asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what response there has now been to the introduction of the 100 per cent. mortgage guarantee scheme.

According to a sample survey of building society mortgages, about 10 per cent. of mortgages completed during April were option mortgages and of these over 35 per cent. came under the guarantee scheme.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any plans to extend the scheme to those with no money to put down as a deposit but who nevertheless will not obtain any advantage from the option mortgage scheme?

I have no power to do that at present.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what representations he has received to permit those who have exercised a mortgage option to change their decision.

Certain representations to this effect have been received, but there is no provision in the Housing Subsidies Act, 1967, for a properly given option notice to be revoked.

Is the Minister aware that certain people who have taken on the option mortgage are now, because of the family allowances, paying more than they would have paid had they not taken it on? If the right hon. Gentleman cannot take action, will he have a word with his right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Chancellor to see whether he can do something on his side?

I have no power to do it at the moment, and I think that we have to take into consideration the interests of the various lending agencies who administer this scheme and who felt at the time that to introduce a choice of this kind would add greatly to the complications of the scheme.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that genuine mistakes can be made and cause quite considerable difficulties, and that circumstances might change, too? In those circumstances, will he consider bringing in legislation to change the present situation?

As my hon. Friend knows, anybody can opt into the scheme but cannot later opt out. I think that we must have regard to the interests of the lending agencies who are responsible for the administration of the scheme.

But does not the right hon. Gentleman understand that the questions put to him this afternoon show that there are grave deficiencies in the Act as it is now operating? Far too few people are exercising the option because its operation is too limited. Also, as hon. Members on both sides have said, the Finance Bill has perpetrated a fraud on some of the people who have got in.

Ten per cent. of existing borrowers have taken advantage and 5 per cent. of new ones, which is about what we originally estimated. I have not ignored the point which the right hon. and learned Gentleman makes, but at the moment I have not these powers and I see little chance of legislation in the immediate future.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this is a first-class piece of legislation, of which his Department is entitled to be proud, but that difficulties are being experienced? Would he undertake to review this within 12 months to see whether further legislation is required?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. About 160,000 families among existing borrowers have already benefited and, on present figures, about 50,000 families per year among new borrowers will do so. We shall naturally keep the operation of the Act under review, and if we decide that any amendment is necessary we shall take that into account, but I cannot promise it at this stage.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what modifications of the mortgage option scheme he is considering.

None, Sir.

While the right hon. Gentleman has explained that he has no power at the moment to change the option mortgage scheme, is he aware that his booklet on the scheme explains that people paying tax of £80 a year are likely to benefit if they take the option and that that statement is no longer true? Has he any plans to change the booklet if he cannot change the law?

I share the concern of the hon. Gentleman. If, in fact, the booklet is now misleading, I will, of course, look at the point he raises and see whether any corrective action is required.

While congratulating my right hon. Friend on planning to take this belated action, may I ask him to agree that where the Government takes financial measures which tip the balance of advantage against those who have taken up the mortgage option scheme there should be scope for some compensatory action so as not to cause great disillusion?

I am afraid not. [Interruption.] Taxation is a normal risk. This matter was thoroughly discussed in Committee when the Measure was going through the House, at which point hon. Members decided to approve the Measure in its present form. It is too early to start contemplating an amendment along the lines suggested by my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government why he has made no reference in Circular 25/68 to provision for increased costs in the period to 31st March, 1968.

The circular explained that the general aim should be to avoid putting up rents by more than the amount needed to cover the rise in costs in the year; but I accept that rent increases in 1968–69 may also reflect extra costs incurred before 31st March, 1968.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not consider amending his circular to take these costs into account so that local authorities know where they are over proposed rent levels for local authority houses?

If the hon. Gentleman will read the circular—it was No. 25/68—he will find the point covered. The point which we were making there was that increases in rents should not cover anticipated increases in subsequent years, but we fully accept that any expenses incurred before the circular was issued can be taken into account for current increases.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what reduction in the number of rent assessment officers was made during the financial year 1967–68 and what reduction is expected during the present financial year.

The net reduction in the financial year 1967–68 was 33 officers, of whom 19 were part time rent officers. It is expected that in the present financial year the reduction will be in the order of 30 officers, of whom more than half will be part time rent officers.

Why should there be any reduction at all? Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that they will be required under the Government's announced policy in the White Paper, "Old Homes into New Homes"? Are the Government seriously intending to carry out that policy as early as possible?

The answer to the last sentence is, yes, we are intending to carry out the policies of the White Paper. As to the other matter, we cannot keep staff hanging around waiting until the work is there. We must economise in staff.

Will my hon. Friend note the enthusiasm and persistence with which Conservative Members are pressing for higher rents through rent decontrol?

