asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had from the college of education principals on his policy that teacher training provision will be made for male non-graduates in Scotland.

None, Sir. I understand that the college of education principals welcome the decision to admit men to the three-year course for primary school teachers.

While thanking my hon. Friend for his answer, is it not true to say that the college principals have shown a remarkable consistency in this advocacy of non-graduate male teachers?

As I have said, the college of education principals have welcomed this decision, and we are making further places available at the colleges of education to cater for the men who will be coming into them.

How many male non-graduates does the Under-Secretary expect to come forward?

It is rather difficult at this time to give a firm estimate. One thinks that, potentially, there might be about 400 a year, but one would not expect that to happen in 1967. Again it is difficult to estimate firmly, but we might have about 200 coming forward then. Certainly we hope for that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if the Highlands and Islands Development Board will publish an annual report; and when the first report will be published.

I hope that the Board's first report, covering the period from 1st November, 1965, to 31st December, 1966, will be published reasonably early in 1967, but I cannot as yet give a definite date.

In view of the great interest in the work of the Board and its importance to the Highlands of Scotland, would the Minister be prepared to grant a debate on the first annual report in the Scottish Grand Committee?

That is not for me. That is really a matter for the Leader of the House.

Will the Minister of State ask the Board if it can include in its report not only the money which the Government have put into the Highlands, but what by increased taxation they have taken out?

That is not the Board's responsibility, of course. Its responsibility is for the exercise of its own powers in the Highlands.

Will the Minister be able to say whether or not a list of companies which have received financial assistance from the Board will be a part of the first report?

I cannot say whether it will or not, but I should have thought not. One does not usually publish lists of companies receiving financial assistance from the Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, in view of the decision of district councils in the Western Isles to give Gaelic equal validity with English in the conduct of business, and of the need for the status of the native language of Scotland to be clarified, if he will set up a commission to look into this matter.

I do not think that the appointment of a commission would be justified.

As there is so much evidence of growing interest in the language, would the Secretary of State consider looking at this further or, by some other means, giving further incentive to those who are doing so much for the future of the language?

I welcome the indication from the hon. Gentleman's Question that there is growing interest. He will be aware that, following the meeting which I had with the deputation from An Comunn, we have already announced that we shall be doubling the grant for the year 1967 from £500 to £1,000.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking to prevent unemployment exceeding 100,000.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is now taking to bring unemployment in Scotland within the confines of the national average.

I would refer hon. Members to my reply to the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) on 9th November [Vol. 735, c. 1281]. Since then substantial increases in retraining facilities and temporary increases in investment grants have been announced.

Can my right hon. Friend tell the House when unemployment in Scotland last reached the figure of 100,000 in the month of December?

It was in 1962, but my hon. Friend will be aware that that was only the start of a six-month period when in no month did it go below 100,000.

Is my right hon. Friend confident that these measures will bring unemployment in Scotland into line with his statement in July of this year?

I am confident that, as a result of what we are doing in respect of the long-term economic situation in Scotland, in time we shall be able to improve the position considerably. The indications that we have of the incidence of unemployment throughout the country, bearing in mind its relationship with Scotland, gives us some reason to think that already a certain amount of the balance has been redressed as a result of the work of the past two or three years—not just by this party, but by the others as well—in the diversification and modernisation of Scottish industry.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that everyone on both sides of the House is most anxious to see this position improved, and does not he agree that what he has told us today—and I am sure that there are other things that he is doing—is a very disappointing Answer to the Question in view of the great anxiety all over Scotland?

I think that the problems in relation to the present situation are related to the weakness of the country, and I think also that the right hon. Gentleman should be the last one to get up and talk about this, bearing in mind for how long, and for what continuous period, his party had control of the whole situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with the Highland Development Board on educational and recreational projects in the Highlands.

My right hon. Friend has not had any discussions with the Board about specific educational and recreational projects. The Board has, however, given him its views on secondary education in the Highlands and Islands, and these are being carefully considered in relation to proposals of the Highland education authorities.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that my interest in this matter arises from the fact that one of the schools in my constituency has a project in Argyllshire, and will he have discussions with his right hon. Friend about this project?

I am very well aware of my hon. Friend's interest in this. I think he knows that this has been discussed at quite considerable length, but I also think he knows that the problem is principally one for the Department for Education and Science and not for my right hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now publish a full report of his findings on the Cadco affair.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answers I gave him on 30th November—[Vol. 737, c. 106.] and 14th December.—[Vol. 738, c. 85.].

