asked the Minister of Power what further curtailment of investment, having regard to the Budget, he now proposes to arrange with nationalised fuel boards, including coal, gas and electricity; and by how much he has reduced investments in these nationalised industries during 1968–69 to meet con- temporary economic needs and conditions.

Reductions of£17 million,£10 million and£4 million in the capital allocations for 1968–69 of the electricity industry in England and Wales and the gas and coal industries respectively were announced by my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on 21st December last. A further reduction of£16 million has since been agreed with the Electricity Council and Boards in England and Wales, primarily in the light of revised estimates of the trend of demand.—[Vol. 756, c. 488.]

May I be the first on this side of the House to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his new appointment? As there is now a good deal of dubiety as to what are the investment programmes of the nationalised fuel boards, changed since 21st December, not further changed on account of devaluation, and with no White Paper republished, could not we have more detailed figures circulated?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his congratulations. The cuts in the capital expenditure of the nationalised industries announced after devaluation were an integral part of the policy pursued in the Budget of restraining private and public consumption. I will certainly give thought to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, if he has any doubts.

I, too, congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and express the hope that we shall receive more direct answers to direct questions than we did from his predecessor. My recollection is that part of the£17 million saving for the electricity industry was due to the postponement of one power station. Which one?

I cannot answer that question offhand. I am grateful for the hon. Lady's congratulations.

asked the Minister of Power, having regard to the need for stability of prices as set out in the Budget, what steps he is taking to have urgent consultations with the boards of nationalised industries to prevent further price increases for domestic fuels, including coal, gas, electricity, fuel-oil and petroleum products, including paraffin; and whether he will make a statement.

Price changes by fuel producers in the public and private sectors are subject to the criteria set out in the White Paper on Productivity, Prices and Incomes Policy in 1968 and 1969 (Cmnd. 3590). The White Paper lists the products for which arrangements are being continued for fuel producers to give me early warning of proposed price increases.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman noted that the nationalised boards, notably electricity and gas, are leading the field in price increases since devaluation and that all these boards are now knocking up their prices steeply? What action is he taking?

The price increases announced by my predecessor were considered justifiable.

asked the Minister of Power by how many million pounds, and by what percentage, he expects the aggregate capital expenditure of the coal, gas and electricity industries to increase in each of the next two years, compared with the immediately preceding year.

On present information and at constant prices, I do not expect any increase.

That is gratifying, but will the Parliamentary Secretary keep a doubly careful eye on the future trends of these estimates so that there is no tendency for them to slip upwards?

All capital expenditure programmes of the nationalised industries are very closely examined before they are approved.

asked the Minister of Power when he expects to lay an order increasing the borrowing powers of the British Steel Corporation.

Probably before the Summer Recess.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is considerable concern about the amount of money which is being lent to the Corporation? Has he any idea when the first interim accounts will be published?

I am not quite sure of the correct answer to the last part of the supplementary question, but I understand that there will be a report covering July to September, 1967, and then another report later in the summer before we go into the Summer Recess.

Does the Minister recognise that this new borrowing will be considerably in excess of what was envisaged at the time the Bill was going through? Does he not recognise, therefore, that it is essential that the House should have accounts before it before it is asked to approve increased borrowing?

I fully understand that there is that degree of interest. My predecessor pointed out in the course of the debate that the£75 million, which I imagine that the hon. Gentleman has in mind, was a very wide estimate.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give details of the£252 million drawings of capital by the British Steel Corporation.

asked the Minister of Power why the British Steel Corporation draw£175 million of Government advances and£77 million of temporary borrowing, in view of the previous estimate that it would only require£75 million of capital during 1967–68.

I will, with permission, circulate the details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is a feeling that a considerable amount of the money which is being lent to the Corporation is going to cover current losses made by the Corporation; and will he tell the House what is the present net monthly loss being made by the Corporation and its subsidiaries?

The hon. Gentleman's assumption is quite wrong. If he will read the detailed Answer which is to appear in the OFFICIAL REPORT, he will appreciate that.

How does it come about that a public corporation can budget for£75 million capital expenditure and then incur£252 million? Is it not lacking somewhere in financial discipline, so that this runaway expenditure can take place on the capital side?

