asked the Minister of Power if he will consult with the Minister of Housing and Loal Government on the use of refuse disposal incinerators to heat whole towns or large districts within towns; and if he will ensure that nationalised fuel industries co-operate where appropriate to establish more extensive use of whole town or district heating systems.

Total energy and district heating schemes, incorporating refuse incineration, are certainly developments which we wish to encourage, wherever technically and economically viable. We are considering the possibilities of greater co-operation between fuel industries, developers and local authorities, and are in touch with other Departments on the subject.

Can my hon. Friend say whether the Nottingham scheme is likely to still be operative in 1970? What active steps are being taken to encourage other local authorities to use district heating schemes based on refuse disposal? Would he agree that any scheme which led to a reduction of the £70 million a year which we spend on refuse disposal would be helpful?

The second part of my hon. Friend's Question is for the Minister of Housing and Local Government. Certainly we as a Department wish to encourage this kind of development and are in touch with that Ministry on the issue. I understand that in Nottingham negotiations are now proceeding in which the N.C.B. and, no doubt, other interested persons and bodies are involving themselves with a view to embarking on a district heating scheme incorporating refuse incineration.

asked the Minister of Power if he will take steps to stop the usage of connecting charges as an instrument of competitive marketing by the nationalised fuel industries.

My right hon. Friend is discussing with the Electricity and Gas Councils the systems of connection charges used by the two industries.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the time for discussion of this matter is now well-nigh over and that the essence of public ownership is replacement of undesirable competition by healthy co-operation? Would he not take some urgent steps to avoid the undesirable use of connecting charges by some boards as a weapon in this field?

I hope that the review of this matter is well-nigh over and that soon we shall be able to get a conclusion satisfactory to all persons and industries concerned.

Why has this matter taken so long? Did not the Government make clear that they were reviewing it at the time when the 1965 White Paper on policy was published? Could not the hon. Gentleman give a general direction to the boards concerned, or, better still, leave this matter to their commercial judgment?

This is a rather complex subject which did not arise in 1965 but was developing over a number of years before then. We are making a serious study of the problem, and we think we shall find an answer soon which will obviate a general need for such a direction and at the same time meet the needs of the industries from an economic and commercial point of view.

asked the Minister of Power what representations he has received from the oil industry objecting to the Government's proposals for nationalising the ports; and what reply he has sent.

Quite a number, and the Ministry of Transport will shortly reply to them in detail.

As one of the principal customers of the ports has objected to the scheme for nationalisation because it will make charges much more expensive, will the Minister have a word with the Minister of Transport and suggest that he drop this ridiculous scheme?

This is a matter which my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport will be replying to. Questions on this matter should be directed to him.

asked the Minister of Power what is the estimated percentage of the volume of imported oil products which will pass through ports due for nationalisation under the Bill proposing a National Ports Authority; and whether he will consult with the Minister of Transport to ensure that adequate provision is made for such imports.

Over 95 per cent. of United Kingdom crude oil and product imports pass through ports which are due to be reorganised under the National Ports Authority. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport is well aware of the importance of such imports.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the industry is seriously considering using ports which are not in this area, and will he give an undertaking that the Minister of Transport will not extend the scheme if the oil industries decide that it is better to use a private enterprise port rather than a nationalised one?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not using an occasion such as this to introduce threats against my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport. I suggest that he direct his attention and his Questions to that Minister

asked the Minister of Power what progress has been made with the feasibility studies of the possible use of one meter reader for both gas and electricity.

asked the Minister of Power what progress he has made in his discussions regarding the use of one meter reader where appropriate for both gas and electricity; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Power whether he intends to implement the recommendations of the National Board for Prices and Incomes Report to amalgamate the meter reading staffs of the gas councils and electricity boards.

The feasibility studies have been completed. The results will shortly be considered by the Electricity and Gas Councils, to decide whether to extend the studies to field trials, as has been suggested by the National Board for Prices and Incomes in its Report No. 102.

Why is there such a long delay? The scheme has been proved to work well in France. It is obvious that one man reading both beters and, with the aid of computers, one bill must be cheaper. The hon. Gentleman must realise that it would halve the risk of bogus meter readers.