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I shall have a few caustic comments to make on that reply within the hour?

It would surprise me if my hon. Friend did not have caustic remarks to make, but I am not going to anticipate the reply to those comments.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many houses he estimates will be completed in 1966.

I cannot give a precise figure.

Can the hon. Gentleman explain how it was that in March of this year, only nine months ago, the Government and all hon. Gentlemen opposite were able to say almost precisely that the figure of 40,000 would certainly be exceeded? How can the hon. Gentleman justify that situation when, during the last three months, the number of unemployed building workers in Scotland has risen by more than 3,000?

There are nine days to go to the end of the year, since no self-respecting person in Scotland works on Hogmanay, and it would be foolish to try to give a precise figure at this stage. Public sector completions are reported to us monthly. Private sector completions are reported to us quarterly. The last return which we received was in September. I have discussed this with the builders, and in future they will report monthly. I welcome this, because we shall then be in a better position to give these figures earlier.

Will my hon. Friend assure us that he is not depending on Santa Claus?

No, Sir.

With only nine days to go, can the hon. Gentleman say whether the figure of 40,000, Which was given in the Scottish Labour Party election manifesto, Election Special, will be reached?

We shall certainly beat ten years of Conservative rule.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what specific proposals for action he has received from the Scottish Economic Planning Board since it was established.

The Board's main function is to co-ordinate the work of the Government Departments concerned with the formulation and execution of plans and proposals for the development of the Scottish economy. Much of the Board's work is reflected in the detailed schemes contained in the White Paper on the Scottish Economy, but the Board has also been involved in many other questions on which I and the Scottish Economic Planning Council have required its advice.

My Question asked whether any specific proposals had been made. Has the Board made any specific proposals? If not, will the House be advised if specific proposals come forward?

The purpose of the Economic Planning Council, as distinct from the Planning Board, has been explained time and again in the House. The Board consists mainly of civil servants representing their own Departments, who meet, who advise, and who also accept advice from the Secretary of State through the Planning Council, and these Departments go on in relation to the execution of these plans.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it a little odd that he cannot say whether or not specific proposals are being made by these people? They always were by the development group in the old days. I see no reason why these distinguished civil servants sitting and working together should not draw up plans.

Of course they do, in relation to transport, labour and, as I announced in answer to a previous Question, in relation to retraining facilities. These plans are discussed, agreement is reached and then the work is carried out. It is seen in the actual work of the Scottish Office and the other Departments.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what percentage of male students failed to complete their courses at Scotland's universities in each of the last three years.

This information is not available; the latest information on student failure for British universities as a whole is given in paragraphs 80–85 of the Report on University Development 1957 to 1962, Cmnd. 2247.

I am sorry that my hon. Friend cannot give this information. Would not he agree that had the non-graduate teaching courses for men, as now proposed by my right hon. Friend, been in operation for the previous months, this would have helped to improve teacher supply in Scotland, particularly when we think of the failures in universities who might have opted for these courses?

Yes, Sir, but I would not like to think that the people who are to come into the colleges of education will be looked on merely as failed university students. I agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's question that these new proposals will improve teacher supply.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he is taking to reduce the number of road accidents in Scotland.

New and improved roads, traffic management, publicity and education are all helping to keep down the number of accidents. But care, courtesy and consideration by all road users can make the biggest contribution.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the general grant apportionment for road safety is no higher than that of last year? Would not he agree that, due to the appalling number of accidents in Scotland in recent weeks, some further consideration must be given to this question?

I very much agree. This is why my right hon. Friend and the Minister of Transport have set up the National Road Safety Advisory Council In his Question my hon. Friend is emphasising the point that it is the desire of local authorities to push ahead with this matter which determines the level of expenditure, and I hope that we can proceed further.

Is the hon. Gentleman able to say whether the 50 miles per hour speed limit on certain roads in Scotland has had any effect?

It is too early to make an assessment. The Road Research Laboratory is taking the figures, and we hope to discuss this issue with the Laboratory in the near future.

Would not a restoration of the cuts in the Scottish road programme make a signal contribution in this direction?

No, Sir. If the hon. Gentleman looks at this a little more closely, I think he will see that they were small and were not applied primarily for accident reasons but for economic ones.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his policy regarding fee-paying schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will withdraw Exchequer grants from independent and grant-aided schools in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend regards education authority fee-paying and other selective schools as inconsistent with a system of comprehensive education and he has asked Edinburgh and Glasgow—the authorities mainly involved—to review the future organisation of such schools in that context.

