asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects the building of the National Theatre to begin.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has now reached agreement on the financial contribution he and the Greater London Council are prepared to make towards the building of the National Theatre; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science on what date he estimates building operations will begin on the site of the National Theatre.

The Greater London Council has decided to make available up to £3¾ million, but no more, towards the total final cost of building the theatre. The Government have informed the South Bank Theatre Board that they will provide a sum equal to that provided by the G.L.C. The South Bank Theatre Board has also available a sum of £100,000 in Trust Funds which it proposes to use to help in building the theatre. The board has instructed the architect to prepare working drawings within the total expenditure limit of £7.6 million thus available. This process should be completed within the year after which tenders will be asked for.

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will recognise the welcome which we give to this sign of progress. Will the sum which is now to be available involve any material alteration in the designs presented by Mr. Denys Lasdun? Would my right hon. Friend accept that her continuing campaign to get this matter moving is widely regarded as a most valuable contribution to our living in London and in Britain?

My information is that certain changes are to be made by the architect to keep within the expenditure limit, but they do not involve a fundamental alternation in his scheme.

Is not the offer of the G.L.C. worse than that which was made by the L.C.C., which offered to pay half of whatever the final cost might be, an offer which is now limited? What will happen if, in view of rising costs for building the theatre, the final expenditure is more than is anticipated?

On the last part of that question, I think that, with £7½ million and an additional £100,000, if we cannot build a splendid theatre, we all ought to jump in the Thames. I am quite satisfied that we can get ahead. It is true that the G.L.C.'s predecessors had an understanding with me—it was not a written contract—that they would be prepared to pay £3¾ million at point of tender, and the Government the same. But we need not quibble about past arguments; the important thing now is that we have a splendid board which wants to go ahead with the building of the theatre. Most of us would like to see the beginning by next year.

While welcoming the right hon. Lady's first reply, may I ask whether it would be possible to have visible signs of this theatre rather earlier than that reply suggested?

I am conditioned in this by the builders and the architects. I am just thankful that we have overcome a rather defeatist attitude on the part of some people and I do not see why we should not now go ahead without any further loss of time.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that we recognise that this project will not require much expenditure at the moment, that it is widely welcomed in the House and that, rather than quibble about who should pay how much, we are all anxious that they should get on with some work?

indicated assent.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now state what has been the result of his consultations to discontinue caning for handicapped pupils.

These consultations are not yet completed.

When is a full statement on this matter likely? Is my right hon. Friend aware that, despite the rather silly resolution passed by the Tory majority on the Liverpool Education Committee, I have in no way changed my view—and I hope that he has not changed his—that the caning of handicapped children is wrong and barbaric.

I made my views on this clear in the House a little while ago. I hope that these consultations, which are now proceeding, and which will continue, indeed, this afternoon, will not now take very long.

Disregarding the petty insults of the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Winnick) about Liverpool City Council, will the right hon. Gentleman, in considering this matter, draw a clear distinction between mentally handicapped children and educationally subnormal children.

I think it is very difficult to draw that kind of line, but I am in the middle of consultations and I had better not speculate on the merits of the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to set up a new advisory body on the training and supply of teachers.

I am giving close attention to ways in which I can obtain such advice. But I am not yet ready to make a statement.

In the present rather depressing financial climate surrounding the educational system, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that an early and positive decision would have a useful psychological effect?

An early decision is important, but many bodies are concerned, and I am in the middle of consultations. Nearly all of them have given me their views and I will make up my mind on the best way to proceed.

Has my right hon. Friend considered ways in which responsible student leaders can be drawn into consultations on expenditure on the whole range of higher education and not just about grants?

The Question is about the training of teachers. My hon. Friend's supplementary question goes a great deal wider than that.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will undertake a special review of student grants within the next 12 months.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects the Government's period of restraint of students' grants to end.

The timing of the next review of student grants will depend on the economic situation.

In view of the responsible attitude of the students' leaders to this issue, will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind the obvious dangers of a totally negative posture by the Government and the desirability of acting as favourably and sympathetically as possible to the reasonable suggestions made by the students?

