asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement about future plans for satellite launchings.

I should like to take this opportunity of expressing our gratitude to the United States National Aeronautics and Space Administration for the part which they played in the outstandingly successful launch of Ariel III. Discussions have been held with N.A.S.A. about a further collaborative programme, including a successor to Ariel III. No decisions have yet been taken. In the meantime, British scientists are at work on more than 20 further scientific experiments which will be flown in E.S.R.O. or N.A.S.A. satellites scheduled for launching during the next year or two.

May I say how glad I am that the Government are considering a successor to U.K.3? Are they thinking about a satellite for surveying the natural resources of the earth, which is a very important matter? Is he satisfied with the balance of effort between scientific and commercial research on satellites?

The responsibilities of my Department, as exercised by the S.R.C., are limited to satellites which are concerned with scientific research in space, but I have no doubt that the Council has within the ambit of its purview the point the hon. Gentleman makes. I think that the second question might be put either to my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General or to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology.

Arising out of that last answer, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is of great importance that there should be proper co-ordination within the Government regarding all matters to do with space? We recognise the genuine difficulties of the organisation of civil science, but this necessity ought always to be borne in mind.

I fully agree.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many schools in the South Dorset constituency still have no proper sanitation.

Only in one primary school is the sanitation not waterborne. In 15 others all the lavatories are in an outside block. In a further nine, and one secondary school, some are outside, some inside.

Will not the hon. Lady give priority to the provision of even the most elementary forms of hygiene in primary schools over the rather dubious and certainly not urgent forms of secondary reorganisation?

It is basically a matter for the local education authority how it decides to spend the money it has for minor works. The Moreton Church of England Primary School, the one in which the sanitation is not waterborne, is to be closed shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has now considered the petition sent to him by the parent/teacher association of St. Paul's Primary School in the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames against his refusal to authorise rebuilding work at this school; and whether, in view of the fact that the buildings concerned are nearly 100 years old, overcrowded, out of date, and inadequate, he will now authorise rebuilding to proceed.

A reply was sent to the parent teacher association on 18th May. It explains why my right hon. Friend was not able to include this school in the 1968–69 major building programme. A further letter from the association has now been received and is being considered.

Does not the hon. Lady think that the bringing up to date of a school of this type is entitled to very high priority? Can she give some indication that it is likely to be approved in the near future, or alternatively will she receive a deputation?

I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman. He will appreciate that there are, and have been for some time, many primary schools in much the same situation. The proportion of the total building programme going to primary schools is now greater than it was in 1966–67. We will certainly consider this for the 1969–70 building programme.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made by his Department in the design of a simple, prefabricated nursery unit suitable for erection at existing infant schools and to assist the early implementation of the Plowden proposals for nursery education.

The Department is reviewing the accommodation requirements of nursery groups and the technical means by which their needs can best be met. This is without prejudice to the Government's decisions on the particular Plowden recommendations.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in certain sections of education the Department, in conjunction with the L.E.A., has done what is referred to in the Question? Would not this be a good way of securing the implementation of the Plowden Report and providing the additional accommodation which is necessary in very many parts of the country?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's suggestion. We are bearing in mind in the technical review which I have mentioned the various sorts of accommodation which can be provided. The suggestion in the Plowden Report that nursery provision may be too lavish at present is one which we obviously cannot reach conclusions about before the technical review is finished.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware that some local authorities are obstructing the progress of comprehensive education; and if he will now introduce legislation to ensure the unhindered development of a non-selective educational system.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he proposes to take when a local authority has clearly shown that it does not intend to submit proposals for the reorganisation of secondary education in their area which will be acceptable to him.

The great majority of authorities have responded willingly to the request made in Circular 10/65. Until I have made further progress in the examination and approval of the plans submitted, I shall keep an open mind about possible future action.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us on this side feel that, if we are to have a non-selective equal-opportunity system of education, it is high time to stop playing noughts and crosses with Tory local education authorities and to introduce legislation to get on with the job?

