asked the Minister of Power what is the outcome of his Department's study of special electricity prices for large consumers.

The possibility of special electricity prices for large consumers is the subject of continuing study by the electricity supply industry, in consultation with my Department. The industry's tariffs already confer considerable advantage on consumers with large and economical loads.

When are we to know what the tariffs will be and which are the industries concerned? Presumably aluminium, chemicals, and perhaps steel, are the industries. When are we to have a definite statement placed before the House on what is the policy?

There is no specific study as such. I should remind the House that the statutory responsibility for fixing electricity prices rests ultimately with the boards in consultation with the consultative councils.

asked the Minister of Power what proposals he is now considering for the construction of coal-fired thermal power stations.

The C.E.G.B. are constructing or commissioning some 20,000 MW of coal-fired plant. No additional proposals are under consideration at present.

Although what has been constructed is welcome, what is to be the future of the coalfields in the East Midlands and Yorkshire? Is there not a possible continued use of coal for coal-fired thermal power stations?

What is most important is that coal is produced at the right price so that the C.E.G.B. can use it in large quantities for many years to come. By 1974, 75 per cent. of the plant will still be coal-fired.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the coal-mining industry reduced its production costs by 2s. 6d. per ton to industrial consumers last year and that if this process is continued until 1975 coal will compete favourably in price with nuclear energy or natural gas?

Of course I hope that by 1971, at the end of the transitional phase, output per man-shift and increases in productivity will be such that we shall have a hard core of long-life mines and a robust and efficient coal-mining industry.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on his consultations with the Gas Council on the problems involved in the conversion of consumers to North Sea gas.

The main conversion programme began this year and about 250,000 consumers have been dealt with. The Gas Council have informed my right hon. Friend that a small number of consumers have suffered real inconvenience, but the boards are trying hard to overcome initial difficulties so that the operation is carried out smoothly and efficiently.

Is the Minister aware that there is widespread public feeling that insufficient has been done to inform consumers, particularly domestic consumers, of their rights? What steps does he propose to take to rectify that?

That is not my experience. I have been around a number of Gas Boards, and I am aware of the tremendous efforts which are being made to organise excellent public relations and information services on this matter. If the hon. Member has a particular case in mind, no doubt he will get in touch with us.

Is my hon. Friend aware that considerably more than 30 million appliances will have to be converted? Is he satisfied that the Gas Council is geared to this immense task without causing too much inconvenience to consumers?

In a massive operation of this kind, there is bound to be some inconvenience, considering the large number of consumers involved, but we are satisfied that the Gas Council and the boards are well organised for this purpose. There are proposals to strengthen the central organisation in connection with the absorption of natural gas.

The Minister said that a small number of consumers had been inconvenienced. What number does he mean by "a small number?"

I am not in a position to quote the specific figure.

asked the Minister of Power how many wells have been drilled in the North Sea since 1st January, 1968; how many of these were extension or proving of existing fields and how many were new exploration; how many new exploration wells have produced positive results; and how many of these are likely to prove capable of commercial development.

Seventy-three wells have been completed since 1st January, 1968. Ten were drilled to prove earlier finds and 30 were new explorations. The remainder were production wells. Two exploration wells discovered gas, but further drilling will be required to prove their commercial value.

Will the Minister now publish a revised estimate of total reserves?

We have no reason to do so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the vast capital expenditure involved in all of this is now being challenged? Is he aware of an article which appeared in the Financial Times to this effect? Is he also aware that quite a lot of other indigenous resources are available to us in this country, and will he examine this whole question and the vast capital expenditure involved from the point of view of the economy in general?

It is implicit in the White Paper on Fuel Policy that there will be a continuing study and revision as and when required of any estimates and figuring in that document As for the rate of absorption in relation to the capital investment programme of the industry, we have no reason to revise our ideas at this stage.

asked the Minister of Power what reassessment he intends to make of the estimate of the fuel requirements of the nation as set out in Command Paper No. 3438 of November, 1967.

asked the Minister of Power when he will be able to inform the House on his first retrospective look at the estimates in the Fuel Policy White Paper.

As I told the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) on 24th July—Vol. 769, c. 151—the monitoring of energy developments is part of the normal work of the Ministry. I will, of course, tell the House if it should lead to any change of policy.