The hon. Gentleman reads too much into this possibility. I assure him that it is a subject to which I have paid special attention since I have been at the Ministry. I am not persuaded that there is likely to be any major savings as a result of any such exercise in joint management. The N.B.P.I. estimated the figure at about £1½ million without taking into account counterbalancing costs.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there would be not only economic advantage but advantage from a convenience point of view? Householders should not have to stay in to have their meters read when the numbers of calls could be reduced by half.

I assure my hon. Friend that, although I want to abate the enthusiasm of one or two hon. Members opposite on this subject, I am concerned that the matter should be properly studied and field trials will be considered by the two Councils. The matter is being pursued seriously and benefit could accrue from such an exercise.

Why has it taken so long for the Ministry to recognise a fact which is self-evident to every householder, namely, that one man could read both meters? The saving of £1½ million estimated by the N.B.P.I. is a substantial one. Should not this saving be made immediately?

If the hon. Gentleman refers to the Report of the National Board, he will find that what the Board has to say on this matter arises largely as a result of the work that the Ministry has been doing on the matter.

asked the Minister of Power (1) in view of the difficulties being experienced in the nuclear power programme, if he will consider the further immediate use of low cost coal for power generation until these difficulties have been overcome;

asked the Minister of Power (1) what representations he has received about the proposed second coal-fired generating station at West Burton; and what reply he has given to them;

asked the Minister of Power if he will give further consideration to the use of low-cost coal for power generation, having regard to the difficulties which have arisen in the nuclear power programme.

Experience to date with the nuclear power programme gives no grounds for changing existing policies. The Central Electricity Generating Board has no immediate plans for a further coal-fired station but the possibility will be kept under review in the light of the policy described in paragraph 98 of the Fuel Policy White Paper (Cmnd. 3438). In fact, I saw a delegation from the Nottinghamshire County Council on 18th December and I am sending it my comments on the memorandum it submitted to me about a second power station at West Burton.

I thank my right hon. Friend for sending the memorandum to the county council. Is he aware that it is three years since the last coal-fired power station was ordered by the C.E.G.B.? Is he further aware that the N.C.B. is putting in what I believe to be a record low bid for the second power station at Drax? Due to nuclear difficulties at South Dakota in America, they are now going back to fossil fuels. Further, will he take—

Order. Question must be brief, even from a new Member.

I am aware—

Order.

It is due to banding five Questions together that I have to ask this super-supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is my right hon. Friend further aware—[Interruption.]

Order. Mr. Mason.

I have forgotten all the questions now. I am aware of how long it has been since a coal-fired station was ordered. There are 20,000 megawatts of coal-fired stations either being commissioned or under construction at present, and by 1975 at least 74 per cent. of all power generation will still be from coal.

On the second major point, about the Chairman of the National Coal Board having made a record low offer, no offer has been made to the C.E.G.B. and no offer has been made to the Ministry of Power. Public contracting in this way can cause annoyance, can be misleading, and does not satisfy anyone.

With reference to my right hon. Friend's point about the deputation from Nottinghamshire, what, if any, factual miscalculations were there in the very solid and reasonably based representations which the Nottinghamshire County Council put before him?

I cannot go into all the details about pence per kW-hour or per unit, the life of generating sets, and so on. No doubt, my hon. Friend will have noted that the C.E.G.B. has now changed the ground rules for nuclear stations, and they will now have a life of 25 years compared with 20 years hitherto, so that nuclear power becomes more competitive still.

Will my right hon. Friend give some consideration to setting up a prototype plant for the fluidised-bed system of coal combustion, as this seems likely to revolutionise the use of coal as a low-cost fuel?

Order. The hon. Gentleman must not anticipate later Questions on the Order Paper.

My hon. Friend has jumped out of bed too soon. There are at least five other Questions on that topic.

Since the right hon. Gentleman has confirmed that the C.E.G.B. has changed the ground rules, would it not have been more proper if in answering the debate on Friday he had drawn the attention of the House to that matter?

I did answer Questions during the week. It would not have been possible on that occasion, when the hon. Gentleman himself left me very little time to reply to a whole day's debate.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will arrange for the issue each year of a Green Paper containing commercial and financial forecasts, investment plans, and other relevant information about the nationalised fuel industries.

