asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of secondary schools and colleges have computer facilities; what proportion have access to computer facilities; and if he will take steps to encourage the linking of secondary schools and colleges to a central computer.

About 10 per cent. of technical colleges have computers and many others have access to computer facilities; detailed information is not available for secondary schools. My Department encourages local education authorities, in planning computer provision at colleges, to bear in mind other educational needs which these facilities might meet.

Does my hon. Friend not agree, however, that there is a tendency for colleges to install computers and to get access to computers rather haphazardly, which may mean that they do not have the machines for the development of their courses? Does she not accept that the need is to provide central processing with terminal facilities in colleges and schools and—

Order. Long questions mean fewer questions.

Would my hon. Friend see whether some help can be obtained from Post Office data processing?

We have a number of experiments going. For example, there is an experiment in the remote use of the university computer which is going ahead in Wales with Schools Council assistance. Similarly, there are experiments in the use of computers in technical colleges. But I remind my hon. Friend that we must be clear about the demand. At present about 100 technical colleges offer facilities for computer study. The difficulty is that we are not getting people from industry to fill the student places available.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now send a circular to local authorities urging them to introduce shift systems in school and colleges to ensure that the buildings and facilities are used for the maximum number of hours per day and days per year.

I have no evidence that shift working is necessary in schools, but school premises are often used for educational, social and recreational purposes outside teaching hours. In colleges of education and further education establishments teaching facilities are in use during the day and evening and the premises are available during vacations for short courses, conferences and the like.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree, however, that the very desirable movement away from part-time day release and part-time courses towards fulltime and sandwich diploma courses in schools is leading to less use of the premises in terms of time, because they are used mainly on a 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. day? Would he perhaps consider using a shift system for some of these fulltime and sandwich courses?

There is no need for shift systems for the schools. As for the further education establishments, I suggest that my hon. Friend looks around a few of them to see how many hours a day and how many days a week they are in fact used.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further proposals he has to increase the number of trained nursery teachers and nursery assistants.

As regards nursery teachers, I would refer my hon. Friend to the Answer given to her on 20th June—Vol. 766, c. 1298–9—and add that one more college has announced a course covering the teaching of both nursery and infant age groups. I shall be consulting the authorities affected by the urban programme about their training arrangements for nursery assistants.

I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would she bear in mind that day training colleges can give courses particularly for teachers returning to teaching, such as refresher courses? Will she also bear in mind the need for the training of nursery assistants, for this could provide for the mature woman working with a trained nursery teacher.

I will bear all those points in mind. I assure my hon. Friend that there will be sufficient people to staff the nursery classes, which we hope will be in operation very soon, under the urban aid programme.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he intends to implement the recommendations of the Plowden Committee on Primary Education that parents should be told of their right to have their children excused from the religious act of worship and from religious instruction.

I have no evidence that parents generally are not aware of their rights, and I do not think that the Council's recommendation is a suitable matter for legislation at present. No doubt this reply will help bring it to the attention of parents.

Is my right hon. Friend aware, however, of the precise terms of paragraph 567 of the Plowden Report, which clearly points out the disabilities which humanist parents suffer compared with non-humanist parents? Will he give an assurance to look again at this paragraph of the Report?

I think that any humanist parent would be well aware of his rights, and I do not believe that there is any problem here. We should also guard against considering everything written in these monumental reports, of which there have been a large number since the war, as being holy writ.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has concluded his discussions with the National Union of Teachers about the introduction of nursery education in the priority areas; and if he will make a statement.

I discussed nursery education with representatives of the National Union of Teachers in July. My colleagues and I have since announced the urban aid programme, in which nursery provision will play a substantial part.

May I take this opportunity of very warmly thanking my right hon. Friend for the steps he has taken towards providing nursery classes? I tender these thanks to him on behalf of those, both inside and outside the House, who have campaigned for many years for this step to be taken. I assure my right hon. Friend that he has taken a marvellous step forward. However, would he bear in mind the fact that children in need of nursery education do not necessarily live in priority areas? Is he aware that we hope that this is a first move in a series of steps towards the provision of comprehensive nursery education for all children aged from three to five?