I gladly agree that the student leaders of the N.U.S. have been extremely responsible about this. Indeed, I am still seeing them about the matters which they have put to me. As for the suggestions that have been made to me, as long as the ceiling is preserved, I shall consider them very favourably and carefully.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that students will not be treated any less favourably than any other section of the community?

indicated assent.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that students in, for example, science faculties must study during the holidays on field courses and that this involves them not only in the added expense of hotel bills but prevents them from earning a living? Will he give careful consideration to this group caught between two forces?

Yes, Sir. This is, of course, a matter which we must consider. I am aware of the problem, but I think that it would be better if the House were to await the time when I can announce the full policy—that is, when we publish the revised rates of grant.

Is not this a reasonable Question, bearing in mind the prospective increases in halls of residence and refectory charges and also the prospective increases in the cost of books? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, if he could give a slightly more encouraging answer, it would be of enormous help to the most responsible elements in the student leadership?

I agree that it is a reasonable Question. On the other hand, I must consider the general economic position. It would be irresponsible of me to say at this stage that within 12 months the Government will look again at these grants. This is a serious and reasonable request and I assure the House that I will go as far as I can to meet it; but I must bear in mind the economic situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the expected level of student grants for 1968–69; and what percentage increase this represents over similar expenditure in 1963–64.

I expect to announce the rates of grant to take effect next September when the report of the Brown Advisory Panel is published, which I hope will be in May.

In the meantime, is the right hon. Gentleman totally unable to give an idea of the likely percentage increase that will be shown? Will it not, in fact, be a very substantial increase and does not this underline the validity of the argument that at least some of the financing of student grants should be transferred to a system of student loans?

I do not think that that arises on this Question. In any event, it is a much bigger question which needs a great deal of thought. I think that I would be wise to announce my conclusions at the same time that I publish the report of the Brown Panel, which I shall be publishing at the earliest possible moment.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that as important as the question of the overall level of student grants is the question of ironing out some of the anomalies that exist, in particular, the need for some proposals to ensure that in future parents pay their full share of the amount at which they are assessed by the local education authorities?

I am considering a number of changes and amendments. If I decide to make them I will announce them when I publish the panel's report. The difficulty about trying to compel parents to pay the parental contribution is that one would have to devise sanctions to use if they refused to do so.

Send them to the salt mines.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has to assist the voluntary extension of schooling beyond the statutory minimum leaving age, particularly in those areas where the proportion leaving at 15 years of age is notably above the national average.

I refer my hon. Friend to the Answer which I gave on 8th February in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Mr. John Wells).—[Vol. 758; c. 638–9.]

Is my right hon. Friend yet in a position to indicate whether she can help matters by introducing a single school-leaving date? Will she also consider as a matter of urgency the possibility of introducing pre-apprenticeship vocational courses in the senior forms of secondary modern schools?

Order. The hon. Member should not anticipate Questions on the Order Paper.

A later Question is down to my right hon. Friend about a single school-leaving date. We will certainly look into the matter raised in the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he will take, in liaison with the appropriate educational bodies, to encourage the teaching of advanced level mathematics to the student of the social sciences or the humanities.

This is a matter relevant to the second recommendation of the recently published Report of the inquiry under the chairmanship of Dr. Dainton into the flow of candidates in science and technology into higher education. My right hon. Friend told my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Dr. Ernest A. Davies) on 29th February [Vol. 759, c. 400–1]—that he has invited the bodies concerned to let him have their views on the Recommendations in the Report.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Would she consider, in view of the obvious shortage of teachers of mathematics, making specific grants to the television authorities concerned with educational programmes for the teaching of mathematics to Q- and A-level students?

We will consider that suggestion. At present we are also looking into the question of in-service courses for science and mathematics teachers. We are also awaiting the results of the Schools Council's consideration of a possible new approach to sixth form mathematics in relation to changes in the curriculum.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his policy regarding the employment of part-time teachers in the light of the reduction from 6 per cent. to 31 per cent. per annum in the rate of growth of educational expenditure.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what evidence he has of local authorities cutting their requirements for part-time and full-time teachers for the coming financial year; which authorities are involved; and if he will make a statement.