I shall keep in mind this proposal, which has been made in slightly different form by the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, but I would remind the hon. Member that a great deal of information is already published by the Government and the industries.

I appreciate that, but will not the right hon. Gentleman agree that discussion on fuel matters in the House and elsewhere would be better informed and more up to date if he could produce annually some sort of comprehensive and forward-looking document covering the whole field?

I wonder how much information the hon. Gentleman and the House really want. While we have been in office, we seem to have flooded the House with information. Since the Select Committees were established, particularly the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries which examined the possibility of a Minister of nationalised industries, there have been 47 papers submitted to that Committee, and 11 from my Ministry alone.

asked the Minister of Power when his Energy Advisory Council last met; when it will next meet; what decisions or recommendations it has made in the past 12 months; and whether he will make a statement.

In June, 1967. It will next meet on 1st April.

But will not the Minister accept that this neglect of the Advisory Council shows that he is not treating it seriously but has made it into nothing more than a Labour Government gimmick?

On the contrary. I am treating it seriously. That is why I do not call upon it when there is no special material for it to discuss. When it comes before me on 1st April, it will be looking at the implications of the economic assessment up to 1972 as it affects the energy sector.

asked the Minister of Power to what extent the estimates in the Fuel Policy White Paper of November, 1967, formed the basis of the energy assumptions embodied in the general economic forecasts published in the Green Paper at the end of February.

Paragraphs 5 and 6 of Chapter 8 of the Green Paper describe the assumptions about energy demand used in it.

In view of the divergence of the Green and White Papers, does the Minister not see some usefulness in bringing up to date Table D and publishing it annually?

Not having in mind precisely what Table D is, all I can say is that there is very little divergence between the Green Paper and the estimates of demand in the Fuel Policy White Paper. They are running fairly well in line.

But that is not true for coal.

As there is a difference—and the Minister will realise that there is—may we be told which we are now to take as authoritative, the Green or the White Paper?

The estimates in the Fuel Policy White Paper and the slight variations in the Green Paper show that nuclear power and North Sea gas are coming on stream a little slower than we expected, coal has recently made a slight revival, and oil is coming in a little faster than we had in mind.

asked the Minister of Power which years will be covered in his 1969 review of the nationalised fuel industries' forward plans.

The five years 1969–70 to 1973–74.

How will the right hon. Gentleman deal with the revisions which will become necessary as we improve our knowledge of the avail-ability of North Sea gas?

Because I review it every year. I expect to give final approval each year, over a five-year programme, tentative approval for the second year, and then generally for the three years following. It is kept under annual review by myself and my Department.

asked the Minister of Power whether in future he will offer opportunities for Members of Parliament to participate at some stage in the annual review of investment for the nationalised fuel industries.

No, Sir.

Would it not be helpful to the Minister to have an informed body of Members of Parliament behind him in his dealings with heads of the nationalised industries?

No, Sir. The formulation of policy is my responsibility, and I am answerable to the House. I believe in participation, but that would be ridiculous: 630 Ministers, or—as I imagine the nationalised industries would say—630 more interferers.

asked the Minister of Power on what assumptions about pricing policy he bases his present system of appraising the investment plans of the nationalised fuel industries.

Each industry has a pricing policy which takes account of its particular circumstances. It is in the light of that policy, and the views on pricing expressed in Cmnd. 3437, that I appraise the industry's investment plans.

What will the Minister's policy be towards the recommendation published by the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries that his industry should adopt long-run marginal cost pricing for new investments?

We have not determined policy on that yet. The marginal cost pricing policy is certainly under consideration, but with the background of the White Paper, Cmnd. 3437, in mind.

Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the implications of the recent decision to extend the effective life of the A.G.R. stations? Does not that significantly affect the investment priorities for power stations generally?

Yes, Sir. There will have to be fresh consideration, as they have now been given 25 years' life instead of 20.

Has the Minister had an opportunity to study Lord Robens's recent offer of coal in 1975 at 3½d. a term? Will he confirm that this would be on the basis of marginal costing?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will listen to what I say. I said in answer to an earlier Question that no specific offer has been made by the Chairman of the National Coal Board. Therefore, the public comment about a record low offer is about an offer that does not yet exist as far as we are concerned.

asked the Minister of Power what research he is supporting into the utilisation of solar power for industry.

