asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is satisfied with the standard of meals in hospitals; and if he will make a statement.

Catering standards generally have been improved in recent years but I am sure that there is still room for further improvement in some hospitals.

Does the Minister realise that some hospitals are certainly not up to standard? One of the most important things to get a patient healthy and strong again is good wholesome British food. Will the Minister look into this matter and see that this is so?

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman's conclusions. But undoubtedly there have been improvements. Far more hospitals today have a choice of menu. Much more training is being done concerning catering officers. If the hon. Gentleman has any particular point that he wishes to bring to my attention I will look into it.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is satisfied with the contract system of buying raw food materials in our hospitals; and if he will make a statement.

The contract arrangements for raw foods vary between hospital authorities. Purchasing prac- tices will be reviewed as part of the general reorganisation of hospital supply arrangements now being planned.

Surely the Minister will agree that large-scale contract buying can produce lower quality food when it is purchased. Does the Minister agree that a catering officer is the proper person to deal with this problem and to buy particular food for particular hospitals?

There already is consultation between supply officers and catering officers. There is no doubt that we get more value for money when certain commodities can be bulk purchased. This is so far proving to be very satisfactory. As I said, we are looking at the extension of this practice in other directions.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he now expects phase two of the development of Hospital of St. Cross, Rugby, to be carried out.

No precise date has been assigned. The regional hospital board is at present reviewing its programme.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Birmingham Regional Hospital Board has pushed this programme so far back that it has now virtually disappeared? Will he tell the board to take its hands of Rugby's medical services, unless it wants real trouble?

Some of us have broad shoulders and, perhaps, the board will look at it in that light. I remind my hon. Friend that certain changes are taking place in the distribution of services in the Rugby area as a result of the opening of new hospitals elsewhere. The size of the population which should be served by a district general hospital has yet to be determined.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the Government's policy on the law governing organ transplant operations.

I have this matter under consideration but I am not yet ready to make a statement.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the need for clear and well drafted legislation on this subject is pressing and urgent? Is he aware that if he is not prepared to act I shall seek leave to introduce a Bill myself?

That is a threat which I contemplate with equanimity. The hon. Gentleman ought to realise that this is a matter on which there is a strong minority opinion which has to be carefully considered. I would have thought that, with this kind of new development, a little caution would be good even for the most brilliant academics.

Did my right hon. Friend observe that it was previously suggested that he had a brilliant academic brain? Could not that be transplanted to the hon. Gentleman opposite?

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in the last Session a piece of initiating private Members' legislation, backed by all parties in the House, six doctors and six laymen, passed through First and Second Readings and Committee stage and was frustrated only by lack of time? Will he examine those proceedings with a view to renewing them in the forthcoming Session in that area of organ transplant surgery which has alone proved wholly successful to date?

The hon. Gentleman will be surprised to hear that I spent some part of Sunday studying those proceedings with very great interest. They confirm me in my view that this is a very complicated and difficult matter. I would prefer to legislate adequately rather than inadequately. If the hon. Gentleman has any success with his Bill again, I will consider it on its merits, but I advise him that to legislate for just one kind of organ would be wasteful. This is a problem to deal with generally as part of the techniques of modern surgery.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what estimate he has made of the number of people covered for hospital treatment by private medical insurance, and of the percentage increase in this number over the past three years; and what action he proposes on account of this trend.

None, Sir. I am aware of these schemes, but my concern is to see that hospital care is available without payment to those who need it.

Ought not the hon. Gentleman to welcome the valuable contribution which the private sector is making to the health of the nation? Is he aware that a progressive and popular gesture on his part would be to enable hospitals to keep for themselves income deriving from private beds which they make available within National Health hospitals?

My answer to the hon. Gentleman's second question is that I am certainly not proposing any change. As for his first question; we must recognise that a substantial extension of private practice in medicine would not be in the interests of the general public. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] Because medical manpower is limited and if private patients claimed disproportionately more beds, there would be fewer for National Health patients.

Will my hon. Friend consult his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to ending the practice by which the taxpayer subsidises private medical practice through tax relief obtained by industrial and business concerns which take out group insurance for their staff?

That is a different question.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we certainly repudiate his views about private health insurance? Can he say quite simply whether it is Government policy to encourage or discourage private health insurance?

I expected the hon. Gentleman to repudiate that view. That indicates the difference between the two sides of the House on this question. The attitude of my right hon. Friend is precisely that of his predecessor. Our main responsibility is to the National Health Service and those who apply for treatment under it.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has to improve community care for the mentally ill to enable patients at present in hospital to be discharged.

Plans for the development of local authority services for the mentally ill are set out in Command Paper 3022—"Health and Welfare: The Development of Community Care".

