asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will instruct his road engineers, in co-operation with appropriate local authorities, to plan variations of the proposed route of the Cardiff Northern By-pass, to avoid the necessity for demolition of houses at Lisvane, including houses erected in recent years; and if he will make a statement.

We are already doing all we can to avoid houses, but the demolition of some property in Lisvane is unavoidable if the road is to have a satisfactory alignment. I would stress that the present line is provisional and might be varied slightly when the road is designed in detail and further surveys are carried out.

Does the Under-Secretary appreciate that there is a large degree of uncertainty and that many people, some of whom have bought expensive houses in recent years, are apprehensive about this and are unaware whether their properties are affected?

My right hon. Friend will regret it as much as anyone if houses have to be demolished, but this road will carry through-traffic to and from South Wales and a satisfactory alignment is most essential.

While recognising the difficulty of alignment and the importance of this road, may I ask whether the Under-Secretary is in a position to tell the House how many houses will be demolished and for how long these houses have been built?

The line is provisional at the moment, and full details are not available. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the position is being fully investigated, and the concern expressed by him and his hon. Friend will be taken into account. The actual number of houses affected is not yet available, because the line is provisional.

Following what has been said, does my hon. Friend appreciate that the uncertainty caused by these matters creates a blight of areas and property much wider than the road itself will affect? Is he aware that it is necessary that local authority or central Government should make clear to individual residents whether they will be buying houses which may be, in a month or a year, acquired for the road?

We are fully aware of this, but when a new road is built some houses are inevitably affected. Consideration is given to all these matters and we will give as much advance information as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many sewerage disposal schemes in rural areas he has refused to approve since he came into office on the grounds of economy.

Eighteen.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the tremendous resentment in Wales, because of the feeling that he is curtailing and preventing the implementation of sewerage schemes in rural areas? The implied reasoning behind this seems to be that they are not urgently required for housing and public health reasons in the rural areas as opposed to urban areas.

In the same period I have agreed to 26 schemes in rural areas. I am not free to agree to every scheme that comes before me, without consideration of the limits on public expenditure.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many villages in the Principality of Wales, including Monmouthshire, are still without any mains sewerage scheme; and what steps he intends to take to remedy the position.

I regret that the information covering the first part of the Question is not readily available. On the second part, local authorities themselves have the responsibility to prepare schemes for settlements in their areas where they think it worth while to provide main drainage. I am very ready to consider any scheme submitted to me; but authorities must bear in mind that only the essential schemes can be allowed to proceed at present.

Does the Secretary of State not appreciate that local authorities feel frustrated because, after years of preparation in consultation with his Office, when the final schemes are prepared, in many cases he turns them down or at least holds them back? Is he aware that they feel that the Government no longer regard the provision of rural sewerage schemes as an important and urgent matter?

I understand and sympathise with the frustration that the rural local authorities feel. The plain truth is that we cannot be indifferent to the size of public expenditure.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what outside experts and specialists have been commissioned by him to advise on the procedure to be carried out at the Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Caernavon.

I have not commissioned any outside experts or specialists to advise on the procedure.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the greatest expert on the Investiture of the Prince of Wales is the unfortunate gentleman who was invested the last time? Will he consult his book on the Investiture, in which he described the Investiture procedure as rather silly, saying that he nearly went on strike and was only persuaded to carry on to please his mother?

I well recall my hon. Friend telling the House that, like General Eisenhower, he is a Republican, so I understand that he is opposed to any ceremonial associated with royalty.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, in view of the present economic situation and the need for reductions in expenditure, if he will postpone the Investiture of the Prince of Wales at Caernarvon until the end of the financial crisis.

No, Sir.

Why is the Secretary of State determined to be the prodigal son of the Labour Government and to insist on this expensive spending spree at a time when the nation is in such financial difficulties?

The unprejudiced view of my hon. Friend overlooks the fact that this Investiture happens to be a very good investment for the people of Wales. No fewer than 400 million people are expected to watch it on the television. I am confident that the Investiture will arouse tremendous interest for the tourist trade in Wales.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is lucky that Wales as a whole does not take the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) very seriously? It is the opinion of the Opposition that the vast majority of the people of Wales look forward to the Investiture with great enthusiasm.

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. I share his view that, when the Investiture takes place and the Prince tours Wales, the Welsh people will turn out in their tens of thousands.

On a point of order. I hope to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of the growth of population, the increase of industrial road traffic and of car ownership in the areas of Barry, Rhoose, Wenvoe and Llantwit-Major, and the number of road accidents in recent years along the main Cardiff to Barry road via Wenvoe, he will take steps to change the status of that road to an A road; and if he will make a statement.

The function of this road has not altered in such a way as to justify giving it the status of a trunk road.

But is not the hon. Gentleman aware that this road has a very serious accident record and that, apart from numerous accidents resulting in injury, there have been a large number of fatal accidents in recent years? Is he further aware that the kind of alterations which are necessary can be ensured only by upgrading the road?