I agree with my hon. Friend that this is a substantial step forward. It is providing nursery education in areas where it is most needed. I agree, however, that such facilities are needed in other areas as well; and I assure her that we are looking into that matter, too.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made in the provisions of extra nursery education in the educational priority areas.

The first phase of the urban aid programme will enable nursery education to be extended in priority areas in 34 boroughs. The Government propose to discuss with the local authorities associations criteria for identifying areas of special need.

Does the Minister of State realise how grateful are those who are interested in nursery education for this significant advance? Can she say whether this new work is likely to include any teaching by nursery groups, as recommended by Plowden? Further, can she say what steps are being taken to survey and, if possible, measure the social and educational benefit of this new development?

The matters about which the hon. Gentleman has asked me are really matters for discussion with local authorities, and we shall be consulting them as to the best way in which they can deal with this development in the areas selected. As he knows, further areas are to be selected later. I will certainly bear in mind what he has said about a survey.

Whilst I agree entirely with the enthusiasm shown for the provision of this extra nursery education, which is the first advance we have had since the party opposite introduced a ban on nursery schools in 1960, can my right hon. Friend tell the House whether there are any plans under the Urban Development Act to use some of that money for the promotion of help to play groups in the areas before we get the fuller expansion of nursery schools?

My hon. Friend will remember that when my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made the announcement he said that children in general would benefit. The matter of the provision of play groups is not one for my Department, but comes in another sphere.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how he intends to ensure that the right of excusal is safeguarded in schools using the integrated curriculum approach to teaching.

I would prefer to leave this to the good sense of parents and teachers. If there are complaints from parents, I will gladly look into them.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the rights of parents under Section 25 of the Education Act, 1944, could be in danger in schools using the integrated curriculum approach?

This is a genuine problem, because where there is an integrated curriculum subject barriers are broken down. However, teachers show a great deal of good sense in this matter and I suggest that we can safely leave it to them.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many private computer programming schools have made application to his Department for recognition as efficient; and in how many cases has such recognition been given.

One. This is under consideration. I understand that a second school is likely to make a formal application. It is open to others to apply if they wish to do so.

Is that not a disappointing response? Does not the reluctance of these private computer programming schools to submit to inspection by the Department indicate that, with one or two honourable exceptions, they are offering courses and services which are virtually worthless? Can the Department do more to warn potential students that they are wasting their time and money on these expensive courses?

Yes, Sir. I appreciate the great efforts which the hon. Gentleman has put into clarifying the situation for students of computer studies. He will be encouraged to know that the City and Guilds of London Institute is exploring, with a number of computer programming schools, the possibility of establishing examinations which would be nationally recognised. Schools which are recognised by us and those which are not would be eligible; and I hope that that would mean good currency driving out the bad.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the estimated annual cost of the decision to allow school meals to be provided free of charge for larger families.

Approximately £4 million in a full year.

Is it not financial madness to make this provision entirely regardless of parental income? Is the Minister aware that this decision is costing Bromley Council an extra £36,000 a year, which means that if the borough is to adhere to the Government's directives for economy, there will have to be corresponding cuts in other and more essential and worthwhile services?

I will bear in mind the fact that the hon. Gentleman is not in favour of this. If I have anything to announce or any other matter on which to comment, I will do so to the House.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that to entitle the fourth child of any family to free school meals, whatever the child's age, is one of the most important ways adopted by the Department to get over the disabilities which pupils felt in the past about having free meals?

I appreciate that there are differing opinions about this. Meals would be available free to children who are in need, in any case. This is a matter which we must keep in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is satisfied with the operation of his recent scheme for free meals in schools; and if he will make a statement.

I have this matter under constant review.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that children of several parents who could perfectly well afford this meal are getting it free, whereas some who genuinely cannot afford it are not getting it under present conditions? May I welcome this statement that he is looking into it?

I did not say that I was looking into it specifically. I said that I kept this matter constantly under review. If the hon. Gentleman knows of any children who ought to be getting free school meals, perhaps he would let me know. We have taken a considerable number of steps recently to bring this to the notice of parents.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what educational qualifications are required of the persons concerned before his Department registers an independent school.