I am aware that the Reading Education Authority has announced that it will not take its full quota of qualified teachers and that Hertfordshire, Surrey and the West Riding propose to employ fewer part-time teachers than they would otherwise have done. It is for local authorities to decide how they should spend the money available to them. I have made it plain that I should like them to preserve the training and recruitment of teachers at the expense, if necessary, of other parts of the service.

Dealing with part-time teachers, to which my Question refers, does not the Secretary of State feel that it is a most unhappy development that several authorities, as he has outlined, are proposing to reduce quotas for part-timers in view of their importance in specialised subjects and with immigrants?

Part-time teachers are off-quota teachers, but I agree that it is a great pity that a small number of authorities have acted in this way. The changes which they make will have only a marginal effect, but the importance of the recruitment of teachers should remain a top priority.

Is not this very disturbing news that the right hon. Gentleman has given, since any fall-off in recruitment could so easily affect the quality of entry into colleges of education? Will he do everything possible to publicise the advice that he has just given to the House?

Yes, Sir. I am happy to have this opportunity to publicise it again. I have told all local education authorities my views in this matter. If it were to spread it would indeed be serious, but I do not think that we have yet reached that stage. I am glad of this opportunity to reiterate my view that the recruitment of teachers should be a top priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he will take on the recommendations of the Dainton Report on the supply of science students.

I refer the hon. Member to my Answers on 29th February to my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Dr. Ernest A. Davies) and on 14th March to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Christopher Price).—[Vol. 759, c. 400–1; Vol. 760, c. 1601–2.]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the shortage of science-trained people is very serious? Does he also agree that it is urgent to resolve the conflicting views which in many respects have been put forward by the Dainton Report and the Schools Council? Will he make it his personal

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his estimate of the annual rate of growth of public expenditure on education required to maintain present educational standards.

I expect public expenditure on education in Great Britain to increase by about 7½ per cent. between 1967–68 and 1969–70. This should be sufficient to maintain present standards and, in some cases, to improve them.

As I understand it, that does not answer the Question. I asked by what amount expenditure on responsibility to resolve, and pronounce upon, these conflicting views at the earliest opportunity?

I agree that the relative decline in science students is a serious one. I think that the publication of the Dainton Report and the general agreement in the whole education sphere that this problem must be tackled will enable it to be solved. I do not think that it is for me to plunge into disputes of this kind and try to resolve them, but I know that the Schools Council, the vice-chancellors and others are looking at this matter all over again; and I hope that a generally agreed solution will emerge.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what share of total public current expenditure in Great Britain has been taken by education in each of the last four years; and what is the Government's estimate for the next four years.

The Answer contains a number of figures and I will, with permission, circulate a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

That was not the Question. It was, "to maintain present educational standards", and I answered that Question.

But, with regard to the initial Answer, does not the right hon. Gentleman's answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) this afternon show the real risk to educational standards implicit in the Government's policy on the rate support grant?

Of course, when we must make savings of this kind—and I take it that the right hon. Gentleman agrees that we must make savings to make devaluation work—there are some unfortunate consequences, though I do not think that they are nearly as grave as he and one or two others suggest.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science, what consultations he has had with the Arts Council about the rehousing of the Sadler's Wells Opera Company.

I have been keeping in close touch with the negotiations for a possible move to the Coliseum which have been going on between the Arts Council, the Greater London Council, Sadler's Wells and the owners of the Coliseum. Discussions are now in progress between the owners and the present tenants; I very much hope that the outcome will be satisfactory.

Is the hon. Lady aware that everyone hopes that the outcome will be satisfacory? Will she be good enough to keep us informed about progress?

Yes, Sir.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that the major concern of some people is the amount of touring that the Sadler's Wells Company is able to do? Will she bear this in mind in future negotiations?

Certainly. The Scottish director of Sadler's Wells paid a special visit to London because he is so eager that we should get this larger theatre which would have particular importance particularly from the point of view of touring.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what action he will take on the Arts Council's Report on Public Lending Right.