I am not sure about stopping noughts and crosses, but I think that my hon. Friend may not appreciate the facts of the situation, which are that an extraordinarily small number of local education authorities, of whatever political complexion, are showing themselves reluctant to abolish selection, and by far the great majority are responding willingly to the request which we made in the circular.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, far from obstructing progress in any sort of education, local education authorities are doing their utmost in the best interests of the children and families in their areas, and will he assure the House that it is not his intention to usurp the authority of local education authorities in their own areas?

What the hon. Gentleman has said is absolutely fair. The huge majority of authorities are carefully and conscientiously doing what they believe to be in the best interests of children, and, in fact, this huge majority takes the view that what is in the best interests of the children is the abolition of the 11-plus. As to future action, I have said many times already, and I repeat briefly now, that I do not think that there will be any need for legislation because I believe that we shall continue to have the active co-operation of the great majority of authorities. If a very large number were to defy the clearly expressed national will on this subject, any democratic Government must reserve the right to express that will in legislation. However, I believe that this is a purely hypothetical question.

There is no question about abolishing the 11-plus. Everyone agreed long ago that it must go. Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the crux of the Opposition's objection to his education policy is that it abolishes all selection throughout secondary education?

If hon. and right hon. Members opposite took that view about the 11-plus so long ago, it is curious that they did nothing to get rid of it when they were in office.

Reverting to the original question, is my right hon. Friend aware that many authorities, particularly the London Borough of Ealing, have endeavoured to observe the requirements of his circular but feel to a degree that some obstruction has come from his Department? When the Borough of Ealing submits new proposals, will my right hon. Friend give them more sympathetic consideration?

I shall certainly try to be sympathetic, but, as I think my hon. Friend knows, the only obstruction which came from my Department in the case to which he refers was that I did not happen to agree with the precise proposals which his council put forward. I emphasise how small is the number of cases in which we have had reason to object to the detailed plans submitted by authorities in response to Circular 10/65.

Reverting to the right hon. Gentleman's reply to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South-West (Mr. Longden), is it not the case that a large number of the most workable schemes of reorganisation were started by Conservative-controlled counties some time ago, and is it not totally unfair to suggest that Conservative authorities have nowhere been concerned to abolish the 11-plus?

That would be totally unfair. I was referring not to Conservative authorities but to the Conservative Government. A large number of Conservative authorities showed a most striking initiative in this direction before the circular was issued. What was lacking before this Government came in was any national lead on the question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will revise the arrangements governing payment of pension to retired teachers who are re-employed in part-time work, with the aim of lessening the restriction on the amount of work they can do without loss of pension.

Yes, Sir; I hope in amending regulations which will take affect from 1st July or shortly after to provide that teachers will not lose pension unless their earnings from part-time teaching and their pensions exceed the current salary of the post from which they retired. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland intends to do the same.

That Answer is to be welcomed. Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the change he has announced will help to attract retired teachers to jobs in areas of great shortage, such as in the big cities?

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I hope that it will have precisely the effect which he describes.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Did I understand my right hon. Friend to make a statement on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scotland indicating his intention in this matter, and do I take it that no further statement will be made by the Secretary of State for Scotland?

Wasting time.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will give details of those schools for mentally-handicapped children in which corporal punishment is administered; and if he will make a statement.

This information is not available. My right hon. Friend will consider the use of corporal punishment in special schools when he considers the revelant recommendations of the Plowden Committee and the comments from bodies representing the local education authorities and the teachers. I am also considering the use of corporal punishment in independent schools in my Cholderton College Inquiry.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that a disturbing, if isolated, case in Liverpool recently indicates that, although that case may well be exceptional, the law needs strengthening in this respect? Will she now give instructions or guidance to local authorities in dealing with this rather specialised aspect of the general problem?

The answer to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question is that, in the light of the recommendations from the authorities and from the teachers' organisations, we have already said that we shall announce our conclusions about corporal punishment. As regards the special case which my hon. Friend has in mind. I understand that Liverpool Education Committee is at present discussing the whole question of the use of corporal punishment in its area and the present rules concerning it with the local associations of teachers.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, in view of the fact that only two delegates out of 500 at the National Association of Headmasters' Conference at Harrogate voted to abolish corporal punishment in schools, what action he now proposes to retain this form of punishment; and if he will make a statement.

