asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what consideration he has given to the Political and Economic Planning report on racial discrimination, a copy of which has been sent to him; and if, while legislation is being considered, he will send a circular to local authorities advising them to end any discriminatory practices in the allocation of housing and to use housing need as the sole criterion.

The report is being studied as part of the Government's general review of the Race Relations Act. Decisions on the need for legislation or further advice will be taken when the review has been completed. The Government have made it clear that they expect local authorities to ensure that their policies for allocating tenancies do not discriminate against immigrants.

While welcoming that reply, may I ask the Minister to recognise that this discrimination in local authority housing amounts to the public treatment of Commonwealth immigrants as second-class citizens, and will he take all steps possible to put an end to this?

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I hope he will accept that I detest racial discrimination as much as he does, and if there is solid evidence of racial discrimination on the part of local authorities we shall certainly take it into account in our general review of the need for legislation.

Has my right hon, Friend's attention been drawn to the remarks, reported in this morning's Press, by Sir William Carron on the subject of racial discrimination against immigrants, and will he publicly dissociate himself and the Government from those remarks?

I think that that goes rather wide of the Question, but I have said how much I personally deplore any sort of racial discrimination.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government, in view of the special treatment accorded to development areas and the Government's acceptance of the Plowden principle of educational priority areas, what proposals he has for establishing similar principles for dealing with housing in the twilight areas of the main city centres by way of redevelopment or conversion schemes.

The Government have already given priority to areas with specially heavy slum clearance and overcrowding problems in their housing programme, and special attention will be given to twilight areas in the review of legislation relating to older houses, and their environment.

I welcome that reply, but may I ask the Minister to let the House know at an early date what extra funds he is seeking to give effect to the promise he has now made?

A review is taking place. We are having consultations, not only with local authorities, but with all those interested in this problem, and as the hon. Gentleman probably knows a special study has just been completed by the sub-committee of our Housing Committee. I hope that later in the year my right hon. Friend will be in a position to say clearly what he intends to do.

In his original reply the hon. Gentleman mentioned the review of legislation. When is it likely that the chicken will come out of this egg?

I hope in the not too distant future, and I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that before the chicken comes out of the egg he will be involved in the hatching ceremony.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now introduce legislation to avoid local authorities unnecessarily alarming council house tenants by having to serve a notice to quit on them when the councils require to alter their rents.

My right hon. Friend must first consider the advice of the Law Commission, which has been looking into this matter. He expects to receive its report in the course of next month.

Is my hon. Friend aware that for the last six or seven years I have been fobbed off by successive Housing Ministers with promises of future legislation? Will he act where others have failed to act?

We are acting in the sense that we have asked the Law Commission to look into this matter in general. We are expecting its report next month. Its terms of reference were to consider whether a notice to quit is an essential prerequisite to a change of rent. and whether legislation is desirable to rectify the position. I hope that within the next month we can do something about it.

Is there any possibility of issuing with the notice to quit an explanatory leaflet, which would go a long way to satisfying the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun)?

I understand that some local authorities have found a way of avoiding the service of a notice to quit in some circumstances, but the legal validity of this is not without doubt. It is because of this that we have had to seek the Law Commission's advice.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what plans are being made to publicise the optional mortage scheme so that existing owner-occupiers can decide whether or not they wish to take advantage of this scheme.

The main basis of the publicity will be an explanatory pamphlet which will be available, when the time comes, from all the lending agencies concerned and from citizens' advice bureaux.

Since, apparently, owner-occupiers must make up their minds by the end of the year, will not more publicity be required than is envisaged by the Ministry? Will my right hon. Friend consider making a television appearance in order to give publicity to the scheme?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for his suggestion, which I hope will be noted in other places. The proposal is that 5 million pamphlets shall be made available in July for people who have to make their choice about the end of September. I think that our immediate proposal is adequate. We shall consider the position further if it turns out that it does not have the response we hope for.

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the report of a large building society, which has had to put all this on a computer, that it is impossible to explain it in pamphlet form? Is the right hon. Gentleman doing anything to see that it is put on a computer, as a public service for those who will have to decide whether or not to choose the option mortgage?

No, Sir. This showed how wrong the hon. Member was to press us to introduce the scheme more rapidly than we propose to do.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many local authorities now operate schemes in respect of rents which concentrate subsidies on those who need them; how many local authorities operate no such schemes; and what steps he is taking to secure that effective schemes for this purpose are operated by all local authorities.