Does not the Minister realise, as indicated by correspondence I have had with him, that there is a real shortage of accommodation in mental hospitals to the detriment of patients? Would not private facilities designed to get patients out of hospital make up for the Government's inefficiency in not building enough mental hospitals?

I am quite certain of my facts when I tell the hon. Gentleman that the record of the Labour Government is better than any previous Government in this matter, from the point of view of hospitals, day centres, workshops and above all, perhaps, social workers. Our building and recruitment figures are very strikingly in support of a progressive policy in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many hospital beds there are for the mentally sick and sub-normal adolescents; and what estimate he has made of the total number needed to meet requirements.

There are about 1,350 mentally ill and 6,250 sub-normal patients aged 15 to 19 in hospitals in England and Wales. About 250 beds are provided in special units for mentally ill adolescents, for which the total need is estimated to be about 1,000.

Would the Minister agree that there is a totally inadequate provision of accommodation for adolescents who are mentally disturbed? What is he doing to put the situation right? Does he realise that the Midlands, and particularly Derbyshire, are in great need of this type of accommodation, which is sorely lacking at present?

One can exaggerate the size of the problem, although it is a serious one. The formula we use is the provision, in due course, of 20 to 25 beds of this type per 1 million of the population. That gives a total, in due course, of 970 to 1,200 beds. Seventy more beds will be available during the next 12 months. On our present building programme, we believe that we will achieve the overall required figure within a reasonable time.

Will my hon. Friend do all he can to provide small units near homes for these tragic cases, which often require very long-term care?

Yes, Sir. For this reason I spoke of a formula on which we are working. However, a multiplicity of small units would raise difficult economic problems.

Would my hon. Friend take note of the importance which hon. Members on both sides attach to the Question, as well as the many suggestions which have been made by hon. Gentlemen opposite, all meaning very much increased expenditure on the National Heath Service? Can he provide an estimate of the cost of doing all these things?

An actuarial study would be required. I spend a large part of my time trying to meet the persistent demands of hon. Gentlemen opposite for increased expenditure, coupled with demands for reductions in public expenditure.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he expects to shorten the waiting period for patients who are advised to consult their gynaecologists at Leicester Royal Infirmary.

The Sheffield Regional Hospital Board is at present considering how the necessary beds and other facilities could be made available to enable another consultant gynaecologist to be appointed.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some women must wait for more than three months to achieve an appointment with a gynaecologist and that as; a result of this long delay a number of them are having to consult private practitioners?

I am sorry if that is the case. As I have explained, a fifth gynaecologist will be arranged to work in this area. I can see that it would be convenient for the hon. Gentleman's constituents to have a peripheral out-patients' clinic; but again, that would put up costs.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will explain the Government's broad objectives which his predecessor stated were adequately secured by the decision not to reduce the age for exemption from prescription charges to 60 years of age for women.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now take steps to exempt women pensioners between the ages of 60 and 65 years from the payment of prescription charges.

We exempted those most likely to suffer hardship through paying the charges. I have no proposals for extending the categories entitled to exemption.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this decision is causing great hardship to those on the borderline of receiving supplementary pensions? I know of many cases, but one in particular where a woman aged 61, who is disabled and cannot work, is having to pay 5s. a week for her prescription. It is very hard on her.

I am sure that all borderline; cases cause hardship. But wherever we draw the line there is still a borderline case.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that with a retirement age of 60 for women and 65 for men, women should be entitled to the exemption made for them between the ages of 60 and 65 as there is grave hardship throughout the country, and particularly in my constituency?

I cannot draw the same conclusion. I do not think there is any evidence that women between the ages of 60 and 65 are more likely to need frequent prescriptions than men of that age. We did not draw the line at the age of retirement, but at a certain age when we thought the likelihood would be increased.

Will my right hon. Friend take into account that there are many women between 60 and 65 years of age who are dependent on husbands who have retired at 65, because it is in these categories that real suffering is obtaining at present?

Yes. I agree with my right hon. Friend who, as usual, has put her finger on it. This is a genuine area which I am prepared to consider. But I do not think that we should extend the exemption.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what percentage of prescriptions dispensed since the introduction of charges have been subject to exemption.

Forty-nine per cent. during the period from 10th June to 31st July.

Is not my hon. Friend appreciative of the fact that this excludes those claiming exemption under the Social Security Regulations, and those who will benefit by the new season ticket system? Does not he agree that with this newly discovered access of support from Bromsgrove and West Derbyshire we might look again at the whole system of prescription charges, perhaps with a view to doing away with them altogether?

I cannot agree with my hon. Friend's conclusion. Apart from the 49 per cent. to which I referred, a further 2 per cent. of prescription charges are refunded, which makes the figure 51 per cent. This is roughly the figure which was estimated by my right hon. Friends, and I cannot suggest that we can now review it.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is his present estimate of the total revenue from prescription charges in the first 12 months of the operation.

