asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many of the reduction of 15,000 houses in England and Wales announced in Command Paper No. 3515 will be in Wales; and in which authorities they will be.

About 1,000. It is too early yet to say which authorities will be affected. My right hon. Friend will not, however, impose any restrictions in the areas of greatest need.

What are the areas of greatest need?

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend will look at this matter very closely and priority will be given to authorities where needs arise from industrial development and to authorities which have the greatest obsolescence problems.

Does not the Under-Secretary agree that a good deal of time has now elapsed since devaluation during which the Government should have been thinking about their policies in this respect? Would it not be more helpful if the Secretary of State could now tell North Wales, South Wales, East Wales and West Wales which areas will be affected?

This matter is receiving the closest attention. The number of houses built has been a record figure. The figure of 1,000 should be regarded as a diminution in the rate of increase rather than as a reduction.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has had from industrial organisations in Wales concerning the abnormal load duty proposed in Schedule 12 of the Transport Bill; and what reply he has sent.

My right hon. Friend has not received such representations.

That greatly surprises me, because I have received a great number. Will not the Transport Bill do a great deal of harm and raise industrial costs and therefore raise the cost of living of all the people in Wales? Is not the main point of having a Secretary of State for Wales in the Cabinet that legislation which will have obnoxious effects on Wales can be blocked?

Any representations which may have been made would have been made to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. She has already made it clear that in Committee on the Transport Bill she may be willing to consider possible ameliorations in her regulations for the development areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of the cut in road estimates for 1968-69 announced in Command Paper No. 3515 will apply to Wales; and on what categories of roads in Wales will these cuts fall.

About 5 per cent., falling partly on small improvement schemes on trunk roads but mainly on the maintenance and improvement of local authority roads. All the major improvements on trunk and principal roads will proceed as previously planned.

Can the Secretary of State give me an assurance that the St. Asaph bypass road will be proceeded with as at present laid down? Does he realise the danger of cutting down on the maintenance of roads, because, if they are not maintained in the ordinary way, in a few years' time the costs are far greater than they would otherwise have been?

I can give the right hon. Gentleman an assurance on the St. Asaph bypass. I think that expenditure on some minor roads can be postponed without undue hardship. I am anxious, in co-operation with highway authorities, to get the priorities right on minor roads.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he intends to take to ensure that the Brynderwen Bridge at Abermule in Montgomeryshire can carry heavily laden transport vehicles.

My right hon. Friend will consider objections to the proposal to impose a 20-ton weight restriction on the bridge and will write to the hon. and learned Member as soon as he is able to reach a decision.

Does the Under-Secretary appreciate that the normal daily loads along this road are often heavy loads? is a very severe handicap for an area removed from industrial centres to have an imposition of this kind on the main route out of such areas as Newtown?

I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that my right hon. Friend is well aware of the general problems and he will study the particular difficulties revealed by the objections before deciding what is the best course of action.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when a grant will be made available for the Abercrave-Onllwyn road; when work is to commence; and how long he estimates it will take.

My right hon. Friend has made a grant of £313,754 to the Breconshire County Council towards the estimated cost of the scheme. So far as the date of starting is concerned, this is a matter for the Breconshire County Council, but I understand that it plans to start work this month. The work will take about two years.

Has the Breconshire County Council been told that a grant is now forthcoming?

The County Council has been informed. This is the largest grant-aided scheme ever to be given to Brecon-shire and it should assist the economic wellbeing of the area.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will instruct the Welsh Economic Council not to approve proposals for pit closures, except for geological reasons, in areas where there is high unemployment or where high unemployment is likely as a result of such closures.

No, Sir. The arrangements are that the Chairman of the Industry and Employment Panel of the Welsh Economic Council is consulted about proposed closures and, having considered the implications of the closure against the background of the local economic situation and prospects, it is open to him to recommend whether a particular closure should be deferred. It is then a matter for the Government to decide what action should be taken.

If the Economic Council advises strongly against such a closure, who makes the final decision? Is it the Secretary of State for Wales or the Minister of Power?

The ultimate decision lies with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is fully consulted.

Is it normal procedure to provide alternative means of employment in the areas before the closure order of the pit is made?

The prospects for employment in the area are the main matters for consideration by the Chairman of the Industry and Employment Panel.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement on the progress of the Rhayader expansion plan; and what is the position of applications for permission to develop within the town.

At a meeting in the Welsh Office on 4th January last, at which all those concerned with the development of Rhayader were represented, the development plan was discussed. While there are certain matters—particularly concerning the line of the trunk road—which have to be further studied, the authorities concerned can now go ahead with some industrial and housing development, and I hope that they will do so.

There is great disappointment in Rhayader at the long delay. Is my right hon. Friend aware that it is nearly 12 months since the Secretary of State made a very good announcement about the expansion plan, but the assurance given by an officer of his Department that action would be taken within two months has not been fulfilled?

:As my hon. Friend knows, there have been technical difficulties which have to be fully investigated before a final conclusion can be reached. I know that he is concerned about applications for development and planning consent. All but one of these, I understand, have now been cleared with the county planning officer.

