asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether the termination of the aid programmes to Tanzania applies also to the operations of the Commonwealth Development Corporation; and what directions he has given to the Corporation with regard to further investment by the Commonwealth Development Corporation in that country.

I understand that the Commonwealth Development Corporation has no new projects under consideration which are likely to involve investment in Tanzania in the near future. I have given no directions on this matter, but the Corporation has undertaken to consult me about any new projects in Tanzania.

While I welcome that what has been started it is presumably the purpose of the Minister to continue, will the right hon. Gentleman see that no new project is started while we have our difficulties with Tanzania?

That is correct. Any project that has been started will continue, but I would find it difficult in present circumstances to agree that the Corporation should begin new investments in Tanzian.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the Arusha Declaration marked a significant breakthrough in concepts about development with its emphasis on self-reliance and its economic importance; and would he not agree that for this reason Tanzania deserves priority in our aid programmes?

I agree with my hon. Friend's views about the Arusha Declaration, but the subject of the breaking off of aid to Tanzania arises on a later Question.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will now make a statement on current market values of farms in Kenya to be bought under the 400,000-acre re-settlement scheme.

I regret that I cannot add to the Answer I gave to the hon. Member on 30th May.—[Vol. 765; c. 2108.]

Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that he promised an answer in May, as his hon. Friend had just returned from Kenya? As the matter is of considerable importance to small European farmers still in that country, will he give it urgent consideration?

I did say on that occasion that I recognised the importance of the matter, but the position is that the British Government's valuer's report was passed to the Kenya Government in May and is still under consideration by them.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what was the value of aid received in Anguilla in the financial year ended 31st March, 1968; to whom it was disbursed; and on what object it was spent.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what aid has been spent in the island of Anguilla in the last 12 months.

In the financial year 1967– 68 almost £30,000 was spent on aid projects in Anguilla, including school buildings and furniture, medical equipment for the island's hospital work on the airstrip. Most of this sum was paid to the Crown Agents for reimbursement of suppliers on behalf of Anguilla; the remainder was paid to the Senior British Official in Anguilla. In addition, a small sum was issued to the St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla Government to cover expenditure incurred under schemes for Anguilla approved in earlier years. In the current financial year a further £10,000 has so far been spent on school equipment and the airstrip.

As there is some concern whether this aid is really reaching Anguilla in the present circumstances, will the Minister consider using the services of Mr. Lee, who is representing us there?

The arrangements for our aid to Anguilla are in accordance with the agreement reached after the visit of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Mr. Chapman) and the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher), and I have no reason to believe that the arrangements are not working satisfactorily.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the aid about which he is speaking is not grant in aid but is of a budgetary nature, and it is that aid that is being blocked in St. Kitts? What do the Government intend to do about that type of aid, and how long do they reckon things can go on without this aid getting through?

The hon. Gentleman is correct about the budgetary aid, but it is still our hope that the St. Kitts Government will make some provision for the current costs of local government in Anguilla.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether he will initiate a study on the possibility of closer integration and co-operation in Commonwealth development programmes.

This was studied at last year's Nairobi conference of Commonwealth officials. The result was the establishment of the Commonwealth Technical Assistance programme run by the Commonwealth Secretariat, in which Britain is participating fully.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that if trade is very important in development programmes, we ought to be looking at ways in which we can apply the traditional Commonwealth trade preference rather than at ways in which we can reduce it?

Yes, Sir. Co-operation in planning of trade terms was one of the subjects discussed in Nairobi.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what he now estimates that the value of the aid programme will be in 1968–69.

The basic programme will amount to £205 million, but, as already announced, there will be three items of aid expenditure which will be additional to the basic programme. It is not possible exactly to quantify these three items, but they might amount to approximately £20 million in the present financial year. Overall aid expenditure is therefore likely to be in the region of £225 million.

Can my right hon. Friend say how much of this figure is taken up with payments such as those for pensions for former British personnel serving abroad, and how soon we shall be able to meet the new target introduced by the last U.N.C.T.A.D. Conference?

On the first point— approximately £12 million. On the second point, it is impossible yet to give a year in which we will reach this target. We are committed by the resolution to use our best endeavours to reach the new target, although we shall have to take account of our balance of payments position.

Would it not be more honourable for us to pay back our own colossal debts first before giving away such large sums of money that really do not belong to us?

To give a full answer to the hon. Gentleman would take some time, but I ask him to bear in mind, amongst other things, that (there are benefits to our balance of payments arising both directly and indirectly from the aid programme.

asked the Minister for Overseas Development if he will state the total aid to Singapore and Malaysia in the current year; and how much of this is for military aid.

We have informed the two Governments that we are prepared to commit this year up to 30 per cent. of the total special aid we have offered to them; that is, up to £15 million in the case of Singapore and up to £7½ million for Malaysia. To date we have made commitments of some £12½ million for Singapore and £7 million for Malaysia, the only amount for military purposes being £127,000 for the purchase of vehicles for Malaysia. Under normal ad programmes we also expect to spend £247,000 and £11,000 on economic and defence aid respectively to Singapore and £2,719,000 and £2,080,000 on economic and defence aid respectively to Malaysia.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that very full reply, may I ask him that, as our military expenditure is to be reduced—and rightly so— civil aid will be increased considerably, particularly the kind which will create employment?

