asked the Minister of Transport what action she is taking to reduce the time now spent on road repair work and road building in order to reduce inconvenience to the public generally.

The time allowed for the construction of road works takes account of all factors, including general inconvenience. Reducing the completion time often means additional cost, but, subject to that, we aim to complete all road works as quickly as possible.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, if British Railways took so long to repair their track and rebuild their bridges as many road engineers, there would be a revolution? Does he not think it time that his Department looked at the length of time taken on road works leading out of London, for example, and the discomfort caused to pedestrians and road users and the burden on the economy caused by the length of time taken?

I recognise that the construction of road works is a burden on the economy, but it is a temporary burden. The object of new roads is that great savings to the economy ultimately ensue. Every effort is made, but there are great difficulties, particularly in urban areas, and inconvenience for a short time is unavoidable.

asked the Minister of Transport what progress has been made in planning the northern and western bypasses for Cambridge.

Cambridgeshire and Isle of Ely County Council, as our agent authority, has made preliminary investigations into possible routes for these new roads. They are being considered for inclusion in the trunk road preparation pool.

In connection with the northern bypass, would the hon. Gentleman please keep in mind the growth of industrial traffic between the Midlands and the East Coast ports and the need for urgent improvement of better east-west communications not only for Cambridge but for other parts of East Anglia?

The northern bypass investigations are going on to determine where the line may be acceptable. This has not been completely pursued in detail, but investigations are going on at the present time.

Could I, as a Member for East Suffolk, stress to the Minister as my hon. Friend has done again the importance of this road to the export trade from the Midlands through to the ports of Harwich and Felixstowe?

We are aware of this, and this is part of the reason why it is being considered as a candidate for the preparation pool.

asked the Minister of Transport what consultations have taken place between her Department and the local authorities concerned regarding the construction of a pedestrian footbridge over the A21 in the vicinity of Turpington Lane, Bromley Common.

None, Sir.

Will the hon. Gentleman please have consultations with the G.L.C. on this matter? Does he realise that those who live in the vicinity of this very busy route now regard the provision of a footbridge as the only way of stopping further fatal accidents there, and that it would be appreciated if he would use his persuasive powers with the G.L.C. to ensure a speedy and favourable decision on the matter?

The hon. Member will recognise that investigations on this are for the Bromley Council and then for the G.L.C., and they are, I understand, in consultation now about the wider scheme to alter the layout at this junction, taking into account the needs of pedestrians. I can assure the hon. Member that as soon as these proposals are submitted to us, they will be dealt with immediately.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will now specify the alterations to the road programme necessitated by the reductions in public expenditure in 1968–69 and 1969–70.

asked the Minister of Transport how the cuts in expenditure on the road programme have affected road communications to the ports.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison) on 17th January. As that reply indicated the review of starting dates will be aimed at minimising delays to the more important road schemes, which include those affecting communications to the ports.—[Vol. 756, c. 558.]

:Can the hon. Gentleman say what now are the prospects for the M11? Is there likely to be any change?

No, Sir. As my right hon. Friend said, we will so operate the savings that there will be no effect on the major motorway programme and, as far as possible, none on the major trunk route programme. Certainly there will be no effect on an important road scheme for access to the docks.

Is the Minister of State aware that certain work appears to have stopped on the road to Harwich, which is to be a very important container port? Will he look into it and tell us why?

I am not in possession of the details, but, if the hon. Gentleman will let me have them, I will look into the matter. We have to go through statutory processes, which sometimes cause delay to schemes. If there is any unavoidable delay, I will look into it and let the hon. Gentleman know.

In view of the importance of exports, will my hon. Friend look again at the proposals for the Liverpool-M6 to see whether it is possible to bring that project forward?

My hon. Friend will know that we are in consultation with local authorities about important factors concerning access to ports and docks in that part of the country and related to schemes of major construction further ahead. We will do our best to improve matters in that area.

Is the Minister aware that a recent reply to a Written Question shows that the 81 schemes deferred in 1965 for six months in fact were deferred on average for more than 12 months? Will this happen again?

No, Sir. We have debated this matter several times since that occurred. There were many factors affecting the so-called slippage of that period, and, since then, my right hon. Friend has taken action to establish the road construction units in order to overcome these difficulties. Now that we are developing the road construction units, certainly we will not allow that slippage to occur.

Has the omission of the M4 in the programme for motorway development announced recently been due to reductions in public expenditure or to some other cause?