I hope that my hon. Friend will not forget that there is much more in the White Paper than just high rents.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what further provisions he is now making for housing immigrants.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renée Short) on 7th May.—Vol. 764, c. 202–3. Areas with severe housing needs are already being given priority, their programmes are proceeding apace, and the further urgent study of areas with special problems, including those with large immigrant populations, is being undertaken.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many flats in multi-storey buildings are at present under construction; how many more are authorised and awaiting commencement, in design similar to the Canning Town block where disaster occurred, in May, 1968; what changes in policy he proposes pending publication of the report of the public inquiry; and whether he will make a statement.

At 30th April, 1968, 64,142 dwellings in multi-storey buildings of all types were under construction for local authorities and new towns in England and Wales. At the same date, 6,525 dwellings in multi-storey buildings in systems using large precast concrete load bearing panels were approved but not started. Of these, 29 dwellings were to be built by the system of construction used in the Canning Town block. I have asked the Chairman to pass on to me anything emerging in the course of the inquiry that indicates a need for interim action.

How long does the right hon. Gentleman expect that it will be before the report on the Canning Town disaster is available for us to read? If it is likely to be any substantial length of time, is it wise for these constructions to proceed unimpeded all over the country when they are of the same design as the Canning Town block?

I said in my reply that 29 dwellings were to be built by the system of construction used in the Canning Town block. Mr. Griffiths, the Chairman of the Tribunal, has not been able to give a date for the completion of his work, although he knows my view; that I would like to see the report as quickly as possible, consistent with a thorough investigation of the problem. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate the importance of my not saying anything at this stage which might appear to prejudge the findings of the Tribunal or might be likely to cause alarm in cases where alarm is probably uncalled for.

While recognising the deep concern that exists over this matter, is it not important for us to keep a sense of proportion and recognise that industrial building on the high-rise plan has been going on successfully for more than 20 years in this country, in Europe and elsewhere?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for that comment.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now review the policy of encouraging local authorities to build very high blocks of flats.

I have not encouraged local authorities to build high flats. Indeed, they were asked on the contrary in Circular 36/67 to re-appraise their policies for housing densities and layouts where these appeared to demand a high proportion of high rise dwellings.

While appreciating the difficulties of many local authorities, would it be possible for the Ministry to lay down a provision that before loan sanction is granted for particular schemes certain playing facilities for very young children should be included in all tall blocks of flats?

This is a problem which is under review by the sociologists in my Ministry, and I hope to be able to issue guidance to local authorities, probably later this year.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will initiate a study into the possibilities of constructing a complete local authority register of property ownership with the aim of enabling houses to be bought and sold through the local authority as a simple log-book transaction, thus reducing house-purchase costs.

No, Sir. Investigating the title of every property would involve a great expense and burden of staff. Much of the information is already available in the Land Registry.

Would my hon. Friend accept that, while difficulty might arise in a few cases, 80 per cent. to 90 per cent. of houses bought and sold could be transacted on such a log-book basis? If one can buy an £8,000 Rolls Royce via a log book is there any reason why one should not be able to buy a £4,000 house in the same way?

I am afraid that land attracts historic accretions which motor cars do not. I am sure that the best way to proceed is to push on with compulsory registration of titles.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the inadequacy of the registers at the present time is causing a great increase in the work of conveyancing? As a first step, will he look into the matter of seeing that all proposals and encumbrances on property are registered on one register in one place so that the work of conveyancing could be thereby reduced and the cost possibly reduced?

We will certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has suggested.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he is taking to assist local authorities to provide special housing for old people.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what priority is given to accommodation for the elderly in considering current local authority house building allocations.

Housing of old people is one of the priority needs for local authority housebuilding and, as an encouragement, higher costs on houses with special features designed for old people are admissible for subsidy.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that some of our housing problems could be dealt with by adopting a sensible policy of transferring council tenants to accommodation suited to their needs? Is he satisfied with the present provision of purpose-built flats for the elderly?

The type of house to be built for old people is a matter for the local authority to decide, based on its local knowledge.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some local authority flats built for elderly people provide a relatively cheap way of supplying initial accommodation in that when they are provided with alternative accommodation the elderly release their older houses? Will my hon. Friend ensure that in any representations he makes to local authorities this year he will see that this important area of accommodation is not cut?

Accommodation suitable for old people represents, on average, 28 per cent. of the total public authority provisions; and as the total provision in this sector is going up, the amount of accommodation provided for old people is also going up.

Is it not a fact that the 28 per cent. average of annual output to which he referred has gone down every year while the Labour Party has been in office? What do the Government intend to do about this problem in the future?

The hon. Gentleman is wrong. The figure has remained stable over the years, although the absolute numbers have gone up because our output has been a record one.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will introduce legislation requiring building societies and others lending money for house purchase to provide copies of the surveyor's report to prospective purchasers who pay for such reports.