It is for that very reason that the special programme has been announced of £50 million for Singapore and £25 million for Malaysia to be committed over the next five years. Priority will be given by those Governments and ourselves to projects which will create employment in the two countries.

asked the Minister for Overseas Development if he will make a statement about the future of British aid to developing nations through multilateral agencies; and the percentage of British aid to be made available in this way.

As I said in this House on the 7th May, I believe that, over the years, there should be a shift from bilateral aid towards multilateral aid. Last year 11 per cent. of the aid programme went to multilateral organisations; in the current year, I expect the figure to be about 15 per cent. provided the replenishment of the International Development Association goes through as planned.— [Vol. 764, c. 289–90.]

Should not a still higher proportion be taken multilaterally as in Scandinavia, where it is about 50 per cent.? If this were done, would it not avoid, or help to avoid, the kind of unhappy situation we have in Tanzania today?

In the long run, I think more should be done multilaterally, but we have a large number of commitments and expectations in the field of bilateral aid and those should not be discontinued. Any change should be gradual.

Is there any doubt at all that multilateral aid is appreciated as well as direct aid?

From my own experience of meeting people from developing countries and travelling in them, I think aid in both forms is appreciated and very effectively used.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what study he has made of the recommendations of the Fourth Commonwealth Conference on the Use of New Technologies in Education; what is Her Majesty's Government's policy with regard to them; to what extent he will support their implementation; and in what manner.

I have closely studied them. Educational technology is an important element in our educational assistance, to which I recognise, an appropriate allocation from the available resources should continue to be made.

As a guide to the best method of channelling our assistance in this field I initiated expert and independent assessments of the work of the Centre for Educational Television Overseas, and Overseas Visual Aids Centre which my Ministry supports. The reports have now been completed, and are being considered in my Ministry.

May I thank my hon. Friend for that very helpful Answer? Does he agree that education, as he appeared to indicate, is the very fundament to civilised advance? Where he finds it necessary, will he stimulate education with a little extra aid?

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend about the fundamental importance of all development policies of education. I assure him that aid for education plays a very prominent part in the work of our Ministry and that we shall seek to advance it at every possible opportunity.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether, in view of recent difficulties, Her Majesty's Government will now take over the payment of pensions or compensation to former overseas civil servants, which have hitherto been paid by the former Colonies in which they worked.

No, Sir. As my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary informed the House during the Second Reading of the Overseas Aid Bill on 1st July, I have carefully considered the matter but have not felt able to bring about any change of policy.—[Vol. 767, c. 1265.]

In view of the fact that we shall have to give or lend the money anyway to enable our former Colonies to fulfil this obligation, would it not be better for Commonwealth relations to assume the direct responsibility for these payments to our own nationals, many of whom retired to Cheltenham and elsewhere long before the Colonies concerned became independent?

I ask the hon. Member to recognise that the present Government inherited this system from their predecessors—

I know that.

I do not think it is an ideal system but, having studied all the likely effects of making this change, I had to take serious account of the fact that there would probably be a real reduction in the development finance. I believe it is adopting the lesser of two evils to continue the present system.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that every other ex-imperial country has not left the burden to its former possessions but taken it itself? Can we stop calling it aid as it is not development assistance?

I agree that other countries have dealt with this matter differently. If we were starting afresh, probably we would deal with it differently. Most of the countries concerned meet their obligations and have an aid programme which fulfils many functions. If those programmes were reduced there would be a serious effect on those countries. I ask for that to be taken into account.

Would not the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) have the advantage of giving security to pensioners and removing the irritant that overseas Governments were asked to pay for services rendered during the colonial era? Could not the total amount be deducted from the aid programme so that we could balance our books?

It could be done, and I agree that there would be advantages, but I think there would be disadvantages. In the rare cases where there has been difficulty for pensioners, Her Majesty's Government have taken care of them.

Are there any administrative reasons why pensions and compensation should be a first call on aid going to these countries in any case?

The countries concerned in the main have met this obligation. Therefore the point put by the hon. Member does not arise.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the result of his representations to the Government of Ceylon concerning the pensions of widows of former overseas service pensioners.

Our discussions with the Ceylon Government have continued and are now well advanced. No substantive reply has yet been received to our approaches for the sterling value of the pensions to be maintained, but I am hopeful of a satisfactory outcome shortly.

Since I understand the right hon. Gentleman saw the Prime Minister of Ceylon and other Ministers in April and we are now in the middle of July and nothing much has happened, is not this another example of the need for the British Government to take over these obligations, especially as the rupee has been devalued by 20 per cent. and the widows are being paid in depreciated rupees?

I do not think we would be wise to judge the whole global system on the exceptional circumstances in Ceylon, Tanzania or any single country. In Ceylon I hope there will be a satisfactory outcome shortly.

asked the Minister for Overseas Development if he will publish the advice which he gave to the Government of Malawi about their proposals to move the capital to Lilongwe, to build a road along the lake-shore from Fort Johnston to Karonga, and to link the railway system to the Mozambique State Railway system with a view to using the port of Nacala.

Her Majesty's Government have not been asked for advice on these matters.