We fully appreciate the importance of this road, but traffic volumes play only a part in determining the status of the road. The bulk of the through-traffic travels along the A48 and duplicating the trunk road facilities could not be justified.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what reply he has sent to the petition from the residents of Rhoscefnhir, Anglesey, against the determination of the Anglesey County Council to destroy certain structures at Caerffynnon, Rhoscefnhir.

The petition formed part of the evidence considered before the decision letter of 29th February, 1968, was sent.

While thanking the hon. Gentleman for that reply, which is not very informative, may I ask him whether he accepts that the occasion of this petition was a protest from the residents of this village against the vendetta being carried on by the Anglesey County Council and the local rural district council against my constituent who has a holiday home there? Would he agree that this treatment of a man from Liverpool compares very badly with the treatment which Welsh men and women always receive from the warm-hearted people of my constituency?

I cannot for one moment accept the word "vendetta". The petition concerned a case which goes back a few years. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that the appeals in connection with this matter have been fully dealt with. The appeals have been subject to two references to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, who found that there was no maladministration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his policy regarding the provision of amenities at caravan sites in Wales.

I would refer the hon. Member to the model standards prescribed under Section 5 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, 1960, and published with Ministry of Housing and Local Government Circular No. 42 of 1960.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that my constituent in the case which I raised in the Question No. 7 has been directed by the Anglesey County Council to destroy two small buildings containing a bathroom, hot and cold water and a flush lavatory so that they can be replaced by a chemical toilet?

I am aware of the position, but I must emphasise that the amenity change to which the hon. Gentleman has referred involved planning permission, and planning permission was refused by the planning authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made on the study by consultants appointed by him on the alignment and programming of the Llantrisant radial road, Cardiff; what the specific terms of references for the consultant were; and when they were given.

The following terms of reference were agreed and given to the consultants in October, 1968:

"To examine and report on the construction of a new trunk road between the Gabalfa Intersection and the north/south railway which runs between Rhydlafer Farm and Slanny Woods and in liason with Glamorgan County Council to indicate the westward continuation of the new road to the proposed M4 extension."

Would my right hon. Friend say whether within the terms of reference the consultants are considering the alternative routes for this road, because it was assumed that the road line given in the Buchanan proposals and the road line given in the Buchanan Report was firm? If that is not so, the alignment of the whole of the Cardiff road programme is affected and must be looked at again.

I fully understand my hon. Friend's anxiety and that of Cardiff people. The consultants are satisfying themselves that the line which they finally recommend is the best obtainable on engineering as well as planning grounds, and any departure from the findings in the Buchanan studies would be made only if there were very strong engineering grounds.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether under his new responsibilities for agriculture in Wales, he will abolish the Mid-Wales Rural Development Board.

My right hon. Friend's new responsibilties will not affect the present statutory position, under which the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and he are jointly responsible for setting up a rural development board in Wales. No board has yet been established. We are now awaiting the report of the public inquiry into the proposals.

It is a little difficult to understand the dividing line between the responsibilities for agriculture of the hon. Lady's two right hon. Friends. Since in two years' time, under another Government, the Mid-Wales Rural Development Board will be got rid of, can the hon. Lady say why her right hon. Friend continues to waste public money on it?

Apparently this is a matter on which the hon. Gentleman cannot be convinced. We believe that the £500,000, or thereabouts, which will be injected into the area if the Board is established will be of very great benefit.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will make a statement on Welsh agriculture.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Fred Evans) on 5th November, the Secretary of State will not be assuming his new functions until April of next year.—[Vol. 772, c. 63.]

But that does not answer my Question. Would the Secretary of State, when he takes over these new functions, make a statement on Welsh agriculture because the statement made by his right hon. Friend the other day was very inadequate and meant very little to Welsh farmers?

On the contrary, I should have thought that the reassurances given about meat and milk would be very satisfactory to farmers, not to mention the sheep. My right hon. Friend will not take over these functions before April next year.

In view of the recent statement of the Minister of Agriculture about home agriculture's contribution to import substitution, would my hon. Friend think it appropriate to issue a statement on the contribution which Welsh agriculture can make?

At the moment, that is still a matter for the Minister of Agriculture.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement concerning the future population target of Cwmbran New Town; and whether he will take steps to restructure the Development Corporation and existing amenity plans to meet the needs caused by an expansion of the new town.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to announce his conclusions on the new target population figure and the next steps towards elected local government for Cwmbran New Town.

I have decided to ask the Corporation to continue its building activities within the limits of the present designated area. I have decided also that it is desirable that the Corporation should include more members with current experience in local government in the area, and I propose to reconstruct it accordingly within the next few months.

