asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement upon the progress of the Eastern Avenue by-pass scheme, Cardiff.

Demolition work has begun at the site of the Gabalfa interchange and some statutory undertakers' works have started.

I hope that construction of the interchange will start early next summer and of Eastern Avenue itself about six months later.

Would my hon. Friend explain the two months delay which has recently occurred as a result of a decision to recite the road along the railway line and can he say whether this will lead to a saving in money, because this road has already caused a heavy toll on houses in my constituency?

Part of the delay is due to the proposed railway closure. This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, but I understand that a decision is expected shortly.

As for savings on the road, the answer is in the affirmative. By taking advantage of this we can reduce the amount of private land required and construct the new road more cheaply.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales why he accepted the recent registration of a company under the name of Welsh National Theatre Company, in view of the fact that it preempts the right of an official Welsh National Theatre Company to be so called.

My right hon. Friend has no responsibility in the registration of companies. He is, of course, anxious that all concerned should work in harmony to bring about the creation of a national theatre in Wales and the development of a worthy company to occupy it.

As there are extreme misgivings among the supporters of the National Theatre Movement in Wales, will the Minister use his influence, which is considerable, with the sponsors of the company to get them to delete the name "National" from the company's name as it is thought that it is trying to preempt the right to use the name "National Theatre Company"?

There appears to be some degree of misunderstanding in the matter, but, on the word "National", I understand that at the meeting of the Continuation Committee last Saturday it was resolved to accept and to reciprocate the offer of co-operation made by the company. It now seems right to wait and see how this offer is received by the National Convention at a meeting to be held shortly.

I also emphasise that my right hon. Friend is interested as vice-president, which office he accepted in perfect good faith, and also in good faith he is expecting that all concerned will co-operate to achieve as quickly as possible what everyone wants, which is a national theatre and a worthy company. My right hon. Friend deplores—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] The point was made and I am entitled to reply to it. I was about to say that my right hon. Friend deplores any difficulties which might delay the realisation of this achievement.

Order. Long answers pre-empt Questions.

I understand that this is a difficult matter and it is not easy for the Minister to give an answer, but could he reply to this question. As it asks in the Question, does he think in fact that the action which has been taken pre-empts the right of an official Welsh National Theatre Company to be so called?

I agree that my previous reply was long, but this is an important matter. The answer is that I do not think it does pre-empt. Emphasis should be on co-operation, joint consultation and a better understanding.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I intend to seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what reply he has made to the letter he has received from the Council for the Protection of Rural Wales in regard to the proposed erection of smelling works and a bauxite and aluminia factory at the Penrhos district of Anglesey.

My right hon. Friend has informed the Council that the application for planning permission for this development will be the subject of a public inquiry on 9th January, 1968, and that all relevant issues will be taken fully into account. I am sending the hon. Member a copy of my right hon. Friend's reply.

May I point out that the letter in reply to the Council did not deal with the point about part of the site being an area of great natural beauty and the fact that this matter was started on 29th September only? Finally, may I ask the hon. Lady whether an I.D.C. has been received?

The fact that an order designating an area of outstanding natural beauty has been made does not in itself automatically preclude development in the area concerned. It means that proposals for development need to be considered with special care bearing in mind this designation. An I.D.C. has certainly been issued.

Mr. Elystan Morgan, to ask the next Question.

On a point of order. May I ask the Minister to reply to the Question?

Order. Mr. Elystan Morgan.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of new jobs that will be created in Wales by 1970 under the new measures announced on 14th November.

The new trading estate land could produce eventually some 19,000 jobs but it is too early to estimate how many of these jobs will become available by 1970 nor the effect by them of the other special measures announced a fortnight ago.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. May I ask whether he concedes the case for the extension of this second-tier assistance to other areas which find it very difficult to attract industry?

I take it that my hon. Friend is referring to Mid-Wales. As he knows, I am anxious to see a healthy rate of industrial development in Mid-Wales, and facilities have been made available there to encourage this. My hon. Friend will know that part of the land in the New Town designation area is planned for industrial development.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of new jobs needed in Wales by 1971 in order that unemployment should be reduced and migration avoided.