Would it not be a good thing if this matter were brought to a head at the earliest opportunity? Rhayader is at present suffering from a type of planning blight which is avoidable, and, if it were possible for the local authorities and the Welsh Office to get down to the question, would not a speedy answer be a happy outcome for a good number of people?

As I have said, the Welsh Office has been dealing with precisely the point raised by the hon. Gentleman. I understand that in all cases but one the matter has been cleared. That one is in the vicinity of the possible line of the road. The matter is in dispute, and in that instance permission cannot at the moment be given.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to ensure that, in the reorganised structure of local government in Wales, provision will be made for close co-ordination of physical land use planning control with economic planning.

Yes, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in the past, co-ordination has been entirely lacking, and will he say what steps he proposes to take to remedy the situation?

I would not agree with my hon. Friend that co-ordination has been entirely lacking, and the Government's proposals for reducing the number of local planning authorities in Wales and for reconstituting the Welsh Council will greatly strengthen co-ordination on all aspects of planning both within the areas of the local planning authorities and in Wales as a whole.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to ensure that the new Welsh Council is given specific powers to call for private and public investment in Wales, and that full publicity is given to its work except where secrecy is clearly desirable.

I can assure my hon. Friend that the Welsh Council's responsibilities will be wide enough to enable it to advise the Government on the need for private and public investment in Wales. Although there may be occasions when it will be asked to submit advice in confidence, the Council will at its discretion be free to prepare reports for publication.

The second part of that Answer will be welcomed in Wales, but does not my right hon. Friend agree that, in addition to having the right to give advice, the Council should be required to make specific recommendations for investment and development in Wales?

I shall welcome any proposals which the Council asks me to pursue, but I hope that my hon. Friend will not under-estimate the substantial investment in the private and public sectors which is in hand for Wales.

The Question asks that the Welsh Council shall have power to call for investment. Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that Owen Glyndwr said, "I can call spirits from the vasty deep", and he was then asked, "But when you call them, will they come?"? This is really the point here.

We on this side of the House prefer to draw our inspiration from Robert Owen of Newtown and not from Owen Glyndwr.

Will my right hon. Friend now authorise the publication of the reports of the existing panels of the Welsh Economic Council, as much advance information was not included in "Wales—the Way Ahead" which ought to see the light of day?

As my hon. Friend knows, up to now the reports of the Welsh Economic Council have been on the basis of confidentiality, as has been the practice of the Economic Councils in England and Scotland. But, as I have said, from March onwards the Council will, at its discretion, be able to publish reports.

The right hon. Gentleman said that co-ordination was not lacking. Did he hear his right hon. Friend say in reply to Question No. 2 that representations on Welsh matters had gone mainly to the Minister of Transport and had not been drawn to his attention? Is not that a lack of coordination, if what the right hon. Lady said was true?

On these matters there is complete consultation between the Welsh Economic Council and the National Coal Board and between the Welsh Economic Council and the Welsh Office, because it is the Council's duty to report to me in the first place. There is complete co-operation between my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power and myself.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take further action to enfranchise those leaseholders whose tenancies terminated after the 8th December, 1964, and before the passing of the Leasehold Reform Act, 1967.

No, Sir. This would require fresh legislation, and in this connection I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given to him by my hon. Friend, the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government on 25th January,1968 —[Vol. 757; c.178]

That was a very bureaucratic reply. Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many elderly people who are now becoming disfranchised and who are apt not to take notice of official notices in the Press? Will he consult further with the Minister of Housing and Local Government on what action should be taken in this respect?

I remind my hon. Friend and other hon. Members that very wide publicity coverage was given to this matter in the weeks before 27th January. As I have said, any change now would require fresh legislation. In the circumstances, in view of the time which was allowed and the publicity which was given, I would not regard that as reasonable at this stage.

In view of the widespread concern felt by elderly people on this issue in South Wales, will my right hon. Friend give a categorical assurance that those people who have not exercised their rights under the Leasehold Reform Act are still fully protected in their right to occupy and own their homes under the 1954 Act?

Yes, provided that the requirements of the law have been fulfilled. But my hon. Friend must give me firmer evidence on that question. He has asked for something which is very difficult, as hon. Members on both sides know, but I shall be glad to look at the extent of evidence which exists on the point.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether the current review of Government expenditure includes reconsideration of the substitution of loans for grants for students.

All aspects of student support are kept under review, but I have no proposals at present to introduce a system of loans.

The Secretary of State will have noted the very responsible attitude towards the whole question of grants taken in the last few days by the leaders of the students' unions. Will he give an assurance that, in his negotiations, which, I understand, are to take place tomorrow, he will respond to this mood and listen carefully and constructively to any alternative suggestions for economies which the leaders of the unions put before him?

I shall, as always, listen very sympathetically to any responsible, or, indeed, irresponsible, representations—they will be responsible in this case—which are made to me. But the specific Question was about loans, and I have no proposals at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what advice he has given local education authorities concerning student representation on the governing bodies of polytechnics.