I thank the Secretary of State for having, as his Answer reveals, so sensitively responded to the representations of myself, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (Mr. Anderson) and the Cwmbran Council. Could he tell us a little more about the amenity plans to meet the needs of any expansion since clearly, if Cwmbran is to expand, it is urgently necessary that within the limits of the present economic position there should be greater amenities for the people of the new town?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend, who, with my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth, has made strong representations to me on this matter. Amenities are very important. I am now reviewing the matter and there will be further discussions with the authorities concerned, although clearly I know now that I shall not be able to give as much as I should like to give until the economic circumstances are better.

Will my right hon. Friend, who has responded with his usual sympathy to local feeling on this matter, recognise that local people will see this only as a significant interim step on the way to eventual full local self-government in the Cwmbran area?

My hon. Friend is a fellow Methodist and I remind him of the hymn:

"One step enough for me".

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will ensure that public opinion in Cardiff has been fully taken into account before he makes any decision upon the Cardiff primary road programme submitted to him for his approval.

Yes, Sir. The City Council has not yet submitted proposals to me for approval and before I could approve the construction of the primary distributor roads now commonly referred to as the "hook road", I expect it will be necessary to hold a public inquiry.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in both capital cities, Cardiff and London, there is a growing revolt by citizens against the ravages of these urban motorway schemes? Will he consider sympathetically the view which was put to the Minister of Housing and Local Government on behalf of local residents that the public inquiry should be of the new Stansted type under the 1968 Act—a public inquiry commission—rather than the old form of public inquiry, which has too narrow and restricted terms of reference to deal with the problems involved?

I well know that this matter has raised tremendous concern among the people in the City of Cardiff. I will look at my hon. Friend's proposal, but, of course, I cannot commit myself.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what directions he gave to the Welsh Council to consider the local economic and social implications before the Railways Board submitted its proposal that train services between Newport and Hereford and Newport and Gloucester should be discontinued.

The Council was consulted before my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport decided not to give grants in aid of these services and will be consulted again on the proposal to withdraw the local service between Newport and Gloucester. The local service between Newport and Hereford does not involve statutory closures and can be withdrawn by the Railways Board at its discretion.

Does not my hon. Friend recognise that much of the excellent work of the Welsh Office in Monmouthshire can be put at risk by unwise decisions on railways? Is it not ridiculous that the Monmouthshire County Council and the Severnside Survey were not consulted before these decisions were made? Does not this argue for second thoughts and for the Welsh Office to have a much bigger say in these decisions?

As I have already indicated, both the Welsh Council and my right hon. Friend have been consulted, and my hon. Friend has recently put his other points to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport.

Will my hon. Friend appreciate that there is much concern locally about the proposed closure of the Newport to Gloucester line and that a number of hon. Members have made representations to the Minister of Transport about it? Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that her Ministry will now back up those representations which are being made?

I much regret that my hon. Friend should use the phrase "closure of the line", because no such thing is proposed. It is proposed to discontinue local services. While we fully appreciate that this may cause inconvenience and, possibly, hardship, this is a matter which will have to be discussed by the transport users' consultative committee and again by the Welsh Council if the Minister of Transport decides so to proceed. At the moment, all that my right hon. Friend has said is that he will not give a grant.

Will the Minister accept, however, that whether it is the closure of a line or of a service, it is much the same thing to those who are getting their livelihood at Newport and, perhaps, living at Hereford? Is the hon. Lady satisfied that her Office is doing enough with the Ministry of Transport to stop it closing these very important services?

We have, of course, considered the matter very carefully. As to the Newport—Hereford line, the intercity trains will be stopping trains, but some of the local services which were not well patronised will be withdrawn.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, in view of his intention to put forward detailed proposals for legislation based on the organisation outlined in the White Paper, Local Government in Wales, Command Paper No. 3340, if he will also establish a staffing commission at the earliest practicable date.

As the White Paper made clear, it is proposed that the legis- lation should provide for a Welsh Staff Commission. The local authority associations and the staff associations will be consulted about the details in the course of the continuing preparatory work.

I am glad to be reassured on this point by my hon. Friend. Will she also appreciate that to secure the full co-operation of the local Government officers concerned in the reorganisation, it is essential that their security be given the highest possible priority?

I am quite certain that my right hon. Friend has this very much in mind, and he will, of course, be consulting the local authority organisations.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in consultation with Newport Borough Council, he will speed up the road improvements at Malpas Road, Newport, Monmouthshire.

The programme for improving this road was drawn up with Newport County Borough Council and for various reasons, including the time required for statutory procedures and land acquisition, it cannot be shortened.

Will my hon. Friend appreciate that these improvements are causing a great deal of inconvenience to the residents in the area? While this improvement is necessary for the trade and commerce of the town, it has, nevertheless, been suggested locally that the Ml was built in a similar period of time.