I am quite sure that the hon. Gentleman is wrong in his suggestion about runaway expenditure. The great addition to the figure has been caused by the desire of the Corporation to establish firm financial control. [Interruption.] Just a moment. The Corporation decided to eliminate bank overdrafts and other short-term finance and to replace this finance, which at vesting date totalled£126 million, with borrowing in its own name.

Will the Minister consider that a large part of the money going to the Steel Corporation should take the form of equities rather than fixed interest bearing stock and securities?

I should doubt that, but I do not know enough about it to give the answer.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give a direction to the British Steel Corporation to ensure that production continues in the steel industry in spite of the bricklayers' strike within the industry.

No, Sir.

Why not? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise the very serious situation that could develop not only for the steel industry but for the country as a whole? Is it not justifiable that we should ask him to try to do something to improve the situation so that we do not have a strike?

There is a vast difference between asking me to do something and instructing me to give a direction to the Steel Corporation. The handling of the dispute is a matter for the Corporation and I have no intention of directing the Corporation to act against its own judgment. However, if, behind the scenes, I can do something to help, I certainly shall.

On a point of order. The Minister must realise, Mr. Speaker, that the only way I could table a Question on this matter was to ask him to give a direction.

Mr. Lewis, Question No. 33.

asked the Minister of Power what proposals he has to reduce interest charges to the British Steel Corporation on its capital commitments.

None, Sir. The terms of the Corporation's commencing capital debt have not yet been settled.

Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Steel Corporation is likely to make a loss this year unless it is relieved of some of this debt? Will he assure us that it will honour the commitments it has?

I can only repeat the Answer I gave; that the commencing capital debt has not yet been settled. When it has been, we will be able to deal with the other matters.

May I again remind my right hon. Friend that, in considering this matter, he should remember that the capital debt need not necessarily take the form of fixed interest bearing securities but might take the form of equities on which dividend is payable, if dividend is earned?

In any case, that would involve legislation.

asked the Minister of Power by how much the capital programmes of the coal, gas and electricity industries would be reduced by an increase in the discount cash flow rate of 10 per cent.

An increase in the test rate of discount could be expected to lead to some reduction in capital expenditure, for example, through the effect it might have on the prices of coal, gas and electricity; but no realistic estimate of the reduction is practicable at present.

As nationalised industry borrowing is giving grave concern not only to hon. Members but to Mr. Schweitzer as well, ought not the Government to know what the effect would be of applying their own policy of raising the test discount rate, when the total gets out of hand? Why do they not know the answer?

Raising the test discount rate would have the effect of increasing supply costs and would, therefore, have certain implications for pricing policy.

asked the Minister of Power whether, because of the high level of public expenditure, he will give a general direction to the fuel and steel nationalised industries to prepare contingency plans, showing the effect of cuts of 10 per cent. and 15 per cent. in their capital programme.

Substantial cuts have already been made and of course the need for stringent economy will continue to be taken fully into account.

Taking the figures already published, which would work out at over£5,000 million capital expenditure in the next five years, does not the Minister think that a 10 or 15 per cent. reduction in this sum would be of major benefit in meeting the capital programme with which this country must deal?

That is a matter for continuing review. When the annual reviews take place the need for stringent economy must be accepted on both sides. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not give the idea, which I am sure that he does not want to give, that there must be excessive zeal in dealing with this capital expenditure, which is so essential for the future well-being of the country's economy.

asked the Minister of Power what is the machinery for consultation between his Department and the Defence Department regarding the maintenance of oil supplies to the United Kingdom.

The Department is in constant touch with other Departments, including the Ministry of Defence.

Will the Minister assure the House that in any consultation he makes quite clear the vital rôle that Simonstown has to play in the whole question of getting oil through to this country safely?

Questions of that kind are best directed to my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Secretary of State for Defence. But I would point out, as a matter of information, that tankers sailing round the Cape are not dependent on South Africa for bunkering or repair facilities.

But would not the hon. Gentleman agree that at the moment a large number of oil companies use those facilities, and they are a vital part, from the commercial aspect, of the oil lines to this country through the sea lanes?

I think that I have already answered the question quite clearly. Tankers do not require bunkering or repair facilities in South Africa. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting some kind of military experiment there, he should direct his attention to other Departments, not the Ministry of Power.

asked the Minister of Power what action he intends to take to strengthen the Consumer Consultative Councils associated with the electricity and gas industries following the recent report by the Consumer Council.