No, Sir. To compel building societies to provide copies of these reports would imply that they were more general help to purchasers than is the case.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it simply is not good enough to accept uncritically the opinions of the Building Societies Association? Would he at least have discussions with the Association, which might be prepared to reconsider this matter, so that many hundreds of thousands of people who are paying money for something that they are not getting might see something for their money?

I can assure my hon. Friend that we have had and continue to have discussions with the Association. It takes this view and, short of legislation, at the moment it does not seem likely to alter it.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what financial assistance he will offer to the Greater London Council in order to help it to meet an estimated loss of £1 million resulting from his refusal to allow the Council to proceed with its fair rents scheme.

None, Sir. Local authorities are not entitled to compensation from national funds for restraint on prices and incomes.

Is the Minister aware that, as a direct result of his meddling interference, the ratepayers of Greater London are now being called upon to find an extra £4,500,000 in the course of the next two years? Is it not financial and social madness to force the G.L.C. to cut the rents of its top income tenants at the expense of the general ratepayers, many of whom are living in far less affluent conditions than some of the G.L.C. tenants?

As a result of what the hon. Gentleman kindly calls my "meddling interference", the average increase proposed has been reduced from 11s. 7d. to 7s. 6d. a week and the highest individual increase reduced from 22s. 6d. to 10s. I think that is well worth while. The estimated loss of revenue to the G.L.C. is equivalent to about 1½d. general purposes rate.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind that a lot of nonsense is being put around about rent increases in the G.L.C? Is he aware that the unfair policy being operated by the present masters across the river is involving the placing upon tenants of charges which ought to be borne by the system at large, for example the Thames-mead scheme in my constituency?

I do not want to comment on individual schemes, but I am entitled to point out that the G.L.C. basic subsidy per dwelling went up from £24 under the previous Administration to £173 for the cost of a £6,400 house.

Will the Minister agree that the G.L.C. policy is entirely in accordance with the Ministry's circular and advice on rent rebate schemes?

I am grateful to the authority for saying that there was a great deal of wisdom in the circular that I issued.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the phrase in the original Question, "fair rents" scheme, has been hotly disputed by tens of thousands of Londoners?

The proposal for a "fair rents" scheme was turned down by the Prices and Incomes Board, so it does not arise here.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what number of dwellings he expects will be completed this year by cost/ rent housing societies and by co-ownership housing societies, respectively; and whether he anticipates any increase in 1969 in either category.

Four thousand to 5,000 housing society dwellings should be completed in 1968, and a somewhat larger number next year. This year three-quarters or more of these are likely to be built by cost-rent societies, but many of the dwellings will probably be turned over to co-ownership on completion. My right hon. Friend hopes that next year the proportion of co-ownership dwellings will be preponderant.

Can the Minister explain the relative failure of these projects? Is it due to suspicion or lack of familiarity on the part of the public, or is it because district valuers are unduly timid in making their assessments of the rents that might be obtained?

My right hon. Friend has invited a sub-committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee, under the chairmanship of Sir Karl Cohen, to look at the whole problem of housing associations and housing societies. We will await the report with great interest.

Will my hon. Friend reveal the limit which his right hon. Friend has placed on the cost of these units? I understand that special permission has to be given to a housing corporation for any project or unit in excess of £5,000 and that no such permission has been given to date? Will he review that?

This involves the use of public money and my right hon. Friend is most anxious that it should be used to meet the need for moderate rents and not be used for anything in the nature of luxury buildings.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government approximately how many houses he expects to be removed from rent control under the proposals of the White Paper, "Old Houses into New Homes"; how many of these houses are already equipped with a bath, inside lavatory and hot water system; and over what period it is proposed to phase the ensuing rent increases.

Our estimate is that after deducting dwellings in potential clearance areas about 200,000 let on controlled tenancies have the basic amenities and require less than £125 spending on repair. About an equal number might be brought up to a satisfactory state, but whether they are so brought up will depend on the success of the policy outlined in the White Paper. On the last part of the Question, I cannot at present add to what is said in the White Paper.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that he is in danger of spoiling a first-class plan by this proposal, which will actually slow down improvement, because of tenants' resistance? Would it not be ridiculous if a tenant actually decontrols himself because he would be putting a bathroom into his landlord's house?

The proposals in the White Paper are there for discussion. One of the matters that has to be considered is the failure so far to get improvements in privately rented houses. That is the problem to which the White Paper has to address itself.

Would the hon. Gentleman admit that these figures are pure guesswork? Can he tell the House how long it will be before the results of a survey, about which he told me in correspondence earlier this year, on the number of controlled properties will become available?

The hon. Genteman is not far off in saying that there is a good deal of speculation in these figures. The survey should be ready by the end of the year, but I would not like to commit myself, because I know how severe the hon. Gentleman will be if I am slightly out.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what financial assistance, other than cheap loans, it is proposed to give local authorities towards the greatly increased compensation they will pay property owners under the slum clearance provisions of the White Paper, "Old Houses into New Homes".

