asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department which prisons are to be upgraded during the next financial years; and what improvements will be carried out.

I would refer my hon. Friend to what I said in the debate in the House on 14th November.

Having given a considerable list of improvements to be made, can my right hon. Friend say whether they will provide for the more effective use of prison officers' time by, for example, the introduction of mechanical equipment, and will these improvements remove the degrading system of slopping out?

I certainly hope that the improvements which are to be made will include such things as better plant and machinery, workshops and power supplies, and that consideration will be given to the installation of electrical locking and unlocking systems, which would overcome the difficulty raised in the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to be able to make a statement about the future use of Holloway Prison.

I hope to make a statement early next week.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that illuminating Answer. Is he aware that many of us are very concerned about the general treatment of women offenders and that if he could close Holloway that would be a great step forward?

I shall hope to put Holloway Prison in a wider context; namely, I would like to be able to produce a comprehensive plan for the reshaping of the system of female penal establishments in England and Wales. I hope that my hon. Friend will find that reply satisfactory.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he will undertake an examination of the implications of the recommendations of the Seebohm Committee as they affect the probation and after-care service; and if he will make a statement.

Probation and aftercare service organisations are among the interested bodies which have been invited to furnish views on the Seebohm Committee's Report. I shall be studying the relevant recommendations in the Report in the light of their comments.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that Answer. Is he aware that the Seebohm Committee expressed doubt about the division of responsibility for the 14 to 17 age group between local authorities and probation officers and suggested that some probation officers would have to be transferred? Is he aware that it would be of great help to local authorities which are at present assessing their needs and services to know of my right hon. Friend's intentions as soon as possible?

Yes, Sir. I appreciate that, and, of course, other Ministers are concerned with this matter. Whatever the final conclusions may be, I doubt whether there is likely to be much scope for transferring probation staff to other services, in view of the additional responsibilities which they have taken on in recent years; for example, in respect of after-care and parole.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that there is great concern at the proposal that all children under 14 should be removed from any possible care of the probation services and put under the care of local authorities? Will he look at this matter again?

I am not aware that there is great concern about this, although I know that there is a division of view on the subject. I believe that the preponderant view is in favour of the White Paper proposals.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has by legislation or otherwise to improve race relations in the country.

The Race Relations Act came into operation on 26th November. The new Community Relations Commission is now in being. The Government will continue to encourage it and to support administrative and voluntary action to improve community relations in his country. The financial provision to be made under the Local Government Grants (Social Need) Bill to areas of special social need will also be of help for this purpose.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that Answer. Would he agree that the position on race relations has considerably worsened in the last few months because of the violent and inflamatory speeches of the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton. South-West (Mr. Powell)? Is he aware that some of us will continue to fight against some of the evil proposals on race that are coming from that right hon. Gentleman who, in this respect, is showing himself to be a wretched demagogue?

Extremism of this sort does not help the cause of race relations, whether it be expressed by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Powell)—for whose views the leaders of the opposition parties as well as the Prime Minister have expressed detestation—or by those who, for example, support Black Power. The constructive way forward in this matter is represented by the kind of measures which the Government have placed on the Statute Book with the assent of the whole House.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that further legislation on this subject might seriously aggravate the position, as the last legislation has done, and might make matters very much worse?

I do not know to what legislation the hon. Gentleman is referring. There is no indication that the Race Relations Act, the Community Relations Commission or the Local Government Grants (Social Need) Bill will have any of the consequences to which he refers.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will obtain a report from the chief constable on the action taken to reduce crimes of vice traffic in Birmingham, particularly in Balsall Heath and parts of Moseley.

I understand from the Chief Constable that a special squad of experienced detectives was set up early this year to deal with offences of this nature in the city, and that, partly as a result, there has been an increase in the number of prosecutions for soliciting, brothel-keeping and living on immoral earnings.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply clarifying the position, but is he not aware that enforcement is still a long way from anything like being effective? Is he aware that in one case a European immigrant was heavily fined but not recommended for deportation, although this probably was by no means his first offence?

So far as the hon. Member suggests that there may be any connection between immigration and this problem, I should say that where immigrants form a large proportion of the population obviously they reflect the characteristics of that area both good and bad. There is no evidence whatever to suggest that the incidence of this traffic among immigrants is greater than it is among the indigenous population.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will seek to legalise brothels.

No, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that I thoroughly agree with him and hope that that does not come about; but the fact remains that something must be done in the Midlands to help the situation, which has got very bad indeed?

I do not think there is anything very much I could say which would help the situation.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this whole question was investigated most carefully before the war by a committee of the League of Nations and the suggestion was definitely exploded and turned down?