It is not due to reductions in expenditure, but to the statutory processes. As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, there are certain difficulties due to the possibility of public inquiries, which are unavoidable under the present law. We are endeavouring to get forward with the M4 as rapidly as possible.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she consulted the Shipton Parish Council before she authorised the increase of the speed limit to 40 miles per hour through the village of Shipton on the trunk road A19; and whether in the interests of road safety she will now reinstate the speed limit at 30 miles per hour.

No, Sir. It is not customary to consult all local authorities in such cases. The county council was consulted and the proposal was advertised locally on 6th and 7th July last year. No objections were received. The former 30 m.p.h. limit was not a realistic or effective restriction and we would not be justified in reinstating it.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the weekly newspaper selected is one which is not normally read in the village and that this stretch of road contains two very dangerous bends, three road junctions, ten farm entrances, two petrol filling stations, one engineering works, one public house and one school?

Every effort was made to advertise in the proper local papers. In this case, the proposal was advertised locally in the Yorkshire Gazette and Herald, which circulates in the area. The police and the county council, the agent authority in the area, both fully agreed with the proposal that the speed limit should be raised to 40 m.p.h.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will make a statement on the progress of the Elloughton bypass on the A63.

An Order establishing the line of the bypass was made in August last year, and a Side Roads Order was published in October. Objections have been received to the latter and are at present under consideration.

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether there will be a public inquiry? Can he give the House any idea of when the work is likely to start, and also an estimate of its date of completion?

The question of a public inquiry will depend on whether the objections can be mitigated without the necessity for it. It is hoped that the work will be completed by about the summer of 1971.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is one example of the dozen, or perhaps two dozen, bottlenecks and the snags on this awful stretch of road between Hull and the A1? Can he say when he will improve this? In particular, can he tell us something about the beginning of the work on the Thorne bypass?

I would like notice of the particular case mentioned by my hon. Friend. Work on the connection between the Al and Humberside is going ahead as quickly as possible, but my hon. Friend must realise that a fair amount of time is required between the original decision to build a road, and its being completed. The statutory processes alone take about two and a half years.

asked the Minister of Transport how many fatal and serious accidents have occurred on the A45 between Thurlaston roundabout and the Birmingham boundary since the introduction of a 60 miles per hour speed limit; and how many occurred during the same period last year.

There have been no fatal and 17 serious accidents between 18th October, 1967, and 31st January, 1968, on the part of the road subject to the limit. There were seven fatal and 19 serious accidents in the same period a year ago.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the decision to impose a 60 m.p.h. speed limit on this lethal stretch of road, the first in Britain, has been fully justified despite the lunatic rantings of the motoring organisations?

It is too early to say. The limit has not been in force for long enough, and, particularly in view of the other measures which have been in operation during the period, it is rather premature to make a decision. The limit will be reviewed when it has been in force for about a year.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the total number of traffic signs now in use.

The regulations prescribe six basic types of sign, including road markings. Within these types there are 270 different signs, but many are simple variants, for instance of direction signs.

Would my hon. Friend agree that before any new signs are introduced we should have time to get accustomed to those that we have now?

The evidence is that poeple are becoming much more accustomed to them. The basic understanding should be that circular signs mean instruction, triangular signs mean a warning, and rectangular signs mean information. The signs were designed after consultation, following the Warboys Committee's Report, to bring them into line with the signs used in the rest of Europe.

asked the Minister of Transport what research is being carried out by her research organisations in the design of safer railway coaches.

Research in this field is the responsibility of British Rail. Their current research covers strengths of coach structures and materials, improved braking systems, improved riding at high speeds, and possible fire hazards.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the safety of railway coaches appears to compare unfavourably with the safety of the best modern road vehicles? Does he not think that the design of railway coaches should be reconsidered so that there can be a reduction in the size of their scantlings and that far more materials are produced to reduce the energy and impact?

There is a programme for the replacement of railway stock under way, but British Rail has a first-class research organisation at Derby. I am not aware that there is any foundation for my hon. Friend's criticisms.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will give a general direction to British Railways that they should undertake a review of their procedures for the carriage of parcels, with a view to speeding up the service.

No, Sir. The Railways Board is fully alive to the need to do everything possible to improve its parcels and sundries services and to coordinate them with those of B.R.S. (Parcels) Ltd.

The hon. Gentleman's answer of "No" will be widely regarded with dismay because the gross inefficiency of this section of British Rail's services frequently hampers the fulfilment of orders within a given period, which is gravely hampering all industries, particularly those concerned with exports.

I hope that I can count on the support of the hon. Lady when the Transport Bill comes back to the Floor of the House. British Railways are aware of the difficulties of the present situation and have set up their Freight Sundries Division. There is a joint parcels organisation set up with the T.H.C., and the National Freight Corporation will set up a properly integrated service for this type of freight.