The proposals in the White Paper should not result in local authorities needing assistance beyond that available under the Housing Subsidies Act, 1967.

While welcoming fairer compensation for owner occupiers, may I ask whether it is not clear that the whole burden will fall upon local authorities, who are already having to pay £40,000 or more per acre for land in demolition areas?

The whole burden will not fall on the local authorities because of the subsidy system. Some will be borne by the Exchequer. The high cost per acre mentioned by my hon. Friend includes fit houses, public houses, shops, factories and other buildings of that kind. We have not received any objection from the local authority associations about the kind of burden which would fall upon them. I think it will be moderate and that in most cases local authorities will be happy to accept it.

Is it not a fact that 50 per cent. of all increased costs of local authorities are due to excessively high interest rates resulting from the dear money policy of Her Majesty's Government, which goes on and on and on without diminution?

I am not certain that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question arises from the original Question. Certainly the policy will go on until the economy is sound once again.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will review the law with regard to the overcrowding of dwelling-houses, with a view to giving to local authorities powers to control the problem more effectively.

The White Paper "Old Houses into New Homes" published on 23rd April sets out the Government's proposals for dealing more effectively with the problems of multiple occupation, which include overcrowding.

Is my hon. Friend aware that local authorities are finding increasing difficulty in administering the existing law on multiple occupation due to the technical legal complexities and time-wasting procedures, as they regard them? Would he give this much more urgent attention, with a view to introducing amending legislation?

It is because of the unsatisfactory nature of the existing legislation that we outlined the proposals in the White Paper. If there are any ways in which my hon. Friend thinks the machinery could be improved, I should be very grateful to hear them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many families within the city of Southampton are still living in houses without bathrooms.

Estimates based on the 1966 Sample Census show that about 6,750 households in Southampton were then without the exclusive use of a fixed bath. Specific information on bathrooms is not available.

Do not this figure and similar figures for other authorities indicate that many landlords are not taking advantage of their present opportunities to modernise older houses? If landlords are not: prepared to do it, what plans has the Minister for getting someone else to do it?

I think that that is one of the points which will have to be looked at in connection with the White Paper. As I said in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), it is very important to get co-operation in the private sector.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what advice he is currently giving to local authorities regarding the purchase of properties in advance of requirements where planning blight exists.

My right hon. Friend has urged local authorities to buy in advance of requirements in cases falling outside the statutory provisions where there is genuine hardship.

Is my hon. and learned Friend aware that with the increasing number of road-widening schemes and similar plans large numbers of properties in many of the big cities are suffering from planning blight, and in some cases local authorities are very reluctant to buy in advance of requirements? Will he put some pressure on them?

We have made it clear to local authorities that loan sanction will be available for this purpose in hardship cases. If my hon. Friend has particular cases in mind, I shall gladly look into them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what plans he has for enabling more decisions affecting local authority loan sanction applications to be taken in his Department's area offices.

My right hon. Friend has arranged recently for schemes for the reclamation of derelict land within a limit of £150,000 per case to be settled in the regional offices.

Could not the hon. Gentleman extend this devolution of authority to his regional offices so as to speed up administration?

Facilities in the regional offices have been expanded, but it is too early to say that any extension would result in economies or speed.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what assistance he proposes for domestic ratepayers in 1969–70.

This will emerge after the negotiations with the local authorities on rate support grant this autumn.

Would the right hon. Gentleman give the House a firm declaration that he will not go back on the undertaking given by his predecessor on Second Reading of the Local Government Bill that in the next year the domestic relief would be the equivalent of 1s. 8d. in the £?

The rate support grant has to be negotiated every other year with the local authority associations. It would be a great discourtesy to them to anticipate the result of those negotiations, which will take place in the autumn.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the credit for this great benefit which has been given by the Government is being taken by many Conservative-controlled councils? Would he please make it clear that any stabilising of the rateable value has been brought about by the farsighted legislation of this Government?

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. We are, of course, talking about rate poundage and the House may like to know that the net average increase for domestic ratepayers over the last three years has been only one penny, which I think is a tribute to the Government.

Why will the right hon. Gentleman not answer clearly my hon. Friend's question? Will he acknowledge that if the relief next year does not amount to the equivalent of 1s. 8d. in the £, that will be another Government pledge broken?

I decline to give an answer at this stage because, unlike the right hon. and learned Gentleman, I hate being discourteous.

Then how could it be given on Second Reading?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will give a break-down of his estimate of the total cost of the assessment and collection of Betterment Levy in 1968–69.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Civil Estimates.

Is the hon. and learned Gentleman not aware that the cost of collection over the ensuing year will be 5s. 6d. in the £ as against a revenue cost of 3·28d.? Does this not teach him some lesson or other?