My right hon. Friend has not advised that there should be student representation on the governing bodies of polytechnics. We shall not raise any objection if an authority wishes to provide for it.

I thank the hon. Lady for that reply, but does she recall that in the case of certain polytechnics satisfactory solutions have been reached regarding student representation? Does she not think it appropriate to make those examples known to other places where rather more old-fashioned views seem to prevail?

We shall consider that. But I should point out that in our notes of guidance we strongly indicated that provision should be made for student representation in matters of concern to students. We did not wish to lay down the precise form which it should take.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what estimate he has made of the effects of a deferment of the raising of the school leaving age beyond 1970 –71 on current expenditure.

There will be savings of nearly £20 million on current expenditure in England and Wales both in 1971–72 and in 1972–73 as a result of the deferment of the raising of the school leaving age by two years.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Prime Minister said in his statement that there would be a saving of £33 million in the year 1968–69 in respect of school building arising from this decision? Could he now, in answer to me or, perhaps, in the OFFICIAL REPORT or by letter to me, explain how that figure was arrived at and why he did not now mention it?

The figures referred to by my right hon. Friend related to capital savings which fall in those two years. Current savings come in later years simply as a result of there being fewer pupils in the secondary schools and the consequent effect on the cost of school meals, equipment and so on. This is simply a question of the distinction between capital saving and current saving.

Has my right hon. Friend noted that those countries in which the bulk of the population can neither read nor write do not suffer from anything like the same degree of political and economic complexities that we are suffering from in this country?

This is certainly a very complex country, and our education system also is very complex.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on his present policy in relation to the projected raising of the school leaving age to 16 years.

The Government's decision to postpone the raising of the school leaving age for two years was announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 16th January.—[Vol. 756, col. 1577.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the pledge to maintain the teacher training programme is an earnest of the fact that the school leaving age will be raised in 1973? However, will he at a very early stage name a single leaving date as a further earnest that we are moving towards raising the school leaving age in 1973?

I am glad that my hon. Friend has given me the opportunity to say that it has been somewhat overlooked that we have not done any-fling to decrease the supply of teachers, which is an earnest, a proof, of our intention to raise the school leaving age. I am giving careful and urgent consideration to his second question.

Will the hon. Gentleman realise that his official word on this, as on everything else, is wholly prejudiced by what has been passing during the last month? Is he aware that areas such as that which I represent are seriously prejudiced, and delightfully prejudiced, by the large number of children voluntarily staying on at school, but for whom now no additional provision of buildings can be made?

On the contrary; if there are children who need school roofs, we have to provide them. That is done under the general school building programme.

Will my right hon. Friend stress the need for local authorities to continue the training of experienced teachers ready for the raising of the school leaving age? Sonic local authorities have made cuts.

Yes, I have told local education authorities that in my view they should give priority to the encouragement of teachers and not economise in that respect.

Is it not particularly important at this moment that the impetus behind the training of teachers and the planning of the syllabuses in preparation for the raising of the school leaving age should not be lost in any way? Will the right hon. Gentleman make it at abundantly plain that both sides of the House are now absolutely pledged to the introduction of the raising of the school leaving age at the new date?

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. The Schools Council, which is particularly concerned with curricula changes, is pressing ahead with undiminished vigour and I hope that the supply of teachers will be maintained with the same momentum as in the past.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what specific measures he has taken, apart from the special building allocation of £16 million for priority areas, to implement those recommendations of the Plowden Report which fall within the responsibility of the Government.

Some £10 million of the normal major building programme for 1968–70 has been allocated to primary schools in educational priority areas and part of the recently announced addition of £8 million a year to the programmes for 1968–69 and 1969–70 is for those areas. In current quota calculations a number of teachers have been reserved for service in these areas. I have made an announcement on corporal punishment in special schools. Preparation of a pamphlet on parent-teacher relations is going forward.

Is the Minister aware that there is a very strong feeling that the widely welcomed recommendations of the Plowden Report are not being accepted with anything like the speed that is wanted, particularly in view of the very stringent financial circumstances under which local education authorities will have to operate over the next three years? What action will he now take on the subject?

Quite a lot of the proposals of the Report are being and have been carried out, but some of them, as was clear from the Report, will be very expensive. These, like any proposals of that kind, must wait a certain while. It is clear that the restrictions on central and local Government expenditure will hold up some of these and other desirable reforms.

Will my right hon. Friend consider issuing a circular to advise those local authorities with priority areas inside them to protect those areas when they consider how to apply the cuts in their current expenditure which they will have to make over the next two years?

We are now considering the various proposals made to us by local education authorities in response to an earlier circular about educational priority areas. In so far as we have funds available, these will be protected and specially favourable discriminatory treatment will be given to the areas that we can choose.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman three specific questions arising from his rather disappointing Answer? First, what encouragement is he giving to more nursery classes in existing school buildings? Second, will the Minister consider a point I have often made about changing the weighting of the rate support grant to help areas of high population density? Third, will he take an interest in a number of projects that the universities are putting forward to form a close liaison with local authorities on projects for educational priority areas?