Is the Minister aware that that certainly seems to conflict with what Dr. Banda is reported to have said in the Parliament in Malawi? Is there not a danger that we have lost out in good will, and possibly contracts, as well, through our apparent disinterest in this particular proposition?

I think some confusion may have arisen in the mind of the hon. Member. An independent mission in 1965 recommended that the Malawi Government's proposal to build a new capital should be postponed, but that was not advice given by Her Majesty's Government, although I think it is known that we agree with the recommendation in the mission's report.

Does not my hon. Friend think that this is not merely an endemic but a mischievous question since Northern Mozambique is in the hands of guerillas the Frelimo, and it takes the Portuguese 47,000 soldiers to hold down the two Northern provinces? Is this not so?

I shall not comment on the supposed implications of that question. All I would say is that the developments referred to in this Question are matters for the Malawi Government.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what consultation was held with British industry before the recent agreement was reached with the Government of Malaysia for committing £6·5 million worth of aid to that country.

The officials who recently visited Malaysia to negotiate the commitments for 1968–69 held meetings before their departure in London with representatives of the Confederation of British Industry and spent their first day in Kuala Lumpur in discussion with British interests there. They held a further meeting before they left to explain the decisions which had been taken and to indicate the commercial opportunities so presented.

The Minister will be aware that these businessmen have made complaints that they were not properly consulted by the Dudley Mission. While that is all water over the dam can he confirm whether British business and industry, both in Malaysia and this country will be given every opportunity to advise on planning and to benefit from actual projects?

I can confirm that and I repeat what I said before, that the earlier Mission led by Sir Alan Dudley, already had consultations with British businessmen in Singapore and Malaysia, and on a number of occasions with British business interests in London with connections there.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development which countries within the Commonwealth are paying out more in pensions or gratuities to former colonial servants than they are receiving in aid from the United Kingdom.

In the year ending 31st March, 1968, only Bermuda and Hong Kong were in this category.

Would the Minister agree that it is wholly unsatisfactory that any Commonwealth country should be in this category? What contingency plans is his Department making in the event of other Commonwealth countries following the perfectly reasonable example of Tanzania, and refusing to accept liability for the pensions of British colonial civil servants?

I do not anticipate that other Commonwealth countries will follow Tanzania's example. It would not be in their interests or ours to do so. For reasons I have mentioned, it would be to their advantage if the present situation continues.

As a former employee of the Government of Hong Kong, may I ask the Minister if he would agree that it is wholly admirable that the Government of Hong Kong does not need aid from this country, but can afford to meet its own pension commitments?

Yes. It is also to be noted that the vast majority of Commonwealth countries have met their pension commitments, whether they are relatively prosperous, like Hong Kong, or whether they are much poorer, as many of them are.

While agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman that the vast majority of Commonwealth countries meet their obligations, and there is no reason to believe that any of them will default, is it not clear, from repeated questions on this subject, that there is anxiety on both sides of the House about the security of colonial pensions? Can he at least say that he has an open mind and that his Department is prepared to look at this again?

We have looked at it a number of times. I have indicated in my earlier replies that there is a lot to be said on both sides of the argument. After careful study I am convinced that the balance of advantage, for the developing countries themselves, lies in not altering the arrangements at present.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Indian Government has been under constant attack by the Communist Party in India for paying out these pensions? Should he not ensure that this matter is discussed at the meeting of Commonwealth Prime Ministers, to take place in London?

I realise that there is a lot of criticism, not only from Com- munists, about these arrangements. These are matters that I have taken very carefully into account. I beg hon. Members to recognise that if we were to make the change there would probably be a cost in terms of actual development and therefore the welfare of the people of the country concerned.

asked the Minister for Overseas Development if he will make a statement on discussions with the Swazi Government over development and budgetary aid and the settlement of the land problem.

We expect to hold discussions in the Autumn about budgetary and development assistance after 31st March, 1969. As was made clear at the Independence Conference in March the land question can, if the Swaziland Government so wishes, be discussed at these talks, in the context of Swaziland's new Development Plan now being prepared.

Is it not a fact that the Prime Minister of Swaziland has requested to come here to see the right hon. Gentleman and the Secretary of State next week in order to discuss these things, and to try to get a settlement before independence? Is he aware that if this is not done there could be grave repercussions on Europeans living in Swaziland after independence?

My right hon. Friend and I would be glad to discuss this matter with the Swaziland Prime Minister. On the claims made by Swaziland, about land alienated in the early years of this century, the Government have made it clear that they do not accept that claim. They think it might be reasonable for Swaziland to include land settlement projects in its Development Plan, which could then be taken into account when the aid is discussed.

While I have no objection whatever to my right hon. Friend lending his good offices to help solve the land question in Swaziland, or any of the other ex-Colonies, is he aware, and are the Government aware, that we have a very serious land problem in this country—rocketing land values, which are one of the country's greatest scandals, which the Government have done nothing to correct.

I agree that it is a problem in this country, but I would have thought that the Government's legislation, setting up the Land Commission, does something about these matters, even if long overdue.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether, in view of the damage done to buildings in Saigon and other Vietnamese cities by recent indiscriminate rocket attacks, he will increase the amount of aid allocated to South Vietnam in 1968–69.