I am aware of the views of the National Association of Head Teachers. But, as I have already said in reply to an earlier Question, I am not yet ready to make a further statement on the recommendations of the Plowden Report.

Since the headmasters are speaking from experience—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—since the headmasters are speaking from experience, and since they have the support of the majority of people in this country, will not the Minister act on their advice?

They may have the support of a number of people in the country. They certainly do not have my support. I have said again and again that my personal view is the same as that of the Plowden Committee. The only practical question which we have to decide, in view of the fact that corporal punishment in the schools is on the decrease in any case, is whether to ban it by law will help or hinder the process.

As every country in Europe, if not in the world, other than Britain, has stopped this medieval practice, does not the Question merely show the need for retraining 498 headmasters? Would my right hon. Friend bring our schools into line with our Prison Department?

I certainly would not like to take on the task of retraining all the head teachers in Britain. I am aware of the facts to which my hon. Friend draws attention; they were discussed in detail in the Plowden Report. From my point of view, the only question is what best will help the process which is already under way.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if, in view of the fact that corporal punishment does not inculcate either good behaviour or intellectual progress, he will take steps to ensure that it is abandoned in schools under his authority, and that where a penalty for misbehaviour is merited there is substituted for corporal punishment as a penalty extra intellectual study appropriate to the course of the particular student followed by an essay on that subject within a limited period.

As I have said in reply to an earlier Question, I am not yet ready to make a general statement about corporal punishment in schools. In any case I should not want to prescribe particular forms of alternative punishment.

Would the Minister agree that if duress is exercised upon misbehaving students it should take the form of encouraging them to further study in the way indicated in my Question by getting them to do extra work in their own time?

I realise that if corporal punishment were to be abolished alternative penalties would have to be found. But I do not regard it as part of my responsibility to lay down whether this should be essays on a particular subject or anything else. I have enough difficulty with my own children without taking on the country's children.

Would the Minister resist the suggestion, because to impose this savage punishment inflicts a greater burden both on the student and on the teacher?

And, I may add, on parents very often.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is satisfied with the number of swimming baths provided in colleges of education; and if he will make a statement.

At a time when resources are inevitably limited, our particular concern must be that the 25 colleges which train intending specialist teachers of physical education should have adequate facilities for swimming, either in the form of college baths or through the part-time use of other baths that are reasonably accessible. At present, 11 of these colleges have their own swimming baths.

But it remains the fact that only 14 out of the 160 colleges have their own pool. In view of the large number of children being drowned—157 between the ages of 6 and 15 in 1965—does not the hon. Gentleman accept that our main aim must be to have a growing number of teachers qualified in swimming, canoeing and sailing?

We recognise the advantage of having teachers who can teach swimming. I accept, also, that it would be useful if those with a special interest in swimming learned how to teach it. But capital investment resources must for the present be concentrated on projects designed to assist colleges to expand their student numbers in order to make more productive use of existing teaching facilities.

If there has to be some priority in the provision of swimming baths, ought it not to be directed to the primary schools rather than to colleges of education?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend has noted that point.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has yet reached conclusions about the major recommendations of the Plowden Report.

No, Sir.

In the light of the proportion of the national product which seems likely to be available for education, the now defunct National Plan and the actual growth in the economy in recent years, does the right hon. Gentleman honestly believe that he will be able to implement any of the main recommendations of Plowden in the foreseeable future, or, in the circumstances, is he putting off his decision because of those considerations?

The education part of the National Plan is still being carried out, and I have every expectation that it will be carried out, so I think that the hon. Gentleman's question may be based on a false assumption. As to why I am not yet ready to make a statement, the main reason, as hon. Members know from the debate we had, is that I have asked for the views of all the major associations of the 197 recommendations of the Plowden Report, and there are two important associations which have not yet submitted their views to me.

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to make a statement on the recommendations before the House rises for the Summer Recess? Second, will he consider the representations made from this side on a number of points which do not involve great expenditure, for example, the proposal for two entry dates a year instead of three?