I would refer the right hon. Member to the details of rent rebate schemes contained in Housing Statistics 1965–66 published by the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants. I am consulting the local authority associations on the need to issue fresh guidance to local authorities on rent rebate schemes.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that it is now two years since his predecessor's White Paper urged action upon local authorities to this end? In view of the large sums of public money, by way of subsidy which the right hon. Gentleman is responsible for channelling, is it not necessary for him to press local authorities hard, even though the number of them requiring such pressure has been conspicuously reduced as a result of the events of the last few days?

We have had a working party at officer level considering this question. Its report is now available, and I hope to discuss it with the elected representatives of the local authority associations in the near future. As the right hon. Gentleman will be aware, we shall shortly be having a debate on the matter in the House, when the Housing Subsidies Bill comes back from another place.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that rent rebate schemes are fundamentally undesirable things, and are only temporary stop-gaps until we can put into force reasonable minimum wage legislation and bring pensions up to their proper level?

I cannot accept that. There are rent rebate schemes and rent rebate schemes. Some of those operated by local authorities are little more than travesties of rent rebate schemes. There is no reason why properly thought out and properly prepared rent rebate schemes should not be a great act of social justice.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in furtherance of the Government's prices and incomes policy, he proposes to invite local authorities to inform him of increases in council house rentals.

Parliament has given local authorities responsibility for fixing the rents of their houses and I have no power to intervene. Comprehensive information is published, however, annually by the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that under the White Paper which is to govern the next stage of the Government's prices and incomes policy there are no compulsory powers enabling the Government to intervene concerning the prices of manufactured goods? None the less, the Government wish for notification. Why do not they place council house rents in the same category?

The point is that local authorities have to balance their housing revenue accounts under the Statutes passed by this House. I have every reason to believe that we can rely on them not to raise rents unless they are convinced that it is essential.

Has not there been inequity in this matter during the period of freeze and restraint, as between the tenants of local authorities and tenants of private landlords, in that local authorities have been free to raise their rents whereas private landlords have had to maintain their rents at the existing levels, whether controlled or regulated? The tenants of their properties have had an advantage as compared with council house tenants.

The hon. Gentleman is overlooking the fact that the great majority of local authorities keep their rents steady.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what incentive he provides local authorities with to avoid steep rent increases; what has been the response to his appeal to defer rent increases; what other action he intends to take to assist local authorities to balance their housing revenue accounts; and if he will make a statement.

Local authorities generally have given support to the standstill and severe restraint since 20th July, 1966, within the limits imposed by their statutory duties. It is the purpose of the bigger subsidies provided for in the Housing Subsidies Bill to give greater assistance to local authorities towards meeting housing costs.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he not aware that one of the biggest single factors in the cost of housing our people, especially for the local housing authorities, is the high interest rates charged for money borrowed to build and maintain those houses? When will he and his colleagues do something about these interest rates to help the people now?

I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said and the concern he feels, but the Housing Subsidies Bill which is now before Parliament will have exactly the effect he wants. That is, it will give local authorities the opportunity of borrowing money at a fixed 4 per cent.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what discussions he has had with the building societies on the level of mortgage rates, following the recent reductions in the Bank Rate.

I have continuing discussions with the builders and the building societies. The general view of the Building Societies Association is that in order to support a rising programme of housebuilding, the societies will have to retain their present investment and lending rates for the time being.

Would my right hon. Friend kindly urge the building societies to "pull their fingers out"? Is it not becoming obvious that they pay far more attention to the Bank Rate when it goes up than they do when it comes down? If, as we are led to think, all that goes up must come down, why should this not apply to mortgage rates?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that my concern is that funds should be available for building private houses, particularly in anticipation of the operation of the option mortgage scheme next year. So far as pulling their fingers out is concerned, my hon. Friend will be glad to learn that, in March, the receipts of the building societies were £153 million, and their new commitments £139 million, which is approximately double the amount in December, 1966.

Is it not a fact that this is a problem afflicting owner-occupiers? As mortgage interest may be chargeable against Income Tax assessment, is not the proper recourse to increase the Income Tax allowances for mortgage interest? Would not that solve the problem?

The best thing would be for the hon. Gentleman to read the Housing Subsidies Bill and the proposal for option mortgages.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action he has taken to reduce the cost of houses.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what further powers he will now seek to control the cost of building houses.