Could my hon." Friend indicate how far the Transport Bill will rationalise the procedure for the carrying of parcels where there are two overlapping public bodies?

I do not want to go into details on this, but the National Freight Corporation will provide for an integrated sundries service. Passenger parcels will remain with the British Railways Board.

asked the Minister of Transport when she expects to receive recommendations from the Transport Users' Consultative Committee following its consideration of complaints from Southern Region commuters on the continuing delays and disorganisation within the Region.

asked the Minister of Transport what recommendations have been made to her by the London Area Committee as a result of the complaints they have received from passengers on the Southern Region of British Railways about the unpunctuality of trains since July, 1967.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will refer to the appropriate transport users committee the failure of the Southern Region of British Railways to provide a punctual, regular and reliable service to the public.

I understand that the London Area Transport Users' Consultative Committee has put recommendations to the Central Transport Consultative Committee, which will consider them early next month. It will be for the Central Committee to decide whether to make recommendations to me.

In the meantime, is the right hon. Lady aware that, in spite of some marginal improvement, punctual trains on the Southern Region are still the exception rather than the rule? Does she agree with the Central Consultative Committee that the only long-term solution of this problem is to increase track capacity, and, if so, will she undertake now to give favourable consideration to the estimates for this work which will be submitted to her later this year?

I am aware that the Central Committee, having looked at the position, has said that the Southern Region was right to reorganise the timetables, and improvements have taken place, of which I gave particulars in a recent Press statement. Southern Region is continuing to make what adjustments it can to increase punctuality. With regard to the wider issue, this is, I understand, one of the points which is being considered by the London Area Transport Users' Committee, and I am awaiting the Central Committee's recommendations.

Can the right hon. Lady comment on the point made in the Central Committee's annual report that there really is very little margin and that the unpunctuality, and the inconvenience to our constituents, are likely to continue unless and until the Government approve a fairly major engineering and expansion programme on the Southern Region?

Of course, I shall be glad to study with care any suggestions for improvements and expansion of capacity, but, as the hon. Gentleman has referred to the Central Committee's report, I should remind him that it said that, generally speaking, the Committee felt that the management of Southern Region had been right in dealing with the problem as they had, even recognising the points which the hon. Gentleman has made. The Committee also paid tribute to the great care Southern Region has taken to listen to complaints and to meet hon. Members, and I think we should pay tribute to Mr. McKenna for that.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree, in view of the fact that the Transport Users' Consultative Committee has recognised that, that it is right that every effort should be made to encourage Southern Region to improve services rather than condemn the reorganisation?

Yes, I do, and I am glad that my hon. Friend has raised this matter, because the Central Committee did say that the handling of the complaints and the difficulties which were encountered following the changes has been commendable. I think we should recognise that a rather bold innovation was made here. It has had teething troubles. I hope we are getting through them. But Southern Region was right to take the initiative.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will make a study of the increased extent to which private road transport is being used by commuters as a result of the train service provided by the Southern Region of British Railways since July, 1967.

asked the Minister of Transport what was the percentage by which the number of persons commuting by car into central London increased in the six months following the introduction of the new Southern Region timetable in July, 1967.

No special study would be justified. Figures are not yet available of changes in car commuting since July, but rail commuting to Southern Region terminals in central London rose slightly between November, 1966, and November, 1967.

While I acknowledge that the terrible unpunctuality of Southern Region trains has improved a little lately, would the right hon. Lady acknowledge that my constituents have had much to complain about in the last six months and that the service is still irregular and trains frightfully overcrowded, with the result that some people I know are travelling by road?

Not only would I ackknowledge what the hon. Gentleman's constituents have been through, but I think that the Southern Region of British Rail would be the first to acknowledge it frankly. That is why they are making desperate efforts to improve the services. It is, of course, a matter for them, for management. The purpose of the new timetables was to give the hon. Gentle- man's commuter constituents more space and that we shall still try to do.

While we are all pleased with the improvement in punctuality on Southern Region, would my right hon. Friend realise that car commuting into central London will still grow if the region's policy of withdrawing train services from the inner London suburbs to make room for longer-range commuter traffic continues? Would she look sympathetically at any proposal for increasing the fundamental strength of the system?

I have said earlier that such proposals may be coming to me and I will certainly consider them sympathetically within the limits of the total investment available.

asked the Minister of Transport what study she has made of the evidence supplied to her by the hon. Member for South Bedfordshire on the contribution to safety on the railways made by using computers for starting, stopping, accelerating and decelerating trains; and if she will initiate experiments with computer-driven trains, possibly on the London Underground.