None, Sir. Some research in this field is being supported by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some interesting results have been obtained at Wallasey and in the Pyrenees in space-heating and specialised smelting? In view of the rapid technological developments coming from the space programme in energy conversion devices, is not this a field in which we could at least play a larger part than at present?

I shall call the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology to the matter. I am aware of the school in Wallasey which has been using solar heat, for 16 or 16 years now, I believe, and I understand that it has done so effectively. However, I am not so cer- tain that the economics of such developments would be sound in this climate.

asked the Minister of Power what is the current level of steel production in 1968–69; how much steel continues to be imported in 1968–69; what imports reduction is planned; and whether he will make a statement on steel imports substitution.

The current rate of crude steel production is about 27½ million tons a year. Steel imports have been rising for some years and totalled 2·1 million tons in 1968, including material for hire-rolling and subsequent re-export. This upward trend is expected to be checked in 1969.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now abandon his position of neutrality over the proposed increase in the price of steel by 9 per cent. to 10 per cent., the effect of which would be to militate against the use of home-produced steel and in favour of imported steel?

There is no question of neutrality. The matter is not before me but before the N.B.P.I.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the motor car industry, for example, imports a large quantity of steel from Holland and other European countries which cannot be produced here at home? Will he make inquiries into why we cannot produce all the kinds of steel British industry requires?

When there is a great upsurge in demand, as in recent times, it is not possible for our steel industry to satisfy all domestic demand.

asked the Minister of Power how many steelworkers on Teesside are working part time because of a shortage of steel.

I understand that the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation has now written to my hon. Friend about this.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a very substantial number of workers affected in my constituency feel bitterly about working short time when the country is having to import steel? They put the responsibility fairly and squarely on the bad planning of the private industry, which they look to the British Steel Corporation speedily to rectify.

I am sorry that one or two plants should be suffering like this, but it depends upon their products, which may not be the type we are importing. But my hon. Friend is right in blaming the inheritance of the badly planned private steel industry. This will, in the short term, cause difficulty in a number of plants, but I hope that it will be quickly resolved.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that when a Question is down for Answer we like to know what the Answer is, and that the fact that the Answer is in a private letter to an hon. Member is quite irrelevant at Question Time? Will the right hon. Gentleman now tell us how many steel workers on Tees-side are working part time because of the shortage?

The simple answer is that I do not know.

asked the Minister of Power what are his present methods of comparing performance with forecast year by year for each of the nationalised fuel industries; and what changes he proposes to make in those methods.

I make such inquiries as seem to be necessary into the reasons for differences between forecasts and performance, in full consultation with the industry's management.

Would not it be helpful if such inquiries as the Minister made, and their results, were published, particularly with regard to forecasts and results, returns on capital, the levels of productivity and profitability generally?

I notice that that was one of the recommendations of the Select Committee, and we did not particularly answer it. As I indicated earlier in Question Time, we give a large amount of information to the House, through White Papers, the annual reports of the nationalised industries and the material we provide for Select Committees. It is not really necessary to go further.

asked the Minister of Power whether, in view of Her Majesty's Government's new policy on financing of nationalised industries, he plans to raise a loan in an overseas market for the nationalised industries for which he is responsible.

Under the statutes it is the nationalised industries concerned which raise loans of this kind. The hon. Member will be aware that the Gas Council is exercising its powers under Section 4 of the Gas and Electricity Act, 1968, by borrowing 300 million deutsche-marks, which is about £30 million, on the German market.

Is the Minister aware that many people in this country will be resentful that the German investing public now have a chance to invest in North Sea gas? If he devised a form of equity participation, sufficient money would be forthcoming in this country for all his capital requirements. Before he embarks on the rôle of international financier, may I ask him to appreciate that if the Deutschemark is revalued the guarantee that the Treasury has given today could be the most expensive the British taxpayer has ever had to bear.

It is through the co-operation of the Treasury that this has been made possible. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman takes such a narrow-minded attitude about it. The balance of payments will benefit by it, and the Gas Council is pleased to adopt this method.