In view of the damage to buildings caused since the Tet offensive in February, we have recently offered to build one or more primary schools in the devastated areas of Saigon, to an approximate cost of £200,000. This is additional to previously planned technical assistance and to the emergency aid grant of £250,000 made in February.

While thanking the Minister for that information on increased aid, is he aware that in May and June alone, 20,000 houses were destroyed in Saigon by rocket attacks? Does he appreciate that helping with reconstruction is a more satisfactory way of tackling the problem of suffering than throwing rocks in Grosvenor Square?

The total provision for aid in my Ministry's Vote for 1968–69 is £600,000, which is three times as much as the disbursement in 1966–67. This is an indication that we are prepared to do more to help in these terrible circumstances.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that during the Tet offensive, the British medical team in Saigon did a fantastic job? Could he tell the House whether he has received any requests from the medical team for further assistance?

I agree very much with what my hon. Friend has said about the medical team which has done a marvellous job for a long period, particularly during the Tet offensive. We have recruited extra members for the team, which now numbers 26 compared with 13 before the offensive. They are working in two refugee centres, as well as in the hospital.

May I endorse what my hon. Friend said about the British medical team? Would my right hon. Friend agree that work of this sort, catering for the needs of the Vietnamese children, is the sort of work in which the allocation of aid will be of the most use in this tragic country?

It is helping in two ways. It is helping to deal with the immediate casualties caused by the war, and other illnesses which would occur anyway, and it is also helping to build up among the Vietnamese a potential enabling the country to deal with children's complaints.

asked the Minister for Overseas Development what projects are in hand or are being considered by his Department in British Honduras.

We are at present supporting 16 projects in British Honduras at a cost, in loans and C.D. & W. grants of £5,370,000. I am, with permission, circulating details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. These do not include technical assistance. The new capital and the airport axe taking up a large proportion of the funds available for British Honduras, but a further 15 projects, costing over £400,000, are under consideration either in London or by the Development Division in Barbados. These include schemes for developing agriculture and for improving educational and medical facilities.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I ask whether he will be certain to see that all these projects are advanced before independence, so that there can be a good start made? Is he aware that this is a very peaceful and loyal country, deserving every support?

I agree with the hon. Lady about the importance of advancing these projects. There has been some delay in the development of the new capital city, but we hope that further progress can be made soon.

In view of the behaviour of Guatemala next door, and her desire to annexe this colony before independence, will the hon. Gentleman do his best to see that it becomes much more stable, and has a much firmer and more viable economy?

One of the main purposes of development aid is to provide the stability to which my hon. Friend refers. The question about the political relationship is not for my Department.

asked the Postmaster-General how much of the telecommunications equipment purchased by the Post Office is manufactured in development areas.

Our contractors estimate that about 70 per cent. of telphone exchange equipment and apparatus is manfactured in development areas. Additionally, about one-fifth of our other telecommunications purchases come from development areas.

That is a very satisfactory figure. Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the development areas will continue to receive a good share of future orders?

Yes, the position is very satisfactory. A lot of Post Office procurement work, at no additional cost to us, I am glad to say, has gone to parts of the country which need it. I gladly give the assurance that this will be continued.

asked the Postmaster-General what part the Post Office is playing in the development of submarine cables.

The Post Office and the telecommunications industry continue to play a leading rôle in the development of submarine cable systems. They have been responsible for the development of the first submerged transistorised repeaters to be used anywhere in the world. The original repeaters of this type were used on a cable between this country and Belgium in 1964. The technique is now being extended to a deep water cable being constructed between this country and Portugal.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that important reply. Will he assure me that good contact between the Post Office and the telecommunications industry will be continued?

Yes, Sir; we are in constant touch with the industry, drawing upon one another's research endeavour. In this particular case, I am glad to say that the Post Office has not only developed the transistorised repeater to which I have referred but is producing it as well. The industry knows about the development which we have been successful in producing, and we very much hope that this close contact will be continued.

Despite what the right hon. Gentleman has just said will he assure the House that the Government are determined to go ahead with the far better telecommunications system by satellites?

Satellite communication certainly has its place, but it would not exclude development of the submarine cable, which in some cases can not only be as efficient but can also be more economic.

asked the Postmaster-General why post boxes in Academy Street, London Road, and King Street, Stranraer, are being removed; and how many new post boxes are being provided to meet the expanding needs of Stranraer.

There is no immediate intention of removing any of these posting boxes. I am having the posting arrangements in Stranraer reviewed to see how future needs can best be met.

Will the hon. Gentleman keep in mind that the population of Stranraer is on the increase and industrial development is increasing, too? Will he see that postal facilities keep pace with this growth in the town?

Yes, Sir; but I remind the hon. Gentleman that there are at present 17 posting boxes in Stranraer and posting facilities there are on a fairly generous scale. We must await the review and see what the outcome is.

asked the Postmaster-General what is the estimated cost of collecting and accounting for stamp duty arising from the Post Office Giro scheme.

No exact figure could be given; in practice, this work will be a small part of the duties of the staff employed on Giro.

In view of the difficulties which the Giro scheme has had with stamp duty, will the right hon. Gentleman join me in urging the Chancellor of the Exchequer to abolish this antiquated and wasteful tax?