We are very keen on the last point, though it depends in part on what universities want to do. It is very important that nursery classes should go forward, and, in so far as we can finance them, that will happen. I do not think that the proposals of the Plowden Report for complete nursery provision can be put into effect quickly. Leave alone the very great cost, nursery classes would simply take teachers from primary schools. One must balance one thing with another. The rate support grant is a very complex matter which we are looking into. It does not concern only my Department.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what encouragement he is giving to the provision of courses in management studies at undergraduate level in institutions for which he is responsible.

I am anxious to see such courses provided at the appropriate level. Many undergraduate courses in the fields of engineering and other subjects contain an element of management studies. But specialised courses are normally post-graduate or are taken by practising managers already in industry.

What attitude has been expressed to the Minister by industry about the provision of courses such as these at the undergraduate level?

The hon. Gentleman will know that there are industrial representatives on the industrial training boards, which are concerned with management courses—of which there is a considerable increase—and there are the regional advisory committees and governing bodies of technical colleges. Within all these spheres, courses in business studies contain an element of management study, but up to now the main approach in undergraduate studies has been on a broad level of which management studies form a part, but not the whole of the course.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether schools of computer programming are subject to registration or approval by his department.

No, Sir.

Surely the hon. Lady is aware that fee-paying computer schools are mushrooming all over the country? On the strength of glib promises of a quick road to top salaries students are being induced to part with large sums of money for courses which often prove to be quite beyond their capabilities and at the end provide certificates which are useless to them. Is not there a strong case for some sort of system of registration, in the interests both of students and reputable computer programming schools?

Yes, Sir. This is a very fair point. But the hon. Gentleman will recognise that it is difficult for us to protect every single buyer. We have a system of recognition as efficient, and any student has a right to inquire whether an institution is so recognised. In order to be be so recognised, institutions must fulfil fairly stringent conditions about the nature of their courses. We are shortly to produce a bulletin indicating all the courses for computer programmers, systems analysts and the like in colleges of further education. There is a very fast-expanding provision for students in the State system, but there are difficulties about trying to prevent private enterprise institutions from starting on these grounds alone.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what, in relation to middle schools, are the relevant educational, financial and other standards where these under current legislation and practice differ as between primary and secondary school.

Apart from the provisions in the Education Act relating to managing and governing bodies, there ere certain provisions in my Department's regulations which differentiate between primary and secondary schools. The most important in the context of the establishment of middle schools are the building regulations and I am considering amending these to provide separate standards for middle schools.

Is not it time that the Minister's Department, and, indeed, all of us, got away from the conception of a rigid distinction between primary and secondary education and devised a more flexible system of relating the standards and grants to the different child age years? Surely, that would cater for the needs of schools of all age ranges?

I quite agree that we clearly need a more flexible arrangement because of the arising of middle schools. We are already applying new building standards. My difficulty is that the Act recognises only primary and secondary schools. I must decide whether a middle school is primary or secondary. Until we can alter the Act we shall introduce flexibility as far as we can by regulations and other means short of legislation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the number and proportion of local education authorities which have now established teacher centres.

One hundred and thirteen out of 162.

What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that this very important development, its maintenance and—I hope—its further extension, will not be jeopardised by the present restrictions on the education expenditure of local authorities?

These courses are arranged by local authorities, and I hope that they will continue. The hon. Gentleman will have seen the very valuable working paper produced by the Schools Council, which will, of course, continue in this very good work.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what will be the effect of the restrictions on capital spending on the university building programme.

Capital expenditure will be reduced by £0.75 million in 1968 –69 and £2.5 million in 1969 –70. it is for the University Grants Committee to decide how best to secure these savings.

Is it not short-sighted madness to cut the university building programme? How can the Minister justify the Government's throwing away millions of pounds on pointless nationalisation schemes when depriving the nation of qualified manpower in this way?

Part of that supplementary question was wholly irrelevant to the other part. When we were having to scrutinise central Government expenditure so carefully and make certain savings it would have been wrong to exempt universities altogether. I do not think that the universities will find this very troublesome. I am sure that it will not lead to a reduction in the number of students, and that with slightly better and more intensive use of their capital equipment the universities will be able to accommodate under the new arrangements the flow of students going to university.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to prevent local education authorities making school building, staff and pupils available for use in party political broadcasts

No, Sir. This is a matter for the local education authority and the school managers and governors to decide. They will, no doubt, take into account the undesirability of school children being involved in questions of political controversy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the recent Labour Party broadcast was set in a Hull school, which was named, that the headmaster, a named member of the staff and pupils took part in the broadcast, the whole of which was set in the school? Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that to be desirable?

I was aware of those facts. This is a matter for the local education authority and it would be very wrong if I attempted to decide these things. I was not consulted ahead of this programme and there was no reason why I should have been, for it does not lie within my discretion. It is a matter for the local education authority, the headmaster and others. I have been informed that the children involved were questioned only after their parents had given consent.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, while we would all support head teachers and other teachers and staff having the fullest opportunity to take part in ordinary political activities, it is a mistake to identify any one school with any particular political party in a way which surely seems to have happened in this case?

