asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will issue a circular to education authorities recommending that the building of new comprehensive schools shall not be under-taken until funds are earmarked for the entire project and that comprehensive reorganisation shall not take place until the project is completed.

No, Sir. Where a progressive increase in school population is foreseen, it is often necessary to build a new secondary school by instalments. It will depend on the local circumstances whether the school can then be organised on a comprehensive basis before the whole project is complete.

In those conditions is it not rather unsatisfactory to call a unit which is scattered over the countryside in a number of centres a comprehensive school? Is not that an illusion, and should not they wait until the school is ready before calling it a comprehensive school?

Sometimes when even a part of the school is built it can be organised on comprehensive lines. As I said, it depends on local circumstances and numbers.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what grant was made out of public funds to the magazine "New Worlds" during 1967–68.

Grants totalling £1,200 were made by the Arts Council.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a leading British newsagent refused to handle the March edition of the magazine? In view of the great shortage of money for all sorts of educational projects, does my right hon. Friend think that it is justified to spend any money at all on this sort of publication?

A decision on matters such as this must lie with the Arts Council. I understand that its literary panel has expressed its disappointment at the fluctuating literary standard of the magazine, and has decided to offer a grant of £600 towards four further issues of the magazine on the condition that the money is used for fees for new contributors.

No one wants to see censorship applied by the Arts Council, but would not the right hon. Lady agree that there must be a minimum public standard of decency when public money is involved?

I think that we must also agree on who will set the standards. I think that Lord Goodman, the Chairman of the Arts Council, put it very well when he said:

"We must be very slow to discourage experiment even if it runs counter to our own notions."

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, is it in order to discuss detailed grants by the Arts Council when the whole purpose of the Council is to remove authority for the distribution of public funds for the arts from the Minister and from this House?

If the Question is on the Order Paper it must be in order.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will reallocate the £16 million for schoolbuilding in education priority areas, to ensure that local education authorities in the West Midlands get a fair share of this sum, especially Wolverhampton, which has 12 per cent. immigrant children in its schools, and where more than 400 children of school age, some of secondary school age, are unable to get a school place.

No, Sir. The £16 million programme was for the replacement of schools in unsatisfactory buildings in areas of serious social deprivation. We have authorised the building of four new primary schools in Wolverhampton in the current year's ordinary school building programme and increased the Authority's minor works allocation. This should help Wolverhampton to deal with the immediate problems arising from the influx of immigrant children.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. The allocation to the education authority of the four additional primary schools has rather over-taken this Question, but may I tell my right hon. Friend that we are indeed grateful for that help to the local authority? Is my right hon. Friend aware that we still need more teachers, and will she help us to provide nursery education for the under-fives in this very overcrowded area?

I cannot commit myself on the last part of that question, because, as my hon. Friend knows, there is a serious shortage of infant teachers for the over-fives. Next week my right hon. Friend and I will be visiting Wolverhampton, and we can discuss all these questions with the authority.

In view of the terrible problems which exist in places like Wolverhampton, would not it be sensible to curb what the right hon. Lady called the influx of immigrant children and give the authority a chance to overcome the problems?

The children who are coming into the country now are mostly those whose parents are here, and I think that it would be inhuman to say that they could not join their parents.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what decision has now been reached on ending caning in schools for handicapped children.

I should greatly deprecate the use of corporal punishment on handicapped children but the ultimate decision on this matter must depend upon the professional judgment of the teachers.

Is my right hon. Friend going back on the clear statement by his predecessor that caning in such schools must cease? If he is, it is most deplorable. Will my right hon. Friend recognise the feeling among most people that there can be no justification at all for the caning of handicapped pupils in either State or private schools?

What would be deplorable would be for me to try to lay down how teachers should carry out their professional duties. I hope that we can make some progress on the question of professional status and that this is the kind of question which teachers themselves will consider in the context of a code of professional conduct.

On a point of order. I asked whether the Minister was going back on what his predecessor said, and he has not answered——

Order. Dissatisfaction with an answer is not a point of order.

Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there is a clear distinction to be drawn in this matter between mentally handicapped children and educationally subnormal children?

My hon. Friend is very unfair. I prefaced by reply by saying that I deprecated the use of corporal punishment for handicapped children, but teachers themselves must deal with this problem in the context of their own code of professional conduct.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the proportion of children in primary schools in the city of Leicester who are, or whose parents were, Commonwealth immigrants, and what is the highest proportion in any of such schools.

About 7 per cent. in January, 1967; the highest proportion in any Leicester primary school was 55 per cent.

In view of the real problem, which is now generally recognised, in regard to primary schools, will the right hon. Lady consider the concentration on the fixed resources available on extending and improving primary schools and abandoning the extravagant Socialist plans for complete comprehensive education?

No, I could not promise that. Nevertheless, we are anxious to do everything possible to help where there is difficulty because of immigration.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has to increase productivity in the teaching profession; and what discussions he has had with the relevant teaching unions on this subject.

I have no specific proposals at present. Teachers' productivity cannot be precisely measured. Much of the work of the Department is, however, concerned with a wide range of measures to improve the effectiveness of teaching, and we are in frequent touch with the teachers' unions about these.

But since, in the prices and incomes policy, productivity is the centrepoint around which incomes negotiations must revolve, and as payments in the public sector will be regarded as of great significance by those engaged in private wage negotiations, would not the right hon. Gentleman feel that there was a case for his issuing an early statement saying in what directions he thought productivity could be increased and relating it particularly to such things as the use of aids to education, so that he could influence the pattern of wage negotiations throughout the public and private sectors?

There is great scope for the use of further teaching aids, but clearly the criteria in the White Paper are not applicable to the kind of job which teaching is. Nevertheless, I reiterate that the really urgent need in teaching is to make more use of all the capital resources which have been provided over the last 10 years or so, particularly in the case of the universities.

When my right hon. Friend is considering that, would he remember that the period when there was payment by results in education was a disastrous period for education?

indicated assent.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will increase the Exchequer grant to the Council for Education in World Citizenship.

The Council for Education in World Citizenship is financed primarily by local education authorities and the other users of its services. I think it right that this should continue to be the source of its grants. I understand that it is the intention of the United Nations Association, to which the C.E.W.C. is affiliated, to increase the educational side of their work as a sequel to the recent drive for increased funds. My Department will be very glad to hear about these plans and to advise in any way it can.

I welcome that Answer, but would my right hon. Friend agree that, since we are spending over £2,000 million a year on defence because we have not achieved international understanding, another £100 million or so spent on trying to achieve it might be a good investment?

There was an all-party dinner at 10 Downing Street in May attended by leaders of all parties and there is a general consensus, I think, that we want to do all we can for education in world citizenship.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what reductions in teaching staff he anticipates during 1968–69 as a result of recent cuts in Government grants to local education authorities.

Government grants to local authorities have not been cut for 1968–69. It is important that within the education service local authorities should give priority to the employment of teachers, and present indications are that the numbers will rise.

But is it not a fact that at least 15 local education authorities are planning to reduce their teaching staffs, particularly part-time teachers, as a direct result of the Government's financial squeeze upon them? What on earth is the point of the Government's campaign to coax more married women back to teaching if, at the same time, they threaten them with redundancy in this way?

I have seen reports that a number of local authorities are contemplating cutting down on part-time teachers, but these have not been confirmed by the authorities. On the other hand, 39 local authorities have asked for increases in their 1968–69 quota. Some people are being a little too pessimistic about this: all the indications are that the numbers employed will rise.

Would my right hon. Friend assure us that all those who leave the colleges or institutes of education this coming July will be able to find employment?

Yes, I shall receive later this month a return for the October quota, which we shall increase, and I have every confidence that those leaving at the end of the summer term will find employment.

But can the right hon. Lady say how many authorities, since the January measures—including the curtailment of the rate support grant—are not recruiting up to their full quota, and how many are contemplating going slow on the recruitment of part-time teachers?