Is the Minister aware that the statement made at the weekend to the effect that the Government were able to reappraise the enegry situation in Britain has received universal welcome in the coalfields? Will he now go further and ask the National Coal Board to suspend any further pit closures on economic grounds until this reappraisal has been completed?

On the question of closures, we will be heeding the recommendations of the regional planning chairman and will be determining quite soon what the deferment programme should be for the winter months.

As the right hon. Gentleman claimed on 12th July that he was urgently engaged in his first retrospective look at the White Paper, surely now, four months having passed, we should be given an answer.

I am now studying the matter as a result of that retrospective look. I met the chairmen of the nationalised industries at Sunningdale. There are later Questions on this issue.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the White Paper has still not yet been discussed and approved by the House?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House and not for me.

My right hon. Friend talks about informing the House when changes are made. Does that mean in future that he will not make decisions when the House is in recess instead of making them when the House is in session, as he did in the case of the decision about Seaton Carew?

It depends on the urgency of the matter—[Interruption.]—and what the decision is designed to do. In the case to which my right hon. Friend referred, we were anxious to get 300 men at work by Christmas on the nuclear site.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will make a statement on his recent Summit fuel conferences at the Civil Defence Staff College at Sunningdale, Berkshire, with the National Coal Board and other nationalised fuel industries; and to what extent he has been able to reach an agreed policy for the coal user between the National Coal Board and the Electricity and Gas Boards, and others.

asked the Minister of Power if he will publish the documents submitted by him to the Sunningdale Conference; what decisions were made at the conference; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Power in what respects he proposes to alter the Government's fuel policy as a result of his recent conference at Sunningdale; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the recent talks he had with the chairmen of the fuel and steel industries at Sunningdale.

asked the Minister of Power what consideration he is giving to reviewing the Government's policy for coal in the light of his recent conference at Sunningdale with the heads of the State fuel industries and the British Steel Corporation.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on his reappraisal of national fuel policy following his recent discussions with the heads of the fuel industries.

The Conference at Sunningdale was the first meeting under my chairmanship of the Minister of Power's Co-ordinating Committee, in which the chairmen of the nationalised industries, for which I am responsible, came together for collective discussion on matters of common interest. At this meeting we took the opportunity, as part of the Ministry's continuing work on fuel policy to review developments in the energy sector since the publication of the White Paper, and to discuss the programme for further work on energy problems. The meeting was also concerned with broader general questions of relations between the Government and the industries.

That is a very unsatisfactory Answer. Can the right hon Gentleman assure the House that the long-standing hostility between the heads of the gas and electricity industries and the Chairman of the National Coal Board was resolved under his harmonious chairmanship, or does this hostility still remain?

I found all the chairmen to be most reasonable and co-operative throughout the conference.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when his predecessor refused to publish documents submitted to the Selsdon Park Conference, he was forced to disgorge them by the Committee on Science and Technology? Would it not be a good thing for the right hon. Gentleman to publish the documents in this case without being forced into doing so by another Select Committee? Would he agree that it would also be a better idea to carry forward the estimates in the White Paper on fuel policy, rather than to revise those which have already been made, by adding another year's figures at the end?

I do not like the threat underlying the hon. Gentleman's question about my being forced to reveal papers. On the occasion of the Selsdon Park Conference, drafts were before the chairmen in relation to the 1967 White Paper on fuel policy. On this occasion the two or three papers before the chairmen where on entirely different matters and were, therefore, confidential.

In view of the importance of keeping down steel prices, what steps is the right hon. Gentleman taking to at least reduce the competitive disadvantage of the steel industry in terms of the price it must pay for fuel compared with its international competitors?

That matter was not a subject on the agenda of the Sunningdale Conference.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that this House is entitled to information which is bandied about between the chairmen of nationalised industries and my right hon. Friend? Is it not the case that if my right hon. Friend is not forthcoming in this regard, a Select Committee of this House will ensure that it gets the information to which it is entitled?

I fully appreciate the point of view of my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Lubbock)—

What about me? I started it.