I would not like to commit myself to making a statement before the House rises, though I shall certainly try. On the latter part of the right hon. Gentleman's question, I agree that some of the recommendations do not involve expenditure, but, on the other hand, almost all the recommendations are closely interlinked and I think that it would not be just to the Report itself to make a series of piecemeal statements rather than one general statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has completed his inquiries into the proposals for arrangements to relieve financial hardship among overseas students studying in Britain; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Lady to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) on 5th June.—[Vol. 747, c. 143–4.]

Will the Minister give an assurance that he will not lose sight of the fact that such aid gives a very important bonus of good will towards Britain, and that this good will is far greater than that which comes to us from other countries where large strings of grants are made far in excess of the money involved here?

I shall certainly bear that in mind. Indeed, I agree with what the hon. Lady said. The whole purpose of the hardship fund is to make sure that no overseas student currently here, particularly from the developing countries, will have to give up the course he is currently engaged on because of the increase in fees.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is yet possible to tell from the statistics for admission to the universities in October how many people are likely to be accepted from developing countries, and whether this shows any fall in number in recent years?

No, Sir. It is not possible yet to give any such estimate. When I can, I shall give it to the House. As my hon. Friend probably knows, students committed to entering a course this autumn are not excluded from the operation of the hardship fund.

With the Summer Recess no more than two months away, will the Minister recognise that there is a time factor here and that some of us are being embarrassed by not being able to advise constituents as to what measures they must take in order to attract consideration for this plan?

Yes, Sir. The right hon. and learned Gentleman has corresponded with me about at least one of his constituents on this. I am glad to tell the House that the Advisory Board held its first meeting only three days ago, and it will shortly hold its second meeting. Therefore, the operation is now proceeding very rapidly. The right course of action for any student who feels that he may suffer hardship is now to approach his university or college, as the case may be.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what estimate he has made of the administrative costs likely to be incurred by universities and other institutions of higher education, the University Grants Committee and Government Departments, in operating the proposed equalisation fund for dealing with cases of hardship to overseas students and inequity to colleges arising out of the Government's decision to increase the tuition fees of overseas students to £250 per year.

The costs to the British Council and the Advisory Board will be small. I do not expect that there will be identifiable increases in administrative costs elsewhere in the educational system.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that individual colleges are setting up equalisation funds, that universities are setting up equalisation funds for colleges within themselves and that now we have the University Grants Committee setting up equalisation funds between universities? Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that when the administrative costs of all this rigmarole are added up they are likely to exceed the savings which the Government hope to achieve in this exercise?

I could not possibly accept that suggestion. We have made available a substantial sum to assist in cases of hardship. Universities and other institutions and organisations remain free to operate their own system of assistance apart from this fund. As I have said, the costs of administration are likely to be very small indeed.

Can the hon. Gentleman say how many institutions have notified the Government that they will not follow the Government's advice by increasing overseas students' fees?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to ensure that the fees charged for higher education in the United Kingdom to students from developing countries should be no greater than those charged to United Kingdom residents.

No, Sir. But the position of students from developing countries has been very much in mind in the easements which I have already announced.

I welcome my right hon. Friend's Answer, but would he say something about his long-term plans in view of the fact that higher education is a valuable form of aid to under-developed countries? One hopes that, as he said, he will treat students from such countries as being in a special category. Would my right hon. Friend give us some details?

I agree that higher education is an invaluable form of aid, although I must add in fairness that it may be better to provide it in the countries concerned rather than in this country. I am conscious of the longer-term programme and I am keeping it under consideration with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Overseas Development.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why, in view of the fact that there is no Roman Catholic infants school on the west side of Northampton and that no Roman Catholic school has been built in Northampton for 80 years, he has not included Kings Heath Roman Catholic Infants School in the 1968–69 programme.

Because there was no need for additional primary school places in this part of Northampton. My right hon. Friend did include a Roman Catholic Infants School in the 1967–68 programme.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, if there is to be sectarian education at all, to have one school on the east side of Northampton and none on the west side, so that Catholic children must cross the main arteries, is very dangerous and should be dealt with?