None, Sir. But if, after the school has been inspected, I am not satisfied that efficient and suitable education is being provided, a notice of complaint is served on the school. If the matters complained of are not put right within a specified time, then, subject to appeal, the school may be struck off the register.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Would she agree that the standards of independent fee paying schools, particularly at the primary level, vary enormously? Is it not about time that we insisted on certain educational qualifications being held by people who set themselves up to charge fees for this type of education?

I agree that standards vary, and that is why we are at present taking steps to raise the general standard. My hon. Friend will be aware that the Plowden Committee recommended that head teachers of all independent schools should be qualified. We have already made an announcement to the effect that we are in favour of this; but it would, of course, require legislation.

What period usually elapses between the time when a new independent school is set up and the place being inspected by Her Majesty's inspectors?

I cannot give the precise time. As soon as we receive an application for registration we see that an inspection takes place as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why he has now cancelled school-building projects previously approved by him.

The major programmes for 1968–70 had to be recast when the resources for school building were reduced following the postponement of raising the school leaving age and the withdrawal of the associated building allocations. As a result, some projects previously authorised to start in those years or earlier are being deferred. If we had not controlled the backlog of unstarted projects, we should not have kept within the expenditure limits fixed for this year.

As the three projects in the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames mentioned in my Question of 25th July were required to deal with schools which are already overcrowded and obsolescent and had nothing whatever to do with the question of raising the school leaving age, will the Minister look at these projects again on their merits?

Of these projects, one was in the 1966–67 programme and one was in the 1967–68 programme. If they had been regarded as being so urgent by the borough of Kingston-upon-Thames, that borough could have started on them at any time up to 31st March of this year.

Has not the right hon. Lady made a damaging admission? Is she not aware that there have often been perfectly good reasons why in the past projects have not been started in the year for which they have been approved? Is it not a serious matter now to withdraw a project for which approval was given some years ago?

The right hon. Gentleman will recall that we had several debates on this issue. Both he and I took part in them, and those discussions on at least one occasion went on into the early hours of the morning. The fact remains that, in spite of the withdrawal of the raising of the school leaving age money, more school building is going on now than at any time in our history.

In view of the wholly unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek at an early opportunity in the new Session to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has so far been the cost to public funds of the Newsom Committee on the Public Schools; and what further expenditure will be incurred by the future activities of this body.

The cost of the First Report of the Public Schools Commission was about £52,000. I cannot estimate the cost of the Second Report.

Does that figure include the research work done for the Commission after it had already decided on the main lines of its recommendations? Would not this money have been much better spent on rebuilding obsolescent schools in the borough of Kingston-upon-Thames?

That depends on the right hon. Gentleman's social priorities.

Hear, hear.

I would have thought that getting rid of one of the most divisive factors in our society was a matter for very high priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now use his powers as Charity Commissioner for Educational Charities to ensure that the public schools conform to those charitable purposes for which they were founded.

No, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Part 2 of the Report of the Public Schools Commission has disclosed that the charitable purpose of Eton College is to provide a school for children of good character and decent life who are poor and needy? Since the College has been disregarding its charter for many years, will my right hon. Friend respect the pious intentions of the founder and divert this endowment to the deprived primary schools in priority areas?

I was very interested in this Question and took great trouble to look into it. I find that under the Endowed Schools Act, I have certain powers as Charity Commissioner for Educational Charities, but my powers are limited to taking action which is conducive to the advancement of learning. If I accepted my hon. Friend's proposal, I would insist that only Latin and grammar were taught at these schools, but I do not think that this would be regarded as being conducive to learning.

Will the Secretary point out to his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Christopher Price) that things have changed since the time of Edward VI?

And I hope that in the near future they will change a good deal more, too.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress he has made in his investigation into the diploma course and entrance qualifications for colleges of art and design.

A joint committee of the National Advisory Council on Art Education and the National Council for Diplomas in Art and Design is examining the structure and content of art and design education in the light of the very wide range of submissions it has received in answer to a general invitation to those concerned, including students and staff, to give their views.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that there is some urgency in geting on with this review, since it is to the credit of the students at Guildford and Hornsey that what they complained of was their curriculum; and that if something is not done about it quickly now we shall have more trouble again this year owing to the intransigence of the two local authorities involved.