I think that the staff running the Giro scheme will be well able to cope with it, but I shall see that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has his attention drawn to the point which the hon. Gentleman makes.

Are we to understand that this tax, which was invented in the reign of William and Mary, is now to be extended in principle where there is no document to be stamped, which hitherto has been an essential feature of the stamp and the duty?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend, who is well aware of all the historical considerations regarding this matter, will take account of the point which has been raised. It is a point for my right hon. Friend to consider, and I shall pass it to him for his attention.

asked the Postmaster-General what planning procedures are observed by the Post Office before deciding on the sites and nature of buildings to be constructed for use for Post Office or telephone services.

The local planning authority is consulted at the outset about any proposed development.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that apparent lack of consultation with local authorities can cause resentment, as happened recently in Grantown-on-Spey, and will he ensure that sound planning procedures are not only adopted but are seen to be adopted?

I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman about the experience at Grantown-on-Spey. In fact, the county council, which is the planning authority, was consulted, and the town council is shortly to have a meeting with officials of my Department.

asked the Postmaster-General whether he is aware that as from 16th September, 1968, the charge for posting the Bournemouth Guide will be increased by approximately 45 per cent.; and whether in view of the effect the increased postal charges will have on holiday resorts he will reconsider these charges.

I am aware of this, but I should not be justified in altering the charges announced. The higher than average increase for the heavier printed papers such as the Bournemouth Guide reflects the extent to which they are at present subsidised by other users of the post.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this will cost Bournemouth Corporation an extra £2,300 a year? As this service has not improved, what possible justification can there be for placing this further burden on the tourist industry?

This printed paper service has been costing other users of the Post Office £7½ million a year and we are determined that there shall be a fair apportionment of charges. The users of this service must be expected to pay the economic price for it. Bournemouth and the other towns concerned cannot expect those who are subsidising them to continue to do so.

asked the Postmaster-General what plans have been formulated to allow the extension of B.B.C. 2 colour television service to Galloway.

B.B.C. 2 colour television service will become available in parts of Galloway when the Caldbeck station opens in about three years' time. Later, coverage will be extended in the area from stations to be built in Kirkcudbrightshire and Wigtownshire.

That Answer will be received with great disappointment. Should it not be the principle of the Post Office to see that people receive B.B.C. 1 first? Has the hon. Gentleman looked into my suggestion that a relay station could be sited in the Isle of Man to bring B.B.C. 1 back to Galloway?

We cannot give every place priority. The principle which the B.B.C. has been following all along the line not only in regard to B.B.C. 1 but in regard to B.B.C. 2 as well is to give coverage to as many people as possible and as soon as possible. That is the course of the operation to which the B.B.C. is trying to keep.

Has my hon. Friend any idea what a television set to receive colour television broadcasts would cost in Galloway, and how many farm workers would be able to afford it?

These are unsatisfactory replies. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, even if colour television was extended to Galloway, very few people would take it, judging by present experience in this country, due to the small number of hours of colour television broadcasting? Does he intend to increase the number of hours?

The hon. Gentleman will have to await the statement which my right hon. Friend will make on this matter. The development of the u.h.f. network is a vast engineering undertaking, and to bring it into operation 64 high-powered transmitting stations must be built, with, in addition, hundreds of relay stations. The whole project is bound to take time to complete.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will make a further statement about the progress being made in the local radio stations experiments now taking place in various parts of the country.

asked the Postmaster-General if he will now state the total amount so far contributed by the British Broadcasting Corporation towards the costs of running local radio stations, over and above the original cost of establishing the stations.

The stations at Leeds and Durham, the last of the B.B.C.'s eight experimental stations, are now broadcasting. The experiment will be reviewed in about a year's time. No further experiments in local broadcasting will be authorised until the present experiment has run its course and been evaluated. The amount of local financial contribution will be considered then. Meanwhile, I shall leave the B.B.C. to get on with the experiment.

I thank my right hon. Friend. Can he confirm his predecessor's assurances that there is no intention of introducing local commercial stations, because of the adverse effect this would have, particularly on local newspapers? Will he also reject suggestions which have been made recently in another place that there should be advertising on Radio One?

I can confirm that I am not prepared to allow any commercial broadcasting. I think that we should allow this experiment to run its full course and make our decisions towards the middle of next year.

If this is so, does the right hon. Gentleman agree with his predecessor's statement on 13th June that he expects that only two or three of these stations will pay their way?

I am not prepared to anticipate the results before I see them myself.

asked the Postmaster-General what automatic dialling equipment is available to telephone users.

At present, no automatic diallers are generally available, although a few telephone users have been trying out some prototype models for us. The first of three types we are currently developing is expected to become generally available early in 1969.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this equipment is most needed by those whom we all wish to encourage, namely, those who trade with foreign countries, and that such equipment has been in use in other countries for many years? Will he, therefore, hasten this process?

Yes, Sir; as soon as the experiment is finished, everything will be taken into consideration.

Can the hon. Gentleman name any other advanced country which is not equipped with this apparatus?

Not without notice.

asked the Postmaster-General what progress he is making with the development of electronic exchanges; and if he will make a statement.

Electronic exchange development is going ahead well and all new small exchanges are of this type. Over 170 are on order and are coming into service soon at the rate of one a week. Those already installed are giving excellent service.