The statutory procedures must take their course. I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates that it is necessary to allow time for objections to be received and any necessary public inquiries to be held.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied that the proposed new local government boundaries will establish district councils sufficiently viable to carry out their functions; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. One of the principal objectives of the reorganisation of Welsh local government is to distinguish, at both county and district level, areas of adequate resources. My right hon. Friend is satisfied that his proposals will achieve this.

Would my hon. Friend agree that rateable value per head of population is a useful yardstick to measure the viability of a local authority? Would she not agree that under the present proposals, the Rhondda Borough Council will be the poorest authority in the whole of Wales?

Rateable value is one of many criteria. The quality of the Rhondda in other respects will, I am sure, out-weigh any deficiency in rateable value. I understand that the rateable value of the proposed new district will be greater than that of the present district.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will publish the reports of the Welsh Council, especially those making recommendations on specific pit closures.

It is open to the Council to publish reports on its work subject to any overriding considerations of confidentiality. But advice by the Council to the Government on the effect of individual colliery closures is given on a confidential basis and it would not be appropriate to publish it.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that a pit closure is a severe blow, not only to the miners involved, but to the whole community and that, if the miners are to have confidence in the pit closure programme, it is essential that they be given more information as to the type of advice tendered by the Welsh Council?

The advice of the Welsh Council is only one of the many factors which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Power has to take into account. We are fully aware of and sympathetic to the need for the greatest possible co-operation with the National Union of Mineworkers.

The hon. Lady will be aware that we on this side have pressed her right hon. Friend to be more specific about the Reports of the Welsh Council. In this connection, would the hon. Lady perhaps remind her right hon. Friend of the words of the hymn which we in the Church of Wales use very often:

"Lead, kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom"?

Between them, the hon. Member and my right hon. Friend would make a very good choir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Chairman of the North-East Planning Council has no such inhibitions and that when there have been tentative pit closures in the area, he has made it clear where his council stands? Would not my hon. Friend agree that it would be far better for good democratic government if the same thing applied in Wales?

I am aware that on one occasion such advice was disclosed. Whether that was wise is a matter of opinion.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the bomb explosion at the Royal Air Force station at Pembrey.

I have nothing to add to the statement I made to the Press at the time.

Is the Secretary of State aware that a Royal Air Force man from the Midlands of England was interrogated by the police in connection with this crime and that he has since been kept in a psychiatric ward of a Royal Air Force hospital? Why has the Secretary of State always given the impression that it was impossible for anybody but a Welshman to be responsible? Would he not now apologise to the Welsh people for that slur?

It is monstrous for the hon. Member to pick out an individual and cast a slur on him, as he has done this afternoon. It so happens, according to my advice, that that man was cleared. By common standards of decency, the hon. Member should withdraw the imputation which he has made against one individual from the Royal Air Force.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is more appropriate to show sympathy with the innocent, injured airman, rather than to make this sort of party capital out of the matter?

I think that I may tell the House that overwhelmingly the people of Wales were horrified at what happened to the young warrant officer, and I believe that it changed the atmosphere in Wales. As I told the young man, out of his misfortune some good has come to Wales: the people have realised that the cult of violence is destructive of the whole nation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will publish an economic development plan for Wales.

The economic strategy for Wales has already been set out in "Wales: The Way Ahead".

Is the hon. Lady aware of the speed with which the situation in Wales is deteriorating, with 50,000 fewer men at work in Wales today than there were two years ago? Is she aware that the deflationary package on Friday underlines once again the truth that a Welsh government would find it impossible to make such a mess of the economy of Wales as English Governments do?

I do not accept any of the points made by the hon. Gentleman, and I repeat that the broad strategy has already been set out very forcefully and very wisely in "Wales: The Way Ahead."

Is the hon. Lady aware that what Wales really needs is no more plans but actual economic development?

That is exactly what Wales is getting and I should have thought that the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) would have been delighted at the innumerable announcements made within the last three months about major economic developments in the Principality.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement on the meeting held on 22nd October between officials of his Department and representatives of the County Borough of Reading relating to the reorganisation of secondary education in the borough.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement concerning his negotiations with the Reading Borough Council in respect of its plans for the reorganisation of secondary education.

My officials had a full and useful exchange of views with representatives of the authority, and I am informed that the education committee has now decided to reconstitute its working party on reorganisation to discuss the points raised at the recent meeting.

Can the right hon. Lady confirm, what I think is the case, that this useful exchange of views to which she referred proceeded on the basis that the Secretary of State, under the present law, has no power to enforce upon an authority his reorganisation plans of which the authority disapproves, and that on his own admission the law is unlikely to be changed in the present Parliament?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the proposals which Reading put to us were referred back for discussion, and when these proposals were referred back on 30th May I offered to arrange for discussions to take place between Reading's representatives and my officials, and a meeting was held recently in response to that offer. I have had no complaints whatsoever from the local authority about this, nor about the way in which the discussions were conducted.

Would the right hon. Lady give an assurance that she will not press for the implementation of any scheme of reorganisation till adequate facilities are available for the children of the whole ability range?