The new Working Party is well aware of the urgency, but my hon. Friend will appreciate that if it wants to take evidence from any student, member of the staff and local authority wishing to give evidence it really cannot act extremely quickly. I understand that over 70 submissions have already come in, and a number are coming in at the present time.

Can the Minister say when she expects this report to be received? Is she aware that many of us, without necessarily associating ourselves with the comments of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Christopher Price), feel that there is some urgency particularly in regard to the relationship, for example, between the fine arts and graphic art, and the feeling that art education is in a serious need of very rapid overhaul?

I agree that there is much in art education that deserves careful review. I repeat that Sir William Coldstream, the Chairman of the Working Party, is well aware of the need for the most urgent action possible, but I would stress that unless people recognise the time given for the end of receipt of submissions, which was the end of July, it is difficult for Sir William to keep a timetable. Other people must help him to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in the discussions on the single school-leaving date; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend, the First Secretary of State, has completed consultations with both sides of industry and reactions were, on the whole, favourable. I hope to make a further statement shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has now received from the London Borough of Ealing regarding the future of secondary education in that borough; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what revised plans have been submitted to him from the London Borough of Ealing to promote comprehensive secondary education within the whole of that borough; and if he will make a statement.

I am awaiting revised proposals from the authority.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are now extant proposals to merge Walpole Grammar School and Southall Technical Grammar School in Ealing; and that this has caused immense disquiet to parents, pupils and staff—so much so that it was given prominence in the front page of The Times this morning? Would she agree to having an inquiry into the proposal, which is nothing but a compound of botchery and butchery?

There is a Question about these particular schools later in the Order Paper. As yet, I have had no proposals, and my hon. Friend can rest assured that if schools are to be closed they will be subject to public notice and submission under Section 13 of the 1944 Act.

Does not my right hon. Friend see that what is going on in the London Borough of Ealing in secondary education, and particularly in the stand-back of comprehensive school development in my part, in the Southall constituency, results from the quite wanton and callous Tory political jiggery-pokery in the area? Does not that reinforce the necessity for further legislation to deal with the problem?

I regret that the scheme which had been submitted was withdrawn but, as I say, I await the scheme which is to come from the London Borough of Ealing.

As my constituency also falls within the London Borough of Ealing, may I ask whether the right hon. Lady would not agree that the previous Minister of Education was quite right to reject the proposal by the then council, which really was botched up comprehensive education, and does she not welcome the approach made by the new council, which is based on educational needs and not on political dogma?

At the time the council changed hands, my Department was in the process of discussing with the London borough of Ealing the reorganisation of secondary education. As the hon. Gentleman knows, these proposals were then withdrawn but I hope that we shall get a scheme from the London Borough of Ealing which is comprehensive, and which does not preserve the grammar schools as they are now.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consideration he is giving to the proposal of the London Borough of Ealing to change the character of two secondary schools and to amalgamate two grammar schools.

I have received no proposal of this nature from the Authority, but such a proposal would need to be submitted under Section 13 of the 1944 Education Act, as amended. It would also need to be the subject of public notice.

When my right hon. Friend considers these proposals, will she bear in mind that they are directly related to the stand-back of comprehensive education previously referred to at the Southall end of the Borough? Will she also bear in mind that part of these proposals might mean racial, segregational policies? Will she, particularly, agree to undertake to look hard and long at these proposals?

We have not yet received any proposals but when we do I will certainly look into all aspects of them.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what investigations are currently being undertaken by the University Grants Committee into the efficiency of the use of university buildings; and if he will undertake to publish the findings of such investigations.

The main investigations into progress are being conducted by the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals. The University Grants Committee is associated with research projects at University College, London, and Southampton University, and has made studies of the use of catering facilities. For the purpose of the costing of new buildings and of their examination of development plans, it is also studying patterns of the use of premises and standards of accommodation. Some of its conclusions are reflected in the recommendations in its publication "Non-Recurrent Grants: Notes on Procedure".