Hon. Members will be fully aware that if threats of this kind are to be made and if Select Committees are to search for papers, it is understandable that in future those who prepare papers for these round-table conferences will always have these matters in mind.

As the Minister must appreciate that all of industry makes budgets and forecasts as a result of the White Paper on fuel policy, will he say categorically that the Selsdon Park Conference did not revise the budgets and forecasts, and so enable industry to know exactly where it stands?

That is true. It did not revise them, although there was a matter which perturbed the Chairman of the N.C.B. As I said, the other chairmen were co-operative and responsible throughout the conference and appreciated his difficulty; and we are prepared to look afresh at the new trends in coal.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that rumour might result in disturbing stories being sent out to the public, so bringing a tremendous amount of fear to the hearts of the miners? Will he now publish the evidence which was arrived at at that conference, and so make us all aware of the facts?

It would not help matters to publish such evidence because it has nothing to do with the matter before us. I said that the chairmen appreciated the position of the Chairman of the National Coal Board in relation to the recent rundown in manpower figures. Because of that, we are looking afresh at the trends in coal.

rose—

Order. Mr. Irvine, Question No. 11.

On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's Answer, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the adjournment.

Such notice should be given more quickly.

asked the Minister of Power what discussions he has had with the Electricity Council with regard to increasing the level of its appropriation for research, particularly into the possibilities of placing 132 and 225 kilovolts cables underground.

My right hon. Friend will shortly discuss with the Chairman of the Electricity Council their general programme of research, but we believe they have the right order of expenditure on underground cables generally and on high voltage in particular.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us any other organisation which is trying to keep abreast of a technological field and which spends less than 1 per cent. of its annual revenue on research? Now, with a substantial profit, is this not the moment to reconsider it?

It would be more correct to consider the actual figures. I understand that approximately £300,000 is spent specifically on underground cables and that a substantial part of the £700,000 which is being spent on high voltage direct current transmission and superconductivity is also related to undergrounding.

Would the hon. Gentleman not look again at the amount of research devoted to the particular problem of placing cables underground, before the countryside becomes irretrievably ruined by the mass of pylons and overhead wires?

I, and doubtless other hon. Members, would appreciate it if a little less colourful phraseology were used. I have no doubt—I am as concerned as anyone here about the countryside—about the responsible attitude which the C.E.G.B. seeks to take. The last complete year's figures available show that about £6 million was spent on amenity in addition to commercial costs by the Board.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will make a statement on future investment policy in the gas, coal and electricity industries.

This is as stated in White Papers Cmnd. 3437 and 3438.

But is the hon. Gentleman not being rather inflexible in this policy? Does not the rapid expansion of gas investment during 1968–73, both on conversion and on capacity, render the subsequent large investment in electricity rather unnecessary?

The hon. Member could not have heard my Answer. I referred, quoting the White Papers concerned, among other things to the White Paper on Fuel Policy, which lays down the guide lines for investment, and we are sticking to them.

asked the Minister of Power what is the target return on capital employed he proposes to set for the British Steel Corporation; and how this compares with the estimated current return.

My right hon. Friend has not yet settled a financial objective with the Corporation. In 1966–67 the nationalised steel companies' return on capital employed was 1·9 per cent. after depreciation but before tax and interest.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that utmost priority must be given to the determination of a return of interest? Could he say whether, in the pursuit of economic excellence, it is the intention of his Ministry to relate that return to the most profitable rates of return of North American and European steel manufacturers?

The position is as laid down in guidelines in the White Paper on the Nationalised Industries, Cmnd. 3437, to which I have referred. To quote from it, the targets which we will be seeking to reach as soon as possible

"…should reflect sound investments and pricing policy and not vice versa."

asked the Minister of Power what proposals he has received from the British Steel Corporation seeking to raise the prices of its products; and if he will make a statement.

None, Sir; but the Corporation's major price review is nearing completion and my right hon. Friend expects to receive their conclusions before the end of the year.

When making those considerations, will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the present rate of return of the British Steel Corporation is ludicrously low if it is to finance its capital investment to any degree at all out of retained profits? Would he also ensure that any price increases are so organised as not to discriminate against the substantial private sector which still operates in the British steel industry?