If it is a mistake, the right hon. Gentleman should direct his rebuke to the people concerned, who were the local education authority, the governors and the head teacher.

Does my right hon. Friend think that there would have been any complaint from the Opposition if this had been a Conservative headmaster?

Yes.

I hope that hon. Members opposite would have been consistent enough to attack that, too, and I would have given the same answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what advice he has given to local education authorities in cases where they have failed to reach agreement concerning comprehensive reorganisation with voluntary aided secondary schools after discussions with their governors according to the terms of Circular 10/65.

None, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the headmaster of Wolverhampton Grammar School, the Chairman of the Aided Schools Association, has recently boasted that the status of those schools enables them to resist reorganisation? Is he aware that a city like Birmingham has so many aided schools that, unless they co-operate, it is quite impossible to go comprehensive at all?

It is very important that aided schools should co-operate in the introduction of comprehensive reorganisation. Although this has caused some trouble in particular localities, the denominations themselves have been extremely helpful and I should like to say how much I appreciate the way in which they have done their utmost to co-operate. In some areas there are special difficulties of geography or size of school, but on the whole this is going ahead not too badly.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why people should be expected to co-operate in committing suicide?

Clearly, the denominations, who know a lot about suicide, do not share the hon. and learned Gentleman's view.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in some areas the whole comprehensive system could be seriously jeopardised by the existence in the middle of one non-denominational — stress non-denominational—voluntary school?

I agree. This can happen and is happening in certain cases, but if one puts it into perspective, I think that it will be seen that we shall make the best progress by local negotiation and with the aid in particular of the denominations.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals Her Majesty's Government now have to make in regard to the financing of the proposed new National Theatre.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the present position regarding the National Theatre; what progress has been made; and when building will begin.

The position of the Government remains unchanged, we are prepared to share the cost of the National Theatre equally with the Greater London Council, subject to a maximum contribution, related to costs at tender stage, of,£3¾ million. The Government propose to introduce a Bill in due course to remove the limit of £l million placed on their contribution by the National Theatre Act, 1949.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that her statement, coupled with the equally important and earlier G.L.C. statement. will be widely welcomed? Can she confirm that there will be very little expenditure in the next two years? Does she agree that the National Theatre will be potentially a great earner of foreign currency?

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those remarks. I hope that now there will be a combined operation to lose no further time. I hope that legislation will be introduced before the end of the year and although no money will be required for about 18 months, I hope that everyone concerned will be able to get ahead without further delay.

While it is very welcome to hear that the Government intend to introduce legislation to deal with the matter, it would give even greater pleasure if one could see some sign of one brick being placed on another. Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the actual building will quickly follow the legislation?

I can assure my hon. Friend that I shall do everything in my power to ensure that and that I am most anxious after these long delays that we should get ahead. I hope that we are now reaching agreement with the G.L.C., which will mean that at last we shall begin to see the bricks.

While this decision will be acceptable to many people who think of the possibility of Britain becoming the world powerhouse for entertainment and drama generally, will the right hon. Lady also bear in mind that it is essential that some help should be given to the commercial theatre through the remission of the Selective Employment Tax, or by initial allowances, or in some other way?

The hon. Gentleman may know that the Arts Council has set up a distinguished committee which is investigating relations between the subsidised theatre and the commercial theatre.

When my right hon. Friend is thinking about the National Theatre for England, will she remember that there is a claim for something similar for Scotland?

I would not dream of intervening directly in Scottish affairs, but my hon. Friend must be aware that Scotland received a 40 per cent. increase in its arts grant last year and that this matter is entirely within Scottish discretion.

I welcome the Government's decision. However, is the right hon. Lady aware that the Government's contribution is considerably less than that of the Greater London Council, because the G.L.C. is also providing the site on the South Bank?

I reached a very tough package deal with the predecessors of the present G.L.C. when all these matters were settled. There was, quite properly, a little delay, because the new council wanted to look at all the figures carefully, but I hope that we shall be able to go ahead now on the basis of the agreement reached with the present council's predecessor.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is to be the revised level of Arts expenditure in each of the next five years, following the economy measures announced on 16th January; and whether he will make a statement.

No decisions have been taken on expenditure on the Arts in later years, but for 1968 –69 expenditure on the Arts will total about £15·3 million, an increase of just over £ 1 million on 1967 –68. The Arts Council grant in 1968 –69 will be £550,000 more than in the current year.

Does the right hon. Lady recognise that the upward trend has been halted, no doubt due to the present economic measures? Will she undertake to keep the House fully informed on the nature and scope of this expenditure?

I am not sure whether that was a mark of approbation or disapproval. I can assure the House, and I was very anxious to make this statement, that the existing commitments of the Arts Council will be maintained and the 8 per cent. increase even permits a modest and reasonable increase in activity.