An initiative by my right hon. Friend is not necessary. London Transport have been operating automatically-controlled trains between Hainault and Woodford for four years and the Victoria line will be fully automatic. British Rail are experimenting with systems suitable to their more complex needs.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the announcement this week of extensions in British developments in this field will be very welcome, but will he, in considering extending and expanding this type of automatic service as quickly as possible, also consider that forms of control as used in Hamburg may be more economical to operate?

I am sure that my hon. Friend will accept that the London Transport Board is ahead of the world in this field. The Victoria Line will be the first fully automatic passenger service in the world. The technology of London Transport is more advanced than that of the Hamburg system. Indeed, it had reached a parallel stage of research and development five years ago.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the need, in the case of further developments of this kind, to consult the trade unions, so that they will be adequately informed in advance?

I am sure that this is a very important point which the two Boards will bear in mind.

asked the Minister of Transport what financial ceiling she places on maintaining open socially useful railway lines.

We are not yet in a position to confirm or vary the estimate of £55 million per annum initially which is quoted in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Transport Bill.

Does that mean—I am not quite sure from the hon. Gentleman's reply—that £55 million is the ceiling and, no matter how socially useful the line is, if the £55 million has been used up the line cannot be reprieved? Will the hon. Gentleman clear that up?

No. This is an estimate. We cannot at this stage make a more realistic estimate, but Parliament will be invited to approve an estimate for 1969–70.

Will my hon. Friend ask the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow, Hillhead (Mr. Galbraith) if he still supports the full rigour and impact of the Beeching Report? Is my right hon. Friend aware of the massive support that she has throughout the country for the keeping open of socially necessary lines?

It is not for me to answer for the hon. Member for Hillhead. We never know where he stands; whether he wants to butcher the railway lines of Scotland or not. What is important is that in the present Transport Bill my right hon. Friend has set out means of paying for socially necessary railway lines.

asked the Minister of Transport whether her decision that the minimum track mileage of British Railways will be 11,000 miles is affected by the recent Government economy measures.

These measures do not affect the route mileage of the British Railways Network for Development published in March, 1967.

Can the hon. Gentleman say when he expects this figure of 11,000 route miles to be reviewed?

This is the figure which we have established as necessary, having regard to the social needs of the country.

asked the Minister of Transport when the major electrification scheme on British Railways, which was postponed as a result of the post-devaluation cuts, will now be carried out.

I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance) on 20th December last.—[Vol. 756, c. 408.]

Would it not help the railways more to allow them to go ahead with this important scheme, rather than with the expensive nonsense of the Transport Bill?

We have made clear to the Railways Board where it stands with regard to this scheme, and I think that in the interests of the nation as a whole, and British Railways in particular, it will welcome the Transport Bill.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the electrification of this line will do a tremendous amount to carry forward to success the Government's regional policies?

Yes, obviously this scheme is very important, and, in due time, if the Board makes a fair proposal, we shall have to examine it against all the other considerations in the development of this part of the world.

asked the Minister of Transport how many containers were carried by British Railways freightliners on the most recent week for which figures are available; and what was the comparable figure in the same week of the previous year.

asked the Minister of Transport to what extent freightliner traffic is increasing.

For the weeks ended 11th February, 1968 and 12th February, 1967 the figures were 4,431 and 1,313, respectively. The rate of carryings has, therefore, more than trebeled over the past year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his Answer will give great satisfaction—[Interruption.]—I hope, to everybody in the House? Is he aware that anyone interested in British Railways is interested in the success of the freightliner services and that there should be no quarrel between the two sides on this?

I am sure that it is of great encouragement to my right hon. Friend to see the success of the freightliner system, despite the attacks and denigration of hon. Members opposite, and it must encourage railwaymen generally to see the fulfilment of my right hon. Friend's assurances that they would all benefit from the system.

In view of the success of the freightliner trains with British Railways, why does the Minister not keep them there instead of giving them to the National Freight Corporation?

We are anxious to encourage the maximum development of this important system and think that the best way is by the joint arrangement of a share owned by British Railways and a share by the N.F.C.

asked the Minister of Transport what recommendations she has received from the Transport Users' Consultative Committee in regard to the Whitland-Tenby-Pembroke line; and what action she proposes to take.

My right hon. Friend has received a comprehensive report from the Transport Users Consultative Committee. She is now studying this and will also be consulting the Secretary of State for Wales and other colleagues concerned before taking a decision.

Is the Joint Parliamentary Secretary aware that this line is vitally economically necessary to a substantial part of South-West Wales and that its closure would further depress an area which suffers more than most—[Interruption.]