Is not it an extraordinary development that we are borrowing such a large sum of money for a nationalised industry? How soon will it be before we go to Germany and ask for money to finance the Army and Navy?

I am not interested in the latter part of my hon. Friend's question. The Gas Council thinks that this is a good thing. I applaud it, and there is no reason why we should not take advantage of it.

asked the Minister of Power what directive he has given to the Central Electricity Generating Board about the purchase of natural gas, on normal commercial terms, from the gas industry for burning in power stations.

None, Sir. Proposals for fuelling power stations with natural gas will be considered on their merits in the light of the policy described in the Fuel Policy White Paper (Cmnd.3438).

It has been widely stated that some guidance has been given to the electricity supply industry in this matter. Is that the case?

In the investigations into the possibility of North Sea gas powering power stations there has been an experiment at Hams Hill which proved successful. The C.E.G.B. would have liked to convert the whole station but I have not given permission because of the difficulties of the coal industry at the moment.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, however, state what his view generally is about using a primary fuel for generation of secondary fuel?

It is entirely unnecessary at this moment.

asked the Minister of Power if he is aware of the growing number of complaints from members of the public that their gas bills have increased since conversion to natural gas; what action he proposes taking to curb this inflationary trend; and if he will make a statement.

Most of these complaints arise from misunderstanding accounts, but in a few cases, being rectified by the boards, faulty adjustment during conversion has led to excessive use of gas.

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that the disturbingly large number of faulty conversions are responsible for these increases? Is he aware that the public thought originally that natural gas would lead to smaller bills, whereas now the first bills are coming in and they are increased?

I should not generalise from the experience which has given rise to this Question. In most instances where natural gas has come on stream there have been reductions in price. We have discussed this before. There are bound to be difficulties initially, but wherever they have been experienced they have been overcome.

While gas boards are correct in saying that natural gas is more efficient and cheaper than town gas, is my hon. Friend aware that faulty conversions, which are the cause of most of these complaints, are probably due to the fact that the men who carry out the conversions are inadequately trained and that the hours of work are far too long for efficient service? Will he ask the gas boards to consider their method of contracting out this work and doing it themselves?

I assure my hon. Friend that we have been in touch with the gas boards concerned and with the Gas Council. I have visited a number of areas where conversion has been initiated. That there have been difficulties no one will deny, but they should not be exaggerated. In the vast majority of cases there has been no difficulty at all, but there is a sizeable minority of cases where difficulties have arisen. The boards themselves are aware of the problem and are reorganising where necessary.

asked the Minister of Power on how many occasions North Sea gas has found its way into pipelines still distributing town gas; how many accidents to persons and to equipment have resulted from these occurrences; and what steps he is taking to ensure greater safety to the consumer.

Thirty-nine occasions. No accidents resulted.

Will the Minister try to ensure that this is more widely known? At present it is frequently suggested in the Press and generally that when there is an accident or explosion involving plant it is because of the change to North Sea gas. It is most important for the consumer to realise that there has been no damage or fatality.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. There has been some confusion on the matter in the public mind and in the Press. It has arisen because of some instances during conversion programmes when a certain amount of natural gas has escaped into the existing complex. There has been no damage in any of those instances, and the situation has been corrected very quickly. There have been no accidents as a result of those instances.

asked the Minister of Power whether he intends to accept the proposal contained in the National Board for Prices and Incomes Report No. 102 on Gas Prices that the gas industry should be relieved of the legal restraint regarding undue preference in its pricing policy.

I am considering the proposal.

When is my right hon. Friend likely to reach a decision? Further, does he agree that the concept is so vague as to give little protection to the public while providing a psychological and marginal handicap to the gas industry in its competitive position?

I am aware of the restraints which it places upon the Gas Council, from which the Council has already sought relief, as well as of the recommendation of the Prices and Incomes Board. It depends on the progress made in the preparation of the gas reorganisation Bill, which might prove a suitable opportunity.

asked the Minister of Power what coal equivalent is represented by estimated North Sea gas of £15 million landed in 1968–69, £36 million in 1969–70 and £62 million in 1970–71; what part of total contracts for North Sea gas these landings represent; what further contracts ad valorem a year for North Sea gas are still to be made; and whether he will make a statement on progress to date.