The White Paper (Cmnd. 3334) which I presented in July sets out the employment prospects for Wales and the assumptions on which they were based. Since those estimates were made last March, the prospects for 1971 have been improved by the regional employment premium, decisions to disperse Government establishments to Wales and other Government measures.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that apart from the 42,000 persons in Wales who are today unemployed, and apart from the rapid rundown in our basic industries, we have had a hidden unemployment of about 97,000 people due to the wretchedly low employment activity rate in Wales? Would not a more realistic assessment be somewhere nearer 150,000 new jobs by 1971?

I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's figures, nor do I know where he got them. We are confident that the measures which we are taking will resolve our problems over the next five years.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales with what individual local councils in Wales he has had or will have consultations concerning the proposals in his White Paper on Local Government Reorganisation in Wales.

I have received the individual written comments of almost all the local authorities in Wales and I am arranging for oral discussions with groups of neighbouring authorities.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, since the proposed measures have been taken, the wholesale abolition and amalgamation of councils throughout Wales will destroy so many effective local government units, and it would be wise to have a great number of local discussions, and to give more time to local councils and the public to discusss the matter?

What has encouraged me is the general welcome which my proposals have received in Wales, and it is my intention, and that of my hon. Friends, to meet groupings of local authorities, and at these meetings individual representatives from local authorities will be able to put their points of view.

The right hon. Gentleman said that he has had a general welcome for his proposals. Would not he agree that these replies are not all in favour of his suggestions, although, as he rightly says, most local authorities, or a proportion of them, are in favour?

Certainly there are differences of view about various aspects of the White Paper, but in general it has received a very encouraging welcome.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans the Government have for setting up local development agencies in Wales.

Wales already has a Development Corporation and a Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association. There is no present intention of establishing further agencies.

Is the hon. Lady aware that what fired my Question was a statement in The Sunday Times of 19th November which said that throughout the country, not only in Wales, local development agencies were being set up'? Is this a fact or not?

I think that the hon. Gentleman has been in the House for long enough to know that speculation in newspapers is not the same as an official statement. As far as Wales is concerned, we have a Government Department, and my right hon. Friend and others are concerned with economic development in Wales. As I said, at the moment we do not see any need for multiplying entities still further.

Has the hon. Lady considered giving greater support to the Mid-Wales Development Association, and perhaps transforming its character so that it can be used for leadership in the industrial sphere in Mid-Wales in a way in which it has not had the funds or resources to do in the past?

I am surprised to hear the hon. and learned Gentleman say that. Surely he knows that the Mid-Wales Industrial Development Association has been giving the most effective leadership within its sphere, and it has also had considerable help from the Government whenever it has asked for it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is now satisfied that the majority of local government bodies in Wales support an elected council for Wales; and if he will make a statement.

While the majority of those who have commented in writing are in favour of an elected council, the local authorities are by no means unanimous and few of the replies received have dealt in detail with the vital question of the functions. The issues are being discussed at the series of meetings I am at present having with the local authority associations.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that about a fortnight ago a poll published in the daily newspapers showed that a majority of the people of Wales were in favour of a Parliament, that clearly an overwhelming majority were in favour of an elected council? Does he not concede the validity of the old Welsh proverb, Trech Gwlâd, nac Arglwydd, which, translated, means that the will of the people will ultimately triumph over every authority?

One does not always look to poll:, in newspapers to find the will of the people. The will of the people will be manifested at the next General Election. It would be premature for me at this stage to enlarge on my reply because of the consultations which are going on with the local authority associations, and with the groupings to which I have referred.

In view of the extensive changes contemplated, and the question of the elected or non-elected council, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be wise for him to have the benefit of seeing the conclusions of the Royal Commission on Local Government in England and Wales before he makes any final decision about these rather difficult matters?

I shall look with great interest at the conclusions of the Royal Commission.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales to what extent his plans for the Welsh development areas take account of the latest published figures of the reduction in the numbers of mineworkers employed.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) on 16th November.—[Vol. 754, cols. 199–200.]

That may be so, and I shall look at it, but may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, in this connection, he accepts the figures given by the Chairman of the National Coal Board, both on television and in the newspapers, or whether he accepts the figures given by his right hon Friend the Minister of Power?