My right hon. Friend is considering the recommendations made in the report in consultation with the Consultative Council Chairmen.

asked the Minister of Power why his circular of 18th March, 1968, alleging that inaccurate information was being supplied to his Department and drawing attention to the penalties for knowingly or recklessly making a false statement, was circulated to all ironfounders and was specifically addressed at the same time to individual firms implying that these firms were guilty; and what steps he proposes to take to remove the misapprehensions this has aroused amongst reputable firms.

My right hon. Friend's predecessor and I have written to my hon. Friend and the Department has written to the few ironfounders who complained about the circular to remove any misapprehensions it may have caused.

Will my hon. Friend be good enough to make it quite clear to all concerned that this rather inept circular was wrongly addressed to the wrong people, and that this kind of exercise will not occur again?

We thought that it would be right not to single out particular companies about whose figures there were some doubts. Therefore, there was a general circular, though we agree that a mistake was made in having individual names and addresses added to it at the dispatch stage.

asked the Minister of Power what are the series of studies being held regarding the proposed power station at Seaton Carew; and by whom the studies are being carried out.

These studies cover the need for new power stations to meet the expected load; the relative costs to the economy of production from coal and nuclear power; and the effect of power station orders on the economy and on the industries concerned. They are being carried out by my Department in consultation with the other Departments concerned.

In view of the public concern and debate about this power station, will my right hon. Friend assure me that when a decision is taken he will make available the full facts on which it is based?

Yes, Sir. That will be done.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that we in the North-East are particularly concerned about this projected power station? Is he aware that there exists a strong suspicion that the Government have already taken a decision? Would he deny that and say categorically that such a suspicion is unwarranted?

I assure my right hon. Friend that the suspicion is unwarranted. When the decision is made, I will announce it.

Do the cuts mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman earlier—relating to investment in electricity supply—assume that the Seaton Carew power station will not be started in the financial year 1968–69? If so, will he ask the contractors to re-tender so that advantage may be taken of the technological developments which have occurred in the present year?

I am not sure, to begin with, that I agree with the hon. Gentleman's assumption. I might add that the Electricity Council recently reduced its load forecast and that I am now examining the implications of that.

asked the Minister of Power what steps he has taken in his consultations on the National Coal Board price structure to ensure that the Central Electricity Generating Board is allowed to compete on level terms with all other potential coal users interested in long-term supplies of cheap coal.

asked the Minister of Power, in view of the coal stocks in Scotland, whether, in the course of his discussions with the National Coal Board on pricing policies, he will raise the matter of future market trends.

All important matters bearing on the price structure will be discussed, but I cannot say how long the consultations will take.

Is it not a fact that Alcan has been offered coal at prices below those available to Seaton Carew and Longannet, and is not this creating an undesirable distortion?

The C.E.G.B. already receives substantial supplies of cheap coal from the National Coal Board, and the Board is anxious to increase long-term supplies of cheap coal to its biggest customer.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is mounting criticism against the selective coal-pricing policy, and, in the light of increased coal stocks, will he not consider doing something, where the Government are concerned, to influence market trends?

That matter is now under discussion between the Coal Board and myself.

asked the Minister of Power what estimate he has made of the additional potential use of coal through the establishment of new aluminium smelters in Great Britain.

asked the Minister of Power what estimate he has made of the extent to which, and areas in which, the plans for pit closures will be affected by the establishment of new aluminium smelters in the development areas.

I would ask the hon. Gentlemen to await the statement which has been promised by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade.

Could the hon. Gentleman urge his colleagues to announce a decision as soon as possible, because the continuing uncertainty is damaging?

I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will note the hon. Gentleman's observation.

Can my hon. Friend give an idea when this long delayed statement, on admittedly an intricate problem, will be made, and can he say at this juncture how many aluminium smelters there will be, where they will be sited, and how they will be fuelled?

All the points in that question would not be for me to answer today. It will be a matter for my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, and the timing of such a statement will also be a matter for him, not for me.

Why cannot the hon. Gentleman answer today? Are the Government actively supporting the application of Alcan to have a coal-fired smelter at Invergordon?