Yes, Sir, and it has been studied since by the Wolfenden Committee. I am sure the House will be interested to note that only two European countries at the moment have a system of tolerance in this connection. Of the countries of the world, 19 have a system of tolerance against 119 which have a system of total abolition.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what was the result of the further tests of C.S. gas announced on 22nd July, 1968; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence tells me that the results of the tests have not yet been fully analysed.

Will my hon. Friend ask the Minister of Defence, when the results have been analysed, to cause them to be published in detail in some learned or scientific journal?

That is a matter which will have to be left to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence. The trend of the tests, I understand, has not disclosed any grounds for disquiet.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what conclusion has been reached by the Central Conference of Chief Constables on the report about the types of gun used to discharge devices containing C.S. gas; and if he will make a statement.

Chief officers of police have accepted the desirability of equipping their forces with a gun designed specially for the discharge of C.S. cartridges against armed besieged criminals.

If, as now appears to be the case, the existing type of gun used is insufficiently accurate, will my hon. Friend take immediate steps for the withdrawal of those now held by the police?

I think that in time this will follow. I should explain that the Verey pistol at present used by most police forces for the discharge of C.S. cartridges has proved insufficiently accurate for dealing with this type of criminal. A working party has examined many types of weapons, including those of Messrs. Webley and Scott.

Is my right hon. Friend convinced that in all circumstances C.S. gas is non-lethal?

There does not seem to be any definite evidence to the contrary.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will seek to revise the procedure of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board with regard to appeals.

I should be glad to hear of any particular difficulty to which the present appeal procedure gives rise.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that, so long as awards are made on a common law basis by a panel of lawyers, there should be a built-in right of appeal so that the public can see that the scheme is being administered fairly?

This scheme operates on an ex gratia basis and deals with confidential claims in an informal way. In the circumstances I doubt very much whether an appeal procedure would be appropriate, but this is a matter which can be considered by the body under the reviewing system.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will consider changing the composition of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board to include laymen and experts.

As stated on 20th November in reply to a Question by the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osbornel, legal qualification is desirable in members of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board since the basis of the scale of compensation is common law damages. The matter will, however, be looked at again when the operation of the scheme is reviewed.

As the scheme is meant to be informal, should it not be seen to be informal? Should there not be laymen and experts on the Board so that those who come before it may feel that they are treated fairly? Since there is no right of appeal, should not this be the case?

I am afraid I do not agree. The members of the Board have to decide, first, whether or not a criminal offence has been committed, and secondly, whether the application is bona fide and whether the applicant is blameworthy and find what the quantum of damages should be. These are matters for lawyers to determine. Medical evidence can be brought and assessors can be brought into the consultation.

Will my hon. Friend institute a wider study as to the feasibility of reparation and restitution for the victims of crimes?

That is rather different from the issues arising from the Question, but it is a matter which may be studied.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what criteria Her Majesty's Government used in selecting areas for the increase of nursery education as part of its urban aid programme.

The criteria for selecting authorities for the first phase of the urban programme were not related to educational needs as such, but were designed to show in which local authority areas urgent social need was to be found. Local authorities qualified under the criteria if they had:

Will my hon. Friend look at the question of social needs again in towns such as Great Yarmouth, where a large number of married women go to work and can find employment more easily than men, where there is a problem and a need for nursery schools and for the definition of social needs to be extended?

I agree that there is this wider problem of responsibility for my right hon. Friend for the urban aid programme. On the aspect which my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Dr. Gray) has raised, he should table a Question to the Secretary of State for the Department of Education and Science.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will list the current allowances and emoluments payable to special constables and the changes in these in the last 10 years.

As the Answer is in the form of a tabular statement, I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Would the Minister not agree that the allowances are such that many special constables are out of pocket in the performance of their duties? In view of the great services which they render to the community, will the hon. Gentleman look at this matter urgently as soon as economic circumstances permit?

This is a matter which has to be kept continuously under review, but I would not agree, if that is

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the statistics of injuries sustained by members of the public on each of the past five Guy Fawkes nights; and whether he will give the details of the serious injuries sustained by members of the public services, including police and firemen.

Particulars of firework accidents during the years 1962–67, which do not distinguish injuries to members of the public services, were given in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) on 7th March. The corresponding figures for 1968 are not yet available.—[Vol. 760, c. 131–2.]

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the vandalism which so often arises on Guy Fawkes night and which is a hazard, particularly to firemen who are called out to put out bonfires which become a hazard to life and limb, is a serious matter and that it is time for the Ministry to consider means of protecting public servants from the dangers to which they are exposed?

I have made inquiries from the Fire Service Inspectorate and from the Police Department, and I am told that the number of such injuries is negligible. If my hon. Friend has a particular case in mind, perhaps he will let me know.