As I explained in my reply to my hon. Friend on 16th November, full allowance was made in the White Paper for the impact of colliery closures up to 1971, and since then the Government have introduced further measures to assist particular areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action is being taken by his Department to make available suitable forms to enable leaseholders who are eligible under the Leasehold Reform Act to acquire their freeholds, and whose leases have expired after 8th December, 1964; and what further action is being taken to draw the attention of all leaseholders to the regulations intended to be prescribed by the Lord Chancellor giving effect to the notices.

Regulations prescribing forms for this purpose will be laid before Parliament and published on 4th December. They will be brought to the attention of the legal profession in the usual way.

Notices served before 1st January, 1968, by eligible leaseholders whose leases have already expired need not be made on a prescribed form; however, all notices submitted after that date must be on a prescribed form, although there is nothing to prevent the form being used once it is published on 4th December next.

I thank my hon. Friend for that useful information. In view of the urgency of this matter to the people of Wales, and particularly in other parts of the United Kingdom for those whose leases have expired, will she ensure that the information which she has given is more widely disseminated?

As I said, it will be placed before the legal profession, and I hope that anyone considering enfranchisement will consult a solicitor.

Will my hon. Friend make it publicly clear when such an application from such tenants is made, for example for a 50-year extension, such tenants should receive nothing more nor less? One or two cases have come to my attention where they have been offered alternatives, including a premium?

I think that the legislation is clear on this point, but anyone considering action should take legal advice.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to make an announcement about the establishment of a National Film School.

The important issues raised by the Lloyd Committee's Report are now being carefully studied.

Will my right hon. Friend please bear in mind that there is a fund of good will on this side of the House for any development along these lines, as such a development would be of great assistance in releasing creative energies among our people, would be a considerable help to exports, and. above all, because the idea of a National Film School enjoys great support among the commercial film industry?

I agree with what my hon. Friend is saying, and I think it is well worth noting that because of this very valuable report, commercial interests, art and educational interests, and trade unionists, agree that it would be very useful.

It may be impossible now to give extra funds for this project, but is the right hon. Lady aware that there is good will on both sides of the House for a project of this kind when funds can be made available?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I hope that all our future exchanges will be equally agreeable.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what allocation he intends to make in the 1968–69 and 1969–70 building pro- grammes for the implementation of the Plowden proposals for nursery education.

I cannot yet say when it will be possible to contemplate any expansion of nursery education on the lines recommended in the Plowden Report.

My right hon. Friend will be aware that that is a very disappointing reply. Cannot he tell the House whether some of the £16 million that his predecessor found after the publication of the Plowden Report will be used to provide nursery education, especially in educating priority areas? If not, why not?

Because the £16 million is a capital sum set aside, which will go mainly into building primary schools, but also some secondary schools. Nursery education, which I am in favour of extending in education priority areas, would involve current money all the time.

Will the Minister tell us what steps he is taking to encourage local authorities to provide nursery classes in existing schools in accordance with the policy propounded when the Conservative Government were in power as long ago as 1963?

Local education authorities do provide this—on a small scale, I am afraid. I cannot encourage it by the rate support grant, because I have not enough money to do that at the moment. The more local education authorities do this the happier I will be.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what response he has had from local education authorities and medical officers of health to his letter on drug addiction.

All but four local education authorities have now replied to the Department's letter to chief education officers and principal school medical officers. None of them had firm evidence of drug addiction among school children or students, but a number reported youthful experimentation with what are known as soft drugs. Authorities showed concern at the situation, and most had taken steps to acquaint teachers and youth leaders of the dangers.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. The exercise is well worth while. Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that it is necessary to keep an eye on this matter in order to make sure that local education authorities do investigate these cases under their care?

I can assure my hon. Friend that we shall continue to keep a very close eye on the matter. As she says, local education authorities have opened up considerable discussions with their medical officers and others resulting from this exchange of Questions in the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) whether he will now direct that the Monkscroft Primary School be approved for building in 1970–71; (2) whether he will now approve that the next part of the Bournside Comprehensive School in Cheltenham be built in 1970–71.

My right hon. Friend is at present considering proposals put to him by local education authorities for the 1970–71 programme, but I cannot yet say whether he will be able to include these projects.

In view of these two Questions being taken together, and the boast of the Secretary of State for Defence that £2,000 million more was being spent on the social services, may I ask the right hon. Lady to make certain that there is sufficient for the primary schools in this area of considerable growth? Secondly, as the comprehensive school is the only purpose-built comprehensive school in the area, is it not ridiculous to cut it off when it is half built, instead of finishing it?