I can only repeat that this is not a matter for me or for my Department. Hon. Gentlemen will have to await the statement by the President of the Board of Trade.

asked the Minister of Power up to what level of cost per man employed he proposes to pay subsidies under Section 5 of the Coal Industry Act, 1967, in order to keep a colliery open.

Such a ceiling would not be appropriate.

As the cost is already reported to be working out at about£40 a man, would it not be a better investment for the nation and better for the men themselves if the Government were in these cases to embark on a really imaginative programme of retraining for more productive work?

That is not directly a matter for this Department. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should study the facts of the situation in relation to other Departments. A considerable amount of work is being done on retraining, and the redeployment of manpower in the industry.

To repeat my hon. Friend's question, will the hon. Gentleman pay assistance to the Coal Board in respect of pits where it is costing£40 a man a week to keep a pit open, as at Harrington No. 10 pit? Is it his policy to support pits like that?

There is nothing new in this. The question has been asked and answered before, both in debate and at Question Time. The answer is that we are pursuing the policy laid down in the Coal Industry Act, 1967, which was debated some time ago in the House.

asked the Minister of Power what has been the capital expenditure during the last financial year, and to date during the current year, incurred on the purchase of fully owned, and partly owned, subsidiary companies of the National Coal Board, respectively, and in total, not directly concerned with the gaining of coal.

I am informed by the Board that there has been none.

First, how much has been spent on the acquisition of builders' merchants, particularly Sankey-P.G.W. Holdings? Second, for the future, will the Minister arrange for full details of capital expenditure and expenditure on new subsidiaries to be published in the annual accounts of this and other nationalised industries?

Details of expenditure on such developments will be reflected in the Board's accounts for 1967–68. But the question asked is clearly answered, as the Board says that there has been none.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a further statement on the rationalisation of coal distribution.

Last November the N.C.B. and the trade completed a report on further rationalisation and I asked them to put the proposals into effect as soon as possible. Detailed consultations are now taking place throughout the country and I expect adoption of the policies in the report.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the pace of rationalisation of coal distribution is far too slow? There is mounting anger among miners and consumers that it is still costing as much to distribute coal as it is for the miners to produce it from the bowels of the earth.

I agree that there is a need for speeding up rationalisation of distribution methods. But since the report to which I referred was published, there has been an increase of 55 coal concentration points for rail-borne fuel throughout the country, 19 of them in Scotland.

Will the hon. Gentleman look very carefully at the effect of distribution costs on the price of smokeless fuels, bearing in mind the subtantial differentials between one part of the country and another?

All aspects of distribution costs are being taken into account.

asked the Minister of Power whether he is aware that the higher prices for coal charged to the South of Scotland Electricity Board will add£4,000,000 to fuel costs; and whether he will refer these prices and the price charged for supplying the Lon-gannet Power Station to the National Board for Prices and Incomes.

In its February, 1966, Report on Coal Prices (Cmnd. 2919) the National Board for Prices and Incomes recommended, and the Government agreed, that prices should reflect more closely the costs of individual production areas.

It would not be appropriate to refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes the price to be charged to a single power station.

Is the Minister aware that that decision of the Prices and Incomes Board acts against the interests of Scotland? Is he aware that the price of coal for the S.S.E.B. is£1 a ton more than for that supplied to the Central Electricity Generating Board? Is not that unfair? Can he do anything about it?

The Prices and Incomes Board drew attention to the fact that the price of coal in Scotland was on average much higher—and that it was more costly to produce than was English coal. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the N.C.B.'s pricing system for industrial coals is designed to reflect the cost of production and technical characteristics of each coal. That has its effect on Scotland.

Is the Minister carrying on the investigation which his predecessor started into the pricing policies of the Coal Board? Will he give an undertaking to tell the House when he has reached a conclusion about it?

Yes, indeed. We are continuing that course and I give that undertaking.

asked the Minister of Power if he will refer the National Coal Board's pricing policy to the National Board for Prices and Incomes.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that the people of Scotland are very dissatisfied with the situation whereby they pay£1 a ton more for their coal and 24 per cent. more for their gas? Does he realise the implications of that for Scottish development, and has he closed his mind to any change?