Some £16 to £17 million, including money received for pre-payment certificates.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Can he assure us that, as this seems to fall a little short of the original estimates of the revenue which would be obtained, there will be no question at the end of the year of altering the charge to make the total up to the original estimate?

I see no reason for my hon. Friend's concern. In fact, the figure is running almost exactly as had been anticipated. After all, the scheme was introduced only in June and, apart from the savings to which I referred, there are also some savings through the reduction in the number of prescriptions. My present expectation is that the figure will be approximately £25 million in a full year, as my right hon. Friend announced.

What will the net figure be after expenses have been deducted?

The net expenses will be quite small. I cannot give an exact figure.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services under what act may local authorities grant aid to play groups in order to bring them up to the new standards required under the new Regulations relating to the Nursery and Child Minders Act.

Play groups run by voluntary organisations which provide for children with a special need for care on health and welfare grounds may be assisted by local health authorities under Section 65 of the Health Services and Public Health Act, 1968.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are about 100,000 children in privately run play groups and, because of the new Regulations regarding registration—of which I entirely approve —many of them will have extra burdens to bear in respect of increased sanitary facilities and so forth? Will my right hon. Friend advise local authorities that they are eligible to give these private organisations grants as well?

That has already been done. My Department issued a circular last month giving all the suggestions which we thought might help local authorities in this matter.

Is the Minister aware that one way in which he can help these private authorities is by relieving them of paying S.E.T.?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the latest position reached in the study of the disabled by the Government Social Survey; and if he will make a statement.

Field work began in September and should be completed in January.

As it is now almost exactly a year since the study was first announced in reply to a Question of mine, can the Minister now give any indication of the action which the Government propose to take thereafter? I ask that because it now appears that no positive action can yet be taken to help the severely disabled because of the lack of basic information.

This has been a most successful exercise. Replies were received to 87 per cent. of the 250,000 questionnaires sent out. The fact is that 11,000 people taken from those answers are now being contacted personally, so that within the scope of this survey we shall have a better definition of where these people are located. From that point onwards we can help local authorities to complete their own registers.

Can the Minister say when the information from this survey will be published?

We hope that the survey will be completed by January next. From then onwards it will be largely a matter of analysis. The report will not be available before towards the end of next year, but a lot can be done by local authorities in this matter with the data which we shall be able to send out to them earlier.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will publish in the Official Report the numbers of disabled people in Great Britain divided into appropriate categories; what estimate he has made of the cost of introducing disablement pensions based solely on the level of disablement; and whether he will introduce legislation providing for the payment of such pensions at an early date.

I cannot do as my hon. Friend wishes because we at present lack comprehensive reliable information about the number and extent of disablement in: he population.

But will my right hon. Friend at least assure the House that something will be done as soon as adequate figures are available? Is he aware that the estimates of disabled are expected to be up to 1½ million, and that the helping of these people and their families is a matter of urgent and absolute priority?

My hon. Friend heard in answer to a previous Question how the inquiry was going. When it is completed, and we can study the facts, we can come to our conclusions and make a statement of policy, but not before.

Is it not monstrous that we should have to wait an extra year, that is, two years in all, before any constructive action is taken by the Government?

I am grateful for that question. I said when the survey was completed, not published. It is true that, well before the full publication of all the details, I hope we can come to interim conclusions. I think that it is right to remind us of that.

I appreciate that the work being done by my right hon. Friend and his Department is a massive improvement on the puny efforts of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but may I ask him to continue the liaison with the Disablement Income Group on this problem, as this group has been so helpful and has gathered so much information on this rather difficult problem?

I hope very soon to receive a deputation from the group and to discuss the problem with it.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when the entitlement leaflet, distributed in certain parts of the country at the end of July, will be distributed in the London area.

The distribution of this leaflet was deliberately confined to certain parts of the country so that the relative effectiveness of different methods of publicity in this field could be assessed. It is not yet possible to complete this assessment, and it would accordingly be premature to decide whether the leaflet—which will in any case need amendment to show the increased rates of certain benefits—should be distributed in other areas, including London.

As 16 million of these leaflets were printed, and as there is an undoubted need for a campaign of this type in the London area, may I ask my hon. Friend to give the House an assurance that he will go ahead and distribute them in London as soon as possible, because it is during the winter that the greatest need for benefit occurs?

I think that this is a deliberate decision to confine distribution to certain parts of the country. I think we should wait until the analysis is available—it involves a number of Government Departments—and then we shall consider what action it is appropriate to take for London.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has to introduce legisla- tion to reduce the dangers to the public resulting from the consumption of cigarettes.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what proposals he plans to make to reduce the incidence of lung cancer.