Development of larger exchanges is well advanced and public trials are likely towards the end of this year. These exchanges will take maximum advantage of recent progress in microelectronics technology.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that Answer. In view of its nature and the progress which I have noted today, will he forecast whether the use of these electronic exchanges is to be the ultimate system in Britain?

I would not go so far as to say that. It will form an important part of our Post Office development in the next year or so, but we are at present working on a new system in connection with which we hope to have development trials towards the end of the year.

What is the export potential of this electronic exchange equipment? Is the Post Office still open to the charge of hampering exports, owing to its somewhat over-rigid specifications, as it has been in the past?

I am very keen that in our Post Office procurement policy we assist manufacturers to produce equipment which can be sold abroad as well as in the United Kingdom. I am most anxious that in the development of the electronic exchange we produce something which will have tremendous export potential. We have a development here which is ahead of the rest of the world.

asked the Postmaster-General when the new system of telephone directories proposed for the London area was discussed with the Greater London Council; and whether it received the Council's support.

The Post Office's proposals were sent to the Council in October, 1966, with an invitation to comment. The reply offered no objection, and suggested how the Council's entries should be listed.

Is the right hon. Gentleman ware that on 25th June the Chairman of the General Purposes Committee of the G.L.C. said that no views whatsoever had been expressed on this subject and certainly that no approval had been given?

The Council officials were asked for their views and raised no objection. In the last week there has been very close consultation between my officials and representatives of the G.L.C., and again no fundamental objections have been raised. I think that there has been an attempt to play up this question. Some of this has been a little artificial. In view of the public concern, I have asked representatives, not only of the G.L.C., but of all the borough authorities, as well as of the consumer organisations affected, to meet me next week to discuss the whole proposal.

May we take it hopefully that my right hon. Friend is now reviewing the previous proposals made by his predecessor?

Yes, I am reviewing those proposals and I want to reach a decision which is in the interests, not only of the Post Office, but of all our subscribers.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his predecessor used the expression—"and received their support"?

The proposals did not encourage any objection from the Council. My right hon. Friend, therefore—I think rightly—assumed that they were being supported by the Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will indicate the cost of the special security precautions to be taken on the occasion of the Investiture of the Prince of Wales.

No, Sir.

Why not? Is not my right hon. Friend aware that a good many of us are really concerned for the safety of the Prince, in view of the violence demonstrated by a minority in Wales in recent weeks?

My hon. Friend need not be worried. The overwhelming proportion of the Welsh people will see that the Prince is all right. I regret that I cannot go into the financial details.

asked the Prime Minister whether, in the light of their recently instituted programme, involving the use of enzymes in therapeutic techniques, and their other work related to the potential improvement of health, he will now transfer responsibility for the Microbiological Research Establishment at Porton from the Secretary of State for Defence to the Minister of Health.

These matters are of course kept under review, Sir. But in the Government's view the present balance of argument favours the existing arrangements.

Is the Prime Minister aware that some of us are shaken by the statement attributed to the Secretary of State for Defence after his visit to Porton on Tuesday by helicopter, that he now knows a lot of things about C.B.W. and Porton that he did not know before and that no one had told him before? If this is so, how is it that my hon. Friends and I have been given a stream of Answers to our hundred or so Questions which amount to assurances ever since February? Is it not painfully clear that the decision to keep Porton under the Ministry of Defence was in fact taken at a time when senior members of the Cabinet were not aware of all the facts?

Questions must be reasonably brief.

I would have thought that, whenever a visit of this kind takes place, something is learned from it. All that was needed to take this decision was known. All that had to be known was known when this decision was taken. As I have said, we are keeping it under review. There might well be a case for transfer in the future. I am not closing the door to that at all.

In view of the very nature of the experimentation and explorations which are being carried out at this establishment, and taking into consideration the fact that it is purely defensive, would it not be safer, more efficient and eminently more sensible that it be transferred to the Ministry of Health?

I do not think that necessarily follows from the nature of the work which is done there. I repeat that this matter can be reviewed from time to time, and will be.

asked the Prime Minister what new approaches have been made in London and in Salisbury to a negotiated settlement with Rhodesia; whether he will visit Salisbury; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Prime Minister if he has taken further steps to ascertain in Salisbury whether a basis exists for the resumption of negotiations with Mr. Smith for a settlement of the Rhodesian problem.

asked the Prime Minister what recent approaches have been made to the Governor in Rhodesia by the illegal régime there, with a view to seeking a negotiated settlement based on the six principles; and what response has been made.

I would refer hon. Members to the speech by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs in the debate on the Rhodesian Sanctions Order on 15th July.—[Vol. 768, c. 1203–8.]

Is not the regrettable republican trend in Rhodesia largely due to the Prime Minister's irresponsible involvement of the monarchy in the Rhodesian affairs? Will the right hon. Gentleman talk while there is still time?

If there is irresponsibility, it is because the hon. Gentleman and others have encouraged the racialists in Rhodesia in their path. The hon. Gentleman's reference to the monarchy is totally uncalled for and totally wrong; and if he is referring to the question of the reprieve he will know the answer given by his own Front Bench on that question—a very difficult one for them and for us.

As to talks, there has been nothing to prevent Mr. Smith at any time from going to the Governor and making it clear that he accepts the six principles.