My hon. and learned Friend will appreciate that it is not possible to do everything at once. The school which was programmed last year is the first Roman Catholic school to be programmed for Northampton for 80 years—as my hon. and learned Friend said in his Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in view of the shortage of teachers, he will institute the award of a B.Ed. degree to serving teachers of sufficient experience and upon suitable recommendations from Her Majesty's inspectors of schools and from head teachers without their having to take a full-time course.

I hope that when the B.Ed. degree has been firmly established it will prove possible to provide opportunities for qualified teachers to take part-time as well as full-time courses leading to its award.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that encouraging reply, but does he realise that many teachers with 10 years' or more experience, and with distinctions on their teaching certificates are very concerned about this, and that there is a strong case for the degrees to be awarded, at least in part, on merit and experience?

I agree with the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. There is a case for teachers' experience being taken into consideration in part when the time comes to plan the extent and duration of these courses for this class of people.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many serving teachers find it very difficult to get permission to take a B.Ed. degree?

That remains to be seen. The arrangements are not yet in train. I hope that when the time comes local authorities and others will make it possible for suitable students from this sphere to proceed to part-time or full-time study for the degree.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consideration is given in teacher training colleges in England and Wales to evolving techniques for remedial training of children in the lower streams of secondary schools who are at risk of becoming hooligans or vandals.

I do not think there is any simple answer to the problem the hon. Member has in mind, but colleges of education do discuss with their students the difficulties which some children can create for their schools and neighbourhoods and the individual needs and treatment of such children.

Since the Home Secretary's Advisory Council on the Penal System now includes the prevention of crime in its terms of reference, will the Minister look again at his Answer and suggest to teacher training colleges that they might be a little more alert and enterprising in this?

Many, if not all, colleges of education introduce discussions, seminars and visits by officials engaged in this work into their courses, and some of them have adopted youth clubs for practical study and service. As a Department, we have organised conferences and published a number of reports which have proved helpful to the colleges. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is quite fair to the generality of colleges of education when he suggests that so little has been done in this respect.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be more appropriate at this stage to deal with the whole question of streaming, which to a large extent is the cause of the state of affairs to which the hon. Gentleman referred?

That is one of a number of considerations to be borne in mind in tackling this very important and difficult matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of lecturers in literary subjects who have lectured for the Arts Council in England and Wales during the past 18 months, and state what fees were paid in each case, the number of people who attended each lecture or function, and the names of those on the panel responsible for arranging the engagement of the lecturers.

I assume that the hon. Member is referring to poetry recitals. I am arranging for the necessary information to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I thank the right hon. Lady for that reply. But my Question referred to all lecturers on literary subjects; perhaps she could amend her Reply in that sense.

I looked into this matter, but I found that it is only poetry recitals that

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make it a condition of the financial support given from public funds to the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, that tickets are fairly distributed; and if he will make it a condition that the authorities should inquire into the sources of tickets for performances which have been allegedly sold out.

Where the demand for tickets exceeds the number of seats, problems inevitably arise. I have for some time back been discussing the whole matter with both the Arts Council and the Opera House and fully agree with my hon. Friend that not only must justice be done but be seen to be done.

I thank my right hon. Friend, but is she aware that people in the North feel that they are having a very raw deal in the allocation of tickets—and they assure me that they all pay their taxes.

There has been a good deal of criticism about ticket agencies, but only 248 seats out of 2,158 are allocated through them. We are looking into the problem, which is difficult, and we do want fair play.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science to what extent he estimates that, as a result of the decision to raise the school leaving age in 1970, it will be necessary to increase the percentage of the gross national product applied to education.

By about 0·1 per cent. in 1970–71.

Is the Minister aware that that Answer is slightly different to the one he gave some time ago to a rather similar question? But bearing in mind the increased realism shown by this, is he satisfied that the increase will be adequate?

I am not aware that the Answer differs from any previous Answer I have given on this subject. I think that this increase will prove adequate.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is satisfied that by 1970 there will be sufficient school accommodation and sufficient teachers properly qualified to teach pupils in the upper forms staying on for the additional year when the school leaving age is raised to 16 years.