So far as grant-aided schools are concerned, local authorities were asked, in Circular No. 600, to consult the governing bodies of these schools as to the part they could play in a comprehensive system. Consideration of any wider question affecting the future of these schools would not be appropriate at this stage.

As regards independent schools, we are in the first instance awaiting the report of the Public Schools Commission. Independent schools in Scotland do not receive Exchequer grants.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that what he expects in the pattern of education which is emerging is that these schools will cease and will disappear?

As I have said, we regard this as inconsistent with a comprehensive reorganisation. We are now awaiting the proposals of the two authorities which I have mentioned.

As my hon. Friend has given what is obviously a rather long-term picture, will he consider in the short-term the introduction of responsibilities in return for the considerable State aid given to grant-aided schools, similar to those contained in the Direct Grant School Regulations, 1959, as subsequently amended, which apply in England?

I think that the background and circumstances of grant-aided schools in Scotland are rather different from the situation in England. As I have said, these wider issues—and what my hon. Friend has just outlined is a wider issue—are not appropriate to be dealt with at this stage.

Is the Minister aware that he has just made a very grave statement? Would he resist all attempts to remove parental freedom of choice in education?

I do not think that it is a question of parental freedom of choice. It is a question of fee-paying in corporation schools, which incidentally does not apply to schools south of the Border. So I would not take that to be a particularly valid argument for Scotland. For the vast majority of children in Scotland and in the vast majority of local authority areas, there is no question of fee-paying in corporation or local authority schools.

What is the point of having local authorities at all if the Government are to give them no freedom about the pattern of education within their own areas?

Nothing which is being done by this Government with regard to the pattern of organisation is any different in principle from what had been done by right hon. and hon. Members opposite. We are still working under exactly the same legislation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what instructions he has given to the Scottish Special Housing Association in relation to investment in areas of above-average unemployment.

The Association's future building programme is designed mainly to support industrial development. A substantial part of it will be in areas of high unemployment.

Does my hon. Friend realise that not only Government supporters view with great enthusiasm the expansion in the activities of the Scottish Special Housing Association which has been encouraged by the present Government? Do we have an assurance that every possible opportunity is taken to use the S.S.H.A. as an instrument of regional development according to certain priorities?

Yes; I am quite convinced—so is my right hon. Friend—that this is so. This year we would hope that we can get more than 2,000 houses completed by the S.S.H.A. for the first time since 1960. In my hon. Friend's constituency and in the adjacent part of Midlothian we hope to start 1,850 houses in the next three years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to encourage the provision of houses for sale in central Scotland.

I have had three meetings with private house builders in Scotland, and a working party has been set up in conjunction with them with a view to increasing the number of houses built for sale.

When are we likely to have the results of this important Working Party?

The Working Party has been in existence now for three months and reported to the builders and myself—that is, the full session of builders and myself—on 9th December. We propose to meet again when the Working Party finishes its Report. It is discussing primarily finance, land use and planning procedures.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek power to enable him to encourage an increased number of people from England and Wales to spend their holidays in Scotland.

I do not think that my right hon. Friend needs more powers. The Scottish Tourist Board has his full support in its work in this field and, as my right hon. Friend told my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hector Hughes) on 30th November, the Scottish tourist industry will share in the benefits of the expanded home holidays campaign with the British Travel Association is mounting with the aid of a Government grant.

As the Government want people to spend their holidays within these shores, will my hon. Friend take steps to ensure that the advertising of the beauties of Scotland is intensified? Would he also consider the question of improving the available accommodation? Would he also consider the question of the vast areas of land in Scotland that are reserved for private use just for a few days per year?

I will certainly draw these matters to the attention of the Tourist Board, as well as giving the assurance that they will be noted by my right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend should know that the work going on just now on all these matters, including market research—market research in England, primarily—is sustained by a Government grant of £25,000 each year for three years. We hope to get some results out of it which will lead us to a considerable change in policy regarding tourism in Scotland.

Will the Under-Secretary take a look at the success of the Governments of the Republic of Eire and of Northern Ireland in giving direct grants for the promotion of advertising for tourism in their respective countries? Should we not be doing the same in Scotland to attract more tourists?