As I have already said, we have accepted the Prices and Incomes Board's Report. The National Coal Board has accepted it and the Government have accepted it, and I offer no hope of changing that policy.

Will the Minister undertake that if the National Coal Board is seen to be following an increasingly discriminatory pricing policy he will remind it of its statutory duty?

Of course I will. I am always a bit surprised at the zeal with which hon. Members opposite always want me to interfere with the management of nationalised industries.

Will my right hon. Friend tell hon. Members opposite that this is the policy they started, although there is no good reason why he should cultivate their bad habits?

asked the Minister of Power what further arrangements he has now made with the National Coal Board on the slowing down of pit closures.

None, Sir.

In order to banish the insecurity existing among miners everywhere, particularly in the North-East, would my right hon. Friend venture to advise the Chairman of the National Coal Board to make an early announcement about future closures?

I am very conscious—as conscious as my right hon. Friend—of the insecurity in the North-East and in my own country. I shall certainly undertake to talk to the Board, as I have already started to do.

Will the Minister bear in mind that historically the insecurity arose from the vacillating policy of his predecessor, who presented a White Paper to the House and then withdrew it, and then refused to publish the rate of rundown in the pits?

I have no comment to make.

Will the Minister tell the House how many pits are due to be closed down, and where most of them are situated?

I could not say at the moment, but I will undertake to find out from the National Coal Board what its plans are.

asked the Minister of Power (1) if he will require the National Coal Board to furnish him with a full report of the accident which cost four lives on 16th April last at the old Brackley Colliery, Bolton; and if he will take steps to ensure that all reasonable measures are taken to prevent a recurrence of such an accident.

asked the Minister of Power if he will cause an investigation into the circumstances in which three Farnworth children and a Bolton fireman lost their lives in the disused Brackley Colliery, Bolton; and if he will make a statement.

I apologise for the length of my Answer.

Both my right hon. Friend and I greatly regret this accident and would like to express our sympathy to the parents of the children who lost their lives and to the relatives of the fireman who lost his life in a rescue attempt.

Under the Mines and Quarries Act, 1954, the owner of an abandoned mine is responsible for providing and maintaining an efficient device to prevent accidental entry into any of its shafts or outlets. If the device is not provided or is not properly maintained, the shaft or outlet is deemed to be a statutory nuisance under the Public Health Act, 1936, and the local authority has powers to effect a remedy.

The National Coal Board tells me that the outlet in question had been sealed off by brickwork and was believed to be safe. However, a careful investigation is being made by the Board into this accident.

The Board owns about 57 derelict colliery sites in the North-West area, and ensures that its old shafts are regularly inspected, adequately protected, and the devices properly maintained.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and particularly appreciate his expression of sympathy for the parents of the children and the relatives of the fireman who lost his life when trying to save the lives of the children. In response to his remarks about the number of such sites, may I draw his attention particularly to Question No. 28, since this is a particular problem in the North-West? Will he consult with the Minister of Housing and Local Government to see if additional steps might be taken to protect people in general and children in particular?

The point to remember here is that in the North-West there are thousands of such shafts outside the ownership of the National Coal Board. Although these do not come within the purview of my Department, I will certainly undertake to consult my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

While appreciating my hon. Friend's expression of sympathy, may I ask him to look very closely indeed into the circumstances in which only a part of the shaft about which we are speaking was bricked or concreted and why it was possible for a small opening to be made by soil erosion or by the scraping of the soil, thereby enabling these crildren to gain entry to this lethal chamber?

My hon. Friend will understand that I cannot comment on the possible ways in which this opening was effected. That will be a matter for investigation. As I have indicated, the N.C.B. has already embarked on the necessary investigation.

asked the Minister of Power what total extra sum will have to be invested in the gas industry to convert existing consuming appliances for the burning of natural gas.

The total cost is estimated at about£400 million.

Will this be met by extra Treasury borrowing if it has not been covered already or, alternatively, is it proposed that the sum should be met by increased self-financing? If the latter, will it result in price increases to the consumer?

The question of where the capital is to be obtained for this kind of expenditure is one of the factors taken into account by this Department and the Treasury in due course in considering the allocation as between self-financing or borrowing. As regards self-financing of expenditure for this purpose and its effect on prices, we have already had the recent Report of the Prices and Incomes Board, and there is nothing further to add to its recommendations and their application.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that this sum of£400 million is likely to be only about a quarter of the total capital requirement of the Gas Council over the next five years, and will this not have a serious effect on the way in which the money is raised?