There is no doubt the incidence of lung cancer would be greatly reduced if older people stopped smoking cigarettes and if young people never got the habit. As the House is aware, the Government intend in due course to introduce legislation to restrict cigarette advertising and sales promotion. Meanwhile our most urgent task is to increase the effectiveness of deterrent propaganda among young people.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the report of the Chief Medical Officer of Health makes very gloomy reading, and paints a deteriorating picture? Does he further agree that if we cannot cut this habit more than half a million of today's population will die directly as a result of it? In view of the number of people buying cut-price cigarettes, will my right hon. Friend look urgently at the question of advertising, and possibly at the question of differential tax changes to help people stop smoking cigarettes?

On the first part of that question, the answer is "Yes". That is the logical conclusion to be drawn from what Sir George Godber says. No doubt it is true, and it is an appalling fact. As regards the second part of the question, the suggestion for taxing cigarette advertising or imposing restrictions on it is fraught with difficulties. I am looking at it extremely seriously, but clearly legislation cannot come during this Session.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the recent figures of deaths from lung cancer are causing increasing awareness of this problem, and that people will soon become angry about the numbers dying because of this habit? Will my right hon. Friend take up urgently with the Chancellor of the Exchequer not only the question of a differential tax, where a solution can be found if the will is there, but also the question of withdrawing concessions to travellers abroad who are allowed to bring back up to 200 cigarettes tax-free?

I shall consider both those proposals, and also talk to the Chancellor about them. As for the threat that people will get angry, I hope that they will.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, apart from the effect of smoking cigarettes, air pollution has a great deal to do with the incidence of lung cancer? Will he take steps to make more effective the existing legislation on air pollution?

That is rather a different question, but it is not my impression that it is wise to try to give people the impression that cigarette smoking is not the major cause of the deaths, and not only from lung cancer, but also from bronchitis which is greatly under-estimated as one of the deleterious effects of cigarette smoking.

Whilst sympathising with both original questioners, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he recognises that the simplest, most economical, and most effective way of giving this warning to the smoking public is to print the warning on every cigarette packet sold in this country, which would cost the Government nothing, and would be graphic and illustrative of the dangers?

I think I am right in saying that in the United States something of that sort is done. I am new here, but I shall consider whether that is really a desirable suggestion.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he plans to introduce a civilian disability pension for the civilian handicapped.

I must ask the hon. Member to await the publication of the Government's White Paper on the future development of social insurance.

Would not the Minister agree that such research as exists—I have in mind surveys in West Middlesex—indicates that financial need usually, though not always, goes with physical handicap, and should not a civilian disability pension be the first priority of the new Ministry?

I cannot accept that it should necessarily be the first priority, but we recognise that there is a problem here. It is being considered seriously, but I cannot say anything in advance of the publication of the White Paper.

In preparing the White Paper will my hon. Friend bear in mind the problem of the disabled housewife and take steps to ensure that husbands are not forced to give up work—thereby depriving the community of the results of their work—because of the necessity of being at home to look after the children, do the shopping, and so on?

When I answered the previous supplementary question I had in mind particularly the problems of the severely disabled housewife.

The hon. Gentleman must know his intention to introduce a civilian disability pension. Why cannot he say so now? Does he accept as a principle that all forms of disability—whether caused by industrial injury or civilian disability—should be treated alike for insurance purposes?

The answer is that the Government have promised to recast the social security system, and the results of their considerations will be published in a White Paper. It would be far better for hon. Members to judge the merits of the proposals at that time.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has for enabling an increase in the number of local authority day nurseries.

We will give immediate consideration to all day nursery projects submitted in response to the Government's invitation to authorities under the urban programme and my right hon. Friend would hope to be able to approve many more day nursery schemes than would otherwise have been possible.

My hon. Friend will no doubt be aware of the pleasure that the facilities for the under-fives included in the urban development grant have given to those who have campaigned for this under-privileged section of the community. But is he not aware that—quite rightly—the new Regulations regarding child minders will undoubtedly reduce the number of places provided by the private sector in this respect and that this makes it urgent for an increase to be made over the whole field, especially in areas where mothers go out to work?

Yes, and it was with such a consideration in mind that a further circular was issued on 18th October last inviting local authorities to submit schemes and information as to the total requirements in their areas, both short-term and long-term. When we have received that information we shall decide what steps should be taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will introduce regulations to ensure that emergency National Health Service dental treatment is available at suitably placed local centres at weekends and outside normal working hours.

My right hon. Friend does not consider that the establishment of such a service would be justified.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the emergency dental service ceased in the Luton and Dunstable area recently, due to the lack of support from local dentists? Can he state how many other areas have no emergency treatment facilities—even for dental haemorrhage—outside normal working hours?

