into this, and, although there have been strong reports to the contrary in the newspapers, it is not my information that this selling took place to any large extent by British residents. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend may not agree, but I have examined the facts; I am not aware that he has. We do not get anywhere by pursuing will o' the wisps which do not exist.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what action he is taking to reduce the growth of Government spending.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what directives he has given to Government Departments to undertake a specific and formal cost reduction programme.

Departments have been instructed to conduct a searching reconsideration of the need for every part of their proposals for inclusion in the Estimates for 1967–68, which I shall lay before the House in due course.

But why are the Government continuously trying to kill the goose which lays the golden egg? Surely the high level of Government spending is a direct cause of the fall in industrial production. How can we have new wealth for the social needs unless we are able to increase industrial production? Will the right hon. Gentleman stop being so complacent about this?

That comes very ill from a former Minister in a Government under which defence spending was quite unrestrained. We have succeeded in curbing and reining back unnecessary expenditure to a degree never undertaken by our predecessors. It is not right to say that the general level of taxation is higher than it is in other countries. The average level of taxation in this country is well in line with that of our competitors overseas.

Would my right hon. Friend recognise that any attack which he makes, particularly on Government military expenditure overseas, will have the fullest support of many Members on this side of the House?

It is the Government's declared policy to reduce overseas military expenditure, which has been too high in relation to the total burdens which we carry, and we shall continue to pursue that aim.

Would the right hon. Gentleman say whether at the level of Government expenditure which he is contemplating for next year he will have to lake an increasing proportion of the gross national product in total taxation?

When the Estimates are laid, I am sure that the hon. Lady will want to examine them. But I can tell her that we have been able to prune back a great deal of the luxuriant expenditure which her Government left behind.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has been the increase in numbers of public employees in both Government and local government service since 15th October, 1964.

The increase in the Civil Service, both industrial and non-industrial, excluding the Post Office, between 1st October, 1964, and 1st July, 1966, was 9,000. Including the Post Office, the increase was 26,000. As regards local government, there was a rise of 159,047 in the two years.

As these are such serious figures, would the right hon. Gentleman say what the increase in Government spending is to pay for these additional employees?

The simplest way of calculating the figure is to allow about £1,000 per civil servant. But in order to put the figures in perspective, I should say that the proportionate increase among centrally employed civil servants in the last nearly two years is broadly in line with the increase over the first four years of this decade.

While appreciating that if we increase the social services we need more civil servants, is it not wrong that with 440,000 men in the Forces we have 350,000 civil servants looking after them?

My hon. Friend rightly points out that if we increase services we have to increase our manpower to carry them. The House will recollect that, in addition to increased work, there has been a reduction in Civil Service hours of work.

Do not the figures given by the right hon. Gentleman reveal a certain amount of luxuriant growth which might be a suitable subject of pruning?

I am grateful for what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said in relation to the figure which I gave for increases in the number of local government employees. This is a matter which one should look into very carefully.

Is there any indication that when we have a sufficient supply of computers we shall have fewer civil servants?

I think that that is a rather different question.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will review the sight standards for applicants seeking to be appointed as officers of Customs and Excise.

A review is already in train. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as a conclusion is reached.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer how soon negotiations with civil servants in the various drawing office grades are to be resumed and completed, in accordance with the assurance contained in a letter dated 26th September, 1966, from the official staff side of the Whitley Council.

As soon as practicable after the White Paper on the criteria to govern increases in incomes during the period of severe restraint has been published, and after discussions with the staff side of the National Whitley Council on its application to the Civil Service have been completed.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that does not quite answer my Question? I was asking him when the discussions between the official side and the staff side would be resumed and completed. May we take it that we do not have to wait for the period of severe restraint for them at least to re-start?

I thought that I had given that precise answer to my hon. Friend by saying "as soon as practicable … after the White Paper has been published". The White Paper is expected very shortly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this group of civil servants has been unfairly treated compared with other grades in the Civil Service who have had a Whitley Council rise? Will he give a guarantee that the rise of at least a 4½ per cent. cost of living bonus will be retrospective?

These are matters for discussion.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimates have been made of the effect on Great Britain's balance of payments of the large-scale in-flow of immigrants into Great Britain.

This depends on many factors and there is no complete answer. However, the current study being made by the National Institute for Economic and Social Research will, I hope, go some way to answer the hon. Gentleman's question.

Would not the Chancellor agree that, in the absence of considerable spare capital capacity, large-scale immigration leads to excess domestic demand and thus creates a worsening in the balance of payments position? Should not this factor be taken into consideration when deciding the scale on which immigration is allowed?

This is what the study is now trying to evaluate. I would hope that our immigration policy would never be determined purely on balance of payments considerations. But there are a number of factors to be put on both sides. There is clearly a long-term gain from the work of the immigrants who arrive here. Against that must be set some of the factors which the hon. Gentleman has enumerated. I think that this study will provide some valuable information.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the supplementary question of the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. John Hall) was deliberately misleading and mischievous and that, in computing this, one must recognise the enormous contribution which immigrants have made to the economy of this country and in a number of respects?

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the revision of the Public Office Rules will be completed.

I hope soon to consult the staff interests about revised Public Office Rules. When their views have been considered, a Statutory Instrument will be made.

Would not the Minister agree that these rules have been under revision for more than 18 months? Does he not appreciate that in some cases pensions are dependent upon the publication of the new regulations, because no decision can be made until they are published?

I recognise that these matters are complicated and need very careful consideration, but I think that the Answer I have given should satisfy the hon. Member.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the policy of the Government is still to give people further time to hand in gold coins under S.I., 1966, No. 438.

Yes, if there is good reason for the delay in complying with the Order.

Statutory powers having been taken, who decides whether a person retaining, say, half-a-dozen gold coins should be prosecuted, and what criteria are applied?

The position is the normal one: the Treasury is interested in the matter, but the person who decides whether a prosecution should take place is the Director of Public Prosecutions.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in how many cases dividends have been reduced since the wages and incomes policy was imposed on 20th July.

206 publicly quoted companies have announced reduced dividends.

How many have been increased? Would not the Chancellor agree that most directors of public companies have tried to play ball with him in his policy?

Yes, Sir. About 880 dividends have been announced. About 570 have been published as being the same, 206 have been reduced, and there is a balance of 108, some of which have increased dividends within the policy or under consideration by the Treasury.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what techniques of investment appraisal are used by his Department in determining the economic viability of any proposal for a new computer in any part of the public service.

All Government Departments submitting proposals for the purchase of automatic data processing equipment are required to demonstrate their economic viability using the discounted cash flow technique wherever this is appropriate.

Will the right hon. Gentleman recognise that we are very pleased that the Treasury is now using the d.c.f. approach? Will he also take into account that there is that part of viability of the computer that is not economically measurable but is of importance in decision-taking?

We will, of course, take into account the matters which the hon. Member has mentioned. I would simply add that the d.c.f. technique has been well known to the Treasury for a great number of years.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he will make regulations under Section 7 of the Clean Air Act, 1956, imposing requirements for measuring and recording dust emissions from certain classes of plant.

Draft regulations are being prepared which it is hoped to circulate to interested organisations for comment early next year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the decision to publish this next year will be widely welcomed throughout the country?