My right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, together with my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales, are considering these matters thoroughly. We have taken, and are taking, comparisons with other countries, including the Republic of Ireland, which, I agree, has a very good record of State support of tourism. We want to make decisions about this when the facts are quite clear and when the proposed action which should be taken is economically sensible.

Would the Under-Secretary consult the management of British European Airways, a State-run airline, which spends all its money advertising trips to every part of Europe but nothing to Scotland?

One of the main changes which was made under this Government in the Tourist Board by itself, with the endorsement of the Secretary of State, was to change it from those who were specifically disinterested—or not interested commercially—in tourism to what is in fact a manufacturers' co-operative. The airlines are now for the first time represented on the Scottish Tourist Board, and I am sure they will want to play their proper part in tourism in Scotland. This is a matter of education and persuasion which I think is going along very nicely.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek power to ensure that more salmon and trout fishing, at a reasonable charge, is made available in Scotland for visitors from England and Wales and from abroad.

Excellent fishing is already available to visitors at very reasonable charges in many places in Scotland, but my right hon. Friend is aware of the increasing demand for angling facilities, and he will bear this in mind when deciding what action to take on the Hunter Committee Report on Scottish salmon and trout fisheries.

In view of that Answer, will my hon. Gentleman give the assurance that he is satisfied in regard to the removal of pollution from Scottish rivers? Will he do more to ensure that Scottish rivers are stocked with trout and salmon? Will he ensure that the riparian owners do not put too great a restriction on people wanting to visit Scotland for fishing purposes?

We are concerned about the pollution of rivers, but the purification boards are doing a good job of work here, although there is a considerable amount more still to be done. On the question of riparian owners and trout fishing, I do not know whether my hon. Friend knows what the position is in Scotland regarding trout fishing. The position is that a person can fish for trout in Scotland without a licence. The riparian owner can take an interdict against him, but that is rather a long and tedious process.

As the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned the Hunter Report, can he state what the state of consideration at the moment is? Two years ago he said that it was urgent. A year ago he said that it was very urgent. Is it now very, very, urgent?

It is still very urgent. There is a later Question on the Order Paper on this subject tabled by one of my hon. Friends. It would be more courteous to say more at that stage.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will request local authorities in Scotland to appoint only persons with nursing qualifications to take charge of homes for elderly and

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many fire brigades in Scotland are not presently equipped with breathing apparatus; and whether

No, Sir. The circumstances, such as the degree of frailty of the residents, vary so much that this is best left to local authorities' discretion.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that situations frequently arise in these places where nursing experience can be invaluable?

That is true. Each home cannot be compared exactly with every other home. Circumstances vary. This is a matter better left to local authorities. If they want to appoint somebody with a nursing qualification, they can do so; and many of them do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many policemen have been injured in Scotland during each of the last five years while on duty.

As the Answer contains a table of figures, I shall, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Police Federation is very concerned about the increase in the number of assaults upon policemen recently? Is he aware further that many of these assaults could have resulted in murder, but fortunately did not so result? An inch either way would have meant the difference between superficial injury and death.

I am aware that there has been an increase in the number of assaults upon the police. We are naturally concerned about this.

Every Scottish brigade is equipped with breathing apparatus, although it is not held at all fire stations.

Will my hon. Friend take steps to ensure that this apparatus is available to the smaller units, to avoid a situation like that which happened as a result of a fire about a month ago which tragically affected some of my constituents, when the Northern Fire Master had to comment on widespread Press reports that lives might have been saved if breathing apparatus had been available at one of these smaller stations?

I understand that, in the tragic circumstances of the fire at Stornoway, to which I think my hon. Friend is referring, it was the intense heat and collapse of the buildings which prevented firemen from gaining access and that the lack of breathing apparatus at that fire was not the cause of these deaths.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has received from the Highlands and Islands Development Board for improving land use in the Highlands of Scotland; and if he has approved them.

My right hon. Friend has not as yet received any proposals on this subject.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is a most disappointing reply in view of the fact that the development of the land economy of the Highlands is central to any development of the Highlands, and that, for 50 years and more, all possible development of land has been hindered by absentee landlords?

Naturally, we realise the importance of the development of land, but it must be remembered that the Board has existed for only 14 months. Nevertheless, I understand that it has a number of developments under active consideration. It has already stated publicly that it is interested in land use and development, for instance in the Isle of Mull, the Strath of Kildonan and in Glencoe, and I have no doubt that other matters concerning land are under its consideration.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the biggest single boost which he could give the Highlands would be to take land into public ownership? Until we break the rule of the Lairds north of the Highlands line we will make no satisfactory land use there.