On the latter part of the supplementary question, I cannot answer without notice. As to the first part, I was aware of this breakdown of the emergency service in the Luton area. I should tell the House that we have agreed with the Postmaster-General that facilities will be given to existing dentists who notify their Executive Councils of any rota system. There should be a facility whereby people suffering from dental trouble can obtain the necessary information if there is a service in their area.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if, in his discussions on the Seebohm Report, he will consider seeking powers to use the school meals service, staff and premises for providing hot meals for the elderly outside the school dinner hour.

Local authorities already have powers enabling them to use the school meals service for this purpose and a number of them do so. We are considering with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science the possibility of further development.

I am most grateful for that Answer. In view of the fact that the meals on wheels service meets the needs of such a small minority, would not this be an imaginative way to provide one hot meal a day for old people who do not now get it, without duplicating the existing schools service?

Such a service depends on the surplus capacity at schools which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science may feel that he can place at the disposal of such services. Additionally, local authorities can contract with hospitals where equivalent surplus capacity exists.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will consider taking steps to enable his Department to make maintenance payments to separated mothers, and to institute state prosecutions where the husbands default, on the lines of the system operated in Norway, details of which have been sent him.

A separated woman receiving supplementary benefit is already invited to authorise the magistrates' clerk to pay to the Ministry any money received by him under a maintenance order, so that her full supplementary benefit is regularly paid. The Supplementary Benefits Commission obtains orders where a woman is unable or unwilling to proceed and enforces such orders as appropriate. The question of enforcement of judgment debts is being considered by the Payne Committee.

Is it not obviously easier for the State, with all its apparatus and powers, to overcome the difficulties of mothers in this position, rather than for the mothers themselves?

I take my hon. Friend's point but, as I have said, the question of the enforcement of judgment debts, including maintenance and affiliation orders, is being considered by a committee set up by the Lord Chancellor under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Payne. The report of the committee should be available shortly.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some time ago I was promised that the Payne Committee's Report would be available in July of last year and yet we are still waiting for it? When are we going to get it? Is my hon. Friend aware that in many cases where women are living apart from their husbands, his Department—the Department of Social Security—is actually paying State benefit to the men on behalf of their dependants and the dependants are not getting benefit? In many cases the men cannot be traced and the women, who have been trying to keep their families without their husbands' support, are unable to get any judgment summons made effective by the present operation of county court procedure?

With regard to my hon. Friend's concluding remarks, if he knows of any constituent of his, or anyone else, who is experiencing these difficulties we shall be happy to look into them. Speaking completely off the cuff, I have no recollection of anyone from my Ministry, speaking from the Dispatch Box, saying that the Payne Committee was expected to report by July last. I am not doubting my hon. Friend's word. All I can say today, however, is that we are expecting the report shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services, in view of the Government's policy for equal pay for equal work for women, whether he will make a statement concerning pension ages for men and women, at present respectively 65 years and 60 years, on the uniformity of retirement age for men and women, and on the uniformity of earnings rule regulations.

These are all matters which will be discussed in the Govern-men's White Paper dealing with the future development of social insurance and I must ask the hon. Gentleman to await its publication.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services, having regard to increased licence fees for television and radio and longer hours and increased postal and telephone charges, what arrangements he is making to help in these regards the elderly and needy, by supplementary pension increase adjustments; and whether he will make a statement.

As regards television licence fees there is nothing I can add to the replies given by my right hon. Friend the Postmaster General on 14th and 21st October. On the remainder of the question I would remind the hon. Gentleman that supplementary benefit scales were increased as recently as last month.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 770, c. 54 and 222.]

But they were increased after—and long after—it was decided by the Government substantially to increase the television and radio licences. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Postmaster-General replied to me saying that the proposal for a special allowance in respect of the licence for the old and the needy was a very good suggestion? Will not he heed those sympathetic words?

I would not like the House to think that we were unsympathetic to this problem. Consideration has been given to the suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman, and further consideration is being given to it. If we can do so, we shall be helpful.

I appreciate the fact that the supplementary benefits have been increased recently, but could not there be a special type of rebate for elderly people—certainty retired people receiving supplementary benefit—along the same lines as the rate rebate system introduced by the Government?

It seems to me that my hon. Friend prepared his supplementary question before he heard my Answer. I said that we were examining this and that we were not unsympathetic and would do what we could.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many of the 1,600 households estimated to be eligible to receive disabled drivers' cars under the categories announced on 15th February, 1967, have applied for them and received them.

205 applications have been received, of which 143 have been accepted.

Does not this show that the basis of the calculations upon which the Ministry originally made these Regulations need revising, and that if the categories were widened many more people, such as haemophiliacs, could apply for these extremely useful vehicles?