The most effective way to reduce the price of houses is by increasing the supply, and the Government are giving this higher priority than for many years past. My right hon. Friend is taking a number of steps to make sure that houses built by local authorities give good value for money. He is today issuing a circular setting out cost yardsticks based on Parker-Morris standards. My right hon. Friend is introducing a single mandatory floor-to-floor height and he is encouraging better contractual procedures and greater standardisation of components.

Does the hon. Gentleman remember the promises of his party in 1964 about reducing the cost of houses? Is he not aware that the costs of houses are steadily rising and that there has been a forecast that there will be a rise of a further 10 per cent. this year?

I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman is now asking for. Does he want the Government to introduce legislation to control the price of housing? If so, he had better get up and say so.

Has my hon. Friend considered writing off at least a proportion of the heavy financial debts of local authorities to the Ministry?

That is another question. The whole problem of housing revenue accounts—although it is not related to this Question is under investigation by my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what proportion of houses completed in 1965 and 1966, respectively, was built by members of the National House Builders' Registration Council; and what proportion of all building firms is currently registered as members of that body.

I am afraid that the information is not available in the form requested. About 70 per cent. of all private sector housing is at present being built by registered builders.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on what is evidently excellent progress in the last two years, but may I ask whether he has closed his mind to the possibility of imposing 100 per cent. compulsory registration by the end of the year?

We have consulted the N.H.B.R.C. on the matter and my right hon. Friend and the council are satisfied that, by the voluntary means now being followed, we can achieve 100 per cent. registration without any compulsion from this House. At the moment, 90 per cent. of the larger firms and 5,500 of the smaller firms are already registered, and a further 300 have come forward to apply for registration. Judging by the way things are going now, we believe that the way we are doing it is the right way.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will encourage local authorities to build houses for sale.

Building for sale is primarily the job of the private builders and I consider that, at the present time, local authorities should undertake such building only where the demand is not being adequately met by private builders and where it will not prejudice their primary duty of meeting the urgent need for rented housing.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that, while many hon. Members on this side of the House deplore the sale of council houses for party political profit, there might nevertheless be an advantage to local authorities in seeking to cater for a rather wider range of housing need among the community?

I would not want to divert the energy of local authorities away from the building of houses for rent, which I believe to be their prime function. However, I am prepared to make exceptions; in the case, for example, of town centre redevelopment schemes, catering for new industries or to make a proper social balance in certain areas.

Pending the building of a great many more houses for sale at moderate prices, would the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will not seek to discourage the Greater London Council from selling council houses to its tenants?

That is, of course, quite a different question, but the right hon. Gentleman is no doubt aware of the extremely helpful circular which I issued to local authorities shortly before the county council elections.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of the capacity of the direct building departments of many of our large local authorities could be used for building houses for sale, and why not?

I think that I have answered the question fully. We are prepared to make exceptions, and if my hon. Friend has any cases in mind I hope that he will let me have the details.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many prosecutions there have been to the latest available date, under the Rent Act, 1965, against landlords who try to get tenants to leave by means of violence, threats or other interference.

Up to the end of 1966 there was 335 prosecutions for offences under Part III of the Rent Act, 1965–203 for harassment and 132 for unlawful eviction. One person was imprisoned and 192 fines were imposed.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that, in areas where landlords and tenants often tend to live in the same house, this is a considerable problem? Would it be possible for the police to take more positive action when complaints are made instead of merely referring the matter to the local authority?

My right hon. Friend is reviewing the working of the Act in this context, but, as far as we know, the police are co-operating adequately with local authorities.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what action has so far been taken by the Hertfordshire County Council to implement his Department's circular No. 8/65 about derelict cars.

The circular mainly concerned action by district councils and other refuse-collecting authorities. It asked county councils to co-ordinate action by district councils. I understand that Hertfordshire, after discussion with its district councils, concluded that adequate arrangements for co-ordination had already been made.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a rather disappointing reply, and that very soon there will be about 1 million derelict cars a year to be disposed of? Will he bring to the attention of these authorities the various processes which are available for disposing very quickly of cars, and which will actually pay for the privilege of doing so?

Hertfordshire district authorities are working together, and are, I believe, negotiating to tender with the firm which works for the Greater London Council in this respect.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is an extremely serious problem in areas of natural beauty, for example the Chiltern Hills and the Buckinghamshire woods? Recently in the woods near High Wycombe about 60 cars had to be taken away, and the same sort of number is accumulating in the very same place. Will the hon. Gentleman therefore impress on the councils concerned the urgency of this matter?