Order. It is difficult for the Chair to hear the hon. Gentleman.

I was asking the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that the closure of this line would further depress an area which suffers more than most from depopulation, from unemployment, and from under-development, evils which the Welsh people associate now with the Socialist Government?

I am personally aware of the importance of this line. This is why it is important to study its future very carefully. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that, if it is decided to keep the line open, the Transport Bill provides the means for paying for these lines.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she is aware of the dislocation on roads caused by the snowfall between 8th to 13th January, 1968; and in view of the possibility of a further snowfall this winter, what consultations are being held to remedy this.

Heavy snow inevitably causes some dislocation; the most that can be done is to clear the roads as soon as practicable. Highway authorities are generally fully alive to their responsibilities; they were reminded in a circular issued on 5th January of the importance of keeping their snow clearing organisation at maximum efficiency and no consultations are at present considered necessary.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that early salting could help to solve the problem? Is he satisfied that there is sufficient co-ordination between the weather forecasting authorities and the county councils? Would he look into the matter to see whether the situation can be improved?

A circular urged local authorities to do salting as soon as weather forecasts came through. If the salt is put down before the snow falls, the snow can be cleared much more quickly. We are always looking at the question of the meteorological authorities giving as much advance warning as possible. This is being kept up to date.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will make a statement on the outcome of her discussions with the Motor Insurers Bureau regarding compensation for victims of hi t-and-run road accidents.

We have now substantially agreed with the Bureau a procedure which will allow for appeals on their decisions in cases involving unidentified drivers. Under this procedure the Bureau will examine such cases as at present but if the victim of an accident is dissatisfied with their decision he will have a right of appeal to an arbitrator from a panel of Queens' counsel. The Bureau will normally pay the arbitrator's fees and will be bound by his decision. We are grateful to the Bureau for their help in developing this procedure which is now being embodied in a formal agreement which we hope to make available to the House, and bring into effect, very shortly.

Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that his announcement today will be greatly welcomed by all those who have had the misfortune to have to deal with these kinds of claim in the past? Can he say when this procedure will be announced and put into effect? It will be of great interest also to know what the procedure is for appeals.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his kind remarks. There are some small points still to be settled. We have reached substantial agreement, and we hope to bring the agreement be-for the House very shortly.

Having raised this matter on a number of occasions with the Tory Government when they were in power, and having received no satisfaction whatever, may I express my sincere thanks to my hon. Friend for the statement which he has made, and ask whether he is satisfied that the arrangements made will deal with the particularly hard cases which arise?

I am sure that the House will also want to pay tribute to my hon. and learned Friend, who has pressed this consistently over a very long period of time, and from time to time has been asking me to report progress to him. We are also grateful to the Motor Insurers' Bureau. I think the arrangements it has set out and which will be set out in some detail will meet the very real needs of the situation.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will take steps to implement the recommendations made to her by the Medical Commission on Accident Prevention in relation to application forms for driving licences.

We hope to take advantage of the establishment of a central system of vehicle registration and licensing to revise the application form for a driving licence. The recommendations made by the Medical Commission on Accident Prevention will be taken into account during this revision.

When this is done, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that it is asking a lot of any driver to decide for himself when he ought not to be driving, and will he institute periodic health checks of licence holders?

This is an interesting suggestion, and it is one which has been raised before. But, obviously, before it could be adopted and before such a departure could be made, a great deal of medical and other advice would need to be taken.

asked the Minister of Transport whether she has considered the information acquired by the Royal Automobile Club in its seven-point Tyre Safety Week, details of which have been sent to her; and whether she will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. This underlines the need for full observance of the new tyre Regulations which will be effective from 1st April. With help from RoSPA and the tyre industry I am arranging further publicity to emphasise their importance for safety.

While recognising that the question has been out-distanced by events, is my right hon. Friend aware that these Regulations will be warmly welcomed as a contribution to road safety? Can she tell us in a little more detail what steps she is taking to publicise them?

I agree that this is a very important element in road safety. The Lancashire police have indicated that 30 per cent. of accidents on the M6 in 1967 were due to tyre failure. Therefore, I have thought it right to devote some of the extra funds that we are making available for publicity on road safety matters to a campaign which will start in the Press next month and be followed by television advertising starting in mid-March.

asked the Minister of Transport what negotiations are in progress between her Department, the British Waterways Board and local authorities on the future development of the waterways system.

The part that individual local authorities can play must necessarily be related to particular waterways within the Board's system. It is for the Board, as a matter of management, to reach agreement directly with interested local authorities on objectives in their areas. The Board is engaged in numerous discussions of this nature at the present time.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Can he assure the House that adequate consultation is taking place between local authorities, regional sports councils and the Waterways Board so as to make full use of the tremendous amenities that the Minister has now placed at our disposal?