I do not know what the hon. Gentleman means by a revenue cost of 3·28d. If he is referring to the cost of collection of Income Tax, that, of course, is a very cheap tax to collect. There are other taxes, many of them of great social importance, whose cost of collection is much greater. In any event, when a new tax is imposed the cost of collection is always high until it reaches its full effect. For the reasons which I have given earlier, it will be some years before that is the case in relation to the Betterment Levy.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how much land has been acquired by the Land Commission to date.

4·3 acres have vested in the Commission; 14 acres are the subject of a confirmed compulsory purchase order; 450 acres are the subject of draft Compulsory Purchase Orders, and 190 acres at Hornchurch Airfield are being acquired from the Ministry of Defence. Contracts are likely to be exchange, or draft Compulsory Purchase Orders published for a further 2,000 acres within the next two months.

Has the hon. and learned Gentleman any evidence which would lead him to believe that this could not have been undertaken by the ordinary compulsory purchase procedure of local authorities and others who have that right? Has the Land Commission carried out the other half of its duty in selling any of that land for development?

The Commission cannot resell until the land is vested in it, and the figures which I gave show the position there. As to whether this could have been achieved without the Land Commission, the Hornchurch Airfield example is admirable. This is surplus land which is now required for gravel extraction but which will later be needed for housing and schools. Without the intervention of the Commission, it would have been sold to private mineral operators who would later have realised the development value as an uncovenanted bonus. It will now remain in public hands, its benefit will accrue to the Exchequer and it will be possible to bring the land forward for development in a way which is suitable both for the local authority and for private developers.

Can my hon. and learned Friend explain why the Commission is buying the land from the Ministry of Defence? It is already publicly owned, so why is the Land Commission involved?

This, like other land which is surplus to requirements of the Ministry of Defence, has to be sold by them. There is no existing public authority other than the Land Commission which is in a position to purchase it in the present circumstances, for the reasons which I have explained.

Can the hon. and learned Gentleman tell us whether any of the land acquired by the Commission will be sold as Crownhold?

That depends on whether the Commission receives requests for disposals on Crownhold terms.

Has my hon. and learned Friend seen the statement of Sir Henry Wells about the failure of local authorities to zone land in time to enable it to be released for housing development? What is he doing about that?

Yes, I explained to the House at our last Question Time that this was a matter on which the Commission was concentrating. This is, probably, the greatest single factor affecting land prices, and our Ministry is engaged, with the Land Commission, in discussions with local authorities in the pressure areas.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what steps he is taking to ensure the recruitment of sufficient planners to meet the requirements of the Town and Country Planning Bill.

At my right hon. Friend's request, the University Grants Committee has made provision for a substantial increase in the number of university places for students of planning. They expect to see an extra 250 full-time and 250 part-time places by 1972. Additional places will also be available outside the universities.

Will the Minister bear in mind that he needs to secure recruitment from the schools to these extra university places and that his chief planner has expressed concern at the possibility of there not being sufficient planners to put new legislation into operation? Does he feel that these new plans are sufficient for his foreseeable requirements?

We share the concern expressed by the chief planner. It is for that reason that we took these steps and we hope by 1974 to have doubled the number of qualified planners in this country. As for the new planning system, I hope that as a result of it we will make better use of qualified planning staff and reduce the work on detailed matters, because this will tend to alleviate rather than aggravate the shortage of planners.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that the quality of these recruits is of vital importance if the whole operation is to be successful? Would he agree that it is better to wait until we can obtain recruits of the right quality than to rush the process and take in men who may not come up to the highest standard?

I do not see how one can attract more recruits unless one makes places available for them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will seek powers, by legislation or otherwise, to oblige the developers of large buildings to make provision for the preservation of adequate television reception in surrounding areas.

I understand that there are formidable technical problems in establishing the effect of a proposed building on television reception; and I see difficulty in requiring a developer to provide a service on land which is not in his ownership or under his control.

Would the hon. and learned Gentleman accept that this phenomenon of the bouncing of television signals causes annoyance to residents near high-rise blocks? Will he consider the experience in France, where small repeater stations are installed in these circumstances and overcome the problem at small cost?

I would be glad to look into any possible solution of this; problem, but I do not know whether the matter is dealt with in France as part of their system of planning control.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will ensure that adequate technical guidance is made available to planning authorities, and to applicants for the establishment of mast sites, for microwave communication systems on the requirements of such sites; and if he will apply the same limitations of planning control in this connection to nationalised industries as to private applicants.

A circular on planning control of radio masts has just been sent to planning authorities. A copy is available in the Library, and I will send one to the hon. Gentleman. Planning control applies to nationalised industries as to other developers.

I am grateful for that assurance. If the nationalised industries are subject to the same control in this context, why should they not be subject to the same controls as private individuals in other contexts, such as gasometers and so on?