Will hon. Gentlemen give us an assurance that he will take no steps to diminish the tributes paid to Guy Fawkes in his endeavours to reform Parliament?

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has had from the hospital authorities regarding a ban on the sale of fireworks to the general public.

None recently.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that very considerable publicity has rightly been given to the accidents and injuries sustained, particularly by children? Did my hon. Friend see a television programme recently which highlighted the dangers? Has not the time come to restrict some of the fireworks which are at present being sold to the general public, including children?

I think that that aspect comes up in a later Question. Reverting to my Answer that I have received no representations, I want to make it clear that many hospitals feel strongly about this. There is a danger that because I said "None" large numbers of people would be prompted to write. I am aware of feelings on this.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what further measures he is proposing to take to reduce the number of accidents occasioned to children by fireworks each year on 5th November.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will review the existing legislation governing the sale of fireworks in the light of his Department's study of fireworks casualties.

During the period 1962 to 1967, the number of accidents has fallen by some 29 per cent. and the number of serious injuries by some two-thirds. The Home Office will keep safety precautions under continuous examination in consultation with the trade; safety publicity will continue to be issued; and shopkeepers will again be reminded of their statutory obligations relating to sale and storage. I am not at present satisfied that proposals to amend the law would be justified.

I welcome this decline in the number of accidents, but does not my hon. Friend agree that there are still far too many accidents to young children? Will he reconsider strengthening the law against the private manufacture of fireworks and also placing more restrictions on the sale of certain kinds of fireworks which cause most of the accidents?

I am continuously considering the matter. I have not yet received the accident statistics for this year. An examination of the question of the age below which sale should not be permitted, namely, 13, shows that a large number of accidents are sustained by children below the age of 13, who are not allowed to buy fireworks anyway. Legislation is extremely difficult in this respect.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Littlewood Committee.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in view of the lack of action in connection with the Littlewood Report, if he will now introduce legislation to implement the Report's recommendations.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now take steps to implement the recommendations of the Littlewood Committee on Experiments on Animals.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Littlewood Committee.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will now introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Littlewood Committee on experiments on animals.

I am not in a position to add to the reply given on 7th November to a Question on this subject by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Bessell.—[Vol. 772, c. 138.]

Why are the Government dragging their feet with regard to implementing the recommendations of this Committee? How can they be satisfied with the present conditions?

It is not a question of dragging feet. Since the receipt of the Report a large number of organisations have had to be consulted. There are also wider aspects involved in this Report. As the last legislation was nearly 100 years ago, it is important to try to secure that any legislation arising on this Report is capable of lasting for another 100 years.

Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that there are millions of animal lovers throughout the country who want speedy implementation of this Report, many of them in my constituency? Will he find time for legislation by persuading his colleagues in the Government to drop some of their more pernicious proposals, such as the proposal for the reform of the House of Lords and facilitating the passage of the equally pernicious Divorce Reform Bill?

Various legislation is supported in different parts of the House. Most of us see the need for improvement in this respect. The Government will act as soon as possible.

Is not the Minister aware that there is grave concern and strong feelings about this matter? The Report has been lying on the table a long time. As the Government are finding time for all sorts of Measures, even in the middle of the night—or perhaps we shall have them in the morning; we do not know—cannot they find time for this?

I agree that there are strong feelings. There are equally strong feelings in many quarters as to whether fox hunting should be allowed.

Can I add all-party support to my constituent the hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas)? Does not my hon. Friend feel that public men may in future be very reluctant to give up their time to sitting on public committees if years pass before non-controversial findings are implemented?

There are wider aspects to this matter than those dealt with in the Report. I am aware of the feeling which is raised on this matter.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of those replies, I will raise the matter again.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many registered drug addicts there are at present.

Drug addicts are not registered, but persons found or suspected by their medical practitioners to be addicted to manufactured narcotic drugs are notified to the Chief Medical Officer of the Home Office. Since 22nd February, 1968, 2,479 such persons have been notified.

Is the Secretary of State satisfied that there is sufficient supervision of these people, who legally can be in possession of this type of drug, to ensure that they do not do what we read about in the Press from time to time, namely, use the drugs on other people and so increase the number of addicts?

I would not care to say that I was satisfied, because that might be regarded as complacent. I think that the recent Regulations have had a sub- stantial impact on this problem. I think that it is a serious problem.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us are very concerned about the increase in hard drug-taking among young people? Will he make representations to the Secretary of State for Social Services about the closure of pioneering treatment centres such as the Salter Unit, which was doing excellent work?