That may well he so. The Board wants to get on with the job in hand, and it is getting on with it in the manner I have indicated.

Before accepting his hon. Friend's suggestion, would the hon. Gentleman carefully consider the land which he and his right hon. Friend own and see how well that is run?

Of course, the right hon. Gentleman is one of the last entitled to complain about the amount of land people own in Scotland. At least the land owned by my right hon. Friend is publicly owned.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to improve the ambulance service in the Highlands of Scotland.

The arrangements for providing ambulances in all parts of the country are reviewed frequently by the Joint Central Committee of the Scottish Ambulance Service. If my hon. Friend has any particular point I shall be glad to look into it.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. However, will he look at the cumbersome procedures for obtaining helicopter ambulance services in the remoter parts of the Highlands? Will he also consider whether or not the present system of sub-contracting the ambulance service to local operators is working adequately?

On the first point, I will look into the matter. On the second, there are occasional difficulties, but it is often necessary to work through subcontractors in remoter areas. There was a little difficulty in Thurso recently, as my hon. Friend knows, but that was put right—I hope to his satisfaction.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what information he has as to the number of premises in Edinburgh being used as brothels; how many prosecutions have taken place in the past two years; and what was the maximum sentence imposed.

The Edinburgh Police know of three houses under single management. There have been four prosecutions for brothel keeping in respect of these premises since the beginning of 1965. The biggest penalty imposed was a £40 fine.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree with many of my constituents, who feel that the repetition of trifling fines for persistent offenders is tantamount to running a licensed brothel system, but without many of the advantages of supervisory safeguards? What is he going to do about it?

Of course, the question of fines is essentially one for the courts, and it is not for me to comment on their decisions.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the most recent estimate of the dates for starting and for completing the Loch Lomond Water Scheme; and what changes in the estimated cost of the work have occurred in the past three years.

The start is being held up only by delay in obtaining the necessary powers. The work will take 2½ to 3 years to complete. The estimated cost in 1963 was £7·7 million to provide a supply of 50 million gallons a day, but the scheme has since been adjusted to provide up to 70 million gallons a day at a cost of about £9·8 million.

In view of the many changes of circumstances since the scheme was first mooted, will the hon. Gentleman give a firm undertaking that he will not use dictatorial or undemocratic powers to compel those local authorities which have already made adequate provision for their needs for many years ahead to join in a subsidised scheme unless they expressly favour it?

Neither my right hon. Friend nor the Government would dream of exercising dictatorial powers in any circumstances. I can give that as an absolute assurance. The Government, however, were committed in the Queen's Speech to introduce a Measure designed to reorganise water supplies in Scotland. Irrespective of that, there is no doubt that the Government are looking to the Parliamentary procedure governing the Order to see what eventuates from it.

Is it not the case that the figure of £9·8 million, which the hon. Gentleman gave, was the cost given at the inquiry in 1965? Does that mean that there has been no increase in cost in the intervening period or that the increase has not yet been calculated?

I am advised that there is no marginal increase of such a nature as to give rise to other figures than those which I have given to the House. The hon. and learned Member probably has a point, and I shall look into it, but I am so advised at present. This scheme was first sponsored and costed—and endorsed by the previous Government—in 1963 and it is a matter of great urgency for the areas in Cumbernauld and Livingston in particular and for other parts of Scotland that water supplies are augmented as quickly as possible—indeed, if not in 1967, certainly in 1968 and 1969.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will set up an inquiry into the reasons for the continuing decline in the number of doctors in general practice in Scotland.

No, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman afraid of such an inquiry, which would place a large burden of the responsibility on the Government's shoulders for the heavy burden of taxation on general practitioners and the position of the general practitioner service arising from the abolition of prescription charges? Is he aware that his right hon. Friend's statement that the trend would be reversed has been proved completely inaccurate and that the last quarter's figures were as bad as any under the present Government? What is he doing about it?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman at all. The whole matter of recruitment to general practice has been exhaustively considered and has also been considered by the Review Body. The new system of remuneration now coming into operation will, we think, make a great improvement in the attractiveness of general practice. That is the information which we get from the medical profession itself, which has welcomed the new system.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his policy with regard to the future level of fishing subsidies in Scotland.

The subsidy for white fish vessels over 80 feet is required by Statute to be reduced annually by between 7½ and 12½per cent.; the subsidy for herring vessels and white fish vessels under 80 feet is reviewed annually in the light of operating results. The Government are, however, at present carrying out a review of policy, and I cannot indicate what changes, if any, will be made as a result.