Those words are noted on the record, but I cannot anticipate the Corporation's conclusions, which will be presented to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Power what progress has been made by Her Majesty's Government in implementing the recommendations of the Aberfan Tribunal of Inquiry.

I shall review progress when I move the Second Reading of the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Bill on Thursday.

Would my right hon. Friend bear in mind, whatever transpires on Thursday, the appalling cost which the people of Aberfan have had to face, and that no further cost should be expected from them—as otherwise his Bill will be strongly opposed?

As I said, I cannot anticipate my review on Thursday, but no doubt my hon. Friend should feel extremely grateful that we have made progress and that the Bill is before us this week.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we on this side are glad of the Government's intention to deal with the tips at Aberfan? How much money, however, has been spent on this tip between the disaster and now? Have we to wait for the passing of the Bill before any further work can be done?

The original Question had nothing to do with the Aberfan tip, but with the Bill which is before the House. I believe, however, that £600,000 has already been spent on the tip since that time.

asked the Minister of Power what is the reason for the retention by the British Steel Corporation of a 45 per cent. holding in the privately-owned Sheffield Rolling Mills Company.

asked the Minister of Power (1) whether, before approving the application by the British Steel Corporation, he will make it a condition that the Corporation shall have a 51 per cent. holding in the proposed new steel company, Sheffield Rolling Mills Limited;

I am satisfied that the general arrangements agreed for Sheffield Rolling Mills Ltd., are in the interest of the nationalised steel industry, although I will not give final approval until satisfactory detailed terms to give effect to them have been worked out. I have agreed to send the T.U.C. Steel Industry Consultative Committee a paper setting out the position.

But since this company is to be returned to the private sector, can the Minister explain why the taxpayers' money is to be spent on investments in it? He must give a reason for spending public money. What is the reason for this 45 per cent. holding in an ordinary private company?

Because the Tinsley Park Bar Mill comes under the B.S.C., the B.S.C. wants to safeguard its interests and it is satisfied that its 45 per cent. interest will do just that.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the contribution of the private sector to this venture is, to some extent, on their own admission, in the form of obsolescent plant and equipment, while the contribution of the public sector is in the most modern plant in Europe? Would it not be more equitable to the taxpayer, who has already paid for this plant, if a majority holding in the new company were held by the British Steel Corporation?

The Tinsley Park Bar Mill has never worked above 50 per cent. capacity, and has been making heavy losses in recent years. The B.S.C. is satisfied with the suggestion that it shall have the managing director and two directors as well on the new company and that its interests will be safeguarded.

asked the Minister of Power what information he has about the proportion of helium in each of the natural gas fields discovered in the North Sea; and if he will undertake a study to ascertain the probable cost of extracting this helium, and the potential market for it in cryogenic laboratories.

All natural gas supplies in the North Sea contain a very small proportion of helium. Detailed information is reported to me by the licensees, but it is confidential. With regard to the second part, I am looking into this with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Does he appreciate that all the liquid helium used in cryogenic laboratories must be imported from the United States and Canada and that, if it were feasible to extract the material from the North Sea, we would achieve a substantial import saving?

The point is taken, but on present information—I stress those words—the cost of extracting helium from the North Sea would, it seems, be more expensive than our present imports.

asked the Minister of Power what estimate he has made of the percentage of coal in total fuel con sumption in 1971, and of the tonnage which this will represent.

Estimates of coal consumption were published in the Fuel Policy White Paper (Cmnd. 3438).

Does that reply mean that, notwithstanding Brookings, the E.I.U. and other reports, the present rate of run-down will be maintained?

We have no reason at this stage to revise the forecast announced in the White Paper.

asked the Minister of Power whether he is satisfied with the operation of the existing procedures for prior consultations between his Department and the Central Electricity Generating Board on pylon routes; and if he will make a statement.

The Board consults local planning authorities and other bodies, not with the Department, and my right hon. Friend is satisfied that these procedures work well.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary taken into consideration the fact that on two occasions this year those procedures have not worked in that the appeals were rejected? Does not this indicate that he should have another look at the matter?