We shall be considering projects from all over the country for the 1970–71 programme. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will realise that it will be impossible to make an announcement about one project when each one has to be measured against the needs in other areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is aware of the unsatisfactory and inadequate facilities for teaching at Strensall Primary School; why he turned down the proposals of the North Riding County Council to replace this school in their 1968–69 and 1969–70 building programmes; and what proposals he is initiating for the improvement of primary education in this area.

Yes, Sir. This replacement could not be included in the 1968–70 programmes because other projects were more urgent. The local education authority intends to provide a mobile classroom.

Does the right hon. Lady realise that the original school is so overcrowded that children are now being taught in three separate buildings, each half a mile apart, and that the sanitary and ablution conditions are absolutely primitive? Will she reconsider this decision? It is not fair to ask either teachers or pupils to teach or learn under such conditions.

This is a very old school, and the conditions are rather deplorable. It is over 100 years old. I am not sure what the right hon. Gentleman is asking me to reconsider. A mobile classroom will still be needed even if the school is included in the 1970–71 programme, because if it were included it would take some time to build. As I said in answer to the previous Question, we have not yet determined the projects to be allowed in the 1970–71 programme.

On a point of order. In view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what provision is made for higher education in technology in the Northern Region.

Facilities for higher education in technology are provided at the Universities of Durham and Newcastle-upon-Tyne, the colleges of technology at Middlesbrough, Newcastle - upon - Tyne and Sunderland, and at certain other technical colleges.

I thank my hon. Friend for her reply, but is she aware that of the 17 entirely new universities established since 1960 none has been sited in the Northern Region, and that of the urgent needs of the Northern Region this is probably one of the most urgent—the need for a new technological university?

I recognise the strength of feeling behind my right hon. Friend's supplementary question. I think that there has been considerable expansion in existing universities. In addition, the three proposed establishments at Middlesbrough, Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Sunderland are included in the Appendix to the White Paper on Polytechnics, and these should provide a great deal more higher education facilities.

Can the hon. Lady tell us what this involves financially, so that we can judge whether we shall get additional technical education in the Northern Region? We might not be getting very much, from what she says. We want to know exactly what it is.

It would help if the hon. Lady were to put down a specific question, but generally it is fair to say that the establishment of polytechnics means an expansion of places in higher education, not least in the technological subjects with which she is concerned.

Is the hon. Lady aware that while my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) and I appreciated the difficulties about the Robbins suggestion for six new universities by 1973–74, none the less we felt that there was a strong case for one new technological institution in the North-East? Will she assure us that the Government's mind is not completely closed on this matter, even if the time limit must now be put further back?

I appreciate, as does the right hon. Member, that the case for an additional institution in the North-East is a strong one, but he should also appreciate that there is a grave need to build up existing universities to a viable size before reopening the list.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will announce the composition and terms of reference of the committee which he is setting up to examine the structure of national libraries.

For the terms of reference I refer the hon. Gentleman to my statement in the House on 26th October. I hope to announce the composition of the Committee shortly. As already announced, Dr. Dainton, Vice-Chancellor of Nottingham University, has accepted by invitation to be Chairman.—[Vol. 751, c. 1905.]

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House why it is taking so long to form this committee? Secondly, will he say whether or not the committee will be precluded by its terms of reference from considering a site for the National Library adjacent to the British Museum?

I do not think that I am taking very long. It is important to get the right kind of people. I have to discuss the names with Dr. Dainton and various people who are being invited. Many of them are extremely busy people and they might not be able to take up the position. They may be able to recommend—I hope that they will, because in my opinion it will be right—that the site should be in Central London, but the Government's decision on the Bloomsbury site is a final one.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the siting of the National Library for Science and Technology in the provinces was an important and valuable precedent, and will he resist any attempt to move this Library to London or the Home Counties?

Certainly.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, what proposals he has to replace all or part of grants for postgraduate studies by a system of loans.

I have no proposals to make.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman think again about this subject, in view of the fact that there will obviously be an enormous growth in the number of postgraduate students? Does he agree that, with an immense increase in public funds, as long as his mind remains as closed on this subject as was that of his predecessor it augurs ill for any likelihood of reducing public expenditure or taxation?