The cutting of the rate support grant is not for the current year. There will be an increase of 3 per cent. next year. These grants are not given to local education authorities but to local authorities, and the share of the education authorities must then be determined. I do not have the figures for the number who are not employing off-quota teachers, but the indications are that most local authorities would like an increase in their quotas.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he has taken during the last 12 months to encourage and develop swimming in schools under Government authority; and what plans he has for further action in this matter.

There is much interest in swimming in the schools and we are making a small annual grant towards the administrative costs of the English Schools Swimming Association. In 1967, 19 swimming pools were completed in maintained schools, under the auspices of my Department. A further 16 are under construction this year.

I thank my hon. Friend for the constructive parts of that reply. Does he realise that, during the last year or two, there has been a great wave of interest in swimming as a means to health? Will he strike out in order to help in this respect?

My Department has no intention of being submerged by this wave. Indeed we intend to ride upon it to see that more swimming facilities are provided.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what the cost has been?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the total number of sixth forms in the East Riding of Yorkshire Local Education Authority; and how many pupils are in each of these sixth forms.

In January, 1967, there were 18 sixth forms in the East Riding with a total of 884 pupils. With permission, I will circulate the figures for each school in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Do these figures indicate that there will be a relatively large number of sixth forms and a relatively small number of pupils, which would be difficult to staff and equip? Is there not a case for a sixth-form college in the centre of the county?

I know that the hon. Member has an interest in the sixth-form college at Beverley, but, as I have told him, the East Riding Education Authority produced a scheme without the sixth-form college. I know that there were two opinions about the matter, but we accepted the scheme put up to us by the East Riding Education Authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will seek to make grants to encourage French and German post-graduate students to consider doing advanced work at British universities, rather than those of the United States of America.

My Department provides funds, under the Royal Society European Science Programme, to enable European post-doctoral fellows to work in this country. The British Council also offers scholarships to foreign students. Both schemes cover France and Germany.

Although I praise the work of the British Council to which my right hon. Friend referred, is it not extremely undesirable that so many postgraduates from France and Germany should automatically gravitate towards the United States, without considering the work which they could do at British universities? Does he see any helpful solution to this problem?

I think that we are doing a great deal here, and my hon. Friend should not underestimate it. There is an additional factor, in that this country takes a very large number of Commonwealth students as well.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will seek powers to recommend a standard syllabus for computer programming schools with the object of establishing a nationally recognised examination.

No, Sir. This would not be appropriate, but I welcome the steps which are being taken on those lines by the co-ordinating committee recently established by the organisations chiefly concerned with computer education. My right hon. Friend is represented on this committee by an assessor.

Does this bulletin refer to the private computer programming schools? Surely the hon. Lady is aware that many students find the certificates which they obtain at these private schools virtually useless in obtaining employment. Would not a national examination, such as I suggest, provide a univerally acceptable qualification which would help to weed out the inefficient and the more dubious of these schools?

The bulletin is concerned with courses available at maintained schools, including colleges. With regard to independent schools, we have no power to impose a syllabus or to require that that syllabus shall lead to a recognised examination. But the Board concerned with computer examinations is now drawing up a list of nationally recognised qualifications. I recognise the hon. Gentleman's concern and also that some of these certificates are virtually worthless, but one can only draw the attention of would-be students to the fact that there are adequate and free courses available in the maintained system if they choose to take them.

Mr. Dobson.

On a point of order. I beg to give notice——

Order. The hon. Gentleman is a little too late. Mr. Dobson.

Would my hon. Friend agree that there is a wide divergence of courses in schools, some of them very shallow in scope and virtually useless as a means to achieving qualifications? Would she think again about this and encompass computer courses inside industry, for which there is still no recognition once the person concerned has finished the course?

Consideration is being given to the point in the latter part of my hon. Friend's Question. I was, of course, referring to the colleges rather than schools. He will know that the setting up of the Council for National Academic Awards is leading to the recognition of high standards of qualifications in this respect, but this is a recent development.