The Arts Council Report is being carefully studied but a number of complex points have still to be clarified.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the Report has been out for a year now? Will she please try to come to some conclusion about it in the reasonably near future, and inform the House when she has done so?

I am most anxious to come to a conclusion that would meet the legitimate claims of authors but the problem is complex because authors, publishers, the Library Association, the public and the Chancellor—all these various interests—have to be reconciled.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what financial help the Arts Council gives towards the administrative costs of regional arts associations.

In 1967–68 the South Western Arts Association have received £5,000, and the Midlands Arts Association £3,000 for their administrative costs. Arts Council grants to the other regional arts association are related to the overall programme of the association and do not contain an identifiable element for administration.

What happens if a fresh regional arts association wants to get started? Can it apply to the Arts Council for a grant? Should it go to the local authority? How does it get started?

The best advice I could give is to go to the Arts Council, because circumstances and activities vary from one part of the country to another. The Arts Council gives every possible help and advice.

I welcome very much what my right hon. Friend has done in this field, but could she still encourage the Arts Council to give special attention to the problem of development areas? Will she give help where new areas are taken into the regional council field?

Yes. We want to give the maximum independence and opportunity at regional level, but we cannot invent creative persons in these fields. A great deal depends on having a good receiving end.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what help he is giving to finance the secondment of trainee arts administrators to regional arts associations for practical experience and training.

The Arts Council is contributing to the costs of the first course for arts administrators which started in September last year at the Polytechnic, Regent Street. It is likely that the students will be attached for a few weeks at the end of the course to regional organisations, including arts associations, to gain practical experience, but details are not yet settled.

Is the right hon. Lady satisfied that a few weeks is adequate? Should not these arts administrators receive much longer training? Should they not have months or even a year in the field in order to learn the job, and be supported during that time?

I agree with the hon. Member. That is also the view of the Arts Council, but this is a new development which is in the experimental stage. I am anxious to see that they are adequately trained both in the theory and in administration.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consultations he has with the Arts Council about the Nottingham Theatre Board; and if he will make a statement.

I have received letters about the Nottingham Playhouse controversy and have discussed these with the Chairman of the Arts Council. The Council does not seek to interfere with local autonomy. It is, however, considering whether it would be helpful to issue some general guidance about the composition of theatre boards and their relationship with other bodies.

In view of the fact that the Arts Council spoke with two voices over Nottingham Playhouse, resulting I am afraid in the departure of Mr. Neville which was greatly regretted, may I have an assurance from the right hon. Lady that the views of those concerned with the Nottingham Playhouse will be properly and adequately considered, and that proper guidance, advice and help will be given?

All I can answer is that the Chairman of the Arts Council was good enough to speak to me when this controversy was beginning. We were delighted at that point to know that Mr. John Neville had been asked to withdraw his resignation. It would have been quite improper for the Arts Council, and still more for me, to intervene directly, but once the invitation to withdraw was made we were certainly extremely pleased about it. I am very sorry that afterwards the situation developed so badly.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that her Answer to the hon. Lady for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward) is very welcome indeed? When discussing these matters with the Arts Council, will she consider whether some advice can be given on the question of whether or not playgoers should have some say in the administration of the theatre?

The amount of public interest—and proper interest—in this subject means that the Arts Council is trying to do a very hard job. It is trying to refrain from intervening in areas of local autonomy while at the same time seeing that the interests of playgoers and everyone concerned are properly looked after.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that there has been much public concern about this very sad controversy? Is she also aware that it would be very much in the interests of everyone if the Arts Council could give some general guidance about theatre hoards? Although everyone agrees that they must not interfere with local autonomy, we are sure that they can find some way to pursue this difficult path.

I am sure that they will pay attention to that.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why his Department figures of £35·8 million, £35·3 million and £42·2 million for the value of educational building work completed in England and Wales in each of the first three quarters of 1967 differ from those contained in the Monthly Digest of Statistics issued by the Central Statistical Office.

The figures in the Digest of Statistics give the value of those projects which were completed in the periods in question while the answers to the questions of the hon. Member gave the value of work carried out on all projects, whether or not they were finished during these periods.