I welcome my hon. Friend's assurance that some investigations are taking place into this aspect, but would she accept that my concern is not so much with catering and that kind of thing as with the use of laboratories and the enormously expensive facilities in buildings put up for science and technology? Could she impress on the U.G.C. and the Committee of Vice-Chancellors the urgent need for detailed investigation into this aspect?

I recognise my hon. Friend's great interest in the subject. I wish that he had asked the question of the Vice-Chancellors' Committee, because that Committee is at present undertaking studies into the utilisation of general purpose teaching accommodation, including the utilisation of laboratories in science and technology, and university refectories.

Would not my hon. Friend accept that the university authorities would look at the problem much more sympathetically if they were not perpetually suffering from Government stop-go policy about university buildings?

My hon. Friend knows better than most hon. Members that in the Order Paper there is another question on that matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received from teachers and trainees in schools under his authority for improved salaries, pension rights and conditions; what reply he has sent; and what action he proposes to take.

I receive representations from time to time from teachers and others on all aspects of teaching service.

What steps is the Minister actually taking to make the remuneration of teachers comparable with the high cost of living in this age and to enable them to make children fit to live in this age of culture, learning and technology?

As my hon. and learned Friend is probably aware, teachers' salaries are negotiated in the Burnham Committee. A claim was formally presented last Friday and is now under consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to encourage the study of Russian, mid-European and Asiatic languages in schools with special relation to their professional, business and industrial uses.

The Schools Council is conducting a large scale curriculum development project in modern languages including Russian. There is also a Committee on Research and Development in Modern Languages which examines the need for research and development and stimulates them where necessary. The demands of industry and commerce for skills in particular languages are taken into account.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will she recognise a further aspect of the age in which we live, which is an international age? What steps is she taking to enable children to become fit to live and work in this international age?

I can assure my hon. and learned Friend that that is precisely what we are doing.

Can the right hon. Lady tell the House whether the Council's terms of reference include inquiries into the supply of teachers of Asiatic and Slavonic languages as well?

I could not answer that without notice. Perhaps the hon. Lady will put down a Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what criteria govern the Arts Council's policy towards grants to amateur organisations.

The Arts Council gives grants to amateur choirs and music societies for employing professional soloists, coaches and conductors; and to one or two youth organisations of national significance. In this last category the Arts Council has just decided to give a grant to the National Youth Theatre.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that such a decision by the Arts Council will be widely welcomed but that there is considerable confusion, which is what has led me to ask this Question, because it has taken the National Youth Theatre such a long time to get any grant out of the Arts Council?

The Arts Council must naturally be very careful before assisting an amateur organisation, because its job is to sustain the best in the arts and make the best more generally available. But it will be found that if, for instance, there is an ambitious youth musical group which engages professionals, it will try to help it in these special circumstances.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made with the formation of a Southern Regional Arts Association.

A constitution was adopted in October, and a Director has been appointed who is expected to start work in January 1969. One of his first tasks will be a survey of the needs of the arts in the region.

May we have an assurance—I am sure that we may—from the right hon. Lady that her Department will give every possible assistance to try to get this regional arts association off the ground?

We are most eager to do so, and so is the Arts Council. Everyone is trying to be helpful.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why in East Anglia only 39·7 per cent. of 15-year-olds stay on at secondary school as compared with 46·6 per cent. nationally.

Facilities for pupils to remain at school beyond the statutory leaving age exist in East Anglia as elsewhere. I could not say why more East Anglians exercise their right to leave. In recent years, however, staying on has been increasing more rapidly in East Anglia than in the country as a whole, and this trend is likely to continue.

Has my right hon. Friend noted that in its Report the East Anglian Planning Council states that it knows why this happens? It suggests that it is because of the limited opportunities which are available in the rural primary schools, particularly in Norfolk.

There is another feature. My hon. Friend will be interested to know that in 1966–67 a higher proportion of those aged between 15 and 17 were in fulltime further education in East Anglia than in any other region—5·74 per cent. compared with the national average of 4·25 per cent. That shows that many of the school leavers in East Anglia are going on to further education.

Will the right hon. Lady bear in mind that in many cases there is a need for some accommodation for those wishing to take further education in East Anglia who have to travel considerable distances to the seats of education which they attend?

That is another question, but I will look into it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to designate an East Anglian college as a polytechnic.