I very much appreciate the efforts made by the hon. Member to visit the establishment responsible for the distribution of these vehicles. His efforts were much appreciated. As to our estimate, given last year, the figures have to be revised the whole time. When the original figures were given for the 1964 estimate they turned out to be an underestimate. We think that the position may not be resolved really efficiently until we get some of the information that we expect to receive from the general survey of the disabled.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that there is something seriously wrong when so few of the people entitled to disabled drivers' cars are receiving them? Would he re-examine once again the whole question of assessment?

Yes, this is a continuing process, but the noble Lord should know that there is the factor of running costs for a car versus those for a tricycle. This is a factor; I would not over-emphasise it, but we cannot be certain of our facts one way or another until we get the results of the survey.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will issue the new Prototype P.5 invalid tricycle as a two-seater.

This prototype has been designed as a single-seater and is still undergoing trials. It is too early to consider any further development of it.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is eminently suitable for a two-seater for those people who are disabled and wish to carry a passenger? When is it likely to come into production for disabled drivers?

The question of a two-seater vehicle is one which might properly be discussed with my right hon. Friend when he receives—the hon. Gentleman will know of this—a deputation from the Joint Council for Mobility of the Disabled shortly. It is a consideration. There are obviously social requirements here which should be satisfied in due course, if our resources permit.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how much was paid to Management Consultants Limited for their services in connection with the appointment of a director of the Health Education Council; and what were the results of their work.

The amount to be paid is £1,094. None of the candidates who responded to the advertisement was considered to have the necessary qualities for the post but the Council have now made an appointment.

Would my hon. Friend confirm that, among the original candidates who applied was the then medical director of the pre-existing Central Council for Health Education, that his application was among relatively few, and that the recent appointment of a new director was not the subject of selection by Management Consultants Ltd., and has resulted in the appointment of a doctor without any previous experience in health education? Would he not agree that this is a very unsatisfactory start to the work of the Health Education Council?

With the benefit of hindsight, one might say that we could have achieved a satisfactory appointment perhaps a little earlier, but we have learned with experience. I do not know the position about any gentleman who was not selected, but, in reply to my hon. Friend's last question, I would say that the new Director-General has had considerable experience of industrial medicine and also holds academic posts. If my hon. Friend considers the situation in normal industry, he will realise that it is not always the proposals of management selection organisations which are accepted by the sponsoring firms.

On a point of order. In view of the totally unsatisfactory answer to that Question, I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment as early as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he proposes to take steps to relax the earnings rule in respect of married women whose husbands are disabled and in receipt of National Insurance Benefit owing to their incapacity to work.

I naturally sympathise with such households and appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern for them. As has previously been said, this rule is being studied in the context of the wider problems of provision for dependency and for long-term incapacity in the new national insurance scheme.

Is it not the truth that the Government are so poor and so much in debt that they cannot even afford this minor concession? What would it cost? Will the hon. Gentleman bring this in when the review comes in?

No, Sir. The truth is that a whole series of improvements have been made in social benefits over a long period, based on a careful judgment of priorities. This matter is being carefully considered in relation to the White Paper which the Government will shortly be publishing.

Can my hon. Friend tell the House how far the earnings rule in respect of married women was relaxed during the 13 years prior to 1964, when the Conservative Party administered this Department?

The answer, of course, is not at all, but the earnings rule was relaxed in respect of pensioners by this Government. Likewise, we have been carefully considering the earnings rule in relation to dependants.

With regard to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale), how many reports and how many recommendations will we need? How many times has this concession been asked for in Parliament? How long will democracy have to wait to have; its ideas implemented by an Executive who made all sorts of promises during the election campaign which have not been kept?

It is not a question of the number of reports or the number of times that the question has been raised, but of the judgment about how to improve the social benefits. They have been improved in a variety of ways over a long period since this Government came in, and we still have to make a judgment on the earnings rule for dependants.

asked the Secretary of State for the Social Services when the research departments of the former Ministries of Health and Social Security will be combined; and whether these will be co-ordinated with the research activities of the Government's Social Survey.

We shall get on with this as fast as possible. As for the second part of the Question, existing arrangements for the co-ordination of the work of the Government Social Survey already take account of the requirements of the two former Ministries and they will continue.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the social research activities of the two former Ministries have, on the whole, been inadequate, and that it would be sensible to coordinate them all with the Government's social survey, about 90 per cent. of whose work in any event has been occupied with social matters?

I will consider this, but one must remember that there are a number of other Departments which use the social survey, and contact is made through a co-ordinating official committee. It may be desirable to do this, but my main job at present is to get on with what the hon. Gentleman first asked about—ensuring that we have a really efficient Department in the merged Ministries.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a crying need for better intelligence right across this field? Would he not consider the whole of the research activity of the Government, and outside the Government, in this context?