About 4, 10 and 18 million tons of coal equivalent respectively. Supplies under present 25-year contracts are expected to rise to about 40 million tons of coal equivalent a year by 1975. Contracts for further supplies, equivalent to 3 to 4 million tons a year, have still to be signed.

Do those figures represent an accelerated run-down of the coal mines, or is the position as it was when the abortive White Paper was published and subsequently withdrawn?

I wish that the hon. Gentleman would stop talking nonsense about the White Paper. As we have stated time and again in the House and elsewhere, it never has been withdrawn. In reply to his question about the effect on the coal industry, there is no reason for us to change our judgment in the White Paper that the impact of natural gas supplies will be chiefly in the area of the oil industry and not coal.

asked the Minister of Power if he will seek power to vary the 4 per cent. interest rate laid down in Section 71 of the Schedule to the Electric Lighting (Clauses) Act, 1899.

No, Sir, I do not think this is necessary.

Is the Minister aware that, before a new customer is accepted and given supplies, where he may require large quantities of electricity a substantial deposit has to be made? Therefore, is the Minister satisfied that rates of interest prevailing in 1899 are realistic today?

I am not aware that it is causing any difficulties. The boards are entitled to pay more if they wish to do so, and some boards do.

asked the Minister of Power what average annual rate of growth of electricity demand occurred over the last five years; and upon what annual rate of growth he is planning for the next five years.

asked the Minister of Power what is the estimated annual percentage growth of the maximum demand on the Central Electricity Generating Board system, adjusted to average cold-spell weather conditions, over the next five years.

The Electricity Council's recently adopted forecast for the six years up to 1974–75 implies an average annual rate of growth of simultaneous maximum demand of 5·8 per cent. This compares with an average annual increase, adjusted to average cold spell weather conditions, over the period 1962–63 and 1968–69 of 4 per cent.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary pay tribute to the Opposition for having persuaded him to reduce the over-expensive plans of the electricity supply industry? How much capacity is it planned to provide in 1974–75 to meet the demand of 53,000 megawatts which is now the target?

I cannot give full details on the last point. The forecast of maximum demand for 1974–75 is 53,000 megawatts. If the hon. Gentleman wants specific details about investment programming, no doubt he will communicate with us or table further Questions. I advise the hon. Gentleman not to pursue too closely the question of over-investment. What we have been experiencing in recent years is the result of decisions taken long before the Labour Government came to power.

What will be the new margin of spare generating capacity in the light of the downward revision? Will it be lower than the present 21 per cent. margin?

The target remains at 17 per cent.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the rate of growth last year in terms of units of electricity consumed was 8·6 per cent.? Therefore, would it not be very dangerous, looking to the future, to cut back too much on electricity plant investment?

I certainly accept that. We do not think that this is what is likely to take place. The figure I gave of 5 8 per cent. was an average spread over a period.

asked the Minister of Power what progress he has made in his plans for the reorganisation of the electricity industry in Wales.

I shall inform the House of my conclusions on the organisation of the electricity supply industry in England and Wales as soon as I have completed my review.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread expectation in Wales that when the electricity industry is reorganised Wales will be treated as an entity for the purposes of both generation and distribution, with a national Board and a headquarters in Wales? Does he realise that in Welsh affairs Welsh opinion should be paramount?

I am aware of the demands, though I am not satisfied that they make sense. If it came about, this arrangement for a Welsh power board would be to the disadvantage of Wales and would not provide efficiency in generation and distribution of electricity for the country as a whole.

When does the right hon. Gentleman hope to be able to inform the House of the results of the review in both England and Wales?

I cannot give a date, but I hope quite soon.

asked the Minister of Power what is the margin between the maximum recorded demand on the electricity grid system for the present winter so far and the total of generating plant and interrelated transmission capacity available and ready to supply that demand at the time it occurred.

The daily availability of generating plant varies and is a matter for the Central Electricity Generating Board. The maximum demand for the winter so far has been 37,735 MW.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that if the C.E.G.B. gave these much more realistic figures on the different amounts of capacity available it would be very much in its interest?