If the hon. Gentleman is referring to the position from the point of view of compensation for statutory undertakers—I gather that he has that in mind by his reference to gasometers—then that matter has been dealt with in the planning legislation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what guidance he gives local authorities as to the desirability of providing lifts in buildings to which the public require to have access, in such a way as to give access for persons in wheelchairs.

The attention of local authorities has been drawn to a pamphlet issued by the Ministry of Public Building and Works on designing public buildings with easy access for disabled people. This deals with the subject of lifts. I will send the hon. Member a copy.

Has there been any change in practice in this respect? Very often, even when a building has a lift, there are steps at the entrance which make it impossible for it to be used by people in wheelchairs.

When giving loan sanction we make a check on the suitability of the building for disabled persons. If the hon. Gentleman has any points, I shall certainly look at them.

Will the Minister take steps to broaden this approach to draw the attention of architects designing commercial buildings, factories and so on to which the public have access, so that they are aware of this necessity also?

I think that the subject has been adequately covered, particularly in the case of a joint circular from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Ministry of Health in November 1965 about access to public buildings for the disabled. But if my hon. Friend feels that there are gaps in the information available, I will do my best to remedy them.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will lay a Use Classes (Amendment) Order listing a restaurant in the Schedule of exceptions to Class I of the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1963.

The hon. Member has let my right hon. Friend have information about the difficulties that gave rise to his Question. We will consider this together with other evidence when the Use Classes Order is reviewed shortly.

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for what he said. Will he consider this very sympathetically? A change of use into restaurants, perhaps on a large scale, can critically alter the environment of certain areas, and they should be within the purview of a planning authority.

Certainly, and I shall be glad to receive any further evidence hon. Members may have on this subject.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what Her Majesty's Government's policy is regarding the recommendations included in the Report on Regional Planning adopted by the Assembly of the Council of Europe in May 1968.

These recommendations were adopted by the Assembly of the Council of Europe only last month and will now be considered by the Government.

Will my hon. and learned Friend give particular attention to the very valuable recommendations on exchange of technical information and to problems related to participation of the general public in planning procedures, which have particular partinence to our problems here?

Yes, Sir, and I am glad to say that in general terms I welcome the report and the recommendations. It may be that we shall have reservations on individual recommendations, but they will be carefully considered and we shall see what follow-up action, if any, is needed.

Will my hon. and learned Friend explain why this body, the Council of Europe, is recommending regional planning of the United Kingdom? Why does not it mind its own business?

I think that when my right hon. Friend reads the report he will see that what it is recommending is regional planning of Europe.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what assistance the Land Commission is giving to reclaiming derelict land in the Northern Region by acquiring suitable sites.

Local authorities in the Northern Region were recently informed of the Land Commission's willingness to acquire on their behalf derelict land suitable for development.

Are there any further steps that can be taken to encourage the more rapid development of work in this field, as there is very wide scope for it? We are very anxious that the Commission should get ahead with this kind of purchase.

We have notified all local authorities that this service is available to them. The local authorities in the Northern Region receive very substantial grant—85 per cent.—for this purpose, but a number of them have been handicapped by not having suitable staff available to deal with the acquisition of sites. It is this service that the Land Commission will be able to provide.

asked the Prime Minister what plans are now under consideration as an alternative to Great Britain joining the European Economic Community.

Can my right hon. Friend give any indication about our present application to join the E.E.C.? In view of the various suggestions which have been put forward by Members and people outside the House for an Atlantic free trade area, have the Government considered the possibility of studying these proposals? Our right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) seems very interested in these suggestions.

As I have already told the House, the Government gave very close study to this as one of a number of possible alternatives before deciding on the application which we put to the House last May.

Is not the Prime Minister aware that a great deal has happened since the Government gave such study as they did to this matter? Will not he improve on the very disappointing approach he has so far made to the possibilities of this imaginative and challenging concept?

It is certainly imaginative and challenging, but we did not take the view that it was an immediately realistic one. As regards our application to join the E.E.C., as we have all said many times we have met with considerable frustration and disappointment, but I am certainly no more pessimistic about the success of that application now than I was a few months ago.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that he appreciates that any flirtation now with so-called alternatives will reduce our credibility in Europe and give ammunition to those on the Continent who have said in the past that we were not interested anyway?

I do not think that there is any doubt in Europe about our very real interest and very real purpose in this matter. As I have said, nothing that has happened in the past few months has caused us to change the recommendation we put to the House, which was so overwhelmingly endorsed a year ago.

Is the Prime Minister aware that some of us think that the challenging concept of N.A.F.T.A. might be a little one-sided in its challenge so far as the other side of the Atlantic is concerned? In view of the ferment in both Western and Eastern Europe, should not we now be a little patient, because the opportunity might arise to build a more flexible European system more satisfactory to British interests?

I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about ferment in Western and Eastern Europe. America has also had to face problems. But it has always been our idea, and I think the idea of many hon. Members, that our joining the Community would be on a basis that we would all hope to get a very outward-looking Community, linking with other parts of Europe and the world.