Mr. Hunt, point of order.

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I was not aware that the hon. Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Dobson) was rising to put a supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is aware that the parents of 600 children turned away from school on the opening day after Easter in Birmingham, owing to lack of places and lack of teachers, were not informed well in advance about the situation in the schools; and if he will issue a circular to local education authorities advising them to give adequate notice in future cases of this kind.

It is up to the local authorities to make plans as far ahead as possible. I hope that all authorities will do their best to give parents notice as early as possible in cases of difficulty.

Will the right hon. Lady ask her Cabinet colleagues to inform the House of the number of Commonwealth immigrant children who are entering these areas, so that local authorities can have advance notice of what the demand at these schools will be?

I understand that, although there has been an increase in the number of immigrant children coming into Birmingham in recent months, the majority were more than 5 years old and did not play a significant part in the recent difficulties.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in this instance, the Conservative leaders of the Education Committee attempted to blame the immigrant children for an administrative muddle purely of their own making?

As I have said, the immigrant children played very little part in this difficulty, which was more one of a shortage of teachers than one of buildings. But my right hon. Friend and I will be visiting Birmingham next week.

What proportion of these 600 were rising fives, as opposed to the children of statutory school age? With regard to immigrants, is the right hon. Lady aware that her factual answer is of considerable value and that many of us would deeply regret any attempts to inflame opinion on a matter in which the important thing is that the facts should be clear?

I thank the right hon. Gentleman very much. I could not say how many of these 600 were rising fives, but a number were, and they have now all been accommodated. It is also important that, in a big city like Birmingham, under-fives should not be taken in to school in one part of the city if that means that five year-olds in another part of the city cannot be taken in.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science to what extent, when allocating subsidies to the arts, he takes into account the foreign currency earnings of the institutions in question.

Grants and guarantees for the arts are made by the Arts Council of Great Britain which takes all earnings into account.

Would the right hon. Lady agree that considerable foreign currency earnings are to be made from the arts? Is it not, therefore, important to give assistance whenever possible from this point of view, just as the Board of Trade helps firms in the export drive?

The situation is that the excellence of our great companies and orchestras is such that they could spend their entire time abroad. We must, therefore, keep a balance in these matters.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the urgent need to give the National Youth Centre all the help that it can receive?

Yes, Sir, and if my hon. Friend will table a Question on that topic I will answer it.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that much of what she is doing would be better appreciated if people understood that there is every potential for the entertainment industry generally to make a considerable contribution to the nation's foreign earnings?

Would my right hon. Friend confirm that she has no control, and desires no control whatever, over the allocation of funds by the Arts Council and that that is solely the Council's responsibility and not hers?

I have answered that question and made the position clear on many occasions. My right hon. Friend should remember, on the other hand, the need for a certain amount of flexibility. It is only natural that hon. Members should be interested in knowing whether we are going ahead with such things as a great opera house or national theatre. It is equally right that, if hon. Members feel particularly strongly about a problem, they should raise it. I suggest, therefore, that the best course is for us to play this one by ear.

A fairly flat one, too.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the proposed new official bureau to give assistance to local authorities in relation to the arts.

The Arts Council does not have it in mind to set up a new bureau, but it does intend to commission a survey of the present position of the arts in the regions, with particular reference to the development of regional arts associations.

Can the right hon. Lady comment on the duties of Mr. Abercrombie when he retires from the Arts Council? He has been asked to commission a study. What are his terms of reference, who will be paying for it and can we have any other information on the subject?

We are fortunate in that when the Secretary General, Mr. Abercrombie, retires, he will be undertaking a survey of what is happening in the regions. Only after receiving the report of that survey will the Arts Council be able to consider whether any fresh machinery is required. In the meantime, the Secretary General will be doing this work as an employee of the Arts Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has now received the new plan for Bedfordshire County Council for the reorganisation of secondary education on non-selective comprehensive lines; and whether he has approved this plan.