It is the Government's view that we should proceed as quickly as possible towards a full scheme of comprehensive reorganisation and we continue to press local authorities to go ahead with such schemes. I recognise that we must have resources as well, but at Reading it was not the resources which were the trouble but the fact that Reading wanted to retain its two grammar schools.

But have not both the right hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend agreed in recent debates that the issue of resources is extremely important here, and have not many authorities, as, for example, Warwickshire only yesterday made it plain that they are perfectly prepared to implement the plan but only when adequate resources become available to do a proper job for the whole ability range?

Yes, we have never pretended that resources are not important, but, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a few—not a lot, but a few—local authorities have been opposed to comprehensive education even if resources were there. In this case Reading wanted to retain its two grammar schools. The right hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, in spite of the fact that we could not go ahead as quickly as we hoped with the building programme, we have another £7 million in each of two years to spend on comprehensive reorganisation, and it means that the schemes due to come into operation in 1968–69 will come into operation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement on the publication, "Comprehensive Education in England and Wales", prepared by the National Foundation for Educational Research, a copy of which has been sent to him.

It analyses the results of a fact-finding exercise in 1966 based on 331 comprehensive schools. A more intensive and up-to-date study is already under way.

While appreciating that this is only an interim report, and that it certainly does not vitiate the increasing educational view that selection at the age of 11 is educationally unwise, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it does not also show that it is necessary for all political parties, before insisting on comprehensive education in all its aspects in every part of the country, to treat it with some considerable caution?

Yes, of course, any educational development needs to be treated with caution. I have looked very carefully at the report. I hope the hon. Gentleman will do me the honour of reading a speech I made yesterday to the National Foundation for Educational Research when, among other things, I sought to put into its right perspective a comment which The Times had made on this subject. Perhaps he will read the article and we can discuss it together.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the greatest difficulty the N.F.E.R. had in drawing up this report was that it was unable to find sufficient genuinely comprehensive schools and not as many statistics as it hoped there would be, and does it not point to the fact that we need rapidly to eliminate grammar schools in the comprehensive areas so that we can have more genuinely comprehensive schools on which to base any research at all?

Yes, that is perfectly true. This report, which because of a number of factors, was rather long delayed, was based on the situation in 1966, so that I think we ought to be very wary about drawing any conclusion from it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now take steps to enable local authorities to make awards to students who are training to become commercial pilots but who are not sponsored by the airline corporations.

Local education authorities already have discretionary powers to do so.

But is the Minister aware that Hertfordshire authority, at any rate, in pursuing a policy which it considers was recommended by her right hon. Friend and making awards to sponsored trainees only, and are not other commercial pilot trainees who are making great financial sacrifices as deserving of university awards as are some university students?

We have certainly not advised authorities not to make awards to unsponsored students. We have simply indicated what we think are the appropriate rates of grant for sponsored students, and that, in the case of unsponsored students, to have wide variations in practice between local authorities would be undesirable. We cannot do more because of the Act of Parliament of 1962.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why his Department's circular 4/66 differentiates between the grant paid to pilots in training at Hamble and those training at other approved flying schools; and if he will make a statement.

At Hamble students pay for their own board and lodging out of their grant. At other flying schools sponsored students have their board and lodging paid for in the composite fee, and so get a smaller personal grant.

But as the courses at all these schools are now the same, does it not seem odd that the students at Hamble get the full university award while students elsewhere get only £156 a year?

The position in fact is exactly the same. Students who are paid £156 a year, now raised to £163, are in exactly the same position as college of education students whose board and lodging are paid for. Other students are in the same position as university students. The intention of both awards is to give exactly the same maintenance and personal help.

Would the hon. Lady look at the whole situation, because 18 qualified pilots who have just finished their training at Hamble are to be employed as traffic clerks at London Airport, which seems an appalling waste—which will go on unless the nationalised airlines get their figures right?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that is basically a question for my colleague. It is a matter for the airlines themselves how many students they will sponsor. It is not a matter for my Department.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to receive and to publish the report of the Arts Council on the Conference on the Arts held at Ditchley Park from 14th to 17th July, 1967.

The report of the conference was circulated on 20th November to all those who attended. Unfortunately, considerable delay has been caused by the difficulties of bringing together an international editorial committee.

As the conference was concerned with Government sponsorship of the arts, may I ask whether the long delay in publishing the report indicates that there is a certain unwillingness in this direction?

On the contrary, I assure the hon. Member that I have a lively vested interest in getting out the report as quickly as possible. I would prefer to tell him privately the source of the delay, but I can assure him it has not come from the Arts Council or from my Department.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations have been made to him by parents and others about the need for increased grants to improve the general condition of primary and secondary school buildings in the Portsmouth area; what consultations he has had with the authorities concerned; and what steps he proposes to improve the situation.