My right hon. Friend has referred several times to the Government's studies of these alternative policies. Does he agree that as these studies, like others, have shown that there would be considerable economic advantages in some of them but possible political difficulties, it might now be wise to conduct a probe to see whether these political difficulties can be overcome?

I am not sure that in present conditions in Europe or in an election year in America this would be the best time to have a probe, even if I were convinced by the very eloquent propasals in my right hon. Friend's book.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will transfer responsibility for the Government's social survey from the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Lord President of the Council.

No, Sir. The present arrangement has only been working for just over a year and it would be premature to consider a change now before the developments in the Government statistical services, foreshadowed in the Answer I gave on 2nd April to a Question by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton (Mr. Du Cann) are more advanced.—[Vol. 762, c. 75–6.]

Is the Prime Minister aware that the 500 civil servants who work for the social survey have to report to the Chancellor of the Exchequer yet they do surveys for six other Government Departments? Is he further aware that as a result research projects are taking up to three years to complete? When will the Government give real priority to social research instead of merely paying lip-service to it?

We are carrying out the recommendations of the Hey-worth Committee, which studied the matter in great depth. It recommended that the social survey should be conducted for a number of Departments, for example. It would, therefore, not be appropriate for the survey to be attached to all these Departments and for the moment we are proceeding on the basis that it should be under the Treasury.

Since the Chancellor of the Exchequer raises £12,000 million and the way in which he raises it is based at least in part on what he considers acceptable to the people, is it not time that techniques of survey and investigation were used more frequently to discover what is more readily acceptable?

I have no doubt that my hon. Friend and other hon. Members will be giving their advice to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer during the passage of the Finance Bill on what they think will be acceptable and workable, but that is no reason for transferring responsibility for the social survey from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

asked the Prime Minister if he will now make a further statement on the intentions of Her Majesty's Government to assist in achieving a settlement and procuring peace in Vietnam.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answers I gave to Questions on 23rd and 28th May and on 13th June, Sir.—[Vol. 765, c. 862–4, Vol. 765, c. 1530–1, Vol. 766, c. 1433–4.]

Are we ready to help at any moment if called upon? Could we not help by keeping in close touch with the Soviet Union, bearing in mind its success at Tashkent? Are we prepared, if a cease-fire should be brought about, to give all aid possible in medical supplies and other forms in repairing the shattered lives of the Vietnamese people?

I have repeatedly said that we stand ready to help. We are in close touch with our Soviet co-Chairman, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary recently discussed all these matters with his Soviet opposite number, Mr. Gromyko. Of course, we shall be ready to do all in our power to help in binding up the wounds of Vietnam.

Will the Prime Minister point out to President Johnson that since America is the aggressor in Vietnam it has no right to demand reciprocity for stopping the bombing of North Vietnam?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's premise and therefore, I cannot agree with the conclusion he draws from it. As I have made clear repeatedly, this is inevitably a horrible and ghastly war. With the bombing by one side there is also the ghastly shelling of civilians in Saigon by the Vietcong and North Vietnamese in recent days.

Will not my right hon. Friend recognise that, until there is an absolute and unconditional cessation of bombing of North Vietnam by the United States, the Paris talks will make little progress? Will he not urge on the United States Government that reciprocity from the North Vietnamese will only follow and cannot precede the cessation of American bombing?

I am aware that this has been repeatedly stated over the past two years and more by the authorities in North Vietnam. It was one of the great difficulties faced by all of us concerned in getting the parties to the conference table. But now that they are at the conference table it is not for any of us to make it more difficult by saying what will and what will not be acceptable. The important thing is to keep them at the conference table.

Is it not shocking that at the very time the Americans have stopped bombing in the vicinity of Hanoi the Communists should have launched an all-out offensive on Saigon?

I have mentioned that this is one of the factors to be set out on the other side against the serious matters raised about the effect of the American bombing. All this proves the necessity for both sides to recognise that there will be no military solution but only a political solution and that they should get on with their talks.

asked the Prime Minister when he will now visit the United States of America to discuss with President Johnson questions of international liquidity.

As the House knows, I have no present plans to visit the United States, but Her Majesty's Government are, of course, in frequent and close touch with the American Administration on all matters of common concern, including international liquidity.

Would not my right hon. Friend accept, however, that, in view of the vital need for international liquidity, there is urgent need for talks on this matter at the highest level? Would he accept that in this field, as in many others, we have a great deal of common interest with the United States?

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend will no doubt have been glad to see the progress which, although slow for a long time, has recently been made on the special drawing rights and also the progress made at the recent Stockholm conference, when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer represented this country. We are in the closest touch with the United States. I have been in touch at various times with President Johnson and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in very close touch with Mr. Secretary Fowler.