In that case, can the right hon. Lady kindly explain why in every preceding year, certainly for the last five years, the two sets of figures to which I have drawn her attention have coincided?

I could not answer that question without notice. I should, however, like to thank the hon. Member for one thing and I feel that I should explain this to him The fact that he asked this Question meant that we looked more closely at the figures in the January Digest of Statistics. We found that they were not complete because they did not include minor works and Youth Service projects, which meant that we had done more work than the January figures suggested.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science to what extent is an estimate made of the proportion of children staying at school for dinner in planning the design of new schools.

In all new school projects the local education authority is required to forecast the number of children staying for dinner, and to provide accommodation accordingly.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is concern that this figure may be under-estimated in certain districts? Does she accept that there are difficulties in new primary schools caused by the use of teaching space for school meals? Will she examine this aspect?

The normal cost limits for schools are intended to allow for kitchen and dining accommodation for up to 80 per cent. of the pupils. If we think there will be a need for anything further than the 80 per cent., we try wherever possible to allow for this.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what discussions he has had with the appropriate educational organisations on the question of the single school-leaving date; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he will introduce legislation to ensure that, as from the next convenient date, all pupils in maintained secondary schools leave at the end of the summer term whatever the date of their birth, thus ensuring that all have at least four years in a secondary school.

As I said in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. R. C. Mitchell), on 7th February, I am considering this. I am not yet in a position to make any statement.—[Vol. 758, c. 172–3.]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Could he say whether any educational or industrial organisations have expressed objections to this?

I do not think so. I think I am right in saying that education authorities which so far have given me their views are in favour and I do not think I have had any representations from industrial organisations.

Would it be a better arrangement that pupils should leave at the end of the summer term which followed their 15th birthday?

That is a possibility, but it is very difficult to have different ages, because employers have to be careful not to break the law. They must not employ people who should be at school. Although I shall look at this possibility, it is difficult to work out.

May I press my right hon. Friend on the question of the single school-leaving date? Would he not agree that this in some way would mitigate the postponing of the raising of the school-leaving age?

That may well be so. The main thing is to consider it in terms of the educational advantages, which are very considerable.

With regard to the first supplementary answer, surely it is not expecting too much of the right hon. Gentleman that he should know the views of the educational and industrial organisations which he has consulted? He really should know. Is not the time soon approaching when he should make up his mind on this matter, for which there has been pressure in the educational world since the end of last year?

The right hon. Gentleman has got it wrong. I have not yet consulted those organisations; some of them have volunteered views. There are a number of Departmental considerations which must be reconciled in the matter before we can embark on consultations. I have not started consultations, and that is why I am not fully aware of the position.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if, in view of the fact that by the terms of the Government's order raising the export licence value limit hundreds of national treasures ceased overnight to be national treasures because they are not expensive enough, he will lower the value limit for export licences for works of art from £2,000 to £1,000; and if he will make a statement.

The present arrangements are working as satisfactorily as anything can be expected to in this imperfect world. The hon. Member may be reassured to know that in 1965–66 only three objections were raised by the expert advisers to the export of works of art or objects worth less than £2,000.

Will the right hon. Lady look at this again? Is she aware that the policies of the present Government have already caused a major brain drain from this country and that unless she reconsiders her present ill-advised policy regarding works of art there will inevitably be a major drain of national treasures from this country over the next few years?

To answer the Question on the Order Paper, changes in the value of money mean that we are not endangering more works of art than before. We all regret it when anything of value leaves the country, but a Government must keep in mind that while we want to retain our own treasures London is also a very great international art centre.

Will my right hon. Friend press my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to accept the request of the Museums Association that rare archaeological treasures which may not have much commercial value should be preserved in this country?

I think that there is no dispute about any of those matters. We very much want those things to happen, but we cannot have 100 per cent. results and still have London the centre it is.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what plans he has to bring school buildings in Wales up to the standards obtaining in England;

It is our intention that all school premises, in Wales as in England, should be brought up to the standards laid down by the Department as quickly as the resources available for school building allow.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that only 17 per cent. of the pupils in Welsh-medium and bilingual schools are educated in buildings built since the war, as compared with the 60 per cent. of pupils in England in new buildings? Will she end this discrimination against Wales and, as a start, stop the proposed cuts in building in Wales?