I have recently received from the local education authority the further information which was requested last autumn. I hope to reach a decision on the plan shortly.

In considering this plan, would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that many Bedfordshire people believe that it will be possible to have a fully comprehensive and non-selective school system only if the two direct grant schools of the Harpur Trust are transferred to the local education authority?

I understand that the local authority has now had consultations with the Harpur Trust. The information given to us by the authority is one of the factors which we shall be taking into account in reaching a decision.

Would the right hon. Gentleman answer two questions? First, would ha agree that we very much hope that the relationship with the direct grant schools will be decided by negotiation? Secondly, is it not a fact that this plan is based on middle schools and assumes the money for the raising of the school leaving age? In view of the postponement of the raising of the school leaving age, must not this plan also be subject to some postponement?

We have asked the local authority for further information. The authority has had discussions with the Harpur Trust in Bedfordshire and, as I say, this is one of the factors which we shall be taking into account in reaching a decision on the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to introduce a superannuation scheme for part-time teachers in institutions of further education.

I have not yet received any recommendations from the Working Party on Superannuation Arrangements for Part-time Teachers about the introduction of a scheme for teachers in further education establishments. I understand that the Committee has some proposals under consideration and is seeking the views of a number of local education authorities on the difficult administrative issues involved.

Is the right hon. Gentle-man aware of the widespread hope that it will soon be possible to make progress on this issue and that, just as there was great feeling about a scheme for those teaching part-time—half-time or more— in the schools, so there is great hope in the world of further education that progress will be made on this issue?

I, too, hope for that, but we must wait until the Committee has made its recommendations, and then we will see what can be done.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the Schools Council and Dainton proposals for the future of the sixth-form curriculum.

I hope that much will come of a recommendation in the Report of the recent Dainton inquiry that more boys and girls should be encouraged to study for careers in science and technology. My right hon. Friend is now awaiting the views of a number of bodies including the Schools Council, whose views are expected in June. They will take account of the relevant recommendations in the Report when discussing with the universities and other bodies possible patterns of sixth-form curricula and examinations.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is there not now some urgency about this matter, since the Schools Council and Dainton recommendations are reconcilable and since there is a great desire in the schools to reform their sixth form curricula, yet there is not certainty about the direction in which they should move forward?

I recognise the need for more speed in view of the uncertainty that exists in schools. My hon. Friend will recognise that a major change in the whole structure of education is being proposed here, with the suggestion that specialisation in secondary schools at an early age should be abandoned. I assure him that the Schools Council will be bearing in mind the Dainton recommendations in making its suggestions in June.

If we wish to encourage science in sixth forms what are we doing to encourage science teachers? Is the hon. Lady aware of the grave shortage of science teachers? Would she consider getting some secondment from industry?

We are aware of this and the hon. Gentleman may like to know that the first three courses for science teachers returning for refresher in-service courses in universities are being started as an experiment this summer. We hope to widen the experiment later.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many schemes for polytechnics he has now approved; and when he will have made decisions about all the schemes which he has invited local education authorities to submit.

My right hon. Friend expects to be able soon to announce decisions on most of the 20 schemes that have been submitted. The timing on the remaining schemes must depend on when they are submitted by the authorities concerned.

Is the Minister aware of the impression that the Government are backpedalling somewhat in their previous enthusiasm to get these polytechnics off the ground? Will she give an assurance that this is not so?

There is no question whatever of the Government backpedalling on this. My hon. Friend is no doubt aware of the two important factors which arise. The first is that we wish to consult the professional associations involved, and particularly those of teachers in colleges of further education; it would be wrong to go ahead until they feel that they have had ample opportunity to put their views forward. The second is that these schemes must be fully liberal, and to achieve this there must inevitably be a great deal of consultation with the local authorities concerned.

Could my hon. Friend say whether if reasonable evidence could be provided in regard to the London area, where polytechnics have already been established, there might be a need for some amendment of the original decisions?