From the information in my possession, there is a very long list of local authorities which are at present negotiating or discussing various matters concerning their own areas with the British Waterways Board. This should be encouraged, and I am satisfied with the present situation.

asked the Minister of Transport what proposals she has under consideration for the development of container traffic on the waterways.

The development of container traffic on the nationalised inland waterways is essentially for the Waterways Board to consider, as a matter of commercial judgment, together with the carriers and the customers. I know that the Board is very much alive to the possibilities of container traffic and are actively studying ways in which it can participate further in this modern carrying technique.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the tremendous importance of the Humber as a carrying area for the Trent, the Calder, South Yorkshire and so on, and can he give any sort of indication of discussions taking place with the Yorkshire-Humberside area for the development of waterways container traffic?

I understand from the Board that a firm of consultants is studying new craft design to meet the requirements of the main river navigations in the region and, in particular, is investigating the possibility of sea-going container carrying craft which would also be capable of navigating the large waterways in the North-East.

If the Waterways Board intends to buy such containers, will the Minister urge on it the importance of buying British containers rather than foreign ones, such as those bought by other Boards?

Is my hon. Friend aware that this question has profound implications for the Thames lighterage industry, and would he consider consulting it?

I am sure that this would be drawn to the attention of the British Waterways Board.

asked the Minister of. Transport what consultations she had with local authorities between the publication of the White Paper on Public Transport Authorities and the printing of the Transport Bill.

We had very full consultations with local authorities before the White Paper was published.

Is the Minister aware that there was an interval of three days between publication of the White Paper and the appearance of the Bill, and the letters emanating from her office had led local authorities concerned to understand that there was to be adequate consultation between the publication of the White Paper and the appearance of the Bill? As a result, have they not been seriously misled?

No. I cannot accept that, because we promised full consultation with the local authorities, and it is obviously very important that those should have taken place. It was because those consultations were going on right through November and because we wished to incorporate their results in the White Paper that publication of the White Paper came so near to the appearance of the Bill.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, when the Merseyside Steering Committee met to discuss the setting up of a passenger transport authority for the region, the votes on that occasion were almost equal, but that 15 members of a Conservative-controlled council abstained? Is that not an indication that even Conservative-controlled councils in the region are secretly in favour of the proposals?

I think that my hon. Friend's facts are broadly correct, although I could not testify to every detail. It is true that many Conservative councils view with great enthusiasm the prospect of a big extension in the rôle of local government in this sphere of activity and that, as soon as the party political battle dust has settled, they will join with enthusism in making a success of the P.T.As., just as the G.L.C. will in London.

Returning to the main question, is the Minister aware that a letter went from her Ministry to a local authority stating categorically that there would be time for consultations between the publication of the White Paper and the Bill and that this commitment was not kept?

Consultations with the local authorities are still going on. They have gone on since Second Reading. A new round of consultations is about to start. It was important to pay attention to local authority views and get them reflected in the White Paper. It is obvious to anyone who compares the proposals in the White Paper with those in my original memorandum, on which I first went out for consultation, that we have listened to the local authorities and have embodied their views in the White Paper and the Bill.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Transport what is the manpower requirement of the National Freight Corporation; and how many will be transferred from British Railways and how many recruited from other sources.

The manpower of the National Freight Corporation on vesting day, on the best estimate that can be made this far in advance, will be about 66,500, of which about 27,500 will be transferred from British Railways, and the other 39,000 from the Transport Holding Company.

What is the Minister doing to make sure, through inter-trade union discussion, that there is no dislocation of the National Freight Corporation as a result of dissension between the unions?

I have had many discussions with the trade unions on the principles behind my policy. Detailed discussions on the guarantees to their staff and the implications for their staff are commencing.

Can my right hon. Friend assure us that the pension rights and service rights of the transferred staff, together with the travelling facilities enjoyed by the employees of British Railways, will be maintained?

Certainly. We have no intention that the staff shall suffer. But the details of how fast and how far we can move towards common conditions of service, which is an issue involved in this question that my hon. Friend has raised, must be for consultation with the unions.

asked the Minister of Transport if, in view of the need for public economy, she will now cancel the Channel Tunnel project.

No, Sir.

Does not the Minister realise that this whole concept is out of date? Would it not be much more effective, from the point of view of exports and efficiency, to concentrate on aircraft and hovercraft? When will the Government stop wasting public money and time on these futile projects?