The Civic Amenities Bill which is now in another place will impose an obligation on local authorities to deal with this kind of refuse.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what results have been achieved as a result of the report of the working party on refuse collection.

The working party, to whom my right hon. Friend is most grateful, has prepared a very valuable report, which he will be publishing shortly.

Does not the Minister consider that it does not seem to have very much effect in respect of the streets, which are littered as if a paper-chase had gone through them?

This is an extremely good report. I commend it to the hon. Gentleman and hope that he will study it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will issue a circular to all housing and planning authorities drawing their attention to the need to make certain in the design of buildings that account is taken of the needs of disabled people by the adoption of wide doors, low steps, handrails and the provision of lifts to the lowest level.

The Department issued to local authorities in 1964 and 1965 circulars containing recommendations on most of these matters. I am sending copies to the hon. Member. My right hon. Friend does not think that a further circular is called for, but will gladly consider any suggestions the hon. Gentleman may wish to make.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that these circulars are having the desired effect?

Yes, Sir. The information we have is that, by and large, the plans coming to our Department through local authorities are following the recommendations which have been promoted. We do not see all the plans, however, and if the hon. Member has any particular example in mind we shall be glad to look into it.

Is the Minister aware that it is all very well for him to ask my hon. Friend for suggestions? Has not he some suggestions for furthering this? Does not he think that this is a very important matter, and that somehow local authorities should be forced to comply with these recommendations?

The hon. Member must have misunderstood my reply. We have no reason to be dissatisfied with what is going on. Circulars have been sent out by this Government and by previous Governments. We believe that local authorities are complying with what we have asked them. I made the obvious point that if the hon. Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) knew of any isolated case we should be glad to look into it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he proposes to take to avoid sellers of land passing on the 40 per cent. levy by adding it to the selling price.

My right hon. Friend does not think that any action is needed at present. Purchasers have the remedy in their own hands by refusing to pay increased prices, but I have asked the Land Commission to keep a close watch on the situation and he ready to use its powers of compulsory purchase if necessary.

Is the Minister aware that I am grateful for his last few words? Some of us fear that there will be widespread evasion and the defeat of the intention of the Act. Would not the best safeguard be to have far more compulsory purchases by the Commission than is at present expected, since this would mean that the Commission would fix the price?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the Commission's powers will be used if necessary.

In the Minister's close watch has there been any sign of houses becoming any cheaper as a result of the Land Commission Bill?

I have been concerned with land prices, and there has been no sign that they have increased.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us of any single tax in the history of this country that has not found its way to the man in the street? Does not he agree that the Land Commission will make nonsense of the Government's pledge to keep down prices, and that the only answer is public ownership of all development land?

The landowner has always endeavoured to obtain the highest price from the developer, and he will continue to do so. The Land Commission will see that land is brought forward where required.

Is it not a fact that this practice is an inevitable comcomitant of the taxing of betterment values? Would it not be better to abolish the Land Commission and let land find its natural value?

It is obvious that the hon. Member has not studied the problem. The House is committed to a levy, tax or charge. The Land Commission has been established to ensure that land will be in supply adequate to meet the needs of development.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will circularise local authorities to encourage them to purchase multi-occupied dwellings in overcrowded areas such as Notting Hill.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what plans he has to assist those local authorities that have problems of multi-occupation.

Problems of multi-occupation are among those being studied in the general review of legislation on the older housing stock but most local authorities find that the present powers, if resolutely used, can do a great deal. My right hon. Friend is ready to consider proposals to purchase in the light of particular circumstances.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many people feel that the local council in the Notting Hill area has seriously fallen down on the job? Would he consider investigating the record of this borough council to try to improve its shocking housing record?

These old houses in Notting Hill are, I believe, in the hands of companies which are in liquidation, and some serious problems have arisen. I am advised that necessary repairs are still being carried out. Of course, the decision to acquire older properties is for the local authorities themselves, which can then promote them to us for endorsement. It is not for me, at this Box, to tell a local authority what to do.

Would my hon. Friend consider granting to those local authorities which have this special problem—Ealing Borough Council, for example—similar powers to those conferred on the Birmingham Corporation to help them control this problem of multiple occupation, which could be a very dangerous menace?

The Birmingham scheme is an experiment. We are watching it closely and shall certainly wish later to consider giving these powers to local authorities generally. This is all part of our review. In fact, even within the existing powers today, a local authority which has the will can quickly find a way.