There are no proposals at present for the establishment of a polytechnic in East Anglia.

Has my right non. Friend taken note of the recommendation of the East Anglian Planning Council that the situation should be reviewed after five years and stressing that it is essential, in view of the future industrial development which will certainly take place there, for this polytechnic to be provided?

Yes, Sir. At the time of the establishment of the polytechnics the regional advisory councils were asked for their advice. The East Anglian Council advised that there was ground for the establishment of a polytechnic in Ipswich because of the expected expansion of the area. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, this was in anticipation and we have already agreed that we will review the situation in the light of developments in the Ipswich area.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will institute a survey of the nutritional effects of the ending of free school milk supplies to secondary school children.

The Chief Medical Officers' Committee on Medical Aspects of Nutrition has already initiated a survey of the nutrition of school children in Kent. In addition, the normal school medical records will enable any significant trends to be detected.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is she aware that many secondary school children leave home at about eight in the morning and do not get home until after six and have no opportunity for proper refreshment other than a school meal during the day? Is she aware that this would not be tolerated in industry and will she urge schools to provide adequate catering facilities for this lengthened day?

My hon. Friend has a point. Many secondary schools provide facilities for children to buy the kind of refreshment they need. My hon. Friend will know that when there was free milk for children in secondary schools more than 40 per cent. of the children did not take it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will set out in tabular form the major building programmes for primary and secondary schools in each of the years 1965–66 to 1968–69 at both current and constant prices, and the amount in each programme devoted to basic needs and replacements and improvements, respectively, at both current and constant prices.

With permission, I will do so in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. Lady satisfied with the trend in the improvement factor, which is the best indicator of progress? If not, will she say what steps she is taking to make it more favourable?

I am not sure that I get the gist of the hon. Gentleman's question. I have given him a very long Answer. Perhaps he will look at it and then raise the matter again.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the distinction between basic need and replacement is often inexact and sometimes unreal and has acted against the inner areas of big cities for many years? Will she look at

I am well aware that it has acted against the big cities, because my constituency has suffered very badly from it, but I think that my hon. Friend will recognise that we must give first priority to the provision of providing schools for those children who would otherwise have no school, for example, those in areas of new population. But we have made a start this year with the educational priority areas and both my right hon. Friend and I would like to get on as fast as possible with replacing some of the very old schools.

asked the Secreatry of State for Education and Science what readjustment of priorities he is contemplating as between primary and secondary schools and higher education.

The proportion of total resources devoted to schools and higher education must depend to a large extent on the growth in numbers of pupils and students. Nor must we overlook the claims of further education generally. In the last four years schools have accounted for just over 60 per cent. of total expenditure on the three sectors; and expenditure on primary schools has increased a little faster than expenditure on secondary schools. Expenditure on school building will continue to increase and the capital programme for universities has been very substantially reduced.

Is that what the right hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend had in mind when she made a reference to this matter in a speech, from which I cannot quote at Question time, in the House at the end of July, or did she have further steps in mind when she made that announcement?

I am sure that there is perfect harmony between my right hon. Friend and myself on this and all other matters.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why the recent cuts in university building ordered by the University Grants Committee have not been made public.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the value of university building work which has been stopped following the University Grants Committee letter to vice-chancellors in August 1968.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what changes in the economic situation between January and August 1968 necessitated further restrictions being placed on the University building programme.

Following their normal annual review of public expenditure and probable future calls on their resources, and not because of changes in the economic situation, the Government asked for the universities' building programme for 1968–69 to be reduced. The U.G.C. informed universities of this on 1st August. After consulting all universities, the Committee sent them revised programmes, reduced from £28·7 million to £18·7 million, on 26th September. No building work in progress has been stopped. It is not the Committee's practice to publish its communications to individual universities; but universities themselves are free to do so where, as was the case here, the letters are not confidential, and most did so.

While clearly understanding the confidential nature of the communications between the U.G.C. and individual universities, does the right hon. Gentleman not feel that it was, to put it mildly, unfortunate that such a major change in policy should not have been publicly announced, so that we could all form a judgment upon it?

How the £10 million was saved was for the universities. The U.G.C. decided this and wrote to the individual universities.