I would agree. One of the things which I discovered when I was Minister of Housing three or four years ago was this crying need. We have greatly improved the research and have many more statisticians working for us, but now, of course, there is an acute shortage, because everyone wants statisticians and some people pay more.

asked the Secretary of State for the Social Services if he will now publish a White Paper on the practice of Scientology.

I have nothing to add at present to my right hon. Friend's reply on 15th October to my hon. Friend the Member for West Fife (Mr. William Hamilton).—[Vol. 770, c. 81.]

Does not the Secretary of State appreciate that it is absolutely essential for the Government to produce the evidence which they already have to support the action which they have already taken? Given the propensity of the scientologists to issue writs, is it not essential both for the Press and for the public to have a full document from which they can quote in freedom?

I am very much aware that this is a very important problem, and I have reflected on it a great deal, even before I took over this Department. But the hon. Gentleman will see the importance of my reflecting very carefully at the next stage. I promise him that, if he puts down another Question next time he will get an answer.

I welcome the Government's action already, but would my right hon. Friend understand that there is a good deal of interest on this side of the House as well as on the other about the issue and that the facts as they are known should be given as much publicity as possible?

I appreciate that there is great of interest on both sides. It is not only a question of facts. There are very important principles involved which I am seriously considering.

Since the right hon. Gentleman has reflected on the subject and is noted for his academic brilliance, would he say in one brief, concise sentence, exactly what Scientology is?

Yes, I think I could: it is a fraud.

Even though the practice of Scientology may be a fraud, would my right hon. Friend agree that, unless the evidence is available to the Government to prosecute its sponsors for fraud, the less they meddle in matters which are really for individual judgment the better it would be, and that it would be more helpful to make that information available than to use their draconian powers in order to limit it?

The questions which are now being asked show, I think, my wisdom in saying that a moment's reflection is required before one takes a very important decision. There is a good deal in what my hon. Friend says, but it is only one side of a very awkward question.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he intends to initiate discussion with interested parties on the proposals contained in the Green Paper on the National Health Service; and what timetable he has for implementing the resulting conclusions.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what discussions he is having with the various bodies concerned with the Green Paper on the new structure of the National Health Service; how many of them have reported their views to him in writing; and what extension of time he has given to enable the remainder to do so.

The time for submitting views in writing has been extended to (at latest) the end of January and I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer given on 25th October to the hon. Members for Norwich, North (Mr. Wallace) and Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt). Up to 31st October, 46 bodies had submitted their comments. I shall need to study the views expressed before considering what form the next stages in consultation should take. Because the Green Paper is Green not White, the question of a timetable for implementation does not yet arise.—[Vol. 770, c. 391–2.]

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the growing concern in local government circles which quite properly expect that the Royal Commission's Report will lead to a devolving of responsibility from the Government? Is he not aware that they view with apprehension the movement of services of this sort to nominated bodies rather than elected councils?

If I understand the question aright, the hon. Gentleman should be glad that we are postponing until January any possibility of reaching a decision. As the Maud Commission's Report clearly must be considered before we come to a conclusion, there cannot be any harm in giving people more time carefully to reflect on the Green Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many towns with a population of 57,000 or more have had their social security offices reduced to caller office status.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave him on 17th June.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 766, c. 99.]

Does my hon. Friend agree that while amalgamations in small communities may make sense, it is ludicrous to reduce a town with a catchment area of 75,000 to a corner office with a staff of one man and one girl? Why was Rugby the only town anywhere near this size to be attacked in this manner?

I cannot undertake that there will not be similar plans in years to come in comparable towns, but I understand my hon. Friend's feelings. He met the previous Minister of Social Security on 23rd October and she undertook to consider the points he had raised with the deputation. He knows that my hon. Friend the Minister of State will be writing to him on this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the implementation of the National Health Service (Family Planning) Act, 1967.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the response of local authorities to his circular 15/67 concerning family planning services.

I cannot at present add to the reply given on 16th July by my right hon. Friend to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Renée Short).—[Vol. 736, c. 1236.]

What is the policy of the Ministry towards the provision by local authorities of birth control information to the unmarried, particularly to the unmarried who are under 21, or who are under 16?

This subject was included in the circular which my right hon. Friend sent to local authorities when advising them following the passing of the Act. There is a sign that a number of authorities are taking action, but I recognise: that there has been rather a slow response from a number of authorities and that the situation is still not satisfactory.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will seek to extend the category of persons qualifying for passenger-carrying vehicles available for invalids.