I do not think that I should make such representations, because I fear that I am not well acquainted with that unit. Perhaps my hon. Friend will table a Question to the Secretary of State for Social Services.

Am I not right in thinking that the figure which the right hon. Gentleman has now given the House represents a very sharp increase on previous figures? If so, can he tell the House what the causes of the sharp increase are, in his view, and how he proposes to deal with it?

Yes; it represents a very sharp increase, because the new Regulations were designed to produce much more information about those who were addicted to or who were taking manufactured narcotic drugs than was available before. To this extent we have uncovered a great many more people. Perhaps, although I would not want to be definite about this, we are now getting a grip of the total size of the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, as a matter of urgency, he will ask the Holroyd Committee on Fire Prevention for their report.

The Committee is fully aware of the importance of its fire prevention work, but its terms of reference are not confined to this subject and its report will have to be considered as a whole. I have recently seen Sir Ronald Holroyd and am satisfied that the Committee is pursuing its inquiries with all reasonable speed.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. He will recall the recent disastrous fire in Glasgow, which caused loss of life, and several incidents since. In view of the need for uniformity in the inspection of factories and warehouses, as between the Factories Acts and the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act, will he give an assurance that he will continue to press the Committee for its report and find an early place for it in the legislative programme?

I discovered when I spoke to Sir Ronald Holroyd, who came to see me, that he was fully aware of the anxiety felt in the House about recent fires. My hon. Friend, who asked about this matter previously, will know that there is to be a public inquiry before a sheriff and a jury into the recent Glasgow warehouse fire, which no doubt can take into account what is being done.

Was the Secretary of State able to elicit from Sir Ronald when the Committee was likely to report, because I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that many reforms within the fire service are being held up pending the Committee's report, which is now long awaited?

Yes; Sir Ronald gave me an indication as to when he thought the report could be made.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to review the experiment on British Standard Time after 12 months instead of after three years.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 5th December to a Question by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mrs. Ewing).—[Vol. 774, c. 549–50.]

Is the Home Secretary aware how unpopular this experiment is, and will he say what criteria he will use to judge the experiment? How does he evaluate public opinion, and will he pay particular regard to opinion in the northern part of Britain?

I am aware that there is a great deal of feeling about it, and on both sides. I am receiving a fair amount of correspondence asking that I should, in no circumstances, alter the existing experiment. This goes to show the wisdom of having a prolonged period of experiment so that people may make up their minds in the light of the period during which it runs. As to the criteria which we use, obviously, information which will be available at the end of this winter on, for instance, road accidents will be a relevant factor.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that, in considering this matter, he will look also into the number of accidents likely to take place in the building and other outdoor industries as a result of the change? Also, will he look at the matter again since there is need for a great amount of additional light, especially in certain quarters in Northern Ireland?

My hon. Friend raises a valuable point in relation to accidents in industry. Clearly, that is something which has to be taken into account. As regards Northern Ireland, I do not want to trespass on that ground today.

Has any of the correspondence which the right hon. Gentleman mentions come from Scotland? Second, would it be possible for Scotland to follow the example of Stornoway Town Council and go back to G.M.T?

The legislation does not provide for that at present. I recall letters in favour of the experiment from the North of England, but I cannot say that I recall any from Scotland.

Will my right hon. Friend take it that I have received at least one letter from a business firm in Scotland saying that the experiment ought to continue because it is of great advantage to that firm in its export drive, and does he recall that in the vote on the issue only 69 right hon. and hon. Members opposite voted against the experiment?

My hon. Friend's statistics are usually better than mine, and I am sure that he is right. I think that it would be a misfortune if this became a party issue. I have explained on more than one occasion that the experiment was undertaken after a great deal of consultation. The House should allow it to have a free run for some time so that people may make up their minds.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that we have never made a party issue of it, since many of my right hon. and hon. Friends were, for once, on this issue as silly as the Government?

Will the Home Secretary give an assurance that, whatever conclusion he reaches or whether or not he is ready to reach a conclusion at the end of this winter, the House of Commons will in the present Session have an opportunity to express an opinion on the matter on a free vote on both sides?

No, Sir; that is not a question for me.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what will be the form of the review of British Standard Time to be undertaken after this winter.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to a Question by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mrs. Ewing) on 5th December.—[Vol. 774, c. 549–50.]

As the Home Secretary announced in a speech in Scotland that there would be a review of this winter, will he be prepared to cancel the experiment if the results show that it is desirable to do so after considering not only road accidents but all the difficulties for industries and the public?

Not in advance of the end of the experimental period.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate he has made of the cost, to local authorities and to private individuals, respectively, of the introduction of British Standard Time and measures necessitated by it to reduce road accidents.