Are not housing associations a better way of dealing with this problem than piecemeal acquisition by local authorities?

The hon. Gentleman will know that we have done a great deal for housing associations, particularly by way of financial encouragement in our Housing Subsidies Bill. They can make an important contribution to this problem, but I would generally agree with my hon. Friend that this is primarily the responsibility of local authorities.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government, how many local authorities have begun the rating of empty property.

Fifty-five rating authorities have resolved that the provisions for rating unoccupied property shall apply to their areas starting this year, and so far one rating authority has resolved to start next year. With permission I shall circulate a list of the authorities in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that that is a very disappointing figure? What steps is he taking to improve the situation?

It depends how high my hon. Friend's expectations were. The figure of 55 is about what I thought we would get. This will be a valuable experiment to see how effective the provisions are. I have no doubt that other local authorities will take advantage of it later.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the London Borough of Bromley has decided not to rate vacant properties, thus wasting thousands of pounds for the taxpayers of that borough and leading to properties remaining vacant in an area of short supply? Would the Government not have done better to accept the Rating (Unoccupied Hereditaments) Bill of 1965, which made it mandatory for local authorities to rate vacant property?

I am always surprised that the Liberal Party should be preemptory in these matters. It is better, when there is a good deal of difference of opinion, to allow an adoptive Clause to see how it works.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) why he rejected the recommendation of the Water Resources Board that a feasibility study of the Wash barrage scheme should be undertaken at an early date;

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what recent representations he has received about his refusal to allow the feasibility study of the Wash barrage scheme to go ahead; and what replies he has sent.

My right hon. Friend has received a letter from the President of the National Farmers' Union and telegrams from two branches. In his replies he has agreed to receive a deputation shortly.

Does the hon. Gentleman not realise that, unless this feasibility study is begun now, it may turn out to be too late? For how long will the Government continue with their "couldn't care less "attitude to the prospective loss of thousands of acres of good agricultural land?

The Government have a responsibility to keep down public expenditure, and it is surprising how often the Opposition ask for more expenditure. There is at present no justification for this additional expenditure of £1½ million.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will issue a circular to local authorities giving guidance on the practice of imposing a closed shop on their employees, with special reference to candidates training in approved offices preparatory to taking Town and Country Planning in the final examination of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.

No, Sir. Local authorities are best left to form their own judgement on such matters. Moreover, the operation of closed shop policies comes within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on Trade Unions and Employers' Associations.

Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to stand idly by? Will he not give some indication of his opinion that any closed shop is an intolerable invasion of personal liberty, and peculiarly odious in the case of students?

And lawyers.

I am not aware of any special problem with regard to students. If the hon. Member has one in mind, we should like to know about it. We think that this is a matter best left to local authorities. One point I would make, and which has often been made before in the House, is that it is ironic that those who will not belong to unions for one reason or another are the first to take any increases in wages or salaries achieved by the efforts of the unions.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has made a decision yet on the extension of the Dawley New Town area to include Wellington and Oakengates.

No decision has yet been taken on whether to extend Dawley New Town to take in Wellington and Oakengates.

is my right hon. Friend aware of the urgency of taking this decision both because of the effects of the planning freeze in the area and because of the desirability of moving as many people and firms as possible out of Birmingham in as short a time as possible?

Yes, I realise the importance of this, but it is an extremely complicated problem. I hope that my hon. Friend will bear in mind that the four-year development programme of Dawley has three years still to run, so we have a little time to make the right decision.

Is not my right hon. Friend aware that this and other overspill schemes in the West Midlands area are of great interest to Birmingham Members and their constituents, and that tens of thousands of people in Birmingham are still waiting for a house?

I am well aware of that, and my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary recently visited Birmingham to discuss these matters with them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether it is intended that there shall be relief where there are charges of both Estate Duty and land commission levy on the development value of the same land in all cases where the double charge can be traced.

An appropriate allowance for levy purposes will be made under the provisions of Schedule 7 to the Land Commission Act for interests in land in respect of which liability for Estate Duty has arisen within the previous six years but where levy is charged on land which was owned by a company in which the deceased had shares and not by the deceased himself, the Schedule is obviously inapplicable.

But is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with this position by which, because land is owned through a family company, double taxation is charged? Has he considered the case which I submitted to him, in which Estate Duty has been charged at 50 per cent., and a further 40 per cent.—making a total of 90 per cent.—will be charged on the value of that land?