Whatever may be thought or said about loans in preference to grants, there is little case for making loans to postgraduates. There is no evidence that the earning powers of postgraduates go up as a result of their postgraduate work.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that continued expansion of postgraduate research is essential for the nation in all kinds of fields, and will he make certain that those who are doing it are not penalised by not being paid, as the hon. Member opposite suggests?

Yes.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what information he has regarding the numbers of persons who applied for admission to Scottish universities in the current session, and the numbers who were successful in obtaining places.

The provisional number of new entrants to Scottish universities this October is 9,513. I have no information as to how many people applied for admission to Scottish universities this year.

Does not the absence of this information hide the fact that Scottish students find it extremely difficult to get into English universities, although many English students enter Scottish universities? As this stems from a different educational examination system, will the hon. Lady look at this to see whether we can have fair play?

The Scots are able to claim fair play, since the increase in university entrance to Scottish universities has been 8 per cent. in the last year, and for Great Britain as a whole, 6·5 per cent., so the Scots are doing pretty well.

Will my hon. Friend pay no regard to the newly acquired nationalism of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor), but urge Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen Universities to join in the U.C.C.A. scheme, which could benefit entrance to universities?

My hon. Friend has the point. Our difficulty in providing statistics is, of course, that a number of Scottish universities are not members of the U.C.C.A. and a number of Scottish candidates do not apply through it. The universities are autonomous—this, is for them and not for us—but I take notice of what my hon. Friend says, which would simplify the position considerably.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations have been made to his Department on the appointment of school governors and managers in London; and whether he will make a statement.

None, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the London Tories have been scouring the highways and byways of the Home Counties to achieve majorities on these governing bodies? Is he aware that many of these governors know little about London and even less about education and that many do not even know where the schools are of which they are supposed to be governors?

I agree with the views of the Plowden Council that the aim should be to appoint managers and governors who are genuinely concerned with education and prepared to devote time and trouble to it, but, as the law stands, it is a matter for the local authorities and not for me.

rose—

Mr. Gresham Cooke.

rose—

Mr. Hogg.

Is it not absolutely deplorable that ill-considered questions of that kind should not be repudiated more strongly from the Front Bench? Does the right hon. Gentleman not consider it part of his duty to defend the autonomy of local authorities?

The answer to the first part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question is, "No, Sir", and to the second part, "Yes, Sir".

On a point of order. Did you not call me earlier, Mr. Speaker?

The hon. Gentleman knows that I changed my mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals have been submitted to his Department by the Inner London Education Authority to amend the Authority's plans for secondary education.

None, Sir.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the present leadership of the Inner London Education Authority have now repudiated their election promises and have largely accepted comprehensive education in London?

Of course, I have not yet officially received any proposals. I know only what I have read in the Press, according to which there are many parts of the proposal, if it came up to me in this form, which I could accept for the reason which my hon. Friend has given, though there are some parts, if the Press reports are accurate, which I could not accept.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is wide feeling that the revised plan for London is a real attempt at doing what is wisest on educational grounds? Would he not agree that it would be a great pity to try to escalate the political temperature on this before he has even had the plan submitted to him?

I have not been escalating the political temperature. I simply say that I have not yet received any proposals and I must wait until I do.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science by what authority the Southern Regional Council for Further Education commissioned a questionnaire, a copy of which has been sent to him by the hon. Member for Basingstoke, by Messrs. Produce Studies Limited, marketing consultants, relating to the training of pig men and cow men; and what is the estimated cost of this inquiry.

It is one of the functions of the regional advisory councils to study and advise on the educational needs of industry. The questionnaire, which covers all occupations on farms, forms part of a survey of the education and training requirements of agriculture, undertaken with the support of the Agricultural, Horticultural and Forestry Industry Training Board which is making a grant of up to £5,000 to meet the cost.

Is the hon. Lady aware that most of the information demanded in this form is already contained in the agricultural census returns, and that being so, will she take what steps she can to prevent unnecessary form-filling being a burden on the farming community?

I recognise that the hon. Gentleman's constituents do not want to spend their time filling in forms, but the regional advisory council, which is an independent body, has representatives of industry, commerce and education on it, and both the National Farmers' Union and the National Union of Agricultural Workers have full knowledge of the fact that this questionnaire is being sent out.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why he has given a direction that boarders at grammar school should pay 2s. 9d. for their mid-day meal when day boys are only asked to pay 1s.