The factors involved are too various to enable any useful estimate to be made.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that local authorities in Scotland and the North of England have been put to considerable additional expense by this grotesque and unnecessary Measure? Will he ensure that ratepayers are not forced to compound the folly of the Government in this matter?

I forbear from associating the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) with the folly, as he associated himself with it. The hon. Gentleman has already heard my replies to questions on the subject this afternoon. I have nothing to add to what I said then.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Scottish Tories wanted to get up very early this morning to study the trade returns?

I was hoping that some hon. Gentleman would congratulate the nation on last month's trading figures.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he plans to invite each of the political parties, including minority parties, to nominate members for inclusion on the Constitutional Commission.

No, Sir. I am very ready to consider suggestions, but I am not proceeding by inviting nominated representatives as such.

Is it not desirable that all political parties should have a chance of fully expressing their views either through being members of the Commission itself or in giving evidence to it, written or oral?

Yes, Sir; I regard it as important that every political party should submit evidence, whether oral or written, though it is not for me at this stage to say whether they should be represented on the Commission. I hope, also, that the chairman will decide to take evidence in public so that the debate may continue and people may know exactly what propositions are being advanced.

Is the right hon. Gentleman able to say at this point how many Scots domiciled in Scotland will be on the Commission? Second, does he propose to make a take-over bid for some of the personnel of the Tory commission?

I cannot say at this stage how many Scots there will be on the Commission, because this will be a matter on which the Government would wish to consult the chairman when he is appointed. As regards the Conservative commission, we should be willing to look at everyone on his or her merits. I do not know whether any of them would be qualified on those grounds.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the total number of immigration officers dealing specifically with Asian, African or West Indian immigrants; how many of them have served in the countries from which immigrants of those races mostly come; and how many speak the relevant Asian or African language.

No immigration officers deal specifically with Asian, African or West Indian immigrants. The other parts of the Question do not, therefore, arise.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there are about 10,000 former Government servants who have worked in the countries mentioned in the Question? Does he not appreciate that making proper use of their ability in the relevant languages could be of considerable value?

I ask the hon. Gentleman to look at the numbers of Commonwealth immigrants from Asia, Africa and the West Indies, who form only a small proportion of the total number of people entering this country every year. I could give him a list of immigration officers who have been trained in Urdu and other languages and of the courses which take place. We consider that we have sufficient people who can speak the languages to meet the requirements of the relatively small problem.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation requiring anyone proposing to move explosive or inflammable substances by road to inform the police authorities in advance, with a view to advice on routes and the availability of safety precautions.

Existing controls over the conveyance by road of explosives and inflammable substances are designed to ensure that the load is safely-packed for carriage under normal road and traffic conditions. I doubt that my hon. Friend's suggestion would be practicable, but I shall arrange for it to be considered by the Standing Advisory Committee on Dangerous Substances.

I thank my hon. Friend for that Answer, but does he appreciate that the Question relates not to packing but to routes? There have been some disturbing near-misses. Will he assure us that we shall not have to wait for a major tragedy before those who undertake hazardous operations are reminded of their responsibilities?

There are great problems here, as I discovered when I looked into the matter. I prefer to obtain advice from experts on such a question, and I shall look at their advice.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what number of immigrant dependants he estimates will arrive in the United Kingdom on the basis of 5,000 Commonwealth voucher holders being admitted in 1969.

Past experience—which may not be conclusive—suggests that for every Commonwealth voucher holder three or four dependants may, on average, come to the United Kingdom, their arrival being spread over the eight to ten years following that of the voucher holder.

If about 20,000 immigrant dependants are expected following the 5,000 expected next year, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the Treasury and the Ministry of Housing that they must build the equivalent of a reasonably-sized town in this country every year to look after these immigrants who are coming in?

I have no doubt that the appropriate Ministries will take the matter into account. It would be necessary also to ensure that the firms which ask for these workers have sufficient labour, since most of the people who come here now come at the direct request of a firm which, presumably, needs their labour.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, in order that we may all know what we are talking about when we discuss the future and attempt to prophesy numbers, there is a case for attempting to evaluate rather more scientifically what the true position is?

I am able to give the information which I have given to the House today because three surveys of passenger traffic arriving were carried out during separate periods of 14 days in May, August and November this year. I shall continue to assemble such facts as I can.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will take steps to relate the date of admission of immigrant dependants to the date of entry of the voucher holder.

I am not clear what the hon. Member has in mind, but I have no plans to limit the entry of dependants to those accompanying a voucher holder.

As about 50,000 dependants are coming in at the present rate, would it not make a more orderly arrangement for the future if those immigrant voucher holders who have been here several years could now have priority by date over the ones who have just arrived? Would not that make it possible for the country to arrange a more orderly immigration programme and building programme for the future?