In response to the Question which has been put down, I can only confirm that this is expenditure for conversion, which excludes a number of other aspects of expenditure in relation to the introduction of natural gas into the system.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, according to the Prices and Incomes Board, it will cost, on average, about£30 to convert a consumer's domestic appliances? What steps is the Ministry taking to encourage the production of appliances which can be more readily and more simply converted when the time comes, so that this expenditure will not fall on the consumer?

This is already in hand in the industry. All equipment now being put on the market is so designed as to be easily adaptable over the 10-year programme. As regards the carrying of the cost by the consumer, as I have already said, prices will not be affected.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will state the cost per mile since devaluation of installing overhead and underground cables, respectively, to carry electricity; and the approximate total mileage in Great Britain to date of such overhead and underground cables, respectively.

As the Answer contains a lot of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is it not possible to make better use of underground cables in areas of great natural beauty? Surely the very high cost which has already been given could be reduced when the lines are in the rural areas?

I am not quite sure of the point of that supplementary question in relation to the Question on the Order Paper. The industry has a pretty good record in this respect. Every effort is made, within the bounds of economic considerations, to pay attention to amenity aspects of cables.

asked the Minister of Health whether he has now arranged for some patients at Broadmoor Hospital to be transferred to Rampton as recommended by the Estimates Committee's Report on the Special Hospitals.

No such transfers have been made since publication of the Report but the possibilities are being actively considered.

In view of the cogent arguments put forward by the Estimates Committee, can the right hon. Gentleman forecast when he expects such transfers to take place?

The hon. Gentleman will be interested to know that in the past four years an average of 15 male patients a year have been transferred from Broadmoor to Rampton or Moss Side. There are at present only 18 unoccupied beds for men at Rampton Hospital.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is some apprehension among residents in the near vicinity of Rampton about this transfer from Broad-moor? Will special security arrangements be made when the transfer takes place?

My right hon. Friend and his constituents should appreciate that no transfers will be made to Rampton except of patients who are suitable for treatment there; that is, patients who are broadly similar to those who are already being treated at Rampton.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the conditions at Broadmoor are very disturbing and that the staff there are working under exceedingly difficult conditions in trying to treat the patients?

I accept that there is an undesirable degree of overcrowding at Broadmoor. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is planned to build a further special hospital in the North of England to relieve the pressure on Broadmoor.

asked the Minister of Health when he expects the rebuilding of Broadmoor Hospital to begin.

The rebuilding of Broadmoor, which will necessarily have to be phased over several years, began last January, when work on the new workshops started.

While I welcome that Answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give an assurance that during the process of rebuilding very special care will be taken for the security of the comparatively small number of patients who are extremely dangerous and in respect of whom there might be anxiety during the rebuilding process?

Yes, Sir. I can certainly give an assurance that full regard will be had to security arrangements during the rebuilding.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Members of the Estimates Committee who went to Broadmoor were shocked to see the overcrowding there—with one day-room holding 40 people as a dormitory—and that the new building work should be undertake as quickly as possible? Is he aware that 100 years ago the Victorians managed to build Broadmoor in two years and that a Socialist Government should be able to do at least as well as that?

The rebuilding of Broadmoor, which is full, and perhaps—as I know both the hon. Gentleman and I agree—is overfull, is a more complicated operation than building it for the first time.

asked the Minister of Health if he will accept in principle paragraph 500 of the Report of the Royal Commission on Medical Education.

Decisions on this and other recommendations of the Royal Commission must await the examination referred to in my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Dr. Summerskill) on 4th April.—[Vol. 762, c. 141–2.]

As successful integration of teaching and regional hospitals has gone on satisfactorily in Scotland, and because of the time which it will take to implement this decision, will my right hon. Friend make an early decision about this aspect of the Report?

There will obviously have to be a good deal of discussion about this, as about many other recommendations. My hon. Friend will be aware that this is a subject relevant to the Green Paper on administrative structure, which, I hope, will be published fairly soon.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that teaching hospitals have a worldwide reputation and that no changes should be made in their status without the fullest possible consultation with all concerned?