Would my right hon. Friend accept that on both sides of the House this expenditure is regarded as very wise expenditure on behalf of the country? Would she also note that certain schemes which may be put in hand will of themselves require a constant increase in expenditure if they are to justify their initial hope?

I accept that and that is why, in maintaining commitments on existing projects, there has been a modest but, I think, a most helpful, increase on last year's grant.

Can the right hon. Lady confirm that the overwhelmingly large proportion of the sum that she has announced will go to projects already in existence?

That is the understanding. The allocation is not for me, it is a matter for the Arts Council; but I want to assure those engaged in very wonderful work all over the country that their interests are being looked after.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what savings in administrative costs related to the Arts will result from the economy measures of 16th January.

It is for the Arts Council and other arts bodies receiving grants-in-aid to decide how much to spend on administration out of the total grants agreed by Parliament. The grants-in-aid to the various bodies for 1968 –69, which will take into account estimated administrative needs as well as other essential requirements, will be published in the Estimates.

Will the right hon. Lady nevertheless undertake to keep the House fully informed about the administrative expenditure, because if money is short we want to be sure that it is going to projects and is not wasted on administration?

I will most certainly do that, but the House may be assured that the Arts Council is in very good hands and its business interests will be carefully looked after.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) whether candidates for the Watford grammar schools are admitted on the basis of their having attained a sufficient educational standard; and whether the schools are selective in their intake;

The answer to both parts of the first Question is "Yes, at present" and to the second Question "as soon as additional building has been authorised and completed".

Why was the Hertfordshire plan approved without reservations to make sure that those particular schools would cease to be selective, and why was no assurance sought from the Hertfordshire authority on a particular date when they would have become comprehensive, when the Government gave their approval to the plan?

The Hertfordshire authority scheme of secondary reorganisation was accepted in September of last year without reservation as far as the Watford area was concerned. Instructions will be given at the appropriate time about the amendment to the Articles of Government in relation to the introduction of comprehensive reorganisation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the total number of overseas students; from which countries they mainly come; how much of the £1,000 a year that they each cost is paid as a subsidy from public funds; and whether, in view of the country's economic difficulties, he will cut this expenditure.

A total of 29,659 in full-time and sandwich courses in the Universities and Colleges of Further Education in Great Britain. In 1966–67, the latest year for which figures are available, the largest numbers came from Commonwealth countries, U.S.A., Iraq, Iran and Norway.

Why did the Minister choose to reimpose prescription charges rather than to cut overseas foreign students grants?

Last year, as the hon. Gentleman knows, overseas students fees were raised. In the Government's view to do this again would be unfair. Secondly, this is a form of overseas aid which does not involve any expenditure on the balance of payments.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will ensure that instruction en the functioning of automatic level crossings with half-barriers shall be a part of road safety tuition in all schools.

This is a matter for the local education authorities and the schools, but those concerned should be aware of the need to ensure, with the co-operation of British Rail, that, where automatic level crossings are introduced, school children are adequately instructed in their safe use.

Would my hon. Friend agree that parents in many parts of the country feel, justifiably, very anxious about these crossings? Would she further agree that there are sufficient crossings in the country for instructions and tuition to be given throughout the country and not just in those areas where crossings are being set up?

I fully understand the anxiety of my hon. Friend about these crossings, and it is essential that children should receive some instruction, particularly if there may be a tendency to play "last across" in the same way as children do on the roads. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport informs me that officials of British Railways visit local schools and talk to the children, show them films of the crossings in action, and distribute posters and pamphlets.

asked the Prime Minister what proposals he has for discussions with the Presidents of Zambia and Tanzania on alternative policies to end the rebellion in Rhodesia.

Her Majesty's Government are in close touch with the Government of Zambia, as with other Commonwealth Governments, on all aspects of the Rhodesian problem. Consultation with Tanzania is less easy since she broke off diplomatic relations with us in December, 1965, but as the House knows, my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary met the Presidents of Zambia and Tanzania during his African tour late last year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that most of us on this side of the Chamber support the insistence on Nib-mar as a prerequisite of any further moves in Rhodesia? Would he also accept that the same majority of us on this side of the House, and I suspect a number of hon. Members opposite, would equally support him if he were to demonstrate what we all know exists, that is to say, his concern for the future of Zambia and Tanzania in this context?

I have had ample opportunity, both at Question Time and in debates, for being very well informed of the views of hon. Members in all parts of the House on this question.

Does the Prime Minister not recognise that any negotiated settlement is totally impossible on the basis of Nibmar?

The right hon. Gentleman has raised that many times in the past and I would refer him to the answer I gave him on the last occasion.

Would the Prime Minister also consult with Dr. Banda of Malawi? Could he not perhaps get a more realistic view of the present situation in this way?

I am in close touch with the President of Malawi, as with all other Commonwealth Heads of Government. I had the opportunity of discussing this matter with the President of Malawi when he was last in this country.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the latest position on Rhodesia.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement about the Rhodesian situation.