Can the Prime Minister say whether the recent attempts to insulate gold stocks by the Group of Ten against gold speculation are being successful?

I think that the general view of City commentators as well as bankers and other observers is that the two-tier system has got off to a reasonably successful start—perhaps more successful than some pessimists thought. Of course, there have been upsets in the market, not least because of events in France and South Africa. But the United States and Britain are aware, of course, that the scheme depends on both getting their balance of payments into equilibrium as soon as possible.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the international liquidity problem for us is not associated with the drawing rights but with the capacity of this country to absorb short-term assets from abroad into our secondary banking system, which makes us increasingly vulnerable as a nation to trends in the financial world outside?

I have heard my hon. Friend on this subject a number of times, and everyone recognises the vulnerability created for sterling by its being not only a reserve currency but an international trading currency widely accepted and used for trade. One of the most important steps is the efforts being made through the Basle mechanism to deal with the problem of the sterling balances.

asked the Prime Minister what steps he proposes to take to ensure the co-ordination of activities of the Department of Economic Affairs, the Ministry of Transport, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the Ministry of Housing and Local Government concerned with the desk study of the Wash barrage.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government to a similar question by him on 11th April. It will be for the Water Resources Board to co-ordinate the several parts of the study including any undertaken by Government Departments.—[Vol. 762, c. 326–7.]

How can my right hon. Friend justify the spending of public money on an investigation concerned primarily with water when everyone knows that other factors such as port facilities and land reclamation are of the greatest importance? Does not he agree that the time has come to transfer the study to the Department of Economic Affairs?

My hon. Friend has followed this matter from the beginning and has taken a leading part. He has discussed it with me several times and he will be aware that, whatever ambitious scheme might be proposed on some future occasion in relation to this area, it will still be essential to have a study of the water resources, such as that being done by agreement of my right hon. Friend and which my right hon. Friend told my hon. Friend about recently.

But if there is to be a separate study of each of the advantages of this vital scheme, will it not take many years for any Government to reach a decision? Is that the purpose of the Government?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that the original study by the consulting engineers involved an extremely high cost on their estimate, which was very much a speculative estimate, as to what the whole water scheme would involve. For that reason, my right hon. Friend did not feel able to go forward even with the feasibility study then considered, but he has sanctioned a much smaller study and we had better see how that goes.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department at Blackpool on 28th May on prices and incomes legislation represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

asked the Prime Minister if the public speech of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, at Blackpool on 28th May on prices and incomes policy represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

I answered very similar Questions on 11th June, Sir, and fully elaborated my Answer in oral exchanges on 13th June. I have nothing to add to what I said then.—[Vol. 766, c. 27–8, 435–8.]

I have studied those exchanges with care and the Prime Minister did not seem to answer the question. On 28th May, the Home Secretary said that there must not be further legislation on prices and incomes after 18 months. Does the Prime Minister agree that there must not be further legislation or not?

I dealt with this matter fully last week. I said that the policy is as stated by me in my speech to which I referred in my previous Answer and in a public statement. If the hon. Gentleman or any other hon. Member interprets the statement of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary as implying that the options cannot be kept open and that there must be no legisla- tion, the answer is that this is not the Government's policy.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that criminal sanctions are still the central theme of the prices and incomes policy and have now been condemned by the Donovan Report? Will he now not confirm what my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said—that we must not continue this policy after 18 months, even if it has to go on now?

No, Sir. I do not accept the simplification my hon. Friend has put about criminal sanctions. In the second place, the House will have to consider the Donovan Report in relation to a long-term solution to our industrial relations. With regard to the present legislation, I have said repeatedly that we hope that, given success with the three factors I have mentioned, it will not be necessary to introduce further legislation, but I would be wrong to give a pledge that there will be no further legislation.

May I put a new point to the Prime Minister on this issue? He will remember that the Home Secretary said that he believed that a prices and incomes policy was necessary. He said, secondly, that he did not believe it should be compulsory. How can he get a policy agreed, without imposing legislation, if the trade unions will not accept his policy?

The hon. Gentleman has rather over-simplified my right hon. Friend's speech. He certainly agreed, as do nearly all of us in the House, on the need for a prices and incomes policy. He went on to say that he supported the legislation at present before the House. I have explained many times why we feel in present circumstances that it is necessary to supplement the trade union voluntary policy with legislation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some hon. Members on these benches, and I think in other places, regard the speech of the Home Secretary in Brighton as a first-class speech? We agree with the contents of it. Would he extend a bit further this example of private enterprise by members of the Cabinet, so that the members of the Cabinet could disclose occasionally what they really think?

If my right hon. Friend is in full agreement with the speech of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, I find it difficult to understand why he did not vote for the legislation which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary says he supports.

Perhaps the Prime Minister would be willing to say, with his usual precision, whether he endorses the remark made by his right hon. Friend that when the new legislation runs out —[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]

It is a quotation.