If that is a device for preventing families from accompanying voucher holders who arrive now, it would interfere with the statutory entitlement of dependants, which does not accord with the policy of the hon. Gentleman's party or that of the Government.

Does the Home Secretary appreciate that many people relate 50,000 dependants coming in this year to the figure of 5,000 voucher holders and arrive at a ratio of 10 to one? What can my right hon. Friend do to balance this completely misleading picture?

Answer the Questions which are put down, as I have today. I am grateful to have these Questions put to me, since they enable me to put the matter in proportion and point out that there may be three or four dependants arriving per voucher holder over a period of eight to 10 years.

I do not want to engage in argument on this point across the Floor of the House now. Would the right hon. Gentleman be kind enough to re-examine his reply that the policy of the Opposition party is inconsistent with the statutory obligations, and let me know the results of his investigation?

No, Sir. I am quite clear what the official policy of the party opposite is. I am not sure about the unofficial policies advanced by several hon. Gentlemen.

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that my question related to the official policy.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) if he will direct the ex-officio trustees to ensure that the Port of London Authority Police are included in the benefits from and donations to the Police Dependants Trust;

My right hon. Friend has no power to give directions to the trustees. They are responsible for the administration of the trust.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it was all decided in his Department? I have here correspondence from his Department dealing exactly with this matter. Will he now continue the responsibility of his Department to look into this very unfortunate matter when the public are asked for donations without disclosure of the full facts?

I do not think that there is any doubt about the objects of the Trust. At the inaugural meeting in August, 1966, its founder decided to keep the scope of the Trust within reasonable bounds and to comply with the wishes of those who had made donations, that such bodies as the British Transport Police, the Airport Police and the Port of London Authority Police should be excluded.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why he has prohibited Mr. Ronald Hubbard, his wife and daughter from entering this country as visitors.

Consistently with the statement made by my right hon. Friend the then Minister of Health on 25th July, I decided that Mr. L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, should not be admitted to the United Kingdom. If other members of his family wish to visit this country, they should apply to the appropriate British representative overseas, and any application would be considered in the light of all the relevant information.

If Mr. Ronald Hubbard has no criminal record, why should he be excluded for his religious and philosophical views? How many other individual scientologists is my hon. Friend excluding in this way? Does he agree that his action is a blow to the traditional view of civil liberties in this country?

No, Sir, and I advise my hon. Friend to read what my right hon. Friend the former Minister of Health said on 25th July.

Does not the Minister agree that it would be better for the Government to institute a public inquiry into Scientology and everything appertaining to it?

That is a matter not for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary but for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will designate an existing junior Minister as Minister with special responsibilities for forestry.

Ministerial responsibility for forestry rests in England with the Minister of Agriculture, and in Scotland and Wales with the respective Secretaries of State. Each of my right hon. Friends has, however, designated one of his junior Ministers to take a special interest in forestry matters.

As imports of timber and paper pulp now exceed in value the exports of the motor industry, is not there an urgent need for a study of import substitution? Which Department would be responsible for such a study—the Board of Trade, the D.E.A. or the Treasury?

It is a matter for the general responsibility of the Government. This is one of the factors—another is the need for economic development in the Highlands and Islands—which has led us to increase the planting programme for the Forestry Commission.

Is the Prime Minister aware that timber imports this year are running at the rate of £630 million? Does not he think that in terms of import substitution much more attention should be paid to this very serious matter by all the Departments and Ministers concerned, including the Board of Trade?

I share the noble Lord's concern about the level of such imports. That is why we have decided to increase the planting programme, but, as he knows, the time needed for any real return in import substitution is considerable in the case of forestry.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the run-down in the number of forestry workers? I have been reliably informed that they have been run down by about 2,000, mostly in Scotland. Will he initiate discussions between the responsible Ministers to see why this is happening?

It is true that as a result of improvements in productivity in forestry the Commission has decided gradually to reduce the retirement age of foresters from 65 to 60. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has already explained that they will receive the appropriate pension and lump sum. We have an increased planting programme and an increased cutting programme, but because of increased productivity a smaller labour force is required.

asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the structure of the Government Departments dealing with economic affairs; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer which I gave to a similar Question by him on Tuesday.—[Vol. 755, c. 209–13.]

While I welcome the trade figures, as I am sure the whole House will, giving them a welcome which is warm but nevertheless with an element of caution behind it, may I ask the Prime Minister, in the context of the Question, to arbitrate between the conflicting views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the ex-Chancellor? After 1,500 days—I think—of the present Government, will the long slog be for two years or longer?