My right hon. Friend is unable to consider further extensions at present.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the present very limited categories produce unfair anomalies and hardship, particularly for disabled husbands who wish to take their wives as passengers? Will he not look at this again?

I absolutely agree that this matter should be looked at constantly. That is why in an earlier Answer I said that it was an appropriate matter for discussion with my right hon. Friend when he meets the Joint Council for the Mobility of the Disabled.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will seek to ensure fair and reasonable conditions for occupation pension schemes when he introduces the new Earnings-Related National Pensions Scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will give an assurance that he will not introduce a state graduated pension system to supersede existing private occupational pension arrangements.

The Government welcome the development of occupational schemes and see a continuing and important rôle for them alongside the new State provision.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, when drawing up the White Paper, that there is widespread concern among 12 million of his fellow countrymen, who have so far saved about £9,000 million in these schemes, that his new proposals may either damage the existing schemes or at least reduce their rate of future growth?

I am aware that there is concern about this, certainly among those who run occupational pension schemes. I share their concern. One of the most difficult problems we must solve is precisely how to establish a new, genuine State occupational scheme which fits in with present schemes. I have had to spend more time and thought on this issue than on most others, but I believe that we have worked out a solution which the hon. Gentleman will find, when he sees it, to be fair.

Would the Secretary of State make a statement about the transferability of pension rights? If private occupational schemes are to continue, something must be done on this score. Is he aware that those who at present belong to these schemes are, when they change their jobs, losing their pension rights at the rate of £1 million a week?

I am aware of the problem. I hope that the subject will be dealt with, together with the pension plan, in the White Paper. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to pursue the matter further, I suggest that he tables a Question to the First Secretary.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will remedy the anomalies in the provision for widows, especially the age qualification of 50 years.

I must ask the hon. Gentleman to await the publication of our proposals for a new scheme of National Insurance later this winter.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he plans to take to reduce the present high rate of turnover of staff for old people's homes.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he intends to take to increase the number of qualified staff for old people's homes.

Discussions are in progress aimed at the early start of new training courses for these staff, and training should help to reduce turnover. Conditions of service are also an important factor, but this is a matter for the employing local authorities, who are, I am confident, well aware of the position.

Does the Minister appreciate the special difficulties occasioned by people working in these hospitals and the need to give them special pay? Is it not true that only those who are dedicated spend long periods of their lives doing this work? Will he make it easier for them?

I have visited many of these old people's homes, and the hon. Gentleman is right in saying that the conditions of work in them need to be improved. Pay considerations come with in the responsibilities of the appropriate Whitley Council. I have been impressed by the sterling work that is done by some married couples in this matter. At present no training arrangement is authorised, and that is being looked into.

Is it not a fact that about 80 per cent. of those doing this work are without any training qualifications? Is not this an unduly high figure?

Yes, Sir. It is high, and that is why we are now trying to organise a training formula; and this should result in more qualified people being recruited.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if the further progress report on the fluoridation experiment done in Anglesey, Kilmarnock, Watford and Andover in 1955 and 1956 will be published before the end of this year.

We expect to publish the report early in the New Year.

The Minister told me on 13th February last that a report would be published "before long". Would he agree that that would seem to indicate to an ordinary person that it would be published within, say, a few months? What has caused the delay?

The statistical work is now complete and is being considered by the Fluoridisation Research Committee. There will be no avoidable delay. I could not anticipate the results, which will be published very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how he intends to improve the administrative procedure of delivery of aids and appliances to the disabled.

My right hon. Friend proposes no immediate changes, but he will examine the various suggestions that have been made.

Would the hon. Gentleman undertake to do this with some urgency, since the distress caused by some of the delays that have been reported are, as he knows, extremely serious?

Yes, Sir. That matter will be looked into. An important report has been submitted by the B.M.A. Planning Unit on Aids for the Disabled. Some of its proposals raise complications, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that the matter will be looked into urgently.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will introduce legislation to make it possible that, in circumstances where one partner of a couple drawing retirement pension is pre vented by ill health from work, that partner's earning entitlement can be transferred to the other.

No, Sir. The level of earnings at which reductions from pension begin is fixed to support the retirement condition and it would, therefore, be inconsistent to have a higher limit for a particular group of retirement pensioners. The hon. Gentleman has written about a rather different type of case, and I shall be, replying to him shortly.

I am obliged to the Minister for his courtesy. Is it not grossly unfair that when a husband is unfit to earn anything at all, all the dependant's portion of the pension is stopped if the wife earns more than £2 16s. a week?

Provision is explicitly made in the regulations for the reasonable cost of making provision for the care of a member of the kind of household about which the hon. Gentleman is concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps officials of his Department take to investigate the background of persons alleged to be obtaining benefits to which they are not entitled before prosecutions are preferred against them.