The whole object of having independent appeals procedure is to ensure that a view is taken independently of the industry and the appellants on either side. The Minister cannot get involved in procedures because he is in a quasi-judicial position at the end of the day.

asked the Minister of Power how much of the new £1,600 million capital provided for the gas industry has already been taken up; and what proportion of the borrowing power it is estimated will be used in the current fiscal year and the fiscal year 1969–70.

£1,600 million is the total of the old borrowing powers and the new borrowing powers granted under the Gas and Electricity Act, 1968. The Gas Council and boards have not yet taken up any of their new £400 million borrowing powers.

If the views in the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries concerning North Sea gas are accepted, would the Minister not consider that the total borrowing power ought to be looked at again and that there ought to be some reconsideration of it? Will he consider the whole matter in the light of the Select Committee's Report?

I do not see any reason for reconsidering this in the light of the Select Committee's Report. I do not know to what specific recommendation the hon. Member is referring, but on the whole the Select Committee's Report is fairly favourable and it has established so far that there are 25 years' supplies of North Sea gas at the rate of 3,000 m.c.f.d. and this is coming along as planned.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that control of this vast expenditure should be in the hands of the Gas Council? Is it not a matter of general interest, particularly in view of natural gas, to the fuel industries generally?

I scrutinise rigorously investments of all the boards each year.

asked the Minister of Power whether, in his forthcoming legislation on the structure of the gas industry, he will consider empowering it to lay electric cables as part of total energy schemes.

My right hon. Friend has no such proposal in mind at present.

In view of the very high thermal efficiencies achieved by some of these schemes in the United States, has the Minister any plans in this Session to get rid of some of the rigidities in structure of our nationalised energy industries?

That is a rather different question from the question about power to lay cables. If we are to look at this question it should not be considered solely from the point of view of one of the fuel industries, for there is an interest in this right across the board.

asked the Minister of Power what progress he is making in his study of the future exploration of the Continental Shelf.

It has just begun.

I welcome my hon. Friend's statement. Can he give an idea of how long the study is likely to take and whether he will be publishing the results? Does he envisage announcing changes in the licensing procedure before the present arrangements come to an end in 1970 and 1971?

This is a subject which is part of a study which has just begun. There is time available, as the licences do not fall due until 1970 and 1971, so I am sure that we shall be able to come up with the answers well before then.

Will the hon. Gentleman say a little more about licences which have not been let, particularly as there is some comment that he should be encouraging the oil companies to begin drilling in the Irish Sea, the Bristol Channel and, indeed, the northern part of the Continental Shelf?

This is one of the matters which will have to be considered as part of the study. There are a number of factors to be taken into account, not least the objectives set out in the Labour Party's recent study document on this subject.

asked the Minister of Power what is the margin of surplus generating capacity likely to be attained by the Central Electricity Generating Board in the coming winter; if the level is such that power cuts will be avoided; and if he will make a statement.

The Central Electricity Generating Board expects to have a margin of about 20 per cent. over the maximum demand in average cold spell weather. This should be fully adequate.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, although we should congratulate the C.E.G.B. on this very excellent result, this now presents an opportunity to the Board to take out of service some of its really old plant and hence increase the general efficiency of the British electricity supply system?

Yes, and as the new plant is coming into commission the Board is taking advantage of the margin to do exactly that.

Can we take the right hon. Gentleman's answer as disposing of the rumour that night storage heater costs are to be increased?

I should want notice of that question.

asked the Minister of Power when he expects the Committee headed by Sir Alan Wilson to inquire into the causes of delays in commissioning the new power stations of the Central Electricity Generating Board to report.

I hope to have the Committee's report by early next year.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that this Committee, which is a little inbred in its membership, will give him a really impartial and penetrating report on this very serious problem?

Yes. The Committee is treating this very seriously. I do not accept my hon. Friend's view that the Committee is inbred. It has already met twenty times and is still collecting evidence and visiting power station sites. I shall have its report by the turn of the year.

asked the Minister of Power what steps he is taking to ensure that the construction of the Seaton Carew power station provides maximum employment for persons in the North-East.

The Central Electricity Generating Board's specification provides that the contractor should make the maximum use of all suitable local labour and should give consideration to placing sub-contracts with local firms where appropriate.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it was a disappointment to the North-East that we did not get the contract? In view of the importance of getting work of this character to the North-East, will my right hon. Friend ensure that this provision is fully carried out?