Yes, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that many members of the teaching profession believe that the accomodation available will be quite inadequate and that the number of teachers who have been properly trained to deal with the extra year's curriculum will also be inadequate to cope with the problem? Will he consult the teachers' organisations concerned?

This is a matter which I have more than once discussed with all the main teachers' organisations. I think that I am familiar with their views. They have natural apprehensions on the subject, but I am satisfied that the amount we have made available for building—well over £100 million—in addition to our teacher supply programme will provide the necessary facilities.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will introduce legislation to control the costs, reliability and standards of comfort on educational cruises; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the charges for these cruises, which I admit are very desirable and a good form of education, sometimes impose very severe hardships on the parents? Would it not be possible to reduce the cost of the cruises, because they are normally fully taken up and the standard of accommodation is not as high as all that when compared with normal cruises and some of the administrative costs are borne by the teachers themselves in collecting the money?

My hon. Friend's comments may be correct. But this is a matter to be settled between the local education authorities and the companies concerned. Some local education authorities assist parents with the costs of sending children on educational cruises.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many thousands of families are convinced of the educational, financial and safety value of these cruises?

Yes. They have a very useful rôle to perform.

Is the hon. Lady aware that I have been on one of these cruises and that the criticisms made by the hon. Gentleman are absolutely wrong? Conditions are completely comfortable.

asked the Secretary Of State for Education and Science what steps he takes, in order to carry out his functions under Part III of the Education Act, 1944, to inform himself of the reasons why professional associations of independent schools refuse to admit to membership particular headmasters or headmistresses.

None, Sir. But my right hon. Friend is always ready to consider any relevant information given to him by any well-established association.

As associations carry out their own system of inspection into the running of schools by applicants asking for membership, is the hon. Lady aware that certain mistakes would have been avoided by her Department if there had been greater contact between her Department and those associations.

We have our own system of inspection. The Question was basically about the membership of professional associations, which is not a matter in which we think it proper to interfere.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what would be the present-day equivalents of the maximum educational maintenance allowances recommended in the Weaver Report in 1957, adjusted proportionately with the increases in the allowances for children over 15 years of age in the National Assistance—supplementary benefit scales.

Educational maintenance allowances are a matter for the discretion of local education authorities. I estimate that current equivalents would be about £107, £130 and £142 for ages 15, 16 and 17 as compared with £55, £65 and £75.

Is my hon. Friend aware that her arithmetic does not agree with mine? Can she tell us how many education authorities, if any, are paying the rates which she mentioned?

I am not sure which of us has to teach the other. The latest available information relates to May, 1964, when the great majority of local education authorities were paying considerably more than the allowances laid down.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to the proposed 300 GEV accelerator for C.E.R.N.

On its present time table, the C.E.R.N. Council will reach decisions about the 300 GEV project in December. Her Majesty's Government will be fully ready then to take a policy decision in the light of the advice received from the S.R.C. and the C.S.P.

Is the Secretary of State aware that our attitude to this project, which has hitherto been thoroughly noncommittal, might be instrumental in persuading other nations to participate? Would not he agree that the consequences of failure to reach a conclusion on the project would lead to the wasteful proliferation of small national accelerators and a vast increase in the number of nuclear physicists emigrating to the United States?

I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but I must make it clear that no Government have yet come to a firm decision on this project. It would be very difficult to do so until we are much clearer than we are about what may be proposed in terms of cost, location, the allocation of costs and many other factors.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, while no British Government may have come to a firm conclusion, the French Government have welcomed the proposal, and there is a danger that the British Government may be seen to be dragging its feet once more in European collaboration in science?

I do not think that that is a view which could be or is taken any- where in Europe. Apart from anything else, the opposite is demonstrated by the attention which we are giving to investigating a possible site for this accelerator.

I recognise the great importance of this project, but could the right hon. Gentleman give us some idea of the cost bracket which is contemplated for this machine? The C.E.R.N. consortium may shortly prove not sufficiently wide to bear the increasing cost of accelerators.