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, ever since the war successive Governments have had to give priority to those areas where children would have had no schools to go to, where there are new populations, rather than to replacements, so that replacements have not gone ahead as quickly as we should like. Nevertheless, the total allocations for Wales were increased from £3 million annually in 1961–62 to £7 million in 1967–68.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the figures for Wales are very similar to those for substandard schools in the older industrial areas of England?

I am well aware of that, and that is why I stressed that we should have to look at some of the schools in England and in Wales, because I know that there are substandard schools in all parts of the country.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will take steps to encourage courses in nutrition for all children of secondary school age.

This is a matter for the local education authorities and the schools, but the study of nutrition normally forms part of courses in biology and is the basis of the syllabus for all home economics courses in secondary schools. The Department's pamphlets "Health in Education" and "Health Education" both contain suggestions on teaching the subject as part of the pupil's normal course. Nutrition also features in the Department's short courses for teachers on health in education.

Does not my hon. Friend conceive that perhaps something should be done to offset the damage to children's attitudes towards nutrition caused by the Government's cancellation of the secondary schools free milk service? Has he considered whether the cost of providing the nutritional course would exceed or be less than the fiddling amount saved by the Government's policy?

I do not think that the amount saved by cuts in secondary school milk can be described in the terms my hon. Friend suggested. That was not the view of its critics. We much prefer the great and vigorous campaign my right hon. Friend has conducted to get a take-up of free school meals by children living in poverty. I am happy to tell the House that in the past 12 months we have found 180,000 children who now have free school meals as a result of that campaign.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many additional university places will be provided in Scotland over the next five years; and what percentage increase this represents.

The block grant for Scottish universities for the quinquennium for 1967–68 to 1971–72 assumes that student numbers will rise by about 6,500. This is an increase of nearly 22 per cent. on numbers in 1966–67.

Is the hon. Lady aware that at present many young people with the full basic qualification cannot obtain university entrance? Does she feel that the 22 per cent. increase will be enough to cope with the demand? Has she closed her mind entirely to the possibility of a further new university in Scotland?

The rate of expansion is still being maintained at a very high level. I would point out to the hon. Gentleman, who I know feels very strongly about these things, that after taking into account all movements of students to and fro across the Border the position is that 8·8 per cent. of Scottish 18-year-olds go to university compared with 5·7 per cent. in England and Wales.

Dr. Miller.

rose—

Order. No one has a prescriptive right to address the House. Dr. Miller.

Will my hon. Friend push for a position in which every person in Scotland as well as in England with the necessary qualifications for entry to a university receives a university place?

That is very nearly the position for science and technology, and due to the University Grants Committee's policy of increasing the expansion of places for arts and social science students we shall approach rather more closely to that ideal.

rose—

Speak for England, Winnie!

Will the hon. Lady take into account in all her decision-making that prospective students in Scotland feel that they are in a rat race for places, and that they have about five months of total uncertainty during which they feel that a place will not be provided for them and that they might miss out in the race?

This is not unique to Scottish students, as the hon. Lady will know. It would be helpful if all universities were full members of the U.C.C.A.—the Admissions Council. There are one or two which still need to belong.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a further statement following the discussions with the Arts Council concerning the future of the National Youth Theatre.

At the end of November a deputation from the National Youth Theatre visited the Arts Council. The idea of a permanent centre at Camden was discussed, and the Chairman of the Arts Council undertook to write to the Borough Authority commending the National Youth Theatre to it on the grounds of the social importance of its work. He could not however offer to help the Theatre with its proposal to add a professional company to the work it is already doing.

I thank the right hon. Lady. Will she bear in mind that it is very important for youth to have realistic objectives? Will she therefore continue to press the Arts Council to give consideration to this matter?