My right hon. Friend has given no such direction. Local education authorities have discretion to fix the scale of fees payable by boarders at maintained schools and these fees would normally cover the full cost of boarding.

Are we to understand, then, that the governors have been misinformed and that the local education authority can deal with this as it wishes?

Local authorities are completely autonomous in this matter, and if tie governors of this school have been informed otherwise, that is, of course, inaccurate.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will advise education authorities not to charge some secondary school pupils for journeys to and from schools of under 10 miles, while others are not charged for such journeys, and thereby eliminate discrimination.

No, Sir. A local education authority has a statutory duty to provide transport or to bear the cost of travel for a secondary pupil where the nearest suitable school is more than three miles from the pupil's home. Where the pupil attends some other school, arrangements for assistance with the cost of travel are at the discretion of the authority.

Does the right hon. Lady not realise that two sets of people depend on a particular date, before which pupils going to school have to pay and after which they do not? Will she do something about this?

I realise that, in the case which the hon. Gentleman has in mind, there is an anomaly, but, if the local education authority had applied the change retrospectively, there would have been other anomalies. But my right hon. Friend can take no action, since the Hampshire local authority is being more generous than it is legally required to be.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has for relieving over- crowding at the British Museum, for providing for improved display, and for further amenities for the staff and public.

As a substantial step towards the relief of overcrowding plans for the Ethnography Department to move to premises in Burlington Gardens are in an advanced stage of consideration; and new storage space for the Department is to be provided at Cricklewood.

The reconstruction of the Assyrian and Western Sculpture Galleries has been completed; and the projected reconstruction of the Bronze and Vase Rooms will also result in greatly improved display.

A new lecture theatre is completed. Plans are in hand for the provision of entirely new and greatly improved restaurant facilities for both staff and public, rest rooms and special provision for children.

May I thank my right hon. Friend and assure her that I am sure that, on all sides, there is great appreciation of these improvements for both staff and public in the British Museum? Could she possibly consider the possibility of enriching provincial museums and galleries by the loan of some of the beautiful treasures at present hidden away in the British Museum for want of space?

At the moment, exciting plans are on hand for improving the British Museum, and I am very grateful for the co-operation here of the Trustees, the Director and the Ministry of Public Building and Works. I am sure that, once we have a better display of existing treasures, it will be easier for us to see what treasures could be given or loaned to other museums.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will state the names and cost of all projects under the auspices of the Science Research Council at Woomera in Australia.

Launching of the Science Research Council's Skylark sounding rockets is carried out at Woomera as part of the jointly financed Anglo-Australian programme, at a cost to the United Kingdom in Australia of £175,000 in 1966–7.

The cost in this country of the rockets, including research and development, was £531,000 in 1966–67.

In the Government's judgment, what is the value of what goes on at Woomera to British industry and academic research?

It is the view of the Science Research Council's space and research sub-committee, which is responsible for experiments under this programme, that this work is extremely valuable. It should be added that a number of comments in international scientific papers have borne out the view that this is not a part of the Government's research programme to which my hon. Friend should pay too careful attention.

Will the Minister give an assurance that the information obtained from this desirable work will be fed to industry so that it may be used for useful purposes as quickly as possible?

Yes, Sir. At present most of the results of these experiments are carried in reports in various scientific and professional journals, but it may be the case that more could be done to draw the attention of industry to these experiments.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will instruct the Metropolitan Police to cease making random breathalyser tests under the purport of acting under Section 2(1, a) of the Road Safety Act, 1967, when no traffic offence has been committed and there is no reason to believe that any offence under the Road Safety Act has been committed.

Section 2(1, a) empowers a constable in uniform to require a breath test of a person driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle only if he has reason to suspect that person of having alcohol in his body. Such tests are not, therefore, made at random. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the power should be used only on reasonable suspicion of a blood alcohol concentration exceeding the prescribed limit, that would not be practicable, for the concentration cannot be estimated simply by inspection.

Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there are complaints—there is one in my constituency—about the police picking up a motorist coming out of the forecourt of a public house where he could not have shown his prowess or otherwise at driving? Is he aware that such acts are contrary to the intention of the Act and contrary to the assurances which were given about random testing when the Act was being passed?