Does not the Prime Minister feel that, before abandoning the attempt to reach a settlement, it would be well, perhaps, to try to find out whether Mr. Smith is irrevocably committed to the new republican constitution or whether he is still open to negotiate on the old basis?

Our experience of Mr. Smith, not only over the last few weeks, but over the last three years, is that in alternate weeks he accepts the six principles and says that he will negotiate, and the following week he supports something as racialist as the constitution which has just been published. The position has always been that we were prepared to talk to anyone in Rhodesia who not merely accepted the principles which successive British Governments have accepted and which the House has accepted, but who had the authority to deliver. One of the difficulties about dealing with Mr. Smith is that he always seems to be thrown over by his racialists when he gets back.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that more repugnant than the trend towards republicanism is the trend towards apartheid in Rhodesia? In the light of recent developments, will my right hon. Friend give a firm assurance to this side at least, and to the country in general, that no initiative whatever will be taken by the British Government to resume negotiations with Mr. Smith?

Any alleged trend towards republicanism has, of course, no constitutional validity. It is, in fact, a proposal put to a particularly racialist-minded party. The trend towards apartheid has been enshrined in recent purported legislation of the Rhodesian so-called Parliament and put into effect. This, of course, has a more practical effect on the living conditions of the Africans, who are prejudiced by it.

Would not the Prime Minister agree that, at the moment, the proposals published in Salisbury are proposals of the Rhodesian Front and not proposals by Mr. Smith's administration? Therefore, in these circumstances, would not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that it is not really the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government constantly to argue about the past but to make a further attempt to keep in contact with the régime in order that these proposals should not develop further, because they are undoubtedly bound to make any possibility of future negotiations much more difficult? I suggest that Her Majesty's Government really will not be forgiven if they allow this situation to run on without making a further serious attempt to see whether a negotiation can be brought about.

The right hon. Gentleman has raised a number of points. He is right in saying that the present status of this document is that it has been circulated by the executive of the Rhodesian Front to the members of the Rhodesian Front. The trouble is that Mr. Smith, when the chips are down, always runs away from the Rhodesian Front, as we well know. This has happened on too many occasions for us to ignore it. To that extent, one must learn from the past.

The problem is what we face in the future. The right hon. Gentleman thought that there was some encouragement in the fact that Mr. Smith got rid of Mr. Harper. But Mr. Smith has shown no signs of proving that he is the boss and that he will not be pushed around by the racialists. We could not accept an agreement which did not fulfil the six principles or take the risk of Mr. Smith or anyone else, because of his popularity, being used as a front man and then being thrown over by a bunch of much more extreme racialists taking advantage of any concessions.

But the door is still open. Mr. Smith is perfectly free to enter it. We have tried to contact him about the publication of the proposals brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) but, of course, Mr. Smith has obviously been very busy in the last few weeks. [An HON. MEMBER: "Get on with it."] I am answering many important questions put by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. I regard his questions as important, even if hon. Members opposite do not. We have not had a reply from Mr. Smith yet. He is free to see the Governor. He sees him quite regularly and there is no reason why he should not give an answer to the questions put to him.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that Britain's best friend in Africa is at present in London and that his analysis of the results flowing from U.D.I. has been a damned sight more realistic than my right hon. Friend's? Will my right hon. Friend also please accept the prime responsibility of the Government for the blood bath that is bound to ensue in Southern Africa from the lack of their own resolution?

I do not accept what my hon. Friend says about responsibility for a blood bath in Southern Africa following upon our refusal to use force to get a constitutional settlement, which is no doubt what he has in mind. I agree, however, that we have a very good friend here in London now. Talks have started, and are going reasonably well. We do not agree about one or two fundamental things, of which this is one, but we can find many other things to agree about.

Is the Prime Minister aware that many of us accepted the wise view expressed by the Leader of the Opposition in December, 1965, that in Rhodesia we were dealing with a régime which had aspects of a police State? In these circumstances, and in view of the opinion held increasingly by a minority in this House that there are apparently no obstacles to negotiating with this enormously liberal régime, will the right hon. Gentleman accept that the majority of hon. Members do not want a sell-out to or appeasement of a racialist régime?

The House will understand that there can be no question of a sell-out or of appeasement. We have stated the position with regard to the six principles time and again. We have not deviated at any point from them. They remain, as they did on H.M.S. "Tiger", the basis for an ultimate settlement. We have to be sure that those concerned can deliver. One of the troubles is that, whenever Mr. Smith is talking of a settlement, he then proceeds to get pushed around by his extremists. But he is not the only party leader to do that.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Mr. Smith said last week that Mr. Harper, whom he dismissed, was on the Left-wing of his cabinet? Is he further aware that the Daily Express Rhodesia correspondent today criticises and condemns Mr. Smith's new constitutional proposals as satisfying not one of the six Conservative principles?

I think that that judgment, from what I have read of the so-called constitutional proposals, is an accurate one. They do not satisfy one of the six principles and I am sure that that fact will be accepted throughout the House. Where Mr. Harper stands within that group of men is not for me to speculate about. I see that it is stated now that he was sacked as a security risk. What worries me most—not only about him but perhaps elsewhere as well—is that a man is sacked on a purely technical offence and then the person who sacks him runs as fast as he can to adopt his policies.