I have received representations about conditions at Aldermoor Road County Primary School, Purbrook, both from the hon. Member and direct from parents. I am in consultation with the Hampshire authority about the situation and will write to the hon. Member.

Is the hon. Lady aware that only the slender opportunity presented to her by her next reply to my supplementary question stands between her and the fury of a thousand Portsmouth mothers? Will she use the influence of her Department to see that something is done in this area?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is one new school in this area included in the 1968–69 programme. I recognise that this is an area of growth were the schools are very full, and I am anxious to help. We are in touch with the local authority, and, of course, we shall have future building programmes.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what requests he has received from angling clubs or their associations for assistance to help meet the increasing demand for this pastime; and what reply he has sent.

Applications for grants have been received from 28 local angling clubs in England and Wales. Grants totalling £36,136 have been offered to 14 clubs, 9 applications are still under consideration and 5 have been refused.

I appreciate the scale of assistance which has already been given, but does my hon. Friend accept that this sport is supported by millions of our fellow citizens, and is worthy of even greater support than that already indicated?

I think it is true to say that there are about 3 million anglers in this country, which means that there are more anglers than there are people who participate in all other sports put together. The scheme is there, we constantly draw attention to its provisions, and it is up to those interested to apply if they wish to come within its provisions.

Does the Minister agree that the greatest help would be given to anglers by the pursuit of a policy of doing away with the pollution of rivers?

I believe this to be the case. It is one reason why the Govern- ment sponsored the National Angling Council and hope to assist it in research precisely towards this end.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will seek powers to accept applications from angling clubs who are displaced by national or local government developments for compensation and assistance in the search for alternative waters.

No. Sir.

Will my hon. Friend consider the problems in industrial areas where stretches of canals used by angling clubs increasingly come under the pressure of development? Will he reconsider his Answer in view of those problems?

No. The scheme is designed for the creation of more sports facilities where they do not already exist. We cannot possibly extend it, especially in these days when in most cases there are powers to pay compensation for the removal of existing facilities.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied, in view of the great demand, that the potential for angling on reservoirs is being fully exploited?

I hope very much that the regional sports councils, in association with the British Waterworks Association and the local authorities are continuously trying to open up new waters for the large number of people who want these opportunities.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what is his policy in regard to financial support for the smaller ballet companies;

During 1967–8, ballet companies receiving subsidies from the Arts Council gave nearly 1,300 performances. Over 900 of these were outside the London area.

Would the right hon. Lady agree that it is disturbing to learn that grants are being withdrawn from some of the smaller ballet companies which do many performances outside London? Will she look at this matter to make sure that as a result ballet performances outside London do not diminish?

I am anxious to see the maximum opportunities outside London, but I would be alarmed if a political Minister were to be the judge in these matters. I am bound to accept the decisions that are made by experts.

Will my right hon. Friend insist that, as a condition of grants, ballet companies should undertake regional tours away from the centres in which they usually perform?

I have given the figures, 900 performances out of 1,300, which show that a great deal of this is being done. We are anxious to stimulate still more activity, but we are at the same time concerned to maintain very high standards.

asked the Prime Minister what proposals he has to transfer responsibility for the Monopolies Commission from the Board of Trade to the Department of Employment and Productivity.

None, Sir.

In that case will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to assert that there is not the slightest danger that the National Board for Prices and Incomes will be given any authority over the Monopolies Commission, because the power of Mr. Aubrey Jones has increased, is increasing and ought to he diminished?

I deplore the lack of gallantry on the part of the hon. Gentleman about one of his former Conservative Ministers. I would have thought that, in the period since he became non-political, he has rendered very great service to this country. In reply to the first part of the question, I think it would be generally agreed that the Monopolies Commission properly remains the responsibility of the Board of Trade.

Putting politics to one side, will not the Prime Minister agree that there is growing anxiety in the trade union movement about the need for a more civilised way to deal with redundancy procedures arising from mergers and takeovers? This would enable a more logical basis to be used for looking at mergers before they take place, and also the redundancies arising from them.

My hon. Friend will know that I answered a Question, I think of his, on that point some months ago, following which something in the nature of a code of conduct has been worked out in relation to redundancy procedures when mergers take place. In the latest big merger, that of English Electric and G.E.C., the new code was invoked and was regarded as generally satisfactory.

Since one problem surrounding the Monopolies Commission is the long delay that affects matters referred to the Commission, will the Prime Minister say when a statement from the Government will be made on the Commission's Report on man-made fibres? Is he aware that this Report has now been in the Minister's hands for nearly nine months and that we still have not had a squeak from him?

I will see that my right hon. Friend takes note of the question of the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that my right hon. Friend has said in the context of delays with regard to the Monopolies Commission Reports that he is urgently studying the matter of possible reforms in Monopolies Commission procedure and will before long make a statement in the House.

asked the Prime Minister when he will declare the first national dividend.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave on 5th November, 1968, to a Question by my hon Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. John Fraser).—[Vol. 772, c. 62.]