I entirely agree with the end which the hon. Lady wishes to achieve. I hope that our youth centres—and they receive £5,500 from the Youth Service side of the Department—will encourage drama groups, but it is not the specific job of the Arts Council as such to do this. I hope that the local authorities, hon. Members and everyone else will give them every possible encouragement. The Chairman of the Arts Council has stressed the great importance of this work.

Does not the right hon. Lady agree that it is a pity that the National Theatre, the National Youth Theatre and Sadlers Wells should all be in London? Would it not be a good thing to send them to Edinburgh?

As a Scot, I want Edinburgh to have its own opera house, national theatre and youth theatre but I do not think that we should play "beggar-my-neighbour".

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to encourage research on the problem of climatic exposure, in view of recent tragedies at sea and elsewhere.

A considerable amount of research in this field is already being undertaken by the Medical Research Council and other bodies. Those concerned are very conscious of the importance of this work. I do not think that further encouragement is necessary.

In view of the disturbing lack of knowledge on this subject and the methods which are frequently wrong when there is trouble, will the hon. Lady look again at this and see that money is spent on this very important subject if she really is interested in saving life at sea and on Dartmoor and other places?

The hon. Gentleman is right to be so concerned. But the Environmental Physiology Research Unit is doing work on the reaction of human physiology to extreme climatic conditions and the British Standards Institution and the Royal Naval Personnel Research Committee are both working on the question of protective clothing. But all the scientific research in the world is beside the point if advantage is not taken fully of the discoveries made.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is aware of the problem confronting research fellows studying on the continent of Europe who find they cannot live on their existing stipends due to devaluation; and what increases will be allowed to these individuals to meet the situation.

Yes, Sir, I am aware of the problem. The fellows have already received increases of up to 11 per cent., depending on the country in which they are studying.

Is the hon. Lady aware that the Trustees—I speak as one—of the Fellowship are confronted with the problem of putting each application for exchange control individually? These men, who will bring back knowledge to Britain, are living on narrow limits on the Continent, where their costs have risen by 16 per cent. Will she be more reasonable in meeting the problem?

The increases have varied because the impact of devaluation has had different consequences in different countries. For example, Denmark has partially devalued. I will certainly look at the first point raised by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how much money was spent on cancer research in the United Kingdom in the last three years; and if he will make a statement on the latest position on the possibility of a break-through in the disease with reference to aetiology, early diagnosis and treatment.

Estimated direct expenditure by the Medical Research Council was £1·178 million in 1965–66, £1270 million in 1966–67 and will be £1·433 million in the current year. No estimate can be provided of expenditure in universities, medical schools and hospitals, or from private funds through voluntary bodies. Nor do the figures include anything for basic research, much of which may prove to have an important bearing on the problems of cancer.

Steady progress continues to be made on a wide front and twenty M.R.C. research establishments are doing work in this field. But it would be misleading to speak of a "break-through" and impracticable to attempt a summary of the present position of which account is given in the medical and scientific journals.

I thank my hon. Friend. Is she aware that this disease is one of the two groups which might be called the scourge of the twentieth century? While not wishing to decry such operations as heart transplants, may I ask my hon. Friend to give encouragement to any experiment likely to lead to a breakthrough in this research?

My hon. Friend's interest in this is well known and I assure him that the range of studies is very wide indeed, as a list of the Research Council's establishments involved would suggest.

Mr. Gardner—Question No. 38.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understand that my Question No. 37 was taken with Question No. 11. The only similarity I see is the mention of part-time teachers. I am wondering why those Questions were taken together.

That is a matter for the Minister. The hon. Gentleman had his opportunity to ask a supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will issue a circular giving further advice to local education authorities on assistance to pre-school play groups.

No, Sir. It is within the discretion of local education authorities to decide how far they can offer practical help to pre-school play groups.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that most local authorities refuse to give assistance to play group organisations? In providing for a national plan for the training of voluntary helpers, will my right hon. Friend accept that, for little money, a great deal could be done to help these voluntary workers? Will she try and ginger local authorities up a bit?

I hope local authorities will take action on this. For a limited period my Department has agreed to pay grants to the Pre-School Play Groups Association and the Save-the-Children Fund towards their headquarters expenses in this respect.