Is the Prime Minister aware that, in his long exegesis of what goes on inside Rhodesia, he has told the House that in no circumstances will he negotiate with any European elected member? That is what he says. It is extremely dangerous. The right hon. Gentleman must realise that this situation is more dangerous while he continues to take this holier-than-thou attitude. Negotiation is needed since, as President Kaunda has told him, his present policy has totally failed.

I have never said at any point, and certainly not today, that I would not negotiate with any European elected member. I have said that we could only negotiate with those who accept the six principles accepted by this House and who have the ability to deliver in terms of getting support from others in Rhodesia. I do not even claim to be holier than the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) claimed to be when he supported the six principles when he was a member of the last Government.

asked the Prime Minister what consultation he is continuing to have with other Common- wealth Prime Ministers to help bring the Nigerian civil war to an end.

There is a continuing exchange between myself and other Commonwealth Prime Ministers on matters of mutual interest, and our efforts to help towards a negotiated settlement in Nigeria are well known. I have been in touch several times with the Head of the Federal Government, General Gowon, the latest occasion being when Lord Shepherd delivered a personal message on my behalf at the end of last month. We have also kept in close touch with a number of other Commonwealth Governments who share our particular concern about events in Nigeria.

One hopes that the O.A.U. meeting will be of some help. Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is mounting anxiety in this country about the number of civilians dying of starvation? Can he report any progress on the air-lift being organised by the International Red Cross to the most stricken areas of Biafra? Will he also look again at the whole position of our continued supply of arms to the Federal Government?

We have kept in close touch with the work done by Lord Hunt and his colleagues, representing Her Majesty's Government, in these last two weeks in Nigeria. I understand that Lord Hunt is returning to report in the next day or two. I hope to have then a full report on the situation in relation to both surface and air routes. Lord Hunt has been concerned not with the politics of the various parties involved but only with the organisation of mercy routes and the supply of food and medicine and he has been dealing with both sides. On the question of arms supplies, I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs has said. I understand that there is the possibility that the House will debate these matters in the near future.

No doubt the Prime Minister is as disturbed as many hon. Members are by the reports of confusion arising among the arrangements made by voluntary organisations for getting supplies to Biafra. Could not the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs or other members of the Government set up an organisation at once at any rate to try and co-ordinate the arrangements which so many voluntary bodies are making to help the starving in Biafra?

That is what Lord Hunt is trying to do on the spot and he is raising these matters with both sides. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman's assessment of the confusion. I understand, however, that a ship chartered by the International Red Cross will sail from Lagos as soon as possible to Calabar carrying 300 to 400 tons of supplies, including the rest of the British consignment from the "Hercules", which has been the source of some confusion. The problem is that this has to be organised by voluntary bodies, and not only Lord Hunt but the distinguished representative of the International Red Cross and the representative of the Save-the-Children Fund has been trying to get order out of the chaos which inevitably follows from the attitude adopted by both sides.

Why will the Government not demonstrate their sincerity in wanting to end the hostilities by immediately stopping the export of all arms to the Nigerian Government?

We are demonstrating our sincerity by trying to get food to those who are starving, and we have done exerything possible—everything a Government can do—towards that end. I only tell my hon. Friend— he may not accept our sincerity—that if we took his advice we should have much less hope even than we have now of getting the food through.

Leaving aside for a moment the continued supply of arms, which many deplore, and the merits between the two sides of accepting that the supply of food and drugs is of the utmost importance, would the Prime Minister consider the possibilities of Fernando Po being used as a supply depot, with both sides asked to supply observers to see that only non-combatent supplies get through in Red Cross planes taking supplies from that source?

These and a hundred other ways of getting around these difficulties have been and are being explored by Lord Hunt. We must wait until he comes back and reports. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman understands the deep suspicion which each side has of the other and which is leading to phrases being used which all of us regard as quite indefensible and to the deaths of many thousands of people. It is not a question of ingenuity being required but a question of will on the part of the two sides to allow one of the many schemes which have been worked out by the Red Cross and other voluntary bodies, and by Lord Hunt and his team, to be put into effect, as they ought to be put into effect immediately.

Does not my right hon. Friend recognise that it is felt not only in Britain but also throughout Africa, Asia and many other parts of the world that it is hypocritical to continue sending arms, on the one hand, and dishing out milk and other foodstuffs on the other hand? Has he noticed that the Belgians have decided to discontinue sending arms to the Federal Government?

My hon. Friend is more concerned with dishing out propaganda. We are concerned with trying to get food through. I certainly do not accept, nor, I hope, does my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), what my hon. Friend said about the attitude in many other countries, many of whom have been sending arms. We have debated this matter many times.

The important thing is to try to get these supplies through. We cannot help to get a single ounce of food into the bellies of the starving Nigerian children by the kind of remark which my hon Friend made.

Will the Prime Minister confirm or deny that a shipload of tanks is being taken from Holland today and that these come from British sources?

I think that the hon. Lady is talking about personnel carriers which it is certainly true are part of the normal supplies which have gone there. But that does not in the slightest degree affect our ability to supply food to the people who need the food. As the House knows, had we cut off the arms supply, our ability to influence the Federal Government would have been lost.