We are open to suggestions for amending schemes until the point when they are designated. There are, from the point of view of London, quite particular difficulties about the number of polytechnic schemes.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement about the cuts in expenditure on the Youth Service, and in particular on the effect of the reduction in grant aid on the Youth Service building programme in the Bournemouth area.

A Youth Service building programme of £3·8 million has been allocated for England and Wales in 1968–69; it includes £27,160 for a Bournemouth project.

Would the Minister kindly answer the Question? To what extent is this a reduction on the original figure and, if there has been a reduction, when does he expect it to be made good?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not know that last year's building programme amounted to £4·8 million, but on previous occasions this figure has been given.

Answer the Question.

I have. I thought that the hon. Gentleman would like to know the situation in relation to the Bournemouth area.

On a point of order. In view of the wholly unsatisfactory Answer of the Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his estimate of the total losses, due to damage and theft, respectively, caused by those who broke into schools in England and Wales during each of the past three years; and what recommendations he has made to local education authorities regarding preventive measures.

We have made no such estimates and preventive measures are a matter for the local education authorities.

Is it not somewhat extraordinary that no attempt has been made to evaluate this serious problem at local level? As an interim measure, pending such an evaluation, would my right hon. Friend consider recommending local education authorities to at least install burglar alarms in headmasters' studies?

It is up to local education authorities to take decisions of this sort. They know their areas and are able to authorise installations of this type. If a local authority wished to incorporate such a burglar alarm system in a school—provided that the cost of the building was not exceeded—we would agree. This is a matter which must be left to local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will circularise local education authorities advising them not to make student grants conditional on promises of the students' future behaviour.

I see no reason to do so. The conditions governing the payment of duty awards—as opposed to discretionary awards—are set out in statutory regulations.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Minister of State yesterday deplored action by local authorities which assumed behaviour on the part of students? Does he accept that if students break the law they should be dealt with like other people, and that if they offend against their universities or student bodies, those bodies should deal with them and not local authorities?

I remind my hon. Friend that Statutory Regulation No. 22(3) states:

"If, after consultation with the academic authorities, an authority is satisfied that the holder of an award has shown himself by his conduct to be unfitted to hold it, it may terminate the award or suspend it."

Would the Minister agree that the taxpayer and ratepayer should not be expected to give a subvention to disorderly behaviour and student hooliganism where it exists in a minority of cases?

Yes, Sir, but there is a good deal more to it than that. I was asked a specific Question and I have answered it. If, now, the hon. Gentleman raises a much wider question, then he must accept that there is a lot more to it than he may think. Excess in student protests is one thing. To try to stop every type of student protest is a very different matter. There are two factors involved here. The first is the terrible conflicts in society itself. Students would be abnormal if they were not acutely sensitive to these. The second is the fact that many of our universities still do not give students a part in running their own affairs. The concept of a university is that it should be a self-governing body of students, but a great body of the students are not at present able to take part in the governing of their universities.

Why all this fuss about these young people kicking up a row now and again? Are they making any more of a nuisance of themselves than the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Sir T. Brinton)?

Kidderminster?

I should have said the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir G. Nabarro).

Ignoring the momentary lapse of memory on the part of the right hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Shinwell), may I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is aware that his Answer about refusing to circularise will meet with wide approval in House and that, for the rest, many hon. Members would probably prefer this matter to be left where the Minister and I left it after Question Time yesterday?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many primary schools in Bedford have over 50 per cent. non-English born pupils.

Six, Sir. The pupils include children born outside the British Isles whose parents were of overseas origin and children born in the United Kingdom whose parents came here as immigrants within the previous 10 years.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that very interesting reply, may I ask her to assure the House that in trying to provide special help for these schools, priority will be given to those which have an extremely high ratio compared with the normal ratio rather than treating all schools with more than one-third non-English pupils on an equal basis?

I am not sure that I follow the precise point my hon. Friend has in mind. I assure him that we want to help all schools, whether the percentage is below or above 30 per cent. One reason why my right hon. Friend and I are visiting schools is to see how this rule is working.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to attract a bigger proportion of student teachers to enter infant training courses.