Can my hon. Friend give us some indication of when this review will be completed?

I am sorry; I cannot give my hon. Friend an indication of when it will be completed, but it should not be too long.

What representations, if any, have been received from the smaller boat owners about the level of subsidies?

We received representations, of course, when the subsidies were considered. I can recall no representations received recently on the matter.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that the heaviest burden of the latest fall in the subsidy rate was borne by the Scottish inshore fishing fleet, namely 33 per cent.? Is this not too high a drop compared to other ports of the fleet, and will he take steps to remedy the situation?

The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that it is the policy, as I have indicated, to review the subsidy annually, in the light of operating results. The inshore fleets have had two very good years, and it is the policy that, in good years, of course, the subsidy should be reduced.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when the Tayside Study Group will be appointed.

The Group held its first meeting yesterday.

Will this group have any responsibility in respect of the transport needs of the Tayside area where the decision has been taken to close the Strathmore line? Many people are concerned to know what function the group will have in respect of this kind of problem.

If it had been in existence, it would have been consulted. I am sure that one of the advantages of these local area groups is that they will be able to inform us of the transport needs for promoting the economic life of the area.

Would the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is intended to be the northern limit of the area of study of this Tayside group?

It goes from Dundee to Perth. I know that there is much concern in relation to Aberdeen, but that area, which the hon. Member represents, has its own area group. I see no conflict between the two areas, and I think that the best way to proceed is along these lines.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the Tayside group had already been set up before the decision on the Strathmore line was announced and, therefore, could have been consulted and should have been consulted?

I said the first meeting was yesterday.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many prisoners serving life sentences for convictions of murder have been released in the last two years; what were the periods of imprisonment served in each case; and how many were released contrary to the recommendation of the trial judge.

One life sentence prisoner was released last autumn after serving nine years. The trial judge was not available. The Lord Justice General expressed the view that the prisoner should be detained for a longer period.

Does the Secretary of State agree that in the new climate set by the Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Act it is more than ever important to have the closest regard to the views of the judiciary before taking administrative action in this field?

This is not administrative action. This is the statutory obligation of the Secretary of State. I should not like anyone to think that any decision in respect of this is taken by any civil servant. It is taken by the Secretary of State. I should not like anyone to assume that because in this case I did not agree with the trial judge, that is always the situation. It would be quite wrong to jump to that conclusion.

Does the Secretary of State agree that releasing a person convicted of murder after nine years can cause very great anomalies, bearing in mind that people charged with lesser crimes, such as manslaughter and the mail train robbery, can get far longer sentences and may have to serve them?

I think that the mail train robbery aspect of this problem is slightly irrelevant. That was very exceptional indeed. But I, as Secretary of State, certainly take into account the question of sentencing in respect of more related crimes. This is one of the things which is taken into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland to what extent it is a general practice in Scotland to release persons convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment after a period of between eight and nine years; and if he is satisfied with this practice.

There is no such general practice. Each case is considered individually on principles that have been explained in the House on previous occasions. Release is on licence; and the person released is liable to recall, if necessary, as long as he lives.

Although it may not be the general practice, is it not the case that in the ordinary way the release on licence of a person convicted of murder normally takes place after eight or nine years? If that is the case, is it not quite illogical that it should be so when the judiciary have expressed the view that in certain circumstances for the much lesser crime of culpable homicide a person convicted may be sentenced to 15 years imprison- ment, of which ten years will normally be served?

It is very wrong, certainly in Scotland, where I have certain knowledge, to talk about what "normally" happens. The last Answer that I gave showed that one person had been released in two years. In the last six years, which covers three Secretaries of State—and I am sure that they all took the same responsible attitude as I take in this matter—the number of people released has been three. It is very wrong to start talking about general principles on that kind of basis. Each case is dealt with individually on its merits. It would be wrong to give the impression to anybody that automatically after a certain number of years anyone is released. As a matter of fact, there is certainly one case that would distort the average in relation to the last two years if we started to consider averages. There is one person in a Scottish prison who was sentenced to life imprisonment and who has been there for 11½ years.

Will the Secretary of State clear up the position and assure me that there is continuity of policy over the last few years and that the average sentence served in the late 1950's and early 1960's by persons convicted of murder and released on licence is very similar to that at the present time?