I should not like to give a definite figure, but the cost is very high indeed. What the right hon. and learned Gentleman said in the second part of his supplementary question is relevant, but until we have more definite proposals from the C.E.R.N. Council the Government would be very foolish and imprudent to come to a definite decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement about the possibility of siting in East Anglia the proposed new accelerator planned by C.E.R.N.

This possibility depends on decisions due to be taken by the Council of C.E.R.N. in December. The site in East Anglia offered by Her Majesty's Government is still under consideration, together with eight sites in other countries.

While I realise that much must depend on the decisions in December, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Science Research Council is working closely with the Regional Economic Planning Council to make sure that the necessary facilities would be available were this site to be chosen?

I should like to look into the point about the Regional Economic Planning Council and write to the hon. Gentleman. But the Science Research Council, in co-operation with a number of other bodies, is doing a great deal of work on the possibilities of this site.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, as we are certainly the third scientific Power of the world, we have not so far had our fair share in the allocation of sites for international research bodies? Will he constantly press the view that our co-operation must depend to some extent on having a fair crack of the whip?

I would agree with the right hon. Gentleman. This is one of the reasons why, until we know the decision about a site, and other factors, we cannot take a final view on the project.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been done recently to maintain the National Youth Orchestra.

The Arts Council is making the Orchestra a grant of £20,000 in the current financial year.

I thank the right hon. Lady for that information. Is she satisfied that this will keep the National Youth Orchestra in full being in view of the fact that it is so important to the musical future of the country?

I am entirely satisfied. I much appreciate the hon. Lady's interest in this orchestra.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will state the date and manner of implementation of the revised salary scales for clinical, medical and dental teaching staff.

The revised salary scales for university clinical staff, which are effective from 1st October, 1966, will be put into payment immediately after the period of severe restraint, which ends on 30th June, 1967.

I am grateful for that statement. However, is the Minister aware that doubt as to the method of payment still exists among the people concerned, and will he make clear whether it is to be paid in instalments, as mentioned by his right hon. Friend, or in a lump sum?

Payment will be made without being phased or paid in instalments. It will be in a lump sum.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the difficulties of financing amateur athletics in this country what is the extent of Government assistance at present available to the Amateur Athletic Association and whether he will give special assistance to help them face their present crisis.

Yes, Sir. Government assistance to the Amateur Athletic Association is at the rate of £26,000 per annum. I am offering in addition a special grant of £5,000 this year to meet the grave financial situation facing the Association. The Byers Committee are examining the long term difficulties of athletics and this additional grant is subject to the agreement we have reached with the A.A.A. that they will consider the implementation of its recommendations in consultation with my Department.

That is very welcome news. But is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the Association is administratively capable of making the most effective use of this extra money? Can he say whether it is hoped that the Byers Committee will come up with some long-term proposals for a new financial structure for athletics?

I am satisfied that the Association is able to make use of the grant to which I have referred. As to the longer term, I would hope that the Byers Committee will come up with a very thorough report examining all the matters to which my hon. Friend referred.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he is taking to revise and improve the system of collecting statistics on the provision of textbooks in schools.

The Department first collected information about expenditure on library and textbooks for the financial year 1964–65. We are keeping the arrangements under review.

May I remind the hon. Lady that in the Easter Adjournment debates she said that she hoped the Department would be improving the provision of statistics on this important branch of education?

I would point out that prior to 1964–65 the Department collected no statistics. We must give some opportunity to see how the system is working.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he is taking to provide additional facilities in public buildings for badminton clubs, in view of the shortage of facilities for badminton in many areas following the closure of the Territorial Army drill halls.

The Regional Sports Council is concerned to secure the fullest possible use of all existing facilities suitable to sport. In addition it has made a special survey of surplus drill halls and is drawing the attention of local authorities to those suitable for purchase as multi-purpose sports centres.

As the Government are responsible for the policy of closing drill halls, will the Department now issue a circular to local education authorities suggesting that wherever possible they make school halls available to badminton clubs to meet the serious shortage in many areas?

Action of that order has been taken, but I will look into the possibility of drawing to the attention of local authorities what the hon. Member has said.