Can the right hon. Gentleman offer any hope to universities that there will not be another setback in their plans, at least before the end of this decade?

The universities have done extremely well over building. I understood that it was the policy of the party opposite to change the priorities of education to give a greater priority to the primary schools. I have been indicating that this is precisely what the Government are doing.

Was it not a very extraordinary thing to reduce the university building programme by that very high percentage, by £10 million, a week after Parliament had risen, with no statement by the Government? Secondly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, when we have talked about priorities this year, we have always been assuming existing progress? Is he aware that we feel that this was a very serious decision, to cut university building programmes by a further £10 million at a time when the universities have not yet fully recovered from the moratorium imposed in 1965?

The cut here has been in starts, fees and so on, which would save about £1 million this year, not £10 million. The right hon. Gentleman is more aware than most hon. Members of the need for a continuing review of public expenditure. This is what occurred here.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many pupils will be added to secondary school rolls as a result of raising the school-leaving age in 1972–73, and assuming a single school-leaving date.

The current estimate is 287,000. With a single leaving date this figure would apply throughout the school year 1973–74.

Does this not emphasise the need for an early statement by the Government about the school building programme for 1970–71? Can the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will make an announcement about this before Christmas?

I would not like to be tied to making one before Christmas. I fully realise the urgency of this, and intend to make a statement, not only on the building programme, but about the whole process of raising the school-leaving age. I have this very much in mind and will do so at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of school leavers with two or more General Certificate of Education "A" levels entered university in 1956, 1962 and 1967.

An estimated 69 per cent., 47 per cent. and 50 per cent. of school leavers with two or more "A" level passes entered universities in 1956, 1962 and 1967 respectively. The numbers doing so were about 18,000, 22,000 and 35,000.

Does not than Answer lend additional support to the concern expressed in previous Questions about restrictions on the university building programme? Is not a very serious situation about to face both universities and pupils trying to enter them, unless the Government speedily review their university building programme policy?

Independent commentators in the educational sphere have pointed out that, because of the Government's response to the need to expand university places, there is less competition, or less intensive competition to get in now than there was in 1962. The figures that I have given have shown that this is so. It is, however, the case that the universities are hoping to maintain a rate of expansion which will bring them at least 20,000 beyond the Robbins target for 1971–72, regardless of the cuts which have been recently made in university building expenditure.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will pay an official visit to this autumn's meeting of the United Nations.

I have no plans to do so, Sir, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs was in New York from 7th to 15th October and addressed the General Assembly on 14th October.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that there is widespread respect throughout Britain for the work carried out at the U.N. by the noble Lord, the Minister of State, but will my right hon. Friend also accept that one of the best ways of demonstrating our commitment to the United Nations is a personal visit by the Prime Minister whenever possible?

I have made very many visits there, not always when the Assembly was sitting. I did address the Assembly on one occasion, although I am sorry to say that some of my African friends greeted that with a walkout, because of our refusal to use force in Rhodesia. Certainly I keep in very close touch with the Secretary-General, whom I see whenever he comes to this country. I like to visit the United Nations whenever I can.

Whoever it is who speaks for Her Majesty's Government at the autumn meeting of the United Nations, would the Prime Minister give an assurance that it will be made abundantly clear that the Government do not subscribe to the views expressed about Rhodesia in the latest manifesto of the United Nations Association?

As to our responsibilities for those who speak for us at the United Nations, my noble Friend, Lord Caradon, has the fullest confidence of the Government, and I think of both sides of this House. As to the United Nations Association, I applaud its enthusiasm, but somewhat regret its sense of direction. On the point raised in the statement issued by the leadership of the U.N.A., the Government's position is well known and has been repeatedly stated in this House.

Has my right hon. Friend observed that recently suggestions have been made by several hon. Members, one that he should go to India, another that he should go to Australia, another that he should go to Russia, and I believe, the suggestion was made that he should also go to Peking. Does he detect anything sinister in this?

No, Sir. I always take these proposals in the spirit in which they are made. There will be plenty of time over the next few years to visit all these places.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will appoint a Minister to answer Questions on matters involving Her Majesty's Government's responsibilties in Northern Ireland.