It was certainly said when the Act was being passed—indeed, I said it—that it was not anticipated that the police would hang around public houses, although we made it clear that we would not try to prevent them from doing so in certain circumstances. In fact, it would be undesirable to prevent them from doing so in many circumstances because of the likely effects. At the recent Central Conference of Chief Constables, it was confirmed that, on the whole, random tests were not being taken by the police.

Would it not be sensible now to amend the law so that the power of the police to stop and breathalyse people is limited to cases where an offence has been committed or to where the police suspect that one has been committed?

That argument was exhaustively considered during the passage of the Measure. The really important principle established by it was that the police would no longer have to go only on outward behaviour in these matters—having to prove that eyes were glazed, gait faulty and speech slurred—and I thought that that principle was generally accepted.

Is my hon. and learned Friend satisfied that the instrument being used for breathalyser tests is scientifically accurate? In other words, is he satisfied that people so tested are not often wrongly accused?

We did tests on the approved instrument and these showed an error of approximately 10 per cent., which is much the same as the results found abroad. However, this is only a screening device and there is a second opportunity to take the test. Thus, if one takes 10 per cent. of 10 per cent. the likelihood of a wrongful accusation comes to about 1 per cent.

While the Metropolitan Police are undoubtedly trying hard to ensure that random tests are not undertaken by the police, does the hon. and learned Gentleman not appreciate that there will always be the odd abuse in this matter by a policeman here or there? Is he also aware of the strong feeling that exists that the law should be amended accordingly?

I do not think that that is correct. Certainly special representations have been made to the effect that the law should be amended, but the information we have had, from the polls and so on, is that the law in its present form has wide public support.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the working of the breathalyser test to the latest convenient date and indicate his plans for extending that test to pedestrians injured in road accidents.

It is too early to make a balanced assessment of the working of the new provisions. The Government have no proposals for legislation to extend them to pedestrians.

Has my hon. and learned Friend made scientific inquiries to satisfy himself that the instrument being used for breathalyser tests is sufficient to ensure accuracy and that people are not wrongly accused?

I have already completely answered that question. The risk in using the approved device, which was scientifically tested, in effect gives a possible margin for error of 1 per cent.; so there is no reason for disquiet.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will give an assurance that the Boundary Commission's recommendations will not be delayed by the findings of the Royal Commission on Local Government.

The Parliamentary Boundary Commissions for England and Wales have until the autumn of 1969 to submit reports on the general reviews on which they are at present engaged. I have no reason to think there will be any delay in the submission of these reports.

Will the Home Secretary lay the recommendations before Parliament, with the Draft Orders in Council, as soon as may be after he has received them?

As soon as may be. He has an obligation to submit the Report of the Commission to Parliament.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the operation of the Legal Aid Fund in relation to criminal appeals to the Court of Appeal.

Legal aid for this purpose is paid for out of local funds and the expenditure reimbursed by the Home Office. In the financial year 1966–67, when legal aid was granted in respect of over 80 per cent. of the appeals heard, the expenditure was £41,182.

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that there are instances to show that the system is not working very well, instances where defence certificates are not being determined at the end of trials on indictment and of defendants being faced with the difficult task of mounting appeals to the Court of Appeal unaided? Will he look into this matter?

I will certainly look into it. I can assure my hon. Friend that in this respect, under the Criminal Justice Act, there are now more effective arrangements being made for giving advice on appeal; and, in the meantime, there have been suggestions from the Bar Council and the Law Society that barristers and solicitors should give rather more advice than they may be doing at present.

asked the Prime Minister whether a date has yet been fixed for the start of negotiations between Her Majesty's Government and the European Economic Community.

No, Sir.

Is not that a rather disappointing reply in view of the fact that we were promised that this application would be pursued with pace and momentum? Does the Prime Minister feel no sense of shame at having entered into an alliance with the Leader of the Opposition which has resulted in making Britannia the beggar woman of Europe? Will he now withdraw the application.

There was no alliance. A decision was made by Her Majesty's Government and it was supported by the Opposition—which, of course, they had a full right to do. The House as a whole, by a very large majority, supported the application. I explained on Tuesday why we were not withdrawing it.