Traffic with the Continent, on the best estimates, is expected to grow considerably over the next 30 years—this is generally accepted—and the increased capacity to cater for it must be provided somehow. Economic studies which have taken place show that the tunnel is economically preferable to the alternatives.

If the hon. Gentleman is not going to cancel the project, can he give definite news fairly quickly to those who tremble on the brink of it?

The final financial proposals have recently been received from the three banking consortia. They are now being studied by my right hon. Friend and her counterpart in France. Obviously the decision must be made jointly with her French colleagues, and they must also agree on timing.

Can we be told about the progress which has been made in the formulation of financial proposals for the construction of the tunnel?

As I have just told the House, the financial proposals have been received and they are now being studied. My right hon. Friend hopes that a group to form the construction company will be selected in the near future.

Without agreeing with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Clark Hutchison), may I ask whether it would be advisable to wait until at least the end of this year when we shall have more experience of a much bigger hovercraft, the S.R.N.4, on cross-Channel routes?

The House will be aware that the hovercraft is an important experiment; but, after all, it is an experiment at this stage. There are substantial indications that there will be a considerable growth of traffic in the years ahead. and this must be catered for on a substantial scale.

asked the Minister of Transport on what scientific calculations she bases her proposed wear and tear tax.

Upon the results of research undertaken by my Department and published in the Report on Road Track Costs on 15th February.

Surely the right hon. Lady cannot be serious in suggesting that this road track cost goes anywhere near justifying her wear and tear tax. Is it not more than ever clear, after reading this, that the tax is an arbitrary Government decision taken to help the railways and that it has no scientific or economic justification behind it?

No. I cannot accept that for a moment. I am not surprised at the attitude of the Opposition in view of the way their recent scientifically assessed document, giving estimates of the costs of my policy, has been shot down in flames.

Does not the study show that highway costings, excluding environmental costings, are six times greater for the heavy motor vehicle compared with the private car? In view of those now established facts, why is it that the right hon. Lady is recovering only four-sevenths of the additional costs?

Because we have tempered the winds of economic reality to the shorn lamb of the British road haulage industry.

asked the Minister of Transport whether, in view of her proposal to impose a tax on heavy vehicles, she will take steps to reduce taxation on vehicles which cause minimal wear and tear on the roads.

No, Sir. All vehicles cause wear and tear to the roads, and the new charge is intended to offset some of the additional costs imposed by heavy goods vehicles.

Since the Ministry's Report on track costs confirms that, by any calculation, road vehicles, including heavy lorries as a group, pay much more in taxation than their track costs, why will the Minister not now make corresponding adjustments instead of making road transport as a whole more costly?

Against a background of a continuing and expanding programme of heavy expenditure on road construction and improvement, no reduction in taxation of other vehicles could be justified. The hon. Member will be aware that there is less imposition as regards licensing on smaller vehicles and that this will be very much welcomed by small vehicle owners.

Since my hon. Friend has accepted the principle of wear and tear, would he not consult the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to reducing the motor vehicle licence to a minimum fee and transfer that taxation to petrol?

I am sure that my hon. Friend will wish to make that point to the Chancellor who has responsibility for these matters.

asked the Minister of Transport if she will make a statement on the results during the first four months of the use by the police of breathalysers.

Deaths and serious injuries in October were 14 per cent. lower than in October, 1966. Deaths in November fell by 20 per cent. and serious injuries by 15 per cent.

Can the Minister say whether those very satisfactory figures have been achieved largely by fewer drivers on the roads in the evenings after closing time or whether they show that drivers are drinking less?

No. When we published the October and November figures we gave our traffic estimates. Traffic increased by 4 per cent. in October and by 2 per cent. in November. In December there was a slight fall of 1 per cent. in traffic. We recognise the point about night traffic, because it is at night that the reductions have been most dramatic. In November we carried out a special analysis on night traffic. We estimate that over the month as a whole car traffic between 10 p.m. and midnight averaged 1 per cent. higher and between midnight and 4 a.m. it was 1 per cent. lower than in November, 1966. The corresponding reductions in casualties for these hours were 49 per cent. and 39 per cent. respectively.

Can my right hon. Friend give an estimate of the lives which could be saved in a full year if this improvement were to continue?

When the law was first introduced, I estimated that it might save 200 lives a year. If the November figures are maintained, the saving will be 1,600 lives a year.

asked the Minister of Transport what will be the effect of her proposals for the reform of the carriers' licensing system on those parts of the country where British Railways do not provide a freightliner service.