The colleges of education are devoting a higher proportion of their greatly expanded capacity to the training of teachers of infants. Over the last five years the colleges' annual intake of students has increased from 17,000 to 36,000 and the numbers entering courses which equip them to teach infants have risen from 5,000 to 12,000.

Is this not still well below the level needed to make up the shortage of infant teachers? Would it not be well to take a new look at the teacher courses, both at a high and a lower academic level, with a view to encouraging more places to be provided in colleges and getting more girls of different academic attainment to fill them?

At the present time the situation is that the number of infant teachers coming out of the college is, or should soon be, adequate to meet the needs of the children, but the hon. Member will appreciate that one of the great difficulties is the very heavy wastage among young women teachers. With the number of authorities moving over to middle schools, courses which concentrate entirely on infant work for the five-to seven-year-olds may not be as suitable as infant-junior courses which enable authorities to reorganise on middle school lines.

What steps are being taken to train more nursery school teachers and so to implement the Plowden Committee's Report?

My hon. Friend will be aware that at present a nursery class requires a full-time qualified infant teacher. I understand that there has not yet been agreement in the profession on the proposals of the Plowden Committee on the rather different qualifications for some nursery school assistant teachers.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will revise Rule 16, in view of his policy of discontinuing the registration of independent boarding schools which are not recognised as efficient.

No, Sir. These rules are very general in character and it is the interpretation of terms in them, such as "suitable", "satisfactory", "efficient", which matters. I do not intend that the new policy shall be applied inflexibly.

Does not this rule specifically state that it is for conferring

"a special mark of the Secretary of States's approval"

I gave the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members opposite the assurance last week that I want to deal with this matter in a flexible way. He is showing great concern about the proprietors of these schools, but we have to consider the children in these schools as well. I do not think hon. Members opposite would send their horses to an unqualified vet, or put them in an inadequate stable, but they are willing to do this with their children. We have to show some concern for the children in these schools.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that that answer will strike some of us as a little unfair and one-sided? My right hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) is showing a perfectly proper concern for proprietors who do mind about educational standards. Will the right hon. Gentleman look at this point again?

I understand the point of view of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Sir E. Boyle). I know his concern and I do not want to be unfair to him, but hon. Members opposite have gone on about this for quite a long time. I have given them an assurance in explicit terms that I will deal with the matter in a careful and flexible way. I hope that they will accept that.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many children in England and Wales who had attained the statutory age for school attendance have been refused admission to school during the present term; and if he will indicate the areas in which this has happened most.

This information is not available. I know that a few authorities have had difficulty recently, among them, Ealing, Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is indeed a problem in some parts of the country? Will she bear in mind that to attend to this end of the educational scale is just as important as the extension of the school leaving age?

Yes, I know this is extremely important. If my hon. Friend has any particular area in mind, perhaps he will let me know.

Will the Minister of State now answer my earlier question? Will she ask her colleagues to inform her of the number of immigrant children coming to the country so that the load on local authorities may be established?

I am sorry, I did not hear the hon. Member's question.

Will the right hon. Lady now ask her colleagues to tell her how many immigrant children are coming to the country so that she can tell the local authorities the load to expect in the schools?

We know how many immigrant children come into the country but, as I explained to the hon. Member when I answered his question, the difficul- ties he had in mind in Birmingham were not produced by the immigrant children but by the general shortage of places.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science which local education authorities have instituted nursery classes consisting of several groups of children in charge of nursery assistants, but supervised by a trained infant teacher, as recommended in the Plowden Report.

I am not aware of any such arrangement.

Is not this recommendation so crucial to the making of any progress in this most important sector of education that it is highly desirable that the Department should encourage such an experiment to be carried out to see whether the proposal works in practice?

I agree with the hon. Member that this is very important, but, as he will recognise, I have had many Questions this afternoon about the shortage of teachers for those who have attained the age of five. When we overcome those difficulties we should like to make a start in the educational priority areas.