I would refer my hon. Friends to the Answers given to Questions on this subject last Tuesday by my right hon. Friend the Commonwealth Secretary and to my own Answers to Questions on 18th, 25th, 30th January. —[Vol. 757, c. 1067; Vol. 756, c. 1948; Vol. 757, c. 578; Vol. 757, c. 1087.]

Is the Prime Minister aware that some Conservative M.P.s have been saying in Rhodesia that the régime should stick it out because a Conservative Government would drop sanctions immediately? Would the Prime Minister consider asking the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home), when he makes his visit to Rhodesia, to dissociate his party from that form of mischief-making?

I am aware that on past occasions, particularly just before the last General Election, this kind of wishful thinking existed on the part of Rhodesian authorities, as a result of things said to them. I have certainly no need to make any representations to the right hon. Gentleman, because his own record in this matter, when he was Prime Minister, is very clear and I know that he will wish to stand by the warning that he then gave to the then Government.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much. Am I right in thinking that he has put his right hon. Friend in Coventry for a month?

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, following his distinguished example, I do not interfere in these matters, having complete confidence—as I think he had—in my Chief Whip. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that unlike the situation in Rhodesia, the activities of all Members of Parliament in this country are abundantly reported, and not subject to censorship, as in the country he is shortly to visit.

When will the Prime Minister realistically face the fact that, contrary to his own expectations, sanctions have failed and will continue to fail? What does he propose to do next?

If the hon. Gentleman thinks that sanctions have failed, he had better get in touch with the Rhodesian Tobacco Growers' Association to see whether it agrees.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed the conciliatory replies by Lord Shepherd, the representative of the Government in another place, during the debate on Lord Alport's suggestion about Rhodesia? Lord Alport was the Government representative who went to Rhodesia. When will we have an opportunity to discuss these cognate matters?

I am well aware of what was said in another place on these matters. What I think is regrettable is that the important statement made by Lord Alport, on his own responsibility, was fully censored in Rhodesia so that the advice which he then gave was not available to the general public of Rhodesia. My right hon. Friend will be aware that, after we invited Lord Alport last year to put certain propositions and to sound out feeling there, it became clear from my right hon. Friend's visit that, far from any move being made towards acceptance of the "Tiger" proposals, the Rhodesian authorities had moved a great deal further from them.

Is the Prime Minister aware that, although sanctions have had an effect on the economy of Rhodesia, there is no indication that they can ever have a decisive effect on the régime in Rhodesia or on Rhodesia itself? As the Prime Minister himself has forsworn the use of force, this matter can be dealt with only through negotiation. Therefore, should not he and the Commonwealth Secretary continue their efforts to resolve the conflict which exists, some aspects of which were shown to the Commonwealth Secretary during his last visit?

Of course, the right hon. Gentleman must take responsibility for the views which he expressed about sanctions and their possible effect. But my right hon. Friend was in Rhodesia following Lord Alport's mission and, as the House well knows, there was a very serious reversal, even from the post "Tiger" situation, by the Rhodesian authorities in that they laid down new conditions which went a long way beyond "Tiger" and were totally opposed to the principles which the Conservative Party and we ourselves have always put forward.

If, as I believe, this matter must be settled by negotiation, surely the job of the Commonwealth Secretary is to see how the points raised by Mr. Smith can be negotiated in the context of the five principles, and that as the British Government—[Interruption] There are many observers who believe that this is not impossible. As Britain is the major country involved, surely the onus must rest on us to continue efforts through negotiation.

The purpose of the "Tiger" discussion was to see how far we could reach a settlement based on the six principles, and that was also the purpose of my right hon. Friend's visit. What became clear from the new terms insisted on by the Rhodesian authorities was that they totally rejected the principles; they have now totally rejected them. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that all problems of this kind ultimately need to be settled by negotiation, but there is a difference between negotiation between people who want a settlement within the terms and the suggestion sometimes put to us from the benches opposite that this Government should crawl to an illegal régime.

Would not the Prime Minister accept that, since all three political parties in this House voted for the application of sanctions, all three parties were entirely sincere in that vote and would not wish in any way to reconsider their position? Secondly, would he accept that the view of the Leader of the Opposition that we are dealing with aspects of a police State, to quote his own words, makes it very difficult unless we are prepared to take the first initiative?

The phrase "police State" has been used by the leaders of all three parties. Concerning those who voted for sanctions, I have never doubted the integrity of those on this side of the House or of the right hon. Gentleman's party, or of the minority of those in the Conservative Party who on a very famous occasion also voted for sanctions.

On a point of order. It was said recently that time and again on Tuesdays and Thursdays we had the same Questions on the Order Paper, the same supplementary questions and the same replies. We have now wasted 10 minutes on the subject of Rhodesia. Cannot we have another subject?

That point was raised last week. The hon. Gentleman must read the discussion in HANSARD.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that if Chief Superintendent Butler had shown a spirit of defeatism in condoning illegality similar to that evinced by hon. Members opposite —[Interruption] If one of our chief inspectors, the one I have named, had shown a spirit of condoning illegality, another man called Wilson would still be living in luxury in Canada on stolen money instead of having been returned behind bars in Parkhurst Prison?