I am aware of the case which the hon. Gentleman mentions, where the land has not changed hands at all. I am also aware that, in that case, the possibility of the question of a charity arises.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government (1) what consultations take place with local authorities prior to the commencement of a scheme for town centre redevelopment; and what percentage of local authorities avail themselves of the opportunity for consultation;

All local authorities have been urged in Planning Bulletins 1 and 3 issued by the Department, to consult local opinion fully on town centre redevelopment schemes. I believe most authorities do so and my right hon. Friend does not think that further legislation is required.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but is he aware that many local authorities have gone into schemes which are either beyond their financial needs or their financial ability and that many of these schemes are turning into white elephants, detrimental not only to the shopping public but to shop workers as well? Will he examine this position?

I am not so aware, but if my hon. Friend brings cases to my notice, I will certainly look at them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he is aware of the problem of the London Boroughs, and in particular the Borough of Ealing, in dealing with concentration of immigrant settlements; and if he will give further assistance to such local authorities.

I am well aware of this problem, on which my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary received a deputation from the local Members and council on 26th January. In the general review of legislation to which he referred in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick), the special problems arising from concentrations of immigrant settlements will be borne in mind.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would he undertake to look carefully and sympathetically at any early representations which the London Borough of Ealing may make to him about this problem, particularly as it affects the Southall part of this London borough?

Yes, Sir, although I am bound to remind my hon. Friend that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has had very long and detailed discussions with the Ealing Council about this matter.

In view of the appalling conditions under which many of the immigrants are having to live in certain areas, is it not criminal madness to allow further immigrants to come into this country until this problem has been solved?

Fortunately this is not a matter for my right hon. Friend, in that I do not have to think of an answer which would be polite enough to get through the House.

May I inform my hon. Friend that he can rest assured that we have tabled this Question in an effort to help solve what is a difficult problem and that we are not in any way affected by the detestable racialism of which we have just heard? [Interruption.] Would he agree that, in so far as the London Borough of Ealing has faced this problem, it has made splendid efforts—

On a point of order. Is it not a fact that the words used by the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy), "contemptible racialism"—

I said "detestable".

—"detestable racialism" impute dishonourable motives to my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) and that they should, therefore, be withdrawn?

Order. The hon. Gentleman must leave the Chair to decide what is in order. Mr. Molloy.

Would my hon. Friend agree that all the officers and members of the staff of the Ealing Borough Council have done as much as possible to try to get these people, who are members of our British Commonwealth, to be assimilated with the people of these islands—which, I think, is a fine and proper thing to do? Would he further—

Order. There are many Questions on the Order Paper.

Would my hon. Friend seek to—

Order. We must get on.

On a point of order. Have I no means of protecting my good name—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—against such unworthy and ignorant slurs, and since I was asking for protection for the immigrants who are already in this country, is there no means by which that dastardly kind of reflection can be stopped?

The hon. Gentleman is making a political defence to what I think was a political attack. Mr. Tilney, next Question.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when the report on the Dee Estuary will be made available to the public.

On a point of order.

I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not waste Question time by continually raising points of order.

On a point of order. With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, is it not out of order to put on the Order Paper an ambiguous Question of this kind, which does not indicate to which River Dee reference is being made?

The consulting engineers' preliminary report on the feasibility of a Dee crossing is expected to be published by mid-July.

Since there is great interest in this imaginative scheme, not only among those who live in the local authority areas immediately contiguous to the shore of the English-Welsh Dee but among those who live further afield, especially on Merseyside, would the Minister make certain that other local authorities are taken into consultation when the report is published?

I will bear the hon. Gentleman's remarks in mind. I appreciate his interest in this project, but what we are mainly concerned with is consultation with the planning authorities, the economic planning councils, the study group and those who are immediately affected.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he expects to reach a decision on the applications for loan sanction which have been made to him according to the procedure laid down in his Department's Circular 50/66.

My right hon. Friend hopes to decide on an initial programme of schemes soon. He cannot at this stage indicate the total size of the programme or its regional distribution.

Can my hon. Friend give some idea of the criterion that will be employed to decide between the decisions which are made by different local authorities, and, in particular, will he give an assurance that the social needs of old industrial towns like Sutton-in-Ashfield in my constituency will be given full weight when the decisions are finally reached?

I assure my hon. Friend that the criteria he has mentioned will certainly be given due weight.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will introduce legislation requiring statutory undertakings, such as the Southern Gas Board, to obtain planning consent before erecting gasholders or other buildings on land owned by them.