I do not see any conflict between the statements of my right hon. Friends, but I certainly welcome the hon. Gentleman's opening words. He is right. Anyone with experience of the Board of Trade, such as the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and myself, knows that one does not rush either into excessive gloom or excessive euphoria on the basis of a single month's trading figures. Nevertheless, the trend is important, and the House will have noticed that over the past 15 months the increase in our exports has been at a rate of 12 per cent. per annum compared with an average of 3 per cent. in the past decade. The House will also have noticed the balance of payments figures for the third quarter, again to be treated with caution in view of the capital figures, though right hon. Gentlemen opposite who went into gloom and partisanship both on the first quarter's figures of the balance of payments and on individual months' trading figures, might reconsider their speeches of last weekend.

Reverting to the Question, without casting doubt on the infallibility of the Treasury, would not my right hon. Friend agree that the doctrine of countervailing power would justify the expense of a Department of Economic Affairs? Would not he further agree—going away from the Question—that, even though hon. Members opposite may not be persuaded by the trade figures, they must be persuaded by the fact that everyone in Zurich is buying pounds and no one is selling them?

Yes, Sir—that is why we expect different speeches this weekend. Since some of the excesses of last weekend were based on a flurry in sterling caused by strikes in France—for which, I should tell the House, I have no personal responsibility—no doubt the Leader of the Opposition, who is speaking again on Merseyside this weekend, will think again before making another such speech. I explained during the debate on the Fulton Report the machinery of Government in relation to the economic Departments. Without wanting to over-emphasise the infallibility of the Treasury, I remind the House that the Treasury and Board of Trade Ministers have always said that the real benefits of our post-devaluation policy would not appear until the second half of this year. The trade figures—ignoring a single month's figures—show a sharp upward trend in exports and this confirms what we have said, without importing infallibility to the Treasury.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will invite the European Free Trade Association Prime Ministers to London at an early date to discuss the relationships between that organisation and the United Kingdom.

I have no plans to do so.

Are not the Government showing undue complacency in an area where vigorous new initiative is required to reinforce success? Will the right hon. Gentleman note that, in conversations I have had with five E.F.T.A. ambassadors in the last 24 hours, all of them emphasised our comparative neglect of a large, prosperous and co-operative part of Europe?

I cannot comment on the hon. Gentleman's conversations with ambassadors. All I know is what E.F.T.A. Ministers have said to my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade when he represents this country there. Our trade with E.F.T.A. has been increasing strongly during recent months and years. We have not yet got the detailed figures for November but I shall be surprised if they do not show that our E.F.T.A. trade is following the same general pattern of improvement that the country is recording in its world market position.

At an early date, will my right hon. Friend invite the Heads of Government of those countries which might be included in a North Atlantic free trade association to discuss the strong advisability of setting up such an organisation?

I have nothing to add to previous replies on this matter. As I have pointed out, it does not just involve the North Atlantic area, but also such countries as Australia and others which have no Atlantic seaboard. We want generalised trade throughout. It is a very large subject and it would be better done through the G.A.T.T. and other direct contacts.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will call a Heads of Government Conference of Great Britain, France, the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics with a view to pro- curing a ban on arms supplies to the Arab States and Israel and to securing the immediate implementation of the United Nations Security Council Resolution of 22nd November, 1967.

I do not think that a proposal of this kind would be productive in present circumstances. We have, however, repeatedly made it clear that, in our view, it would be in the best interests of all concerned to construct a settlement within the framework of the Security Council Resolution of November, 1967, which Britain sponsored.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that there are many signs of a dangerous drift towards a war situation in the Middle East? As originators of the resolution of 22nd November, have not Her Majesty's Government a special opportunity to strengthen the effort of Dr. Jarring?

I doubt whether any other Foreign Minister has done as much as my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary to strengthen the efforts of Dr. Jarring to make a reality of that resolution. It would be a mistake, however, to try to tackle the problem by isolating one single item, as my hon. Friend has done, and, if we can, make progress alone in that direction. I regret to say that my hon. Friend's proposal is not realistic. The important thing is to get an agreed programme and timetable, with balanced phasing and the agreed requirements of both sides, and then proceed to see it through. My right hon. Friend and I are having discussions with Mr. Eban on one aspect, as we have already had with the Egyptian Foreign Minister.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is an even more urgent case for calling a conference of Heads of Government to control the supply of arms to Nigeria and Biafra?

We shall be debating these matters later today and no doubt my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will deal with the subject of Nigeria. As the hon. Gentleman knows, British Ministers are in Africa now doing what they can to help. The problem is much wider than the single one of arms and far more needs to be done than just what the hon. Gentleman suggests.

asked the Prime Minister if he will discuss co-operation between the United Kingdom and the United States of America in the marine sciences when he visits President-elect Nixon.