Perhaps one of the many differences between the Rhodesian case and the one which my hon. Friend has in mind is that Chief Inspector Butler had the full co-operation of the local police authorities in dealing with an illegal situation.

asked the Prime Minister when he next proposes to lead a discussion with the National Economic Development Council on devaluation.

asked the Prime Minister when he proposes to discuss with the National Economic Development Council the advantages to be obtained by export industries through the price advantage gained through devaluation.

I expect that the National Economic Development Council next Wednesday will continue the discussion which we had at the January meeting on these and other vitally important issues.

is the Prime Minister aware, as I am sure he is, that many British exporters have had to raise their prices very substantially since devaluation due to the increase in Corporation Tax, Selective Employment Tax, freight rates, Bank Rate—[Interruption]—this is all perfectly true. As a result, much of the value which could be obtained from devaluation is being lost. Would the right hon. Gentleman discuss with the N.E.D.C. this whole area of costs before it is too late?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the announced increase in Corporation Tax is a tax on profits; it is not an increase in costs. He will be further aware that very many of our exporters have reduced their prices by varying amounts. The hon. Gentleman will have seen the statement made by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade about price policies to be followed. I have no reason to think that a large number of exporters are not taking full advantage of the new opportunities arising from devaluation.

Would the Prime Minister give a figure for the amount by which the advantages of devaluation have been reduced by the Government's measures in withdrawing the export rebate, and so on, and by increased costs of fuel and raw materials?

I should want notice of that question. It was accepted by Ministers at the time that there was some derogation from the full 14 per cent. and 16 per cent. respectively as a result of the abolition of the export rebate, the latest position on which the right hon. Gentleman knows. There have been many different estimates for different industries, and, since some industries will now be able to work at full capacity rather than lower capacity, this will help to lower their costs. In general, exporters who really want to get the business have shown that they can take full advantage of devaluation to adjust their prices to whatever figure seems to them to be likely to increase their export revenue and that of the nation.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of his decision to be concerned directly in the work of the Department of Economic Affairs, he will make a statement on the steps he has taken to raise the standard of living of the British people between the end of August, 1967, to date.

The hon. Member will have seen the relevant indices affecting production, productivity earnings and prices during this period, though he will be aware of the steps we have had to take to rectify the fundamental weaknesses in our economy with which he and his former Government colleagues left us.

Does the Prime Minister recall the remarks of the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer only six months ago that devaluation must mean a lowering of standards for the British people? If it does not mean that, it does not mean anything at all. What steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to lower the standard of living of the British people in accordance with the letter to the International Monetary Fund?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the statement made by my right hon. Friend was fully debated for two days in the debate which followed devaluation. I have nothing to add to what was said from this bench on that occasion. Since the hon. Gentleman is now showing concern in the standard of living of the British people, he will no doubt have studied the indices to which I have referred, including the very big increase in productivity. He will recall that the Government have raised the standard of living of a very considerable number of those living on National Insurance benefits during the period he has in mind.

Would my right hon. Friend try to agree performance targets with industry so that not only industry but the British people might be made fully aware of the advantages and opportunities which can accrue from devaluation for increasing their standard of living?

My hon. Friend will be aware, not only of the work of the N.E.D.C., but of the work of the individual economic development councils in respect of the possibilities now open to industries and individual firms as a result of devaluation.

What projection have the Government given the N.E.D.C. of the rise in the cost of living during 1968?

Speaking from memory, as yet I do not think that any particular estimate has been put before it beyond what has been said to the House by Ministers, but I will be glad to investigate whether in the rather formidable list of documents given to it this figure has been given and give an answer in the House. As I said in answer to the previous Question about the N.E.D.C., we shall be continuing the discussion at the next meeting next Wednesday.

Has the Prime Minister any comment to make on the National Opinion Poll published this morning which shows that two-thirds of the electorate are dissatisfied with the way in which he is running the country?

Order. Supplementary questions must arise from the Question on the Order Paper.

May I answer the hon. Gentleman, Mr. Speaker, since he has raised this matter? I am sure that he would not wish, by referring to this, further to embarrass his Leader in view of what is said about him in that poll.

May I ask my right hon. Friend a serious question? In the light of the exhortation in his statement of 16th January to people on the shop floor, what direct encouragement can he give to shop stewards in the trade union movement to ask managements what initiatives they have taken with the opportunities that devaluation has presented?

This is a serious Question. My hon. Friend will have seen the suggestion that I made in the course of a speech in the country during the Recess proposing that all significantly sized firms who export or who could export should set up export committees representative of managements and trade unions to discuss what either side could do to get more exports, the workers pressing, perhaps, for greater activity on the sales side and for changes in layout, and the management side asking for full cooperation in seeing that orders are met, in getting down costs and abolishing practices. I am glad to see that this proposal has received quite a lot of support in industrial circles, although some of the best firms have always had committees of this kind.