I will certainly watch that. As my right hon. Friend knows, Babcock English Electric Nuclear Limited got the contract. Seventy men are already on the site. There should be several hundred employed by mid-winter.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give the date when it was decided to call for tenders?

I could not give that offhand, but if it is perturbing the hon. Lady I will write to her about it.

Can my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that men who have been made redundant in my constituency as a result of the closure of pits because of the action of the Coal Board, with the consent of the Government, of my right hon. Friend's Department in particular, will be re-employed on the site at Seaton Carew?

No doubt some of them will be, but most of the unemployed in my right hon. Friend's area are construction workers and not miners.

Will my right hon. Friend give special attention to the facilities available in the switchgear industry for this very important contract on Tyneside?

No doubt that will be taken into consideration by the contracting company.

asked the Minister of Power what estimates he has made of the value of capital that will have to be written off in the period 1968–69 within the coal industry as a result of pit closures.

Of the £129 million written off from the Reserve Fund in the N.C.B.'s 1967–68 Accounts about £38 million was for pit closures expected in 1968–69.

Is the hon. Member prepared to lay before the House the plans for pit closures expected this winter?

That is another question.

Is the Minister aware that in my constituency, where there have been extensive pit closures, they are advertising for coal miners? Would he comment on that?

I hope that the advertising and recruiting campaign will be effective, but it is not germane to the Question.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will make a state- ment on the undertakings he has given to the National Coal Board, and the National Union of Mineworkers, for future production arrangements for the coalmining industry and reduced rate of pit closures; and whether he will now publish, as amended, the Government's White Paper on Energy Policy.

I have given no such undertakings, but I am studying recent developments in the industry.

Has not the right hon. Gentleman perceived that in the first 42 weeks of this year the massive number of 50,000 men left the coalmining industry, reducing its labour force by 13 per cent., so that the rate of output of coal has declined by no less than 8 million tons a year? Is he satisfied with that calamitous rate of depreciation of our most important basic industry?

I have also noticed that output per man shift has increased faster than we anticipated and that the number of industrial disputes in the industry this year is the lowest on record.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the 1967 White Paper natural gas, oil and nuclear energy were given guaranteed markets? In any review of the 1967 White Paper, will my right hon. Friend make it compulsory for these three industries to compete on equal terms with the coal-mining industry?

I will, of course, give consideration to any suggestions made by my hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Power if he is yet ready to make a statement on the pricing policy of the National Coal Board.

No, Sir.

Is it the Minister's intention that the N.C.B.'s present pricing policy will continue to result in the closure of long-life, marginally profitable, high-output coalfields?

That is another question, but we do not expect the results of the study referred to in the Question before the end of the year.

asked the Minister of Power what is currently the long-term marginal cost of coal at the pit head.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary on 26th July.—[Vol. 769, c. 261.]

Will the Minister confirm that it is the Government's policy that nationalised industries should charge prices related to long-term marginal costs? Would he further confirm that in the case of the Coal Board these prices are very different from those which are in fact being charged?

Long-run marginal costing is being studied in the current review of the N.C.B.'s present structure, but the hon. Member should be aware that forecasting in this industry is terribly complex because it is subject to a great deal of change and depends on assumptions about productivity, rate of extraction, and, as this is a labour industry, also on the cost of labour.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the proposals for pit closures in Scotland in 1969.

The programme of colliery closures for 1969 is in the process of being formulated by the National Coal Board. It has so far announced the closure of Roslin Colliery and that the results of three other colleries are such as to put their future in jeopardy.

What action is the Minister taking with other Ministers concerned to make special arrangements for redundant miners in view of the fact that the total number of jobs of all kinds in Scotland has fallen by more than 20,000 since 1964?

Apart from the tremendous work which Ministers are putting in to make sure that alternative employment is available, we recognise that the outflow from the mines may be faster than we can install or erect new employment. Therefore, we introduced the over-55 scheme and 33,000 miners will benefit under that scheme. This is easing the situation.

Will my right hon. Friend say which three pits have their future in jeopardy? What progress has been made in providing alternative jobs in the areas designated as special development areas consequent on pit closures?