If anyone wishes to work on this average business—which I deplore, because it is misleading—the position is that at the present time such prisoners tend to be kept in longer.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied that rates of grant are adequate for those entering teacher training under the special recruitment scheme; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has no evidence that the current rates of grant under the Special Recruitment Scheme are inadequate, and he has no proposals at present for increasing them.

Is not the hon. Member aware that men who have held responsible positions outside teaching and who have family commitments can suffer financial hardship on entering teacher training? Does he not agree that it is most undesirable that this should happen at a time when there is a great need for good people to enter the teaching profession?

I do not agree with that. The grants are related to the circumstances of the prospective students. In the case of a married man with two children, for example, the grant might be £750 per year or it might be rather more, depending on age and other circumstances.

Does not the Minister agree that there is a point of substance here, bearing in mind the need to recruit graduates from industry and commerce? Should he not consider paying another grant for the equivalent of the first year's salary that they would draw in teaching? Would he also look at other aspects of the scheme, particularly the imposition of the requirement of two "highers" for these people?

My hon. Friend's first suggestion has wide implications, because it would also have to be related to what happens to graduates who go to teacher training straight from university. It is a very big question. On the second point, we try to be as flexible and realistic as we can about initial qualifications, but it is not of any advantage to a prospective student to allow him in with qualifications which are seriously below standard, for the prospects then are that he will not be able to complete the course. We should not ask people to give up outside employment in those circumstances. We must strike a balance.

Does not the hon. Member think that if about £750 a year is the most that can be given, then the people we are likely to get from industry and other places who are suitable for this work are bound to suffer hardship because they will be making much more at the time in outside industry?

I did not say that £750 was the maximum. I quoted an instance and said that other people can get grants beyond that. The response to the special recruitment scheme last year was extremely good. We had more than 10,000 inquiries, and eventually 1,000 people seriously considered entry and 500 entered last year. The response to this year's publicity campaign has been equally good and we have already had several thousand inquiries.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he has had regarding measures to assist the redeployment of labour in Scotland.

Responsibility for administering the Government's policies affecting redeployment rests with a number of Ministers, notably my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour. I am naturally in close and regular consultation with him and other Ministers concerned.

Would the Secretary of State say how many people have actually been redeployed since July? Would he say whether they have moved to manufacturing industries or to service industries.

Not without notice.

How many retraining centres will be set up in Scotland outside the central belt?

I can give the hon. Gentleman the whole list. I think that it is about seven, and one is being built and one was announced last week. I am sorry that I could not give him the actual locations off the cuff.

In so far as redeployment has occurred out of areas largely dependent on service industries, has the Secretary of State had consultations with his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the possible relationship of the Selective Employment Tax with this phenomenon?

I have assured my hon. Friend before that the question of the Selective Employment Tax and its effect in the first year is a subject that certainly closely concerns me.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that we have been urging a regional investigation of S.E.T. since May and for action to be taken regionally in this matter? If the first year is to pass before the Government consider this, may not the effects of S.E.T. have gone too far, so that it will then be too late?

The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that the present Government will not take any action too late. [Interruption.] The trouble with the former Conservative Government was that they did not take any action at all.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the net change in the strength of the police force over the last 12 months.

A decrease of 77 in the year ending on 31st October.

Is the Minister aware that when pay negotiations take place next year a substantial increase will have to be given if we are to have a net gain in strength?

That is a matter for the negotiations. I recognise the seriousness of losing police at the present time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the number of principals and assistants in general practice in October 1964, October 1965, and October 1966, respectively.

2,790, 2,728, and 2,673, respectively. These figures exclude trainee assistants. The last figure is provisional.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that those figures confirm what my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) was saying a moment ago? Is he aware that this is a serious decline, that it reflects the high burden of taxation on doctors and the professional classes generally, and that it also reflects the Government's muddled priorities in the Health Service?

Any decline in the number of doctors in general practice is a serious matter, although the reasons for this decline are many, including the failure of previous Conservative Administrations to extend the medical schools sufficiently. Indeed, at one time hon. Gentlemen opposite put the process of extending the medical schools in reverse. We are now paying the penalty for that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he will now take to encourage the expansion of agricultural production.

This question will be fully considered at the forthcoming Annual Review in the light of all the relevant factors, including the requirements of the selective expansion programme.

That is not a very encouraging Answer. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that oats, potatoes, swedes, turnips, dairy cows, pigs, poultry and sugar beet are all substantially down this year and that income from livestock has fallen disastrously? Will he take urgent steps to restore the confidence of the farmers?