Is the Prime Minister aware that, if there were to be a national dividend, under the policies his Government are pursuing, it would indeed be an economic miracle——

rose——

Order. The hon. Gentleman must not interrupt his hon. Friend's supplementary question.

Will the Prime Minister pay us an interim dividend by promising to be entirely frank in future about the state of the economy, including the value of the £ in our pockets?

The hon. Gentleman seems to be in a bit of a rut. In reply to the first part of his question, he will know that the reference to the national dividend was in the context of the T.U.C. proposals in their annual report on how much could be afforded on wages. We had one discussion with them last year on the national dividend involved. We shall shortly be having further discussions. With regard to his suggestion of frankness about the state of the economy, I would refer the hon. Gentleman to a significant article in The Times Business News this morning, which, taking apart the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, proved point by point that his statistics were as "phoney" as his arguments.

Does it not depend entirely on how one measures the national dividend? If it is in well-being, the people are better off than ever they were. If it is a matter of having committed any fault in this regard, is my right hon. Friend aware that the only one that he and his Government have committed is that they did too much too soon, and people spent the dividend before it was earned?

My right hon. Friend has put a serious Question, and I agree with him. As for the definition of the national dividend and the speech from which the phrase was culled by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), it referred to the amount of money which can be afforded for wages, salaries and other income payments out of the increase in productivity. Unfortunately, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have so consistently opposed an incomes policy that they have nothing to contribute to this debate.

Did not the right hon. Gentleman declare a sort of national dividend on 19th November, 1967, in his memorable broadcast on devaluation, in which he said that the £ here in Britain, or in our pockets or in our purses or in the banks, has not been devalued? It was wonderful.

The hon. and gallant Gentleman will recall that I suggested to his right hon. and hon. Friends the other day that they should read the actual text of that broadcast. I am not sure that that is advice which I could give him.

Will my right hon. Friend tell us what was the state of the economy in 1964 when he took over the Administration from the Conservatives?

Yes, Sir. We have had ample opportunity for debating that. The significant fact was that the real state of the economy was concealed throughout the election which preceded it.

asked the Prime Minister what machinery he has now established in his administration for coordinating Ministerial speeches in the country.

I dealt with this on Tuesday, Sir, in reply to an almost identical Question from the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Gordon Campbell).—[Vol. 774. c. 298.]

Is the Prime Minister aware that he must be under a misapprehension? Would it not avoid future uncertainty about the duties of the Paymaster-General, as the Cabinet's kennel-maid, if the Prime Minister could arrange for the fine print in her contract to be leaked to the House?

I think that a lot of confusion would be avoided if the hon. Gentleman read the Answers given on 24th October and 12th November.

I have read them.

Would my right hon. Friend consider extending this advisory service to include Questions tabled by right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite? Is he aware that some of us are sick of the same hoary old Questions week after week from half-wits, of whom the hon. Gentleman is a classic example?

No, Sir. Personally, I am not sick of those Questions, despite their repetitious character. What is serious is that hon. Gentlemen opposite who know that a Question has been answered on a number of occasions before are wasting the time of the House and of hon. Members who may have more serious Questions to ask.

Is the Prime Minister aware that, as he has given the Paymaster-General, in addition to the work of coordinating Ministerial speeches, the responsibility for answering for him as Minister for the Civil Service, we have had the experience in which both sides of the House are dissatisfied because the right hon. Lady finds herself unable to answer for herself? Can he look at this seriously and see whether the position can be adjusted?

That is a fair question, and, when a possible change in the Questions order allows my right hon. Friend to answer for herself, the right hon. Gentleman will find that she will be more than capable of doing it. I agree that yesterday's experience did not work out very well. It was as a result of agreement between the usual channels as to her answering of Questions, and I am sure that the right way would be for the usual channels to get together and consider whether the new Questions order after Christmas should not provide different arrangements so that she can answer Civil Service Questions without derogating from her ability to answer others.

asked the Prime Minister what representations he has received from Commonwealth Prime Ministers concerning the multilateral nature of the British commitment to Nibmar in Rhodesia; and what replies he has sent.

My hon. Friend will realise that exchanges between Commonwealth Governments must remain confidential.

Will my right hon. Friend not agree that there is a good deal of concern because the Government have had to be facing in two directions at once with their commitment both to Nibmar and the "Fearless" proposals? Will he clarify the issue by withdrawing the "Fearless" proposals?

No, Sir. We shall not withdraw the proposals, and I explained at great length our reasons for putting forward the "Fearless" proposals and leaving them for acceptance. As for Nibmar, my hon. Friend is well aware of the position as I have explained it, though I know that he does not agree with it. We should need to feel that there had been a substantial change of circumstances to withdraw the Nibmar commitment.