It is too early to reach conclusions on what subjects would most appropriately be raised at my first meeting with the President-elect, but I shall bear my hon. Friend's suggestion in mind.

Will my right hon. Friend urge Mr. Nixon to give careful consideration to the proposals of the Maltese Government at the United Nations?

Yes, Sir. Of course, the question of the use of the seabed for the benefit of developing countries is one that will be considered as part of the general international study of these questions, although it will be a complicated proposal to turn into reality. President Johnson proposed on 8th March, 1968, that there should be an international decade on ocean exploration and I am convinced that Mr. Nixon will be prepared to work with us, as we are working with Mr. Johnson's Administration, at the United Nations to get the adoption of that programme.

asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the latest position in Her Majesty's Government's discussions with the Government of Northern Ireland on civil rights.

asked the Prime Minister whether he will have further discussions with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.

As the House knows, I have had continuing contacts with the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland about the matters which I raised with him when he visited London on 4th November, and I look forward to further discussions on these matters.

Can we hope in the present delicate situation for a trend towards one-man, one-vote in local government?

At the meeting which my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I had with Captain O'Neill, Mr. Craig and Mr. Faulkner, we pressed a number of urgent decisions that are required. We have welcomed the progress made and Captain O'Neill's statement, although the progress does not meet what most of us consider to be desirable and certainly needs speeding up. But, at this time, it is better to record our concern about the position and our feelings about what has happened this week.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there have been threats against a postal worker in Northern Ireland which have now been extended to threats of murder against his family? If Captain O'Neill is sincere in his latest efforts, will my right hon. Friend undertake to give him every support in order to protect Crown servants in Northern Ireland?

I am sure that my hon. Friend would not want any interpretation of his words to suggest that he casts doubt on Captain O'Neill's sincerity. Captain O'Neill has shown his sincerity by his great courage in the great difficulties he has faced.

Does not the Prime Minister agree that the five-point programme announced by the Northern Ireland Government is a sincere and far-reaching attempt to deal with a difficult problem?

Yes, Sir. The programme closely follows the points we put to Northern Ireland Ministers at the meeting to which I have referred. We welcome the programme as we have welcomed other recent steps, such as the housing provisions. We do not feel that there is any justification for the prolonged postponement of the principle of one-man, one-vote in Northern Ireland. Despite the long-term factor in the proposition that has been made, we welcome it as far as it goes.

Is the Prime Minister aware that we appreciate what he has said about the courage of our Prime Minister—[Interruption.] For greater clarity may I make it plain that I was referring to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland? Is the Prime Minister aware that the best service that any of us can do to all the people of Northern Ireland at the moment is to support Captain O'Neill's call for moderation and restraint and good sense, an end to demonstrations on all sides—

One man, one vote.

and the restoration of law and order.

That was what I had in mind in my original Answer, when I referred to what I was sure would be the feelings of the whole House on this matter. There is a paramount need for moderation and calm, for an end of bigotry of the kind which has, I am afraid, caused so many of the present problems. At the same time, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware—and this has been the basis of my talks with Captain O'Neill—at the end of the day social grievances of the kind which we have been facing, which have led to disorder, can be dealt with, not by the police, but by social political solutions to those grievances.

As one who has probably spoken more about Northern Ireland, from this side of the House anyway, than anyone, may I now suggest to the House that the less we say about Northern Ireland at this moment, the better?

I very much welcome what my hon. Friend has said about this. These matters have to be sorted out in Northern Ireland. We are all aware that today is a particularly critical day for this. The House will be following what is happening with deep concern, and with, if necessary, a readiness to act.

Would the right hon. Gentleman accept that we on these benches would wish to be associated with what has been said about the need for both tolerance and moderation in this situation?

I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I noted in a recent broadcast this week that one of the arguments used was the bipartisan character of the advice given to Captain O'Neill, and the support given on a bipartisan basis by the Leader of the Opposition, as well as by the Government, in terms of any expectations that bigots, zealots or minorities there might have had in leading the fight against Captain O'Neill.

Is the Prime Minister aware that it is the overwhelming wish of this House that Captain O'Neill should be given the opportunity to put his proposals into practice and should therefore be given support by his own party to remain Prime Minister, so that he might do so?

I said that this is a critical day, and I do not want to comment on the last few words of the right hon. Gentleman. Of course Captain O'Neill should be given support in what he has so far announced. Of course, and this is part of the tribute which we pay to his courage, he should be encouraged to go further and faster once he has sorted out his present difficulties. If they are not sorted out, I do not think anyone here or in Northern Ireland now will have any doubts about the consequences.