We have already taken steps in respect of those sections of the industry which have been hardest hit by recent events and conditions, in particular by giving the advance payment of 15s. per ewe to hill sheep farmers and by stating, in advance of the Annual Review, our intention to raise the middle band for pigs by 400,000. The hon. Gentleman may consider this to be a not particularly encouraging Answer, but it shows that the Government are anxious to tackle this problem, remembering that this is the time when all these products should be fully taken into account by the Government and the industry.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern that is felt, especially in Ayrshire, about milk production, and will he give an indication of the position?

The position regarding milk production is that there has been a decline in the number of herds. However, the size of individual herds is increasing, and that has shown a further tendency towards concentration in dairy production.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the figures which my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) gave—of eight commodities being down; and only two commodities are up—shows that the June census return is a contradiction unparalleled in the post-war years and shows the lack of confidence among the agricultural community in the present Administration?

That is quite wrong. I remember the hon. Gentleman's maiden speech in which he told us that he nearly joined a farmers' hunger march because of the activities of his hon. and right hon. Friends.

Will the right hon. Gentleman pay particular attention to the crisis of confidence in the hill and marginal section of farming, not only at the time of the next Review but immediately, so that something may be done to restore confidence, particularly if we are to enter the E.E.C.?

Not on this Question.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that my maiden speech was not made on the subject of agriculture?

Perhaps I should say that the remarks I attributed to the hon. Gentleman were made by him in one of the many important speeches which he has made.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimates he has made of net emigration from Scotland in the year to end June 1966, and of the proportion of emigrants going to England and overseas, respectively.

The estimated net emigration was 47,000, of which 22,000 was to the rest of the United Kingdom and 25,000 overseas.

In view of these appalling figures, would the right hon. Gentleman explain why, since the Labour Government came to power, the population of Scotland has begun to decline year by year? Will he look into this as a matter of great urgency and bear in mind these appalling figures when considering the level of unemployment, on which a strict watch must be kept?

If the hon. Gentleman will study these matters closely, he will appreciate that the first time when these figures rose above 40,000 was in 1963–64. Thereafter they rose even higher, and in 1964–65, when the Conservative Government were in power—I mention that in case the hon. Gentleman is anxious to attach responsibility for this trend—they rose to more than 43,000. The hon. Gentleman should not blame us for any calamitous rises. I am concerned, as every Scot should be, to arrest this trend. We used to talk about the drift to the South. The figure of 22,000 is a fairly stable one today. I am more concerned with overseas emigration and about what we can do to prevent that. I suggest that only by proceeding along the right long-term lines—by providing the right social facilities, the right housing, the right industry and so on—will we solve this problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in how many instances in 1964, 1965, and 1966 applications by farmers in Scotland for the hill cow subsidy have been refused solely on the ground that application was not submitted by 30th June.

The numbers in these three years were 20, 18 and 7, respectively.

Will not the Minister of State agree that some of the trouble here is due to the change either in tenancy or ownership of the holding concerned, and will he take administrative steps to make sure that an incoming tenant or occupier is informed of the procedure, or sent the correct form automatically with the change in tenancy or ownership?

This matter was looked at at the beginning of the year when certain modifications were made in the payment of these subsidies which have helped to reduce the number of those not eligible.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland in what ways the new segregation unit being built at Inverness Prison will differ from the old segregation unit at Peterhead started in 1951; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer which I gave to him on 9th March.—[Vol. 725, c. 521.]

Is the Minister of State aware that all of us on this side wish him well, particularly at Christmas time, and hope that there will be no Christmas escapes from Scottish prisons in the way they seem to be so easily occurring south of the Border at present? Is he aware that the segregation unit at Peterhead was developed in 1951 and was a very great success, in spite of opposition to it, and that one essential feature of the segregation unit now being established at Inverness must be an awareness in the prison population of the disadvantages and the punishment nature of the centre?

The segregation unit at Peterhead served its purpose, but the purpose at Inverness is rather different. We also think that the establishment at Inverness will avoid some of the problems that a rose at Peterhead.

asked the Lord President of the Council what inquiries have been conducted into the reasons for the losses of the Refreshment Department of the House of Commons; and if he will now make a report on the matter.

The Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) has not yet completed its investigations into the reasons for the losses of the Refreshment Department, but it hopes to be able to make a report to the House soon after the Recess.