Will the Prime Minister bear in mind that the vast majority of our people hope that he will continue with his patient efforts to get an honourable settlement in Rhodesia and not give way to pressures that may lead to bloodshed in that country?

The pressures which could lead to bloodshed are those which have led, at any rate for the time being, to the rejection of the "Fearless" proposals. This creates an extremely dangerous situation of which the whole House is aware, despite our different views about how we should now go forward. He was right to lay stress on an "honourable" settlement. We shall not be prepared to conclude any agreement which does not thoroughly fulfil the six principles.

Referring to my right hon. Friend's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd), in the event or likelihood of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers rejecting the "Fearless" proposals as not representing those substantial changes regarded by my right hon. Friend as necessary to justify a retreat from Nibmar, would he recommit this House and the country to the Nibmar decision and withdraw the "Fearless" proposals?

My hon. Friend's question is a hypothetical one and does not recognise entirely the nature of Commonwealth conferences, which seek as far as possible to proceed by agreement. We do not take votes. I am aware that there will be strong feeling on Rhodesia and that this may be reflected in our discussions—and will be. I hope that we shall not spend eight days this time on Rhodesia, which is a British responsibility and, at the same time, not have even half an hour to discuss important issues of world affairs covering other parts of Africa and the wider world.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will relax the rule relating to disclosure of events concerned with Government activities from 30 to 20 years.

No, Sir. The Public Records Act, 1967, reduced from 50 to 30 years the period during which public records are, in general, not available for public inspection. No new factor has arisen since the passage of that Act to warrant a further reduction in the closed period.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some eminent political personalities, some deceased and others still alive, have in their publications overcome the restriction by not making direct reference to Cabinet papers but by talking about exposed Cabinet activities? Has not this restriction become a farce? Why should not anyone associated with Cabinet matters 20 years ago expose many of the events that occurred?

My right hon. Friend has a point. There have been memoirs, autobiographies and similar works published. There was one last year, I think, which seriously broke all the conventions of collective responsibility and the usual rules and restrictions applied to such publications. I can tell my right hon. Friend that his first Ministerial work is already free from them, because that was in the Government more than 30 years ago. But I had enough difficulty securing agreement on the re- duction to 30 years against the recommendation of the Committee from 50 to 40. He would probably find it difficult to get the all-party agreement which I think is essential and right for a proposal of the kind that he puts forward.

Will the Prime Minister reveal not what has been going on in the last 20 years but what has been happening in the last seven days?

I thought that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his statement in the House on Monday, set out a full account of the Bonn Conference and of the Basle Conference which preceded it.

asked the Prime Minister if he will invite the Common Market Prime Ministers to a conference in London.

I have no plans to do so at present.

But as the net cost to the United Kingdom balance of payments of applying the Common Market agricultural arrangements next year is likely to be in the nature of £350 million, can we really afford to go into the Common Market? As economic protectionism is the order of the day now in so many countries, is this not just the moment for the Prime Minister to gather together these people and to suggest a much wider free trade association?

I understand the hon. Gentleman's position on these matters. He has been very consistent in these questions—more than, indeed, have many of us—but the Government and the House have not accepted the force of these arguments. We have always recognised a great difficulty about financing the agricultural programme. There is a growth of agricultural protectionism on the part of the Common Market countries, which is causing concern here as well as elsewhere, and that must be dealt with. But I am not sure that a Common Market Prime Ministers' conference in London would be the right answer.

Since the Foreign Secretary three weeks ago at The Hague was sympathetic to the idea of a very wide conference, will the Prime Minister consider a conference not just of the Six and us, but of the other applicants for entry into the Common Market, and take a wider European view?

Yes. We shall be happy to consider this. Indeed, we put forward this proposal in Vienna as long ago as 1965. W.E.U. provides an excellent forum for discussion between, at any rate, most of the E.F.T.A. countries and the Common Market countries, but up to now the W.E.U. forum has not been treated with the same urgency by the French as by other European countries. We should like to have a discussion of the kind that my right hon. Friend suggests.

Will the Prime Minister ensure that in the event of any such conference, whatever the scope of those attending, room will be found on the agenda for a discussion on common agricultural policy and its financial implications as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten)?

The absence of such a conference has not prevented us from raising the matter in a number of areas and places with Common Market countries. But since I have no plans to set up such a conference, as I said in answer to the original Question, it is obviously a little premature to start answering the right hon. Gentleman's question about what will be on the agenda of such a conference.

If the Prime Minister does not accept the estimate given by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) about the cost to the British balance of payments, may I ask whether he can give us the Government's latest official estimate?

We have not varied the estimate since the one drawn up in the Government of which my right hon. Friend was a Member.

rose——

Order. I remind the House that we have two Private Notice Questions, business questions and a statement from the Minister of Defence for Administration before we come to the business of the day. I hope that the House will co-operate with me in getting through these various items fairly speedily.