Quality licensing will have the same effect everywhere—to improve and maintain lorry safety standards, whilst freeing operators from outdated and unnecessary quantity restrictions. The new quantity licences will be issued virtually automatically where there is no rail service which can compete with road in overall terms of speed, reliability and cost. Everyone can thus expect a more efficient, flexible and economic service from road transport in future.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that Answer will be very helpful and will destroy much of the propaganda of the other side of the House about carrier licensing? Is he further aware that it will reassure those who have been frightened because they were getting propaganda instead of facts?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. It is vitally important to give the country facts and not fiction about the present Transport Bill.

Will the hon. Gentleman therefore give one fact and agree that even in those areas where no railways are operating, it will still be possible for someone not to obtain a quantity licence due to an objection from the National Freight Authority?

No.

asked the Minister of Transport what representations she has received regarding the employment of coloured bus drivers; and what reply she has sent.

In the past 12 months we have received one representation relating to the company sector, which was referred to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour; and one relating to London Transport, who have assured us that they do not practise discrimination on grounds of colour.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that today it was announced that there are more men unemployed in Birmingham than at any time for 20 years?—[An HON. MEMBER: "Pity the hon. Gentleman is not one of them."]—It is because I am employed here that I annoy hon. Members opposite so much with the facts which I produce. Would the hon. Gentleman do his best to encourage our own men to take on this important work?

Citizens of this country are, of course, being encouraged, where necessary, to take jobs in the bus industry and perform an important public service, and I would hope that the hon. Gentleman will join us in deploring racial discrimination in any industry or service.

Would my hon. Friend recognise that bus drivers of different colours make a better contribution to public transport than buses of different colours?

asked the Minister of Transport whether she will make a further statement on the nationalisation of the ports.

There is no further statement to make yet.

Is the Minister aware that taking over one undertaking alone would cost more than £100 million? How can he justify this on national grounds alone at the present time? Is he aware that we are beginning to think that the Minister is not considering the national interest, but is playing party politics?

No, Sir, I am not aware of any of those things, but, as I have said before, I am aware that, in spite of widespread opposition to the public owner- ship of the ports, most of the authorities of all kinds whom we have consulted wish to see the establishment of a national authority for the planning of the ports. We are not able to make a statement yet, because we are still consulting those authorities about the shape of the scheme.

Can my hon. Friend say how soon we can expect this statement to be made? Many people in the ports, and hon. Members on this side of the House, are looking forward eagerly to the publication of the date of the nationalisation of the ports. Is my hon. Friend aware that the decision taken by the House last week was particularly welcomed in the Humber area?

I am aware that many people wish to see the shape of the scheme as soon as possible, because they strongly support it. A statement will be made within the next two or three months. I am not able to say exactly when, but we do not want to prolong the uncertainty, and we will specify the nature of the proposals as soon as possible.

Will the hon. Gentleman now confirm that the major user organisations, the Confederation of British Industry, and the Chamber of Shipping, have both categorically told the Government that they are strongly opposed to the nationalisation of the ports?

The organisations named by the hon. Gentleman have made plain to us, and in public, that they are opposed in principle to public ownership anywhere. What I have said previously is that, in spite of that, those organisations and others agree with us that a central planning authority for the ports is urgently necessary, and therefore that changes are necessary in the structure of the industry. They agree with that, and we are proceeding on the basis of those views to make a scheme which is as widely acceptable as possible.

Is it not clear to my hon. Friend that all the workers' organisations representing the workers in the ports are fully behind public ownership? Is it not also clear to my hon. Friend that for a long time we have had backward ports, which need modernising, and that this car only be done under public ownership?

Yes, Sir. The trade unions have expressed to us the view that they are fully in favour of proceeding with public ownership.

When can the Port of Bristol, which is municipally owned, expect to receive the Government's blessing for its much needed improvement schemes?

My right hon. Friend recently told the planning council that its schemes and proposals are still under consideration, and indeed under discussion with the Port of Bristol Authority. She will make a statement as soon as possible.

Will my hon Friend agree to set up a Committee of Inquiry into the Thames lighterage industry to see how this fits in with nationalisation proposals for the Port of London?

As my hon. Friend knows, on his initiative we recently debated this matter in the House. My right hon. Friend is in consultation with my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade about the possibility of an inquiry.

asked the Minister of Transport what information she possesses about the improvement of productivity and the expansion of trade in those ports where container berths and other modern techniques of handling cargoes have been, or are being, introduced.

The actual increases vary considerably depending on the type and characteristics of the berth. Examples of specific developments of which we are aware show that productivity rates of the order of 10 times those found in conventional berths are being achieved. New or modernised facilities have also attracted substantial increases in trade.

Would my hon. Friend assure us that this expansion will continue?

Yes, it certainly will, since we are now investing more in the ports than ever before.