My right hon. Friends and I already answer Questions on those matters relating to Northern Ireland which engage our Ministerial responsibility.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a great number of British people cannot see the equity of being taxed to heavily subsidise the Stormont Government while apparently being unable to redress grievances in that country? Will the Prime Minister, therefore, immediately set up a Royal Commission which will unemotionally and impartially investigate allegations, and rectify any abuses that exist?

I should like to consider what my hon. Friend has said. The frustrations that he has mentioned are among the subjects which I shall be discussing, together with the Home Secretary, with Captain O'Neill when he comes over in a few days' time.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the British Broadcasting Corporation television on 15th July on the economic situation represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government.

Yes, Sir.

Thank you.

asked the Prime Minister what progress he has made during the past three months in reaching an agreement with the Rhodesian Prime Minister on a constitutional settlement.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will now seek a meeting with Mr. Smith in order to secure settlement of the Rhodesian problem on the basis of the Six Principles.

I have nothing at present to add to the speech I made in this House on 22nd October.

Would the Prime Minister reaffirm that Rhodesia is a problem for the United Kingdom, and will Her Majesty's Government make it clear that it is not for the United Nations or any other Power to obstruct a settlement and the ending of sanctions against Rhodesia?

I confirm what I have said many times, that while this is a matter for the United Kingdom and the responsibility of this House, it is a matter of deep international concern because of what has happened over the last few years. With regard to the question of sanctions, if that is what the hon. Gentleman has in mind, I have nothing to add to an Answer which I gave to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Edward M. Taylor) on 15th October.

My right hon. Friend says that he has nothing to add to the statement which he made earlier. Will he recall that on that occasion he did not deal with the matters arising from the forms of intimidation and threats that are being operated in Rhodesia against citizens for whom we are responsible and which were described by the Prime Minister following his return from "Tiger"? Will he undertake, before we have any further dealings with this régime, to describe how these police state methods are to be stopped so that people in Rhodesia may have the right to express their feelings freely on the proposals?

My hon. Friend is wrong. I dealt with this question. I am totally opposed to intimidation, from whatever source it comes—I have said that on a number of occasions in relation to Rhodesia—whether from nationalist pressures, some of which are genuine, sincere and democratic, others of which are operated in a highly undemocratic way, or from within the regime or police forces associated with it.

Can the Prime Minister yet say when he is likely to be able to give an indication to the House or publicly about his own views of Mr. Smith's reply and whether or not the Minister without Portfolio is going to Salisbury?

Not immediately. The House will recognise that we must have adequate time to study the reply which has been received. As soon as we are in position to make a statement to the House, it will be made.

asked the Prime Minister which Minister is responsible for the issue of flood warnings to the general public.

In England and Wales, flood warnings are issued to the general public by the police on advice from river authorities. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has primary responsibility because of his concern for the flood protection activities of river authorities. In Scotland, the local authorities are responsible for the warning systems and the initial warnings come from sources such as the Hydro-Electric Board; Ministerial responsibility in Scotland rests with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that at the time of the last floods information was available in various people's hands and significant warning could have been given which would have enabled people to take their furniture upstairs? The difficulty is that there are about four Departments involved. What we want is the coordination of information so that it can be used, and to do this one Minister is needed to knock the organisation into shape.

I am afraid that there are different responsibilities, and this was shown by the very prompt reaction made at the time of floods in the South-East. I dealt with this matter at some length during Question Time last week, and I said that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government was taking up with other Ministers, with the police, with river authorities and everyone else concerned the steps which need to be taken as soon as water piles up in one area of a river authority to ensure that a warning is given right down the line, which is what my hon. Friend is concerned about.

Would not the Prime Minister agree that the experiences resulting from the flooding during the summer illustrate the crying need for a civil emergency force? Why will he not assist the volunteers who are prepared to do this sort of work at no cost to the taxpayer?

My impression was that the reaction of the local authorities—and I am thinking particularly of the most recent cases in the South-East—and the speed with which the service departments were able to operate on the invitation of the county authorities concerned showed a very fine and flexible response. The suggestion which the hon. Gentleman has in mind might slow down rather than speed up the work.