Statutory undertakers are already required to obtain planning permission before erecting gasholders or other high plant or buildings, except where authority has already been given by Parliament in a private Act or Order or the responsible Minister has directed that planning permission has been deemed to be given.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the present position in regard to the Abingdon Gas Order, 1935, gives a wholly unfair discrimination in favour of public undertakings compared with private citizens who require planning permission? In view of the large number of gasholders which it is intended to erect in the country, will the right hon. Gentleman amend the law very urgently?

As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I have confirmed an Article 4 direction, for which the local planning authority had asked, but as this may become the subject of a public appeal, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will excuse me if I do not comment on this case.

As this is not a unique occurrence and as other cases of gas holders being sought to be erected under these powers are likely to arise, would the right hon. Gentleman say that, in the event of any other local planning authority asking for an Article 4 direction to the same effect, he will also accede to those requests?

I had better not commit myself in advance. This state of affairs has obtained for a number of years and it has generally speaking worked well Since the right hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Sandys) was Minister of Housing and Local Government, there has been a great deal of consultation between the statutory undertakers and the local planning authorities, but I realise that there are doubts as to whether the present method of resolving conflicts is the right one; and we are studying the position at the moment.

asked the Prime Minister whether, irrespective of joining the European Economic Community, he will start taking the necessary steps to reduce the fiscal and legal obstacles to European technological collaboration.

For reasons which, I am sure, the House will understand and respect, I have been asked to reply.

Would my right hon. Friend consider taking a firm decision to introduce a value added tax before 1970 and thus comply with the remaining other six countries in the E.E.C.?

This is a subject which, of course, we have under consideration.

If the Foreign Secretary has this under consideration, why did he introduce the ridiculous Selective Employment Tax and not the value added tax which the Community will have harmonised upon by January, 1970?

The only thing I ever find ridiculous about the noble Lord is the remarks he makes.

asked the Prime Minister if he will centralise the personnel and staff functions in the Civil Service so that this work might be tackled more effectively and in keeping with modern personnel management practice.

I have been asked to reply.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in industry effective use of personnel skills usually arises when a specialist executive is placed on the board? Would not he consider the establishment of a separate Department concerning itself with personnel skills and having a separate Minister answerable here?

Having myself served for a very long period of years in one capacity or another in a large number of Departments, I believe that what my hon. Friend is suggesting is the wrong analogy. In fact, I think that these personnel matters are better handled in each Department, remembering that each one is itself a very large organisation.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of industry is now trying to reduce its office staff and workers generally in order to try to help the economy? Would not he agree that the Government should follow suit and reduce the number of civil servants throughout the country?

Yes, Sir, but it should be remembered that the number of staff any organisation employs—whether it is a private or public enterprise—must, of course, be related to policies—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—and since we are always being pressed by hon. Gentlemen opposite to do more in various spheres, it must be accepted that we require more people to carry out these tasks. I believe that at the end of the day we shall be judged—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—not so much by the number of people we employ but by the results of our policies; and by the time of the next General Election we will be perfectly willing to be so judged.

Would not the country have saved many millions of £s if we had had more civil servants in the Ministry of Civil Aviation?

asked the Prime Minister whether he will arrange for the publication of a White Paper assessing the implications which membership of the European Economic Community would have for British policy in the fields of public ownership and economic planning.

I have been asked to reply.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we want to create a Socialist Europe, as I am sure he does—[Interruption.]—in which public ownership and economic planning play a major rôle, it is very important that our E.F.T.A. partners join with us? Can he say what consultations he is having with E.F.T.A. with this aim in view?

The Opposition are behaving as though we were already at 9.30 in the evening—[Interruption.]

Order. I hope that we will get on to the answer about Europe. Mr. Brown.

We have proposed to our colleagues on the E.F.T.A. Ministerial Council that a meeting should take place in London on Friday, 28th April, so that we can continue the process of consultation with them. The meeting will be a normal Ministerial Council meeting, and will therefore be under the chairmanship of our friend, Mr. Gunnar Lange, the Swedish Minister of Commerce, who is the Chairman of the Council. This meeting will give us an opportunity to consult them fully.

Arising out of the question asked by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand), does the Foreign Secretary recall that on 7th June, 1962, the Prime Minister said that the whole conception of the Treaty of Rome was anti-planning? What has changed since then?