I have stated the gross margin available this winter previously to the House. The latest estimate is that it stands at 19 per cent.

asked the Minister of Power what will be the total cost to the Central Electricity Generating Board of installing 65,200 megawatts of electricity capacity by 1973–74.

asked the Minister of Power how much capital it will cost to increase electricity capacity to 54,000 megawatts by 1973–74.

Last year's investment programme of the electricity boards in England and Wales related to a forecast load of 54,000 MW in 1973–74 and was estimated to cost about £2,400 million in the period 1969–70 to 1973–74 of which about £1,500 million was for the Central Electricity Generating Board. The investment programme will be reviewed in the light of the Electricity Council's recent load forecast.

In view of the recent forecast, and the reduction in the levels forecast in it, would the right hon. Gentleman say how much the estimated excess capacity over the 17 per cent. margin is likely to cost?

Not without notice. I repeat that the responsibility for any over-estimating must lie with the Government that preceded us.

Is the Minister aware that on the figures he has given this afternoon he has reduced electricity capacity by 18,000 megawatts by 1974–75, which represents a saving of £400 million to the public purse, for which he should be grateful to the Opposition?

If the hon. Gentleman chooses to repeat himself on this matter, I must repeat that he was a supporter of a Government which prepared the over-investment that he is so busy criticising these days.

asked the Minister of Power what assistance his Department is giving to the National Coal Board in the development and application of the fluidised bed system of coal combustion.

My Advisory Council on Research and Development drew attention some years ago to the fluidised bed system of coal combusion as being worth investigation. My Department, through the Council, has since then encouraged and continues to encourage the National Coal Board in its efforts to determine the potential of this new technique of coal combustion.

Does the Minister consider that this is a technological break-through by the National Coal Board? If so, will not it increase coal's share of the total energy market in the 1970s?

It is much too early to say that it is a technological break-through, although at this stage it is encouraging. If it succeeds, it will certainly help the sale of coal.

My right hon. Friend has confirmed to the House that the nuclear industry has amended its financial policy to make it more competitive. Does he agree that here we are discussing a technological development in the utilisation of coal which will make the coal industry and the National Coal Board competitive without any financial manipulation?

My hon. Friend must remember that the Central Electricity Generating Board always errs on the side of caution and safety. We have developed a nuclear industry that is perhaps the safest in the world, we have more experience than anyone else in the world in the peaceful generation of nuclear energy, and we have been selling stations abroad. One of the ground rules was that the stations had a 20-year life. Now they have a 25-year life, which is a sensible and logical step. It is not for my hon. Friend to start charging the industry with what he probably thinks is a trick because at the same time fluidised bed combustion techniques may be feasible. A technological break-through does not exist, but the development is encouraging, and I hope that it succeeds.

asked the Minister of Power what assessment he has made of the fluidised bed system of coal combustion for electricity generation recently proposed by the British Coal Utilisation Research Association and the National Coal Board, particularly with regard to cost per unit and capital costs; and what changes he envisages in fuel policy as a result.

The work on the fluidised bed combustion of coal is aimed at providing the engineering data required for detailed design and cost studies of novel boiler plant. It will not be possible to make any worthwhile assessment of the impact of this new technique upon the cost of electricity generation based upon coal or to determine what influence it might have upon the pattern of power generation in this country until these studies have been completed. I look forward to the results of these studies with great interest.

As this revolutionary system of consuming coal may well help enormously the profits of the coal industry, is it not desirable to set up a prototype plant for using this form of combustion as soon as possible?

There are two aspects. The first, and smaller, is the development of an industrial boiler with this new technique. I understand that the prototype will be at one of the research establishments quite soon this year. The second aspect is to try to find a technique for power generation. We shall not be able to evaluate the data until later this year, and that will determine how much money should be spent on further research to develop it.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a further statement on the development of coal derivates.

There is continuing research and development work by the National Coal Board to get maximum benefit from coal derivatives, and associated work is done by the British Coal Utilization Research, Coke Research and Coal Tar Research Associations. An account of the lines of research and progress made is given in the latest annual reports of the Board and the associations.

May I appeal to my hon. Friend to set up a committee to reinvestigate the technology of this, since it was in the 1950s that this matter was last thoroughly investigated?

I do not think there is need. The work which is being done is in capable hands and there is no need for a Ministry committee to be set up.