Yes. I said in a previous supplementary answer that there was bound to be considerable discussion of this proposal.

asked the Minister of Health why statistics are not available in his Department as to how many foreign visitors receive free medical and/or hospital treatment in Great Britain in any one year, and the costs of such treatment to his Department.

The number of overseas visitors receiving free treatment is not thought to be large enough to justify the work involved.

asked the Minister of Health what is the annual average amount of money recovered in fees from foreign visitors who receive medical and/ or hospital treatment during their sojourn in Great Britain.

This information is not available.

Is not this an extraordinary omission? Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the great public interest in the cost to the National Health Service of treatment of foreign visitors, especially at a time when we must impose prescription charges on our own people?

I think that my hon. Friend must be speaking from information which is not at the disposal of my Department——

Oh?

—about the incidence of the use of the National Health Service by foreigners. If he has specific cases which we could identify, we would be glad to hear about them. Both hospitals and doctors have received guidance on this matter to determine whether or not free treatment is justified.

As the Parliamentary Secretary has no idea of the number of foreign visitors who receive treatment free, nor what amount of money is expended on that treatment, how can he say that it is negligible?

Because we have had no representations from the hospitals about this matter. I think that most hon. Members will deplore the xenophobic tendency by some elements of the population.

Would not my hon. Friend agree, however, that reciprocal arrangements are developing in other countries permitting treatment to be given free to British citizens there?

Yes, that is perfectly true. Unfortunately, our system has a basis different from those abroad, and in this country identification by means of an identity card, which would make checking possible, is not available.

While no one would wish to deny treatment to foreign visitors, may I ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary is satisfied that there is no abuse of our National Health Service by them? In view of his rather vague answers this afternoon, will he have another look at this matter?

My answers were not intended to be vague. We have received no representations from hospitals where the burden of this type of treatment might be expected to fall. However, if the hon. Gentleman has any cases which can be identified, we shall be glad to look at them.

I agree that the problem is apparent rather than real. However, would not my hon. Friend agree that the solution lies in the extension of reciprocal agreements with other countries, such as those with Scandinavia and Yugoslavia? What progress has been made in this respect?

Progress is slow, largely because of the difference of the services in those other countries, but the ambition to achieve more reciprocal agreements is ever present in our minds.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many revisions of the 1 inch and 2½inch ordnance surveys have been undertaken during the course of the last 30 years; and on what date it is proposed that future revisions be undertaken.

:The 1 inch maps are fully revised at intervals of 7, 15 or 25 years according to the amount of change and the demand for individual sheets. Between these full revisions, partial revision is made to take account of significant changes. The 2½inch maps were first published in the immediate post-war years and have since been extensively revised, though not all sheets have been brought up to date. Further revision of this series will be restricted to major changes pending gradual replacement by a new series.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he give an assurance that these provisions will be coordinated with local authority annual or quinquennial reviews of footpaths? As he knows, it is the intention to publish 2½inch and 1 inch footpath maps and it would be helpful if there were to be co-ordination between the Ordnance Survey and the local authorities.

I do not know whether I could go so far as to say that it would be co-ordinated with each quinquennial review, because it depends on the amount of change and the demand for the particular sheet of the Survey. However, the Survey is always in close touch with local authorities and all significant changes are incorporated, not only in the major revisions, but also in the reprinting which takes place usually between revisions.

asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what is the total of United Kingdom foreign debts; and what interest they carry.

As to the total of United Kingdom foreign debts I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer given by me on 29th March, 1968, to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). As to the interest they carry, I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer which my right hon. Friend the former Chancellor of the Exchequer gave to a Question by the hon. Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. J. E. B. Hill) on 27th November, 1967.—[Vol. 761, c. 359–60; Vol. 755, c. 22–4.]

Would it not have been much simpler and shorter for the Financial Secretary to give the figures instead of the references? Have these overseas debts been increased substantially since the Labour Government came to power? If so, by how much?

These debts have increased in various ways—[Interruption.]—including the meeting of a£800 million deficit—[Interruption.]—I am seeking to score a statistical rather than a party point, but the fact is that£800 million of foreign currency had to be found. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the Answers to which I have referred, he will see that it is far from simple to give such compendious and detailed information in reply to an oral Question.