The answer is the way in which the Common Market itself has developed.

asked the Prime Minister on what principles any application for British entry into the European Economic Community will be based.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of the Government deciding that Great Britain should apply to join the European Common Market, he will stipulate the conditions upon the fulfilment of which the Government would recommend accession to the Common Market.

asked the Prime Minister on what principles and conditions he would now consider it appropriate to base an application to join the Common Market.

asked the Prime Minister what stipulations he will now make before deciding to make a formal application to join the European Common Market.

asked the Prime Minister if he will state the conditions on which Her Majesty's Government would now consider making an application to join the Common Market.

I have been asked to reply.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his Answer, but is he aware that it is the opinion of many people in the country that the Government are embarking on a somewhat enigmatic course in relation to integration into Europe? Is he further aware that such a course does not by any means command the complete and universal approbation of people in the country or in the House—

Order. I must protect other hon. Members. That is enough, I think.

Excuse me, Mr. Speaker—I have not finished my supplementary question.

Order. I was delicately conveying to the hon. Gentleman that he had asked enough. Mr. Brown—to answer.

I do not agree with the remark about an enigmatic course. The point is that the Government, as my hon. Friend well knows, are now deciding the terms, the basis, on which we might make an application for membership, and considering whether some other course might be preferable. As soon as we have an announcement to make, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will make it to the House.

But in the event of there being any British application to join the Common Market would not my right hon. Friend agree that it would be better for him to negotiate the democratic control of the institutions of the Common Market before we agree to enter, and as part of any price which this country may agree to pay for entering the European Economic Community?

I will certainly take into account what my hon. Friend has said, hut, speaking for myself, I doubt whether that is the right way to approach the matter.

Have we a 50–50 chance of getting in?

I have taken many a bet on worse terms than that.

In these various conditions that my right hon. Friend has given to the House from time to time, will he bear in mind the need to preserve the right of the National Health Service to be financed to an extent of more than 4 per cent. of the gross national product?

I have no reason for thinking that either the terms of the Treaty of Rome or anything I have learned on our tour round Europe would interfere with that position.

There is one rather obscure point in the Prime Minister's Answer, to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. Is it proposed that there should be a statement and then a debate, or are we to have a statement, a White Paper and then a debate?

My right hon. Friend said that we were considering the issue of the fullest possible information to the House and whether we could do it best in a White Paper. We are considering that, and we will, in fact, consult what we believe to be the wishes of the House. The intention in this matter will be to give the House all the information we can, and to give it an opportunity for a full debate and a decision on the matter.

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House whether the conditions about an independent foreign policy, public ownership and protection of the Commonwealth are still being considered by the Government? What conditions have changed since 1962 now to make it possible for the Government to make such an application?

Obviously, consideration of the problems of our Commonwealth partners must be one of the things uppermost in our minds in any negotiations which we may undertake. I find it hard to deduce that members of the Six have in fact found it difficult to carry out an independent foreign policy. I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the fact that members of the Six have quite a large amount of their economy under public ownership.

A moment or two ago, in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Barnet (Mr. Maudling), the right hon. Gentleman stated, or implied, that the actual operation of the Community in some respects differed from the provisions of the Treaty of Rome. If he means that, will he be good enough to see that the difference is put in any White Paper which is published, so that the House can bring an informed judgment to bear upon these matters?

I neither implied that, nor meant that. What I said—and I will stand on it and put it in any kind of paper the right hon. and learned Gentleman likes—was that the way in which the Community had developed in practice was a good deal different from the way in which some of the federalist advocates some years ago prophesied that it would develop.

In view of the numerous Questions on this subject which are appearing on the Order Paper, may I ask whether the statement of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister which was made upstairs will be made available to the whole House very shortly?

The whole House has before it the very excellent statement which I made upstairs. In view of the tremendous welcome with which it has been received, I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will consider doing the same thing.

Is it not a fact that the Gallup polls show that there is a wider measure of agreement on this question than on almost any other big controversial issue of the day?

How far one takes the polsters into account is a matter of judgment. On the whole, I take them into account when they are on my side and disregard when they are not. This is a matter for us in the House to argue out as well as we can on its merits. My own views are obviously well known. The Government collectively will make their views known to the House fairly soon now, and it will then be for the House to argue it out, and I do not think that we should be deflected too much by what polsters or other people may think.

As one certain outcome of our joining the E.E.C. would be an increase in the cost of living, does not my right hon. Friend agree that this will make the task of the enforcement of the incomes policy that much more difficult than it is at the moment?