On the S.D.A.s my hon. Friend should address his Question to the Board of Trade. The three pits concerned are Blair, Auchincruive and Kennox. No other closures are contemplated in the winter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Roslin Colliery is in my constituency and that this is the second pit closure in my constituency in a very short time? Is he aware that these closures are causing concern among miners not only in my constituency but all over Scotland?

I am fully aware of anxieties about pit closures because there have been five in my constituency. I do not think I can take it much further than that. We shall be dependent on chairmen of regional planning committees letting us know where a pit closure will cause or aggravate high unemployment rates in the regions and they will be considered for deferment.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has considered the proposals for a slower run-down of the coal industry made in the Brookings Institution study, Britain's Economic Prospects, extracts from which have been sent to him; and what steps he plans to take on the proposals.

The energy section of the Brookings' Report was written before the publication last November of the Fuel Policy White Paper. The Report fails to recognise that more is being done now to slow down the contraction of the coal industry than has been done by any other Government.

Does the Minister appreciate that the Brookings Institution Report throws at least some reasonable doubt on the wisdom of the Government's proposed rate of run-down of economic pits between 1970–75? In view of the fact that the run-down will have catastrophic results in the Yorkshire Coalfield where there are very few alternative employment opportunities, will he give the coal industry benefit of doubt on the Report?

No, I will not. As I said, the Brookings Report came out before I the Institution had available the analysis we made and the papers we prepared for fuel policy. There have been three independent reports since 1966, the P.E.P., the E.I.U. and the Brookings and they all came to different conclusions.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that if the Government pursued their own policy of adopting long-term marginal costing for coal the price of coal would go up and the rate of decline in the coal industry would therefore increase?

That is not necessarily true, but we shall wait to see what the Coal Board says about long-term marginal costing when it has put forward its new pricing policy.

asked the Minister of Power if he estimates that winter output and supplies of smokeless fuels will be adequate to meet demand.

asked the Minister of Power if he is aware of the difficulties in many parts of the country in obtaining supplies of anthracite and other smokeless fuels; what statistics are available for the demand and supply of such fuels; and what steps he is taking to improve the supply.

My right hon. Friend is aware of difficulties in some parts of the country in supplies of particular smokeless fuels. Discussions have been held between producers, British Rail, merchants and the Department, and the National Coal Board has told my right hon. Friend that it is increasing supplies of smokeless fuels, particularly anthracite nuts.

What will be the position in regard to more specialised smokeless fuel such as "Home-fire" or "Bronowski Bullets" as they are sometimes called? Does the industry show the same wide-eyed optimism as the National Coal Board about these fuels or does it take a more moderate view?

I will ignore the rather wide-eyed adjective used by the hon. Member and say that there will be difficulties as I have indicated this year, but the N.C.B. and the merchants think that they can master the difficulties and that there will be sufficient supplies available.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many people are dependent for cooking facilities on some of these fuels and if the clean air policy is to have any meaning these fuels will have to be readily available?

I certainly agree with my hon. Friend. A tremendous effort is being made in consultation with the various parties to whom I have referred to get the matter reconsidered for this winter and to ensure that there are no difficulties in future.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some of my rural constituents have been cooking on Aga stoves for 20 years and this is the first time that they have not been able to obtain Phurnacite? Will he look into the matter and act quickly?

If my hon. Friend will give information to the N.C.B. and merchants they will pursue the matter.

asked the Minister of Power what plans he has to establish an appeals procedure for dealing with applications for benefit under the Redundant Mineworkers (Payments) Scheme, 1968.

My right hon. Friend has agreed with the unions the establishment of local committees to examine disputed cases, and is discussing with the Department for Employment and Productivity how we might call upon the personnel of industrial tribunals as advisers in such cases.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the National Coal Board appears to be interpreting the Order very narrowly and legalistically and not in the spirit which I am sure was intended by hon. Members who supported the Order in the House? Can we be assured that borderline cases will be given very adequate attention by the very welcome machinery which my hon. Friend is setting up?

It is not for me to comment on particular cases across the Floor of the House. I only hope that the machinery to which I have referred will be set up soon so that disputes can be solved through it.