asked the Secretary of State for Defence what criteria are used to judge the standard of accuracy of the 30-day weather forecasts.

The forecast monthly mean temperature and rainfall are each compared with observed values in 10 districts of the British Isles. A separate assessment is made of the other information contained in the forecast. These criteria are then used to judge the overall standard of accuracy.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the public do not share the complacency of the Ministry over the accuracy of these forecasts and are not very happy about them? Are the criteria too soft? In other words, if the forecast is a spell of cold weather and it lasts 21 days, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that the criteria are too weak?

No one in the Ministry is complacent about the Meteorological Office. It would be better if I wrote to the hon. Gentleman explaining the criteria, which are complicated. I would not like to try and explain them in answer to Questions.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to ensure the accuracy of one-day forecasts?

They are measured on a completely different set of criteria, about which I will inform the right hon. and learned Gentleman if he so wishes. There is no complacency about this, but the situation is not as bad as some people try to make out.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence to what extent he took into acount the existence of easily discernible short-term patterns of weather before deciding not to introduce a 14-day forecast in place of the 30-day forecast.

Short-term weather patterns caused by the movement of depressions and anti-cyclones do not continue in any readily predictable manner over periods as long as 14 days. This was one of the factors taken into account in deciding not to introduce 14-day forecasts.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider that there is a 12-day pattern of weather precipitations whereby water is sucked up from the oceans and deposited again in a fairly regular pattern over 12 days? Is not this one reason for moving to 14-day long-range forecasting, which might be rather more successful than the present 30-day forecasting?

I will look at this problem and will write to the hon. Gentleman about it as well.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will investigate the system of weather forecasting, of which details have been sent to him, devised by Mr. Arthur Phillips of Newton Abbot, and which has proved more accurate than the Meteorological Office forecasts.

The accuracy claimed for these forecasts in comparison with those of the Meteorological Office appears to have been exaggerated. Better evidence would be needed to justify a special study of the system. My noble Friend will write to the hon. Member with further details.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that it is unnecessary for him to write to me about it, because this man forecasts the weather for 12 months ahead and it is, therefore, quite possible for my right hon. Friend to check between now and 31st December whether his forecasts are good, bad or indifferent or at least better than the Meteorological Office forecasts?

I do not know what method is used in this case, but this gentleman forecast a cold January which turned out to be mild; a wet February which, in the event, was rather dry over most of the country; a fine spell in mid-March which proved cold, unsettled and wet; and a wet third week in March which was dry.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what communications he has had from the United States Defence Secretary on problems of the emplacement of nuclear weapons on the seabed, such as the installation of nuclear silos on the North Atlantic Ridge; and if he will make a statement.

None, Sir, but of course my Department is in close touch with the Department of Defence on all aspects of military use of the seabed.

Has my right hon. Friend had time to reflect on the proposals of Senator Clairborne Pell, of Rhode Island, which have been sent to him? Is he in the process of drawing any conclusions?

I think my hon. Friend has a Question down to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on the disarmament aspect of the problem. The Government are as anxious as all hon. Members that the international efforts to prevent the emplacement of nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction on the sea bed should be attended by success.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the recent negotiations with other European partners for the building of the multi-rôle combat aircraft.

I have nothing to add to the statements made by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence (Equipment) on 4th and 19th March 1969, in the course of the Defence and Air Estimates debates.—[Vol. 779, c. 357–8. Vol. 780, c. 682–4.]

In view of the importance of this aircraft to the R.A.F., to our defence effort and to our aircraft industry, what would be the time scale if we got a go-ahead within the next month or two?

If we can get a go-ahead—that is, if the Governments concerned agree—we should be proceeding to the project definition stage of the programme, which would take about a year, in spring, 1969.

Is progress, or lack of it, in the negotiations on a European airbus having an effect on the negotiations for this combat aircraft?

I have no reason to believe that that is the case.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will seek to arrange jointly with the Governments of Eire and Yugoslavia simulated peacekeeping exercises by the forces of the three countries as a prototype for United Nations operations.

The United Nations Special Committee on Peacekeeping Operations is in the process of finalising a factual survey of U.N. observer missions authorised by the Security Council. The Committee intends to draw up recommendations based on this survey for the conduct of future operations of this kind. It will then go on to consider other aspects of peacekeeping. It would be premature to arrange exercises of the kind proposed by my hon. Friend in advance of the Committee's recommendations.

I welcome the interest of my right hon. Friend in the activities of the U.N. in this respect. However, does he not think that we might get rather further forward rather faster if some initiative were taken by a country like ours in conjunction with friendly Powers in a practical exercise to demonstrate what could be achieved?

We have taken initiatives. Indeed, the progress already made by the Special Committee owes a good deal to British initiative. But my hon. Friend must recognise that neutral countries, in particular those like Eire and Yugoslavia, are very reluctant to engage in exercises of the type he suggests with non-neutral countries outside the ambit of the United Nations.

Remembering the declarations which the Government made when they took office, what British forces are now available for United Nations operations?

In case of need, very large British forces. The right hon. and learned Gentleman will know that we have specially earmarked certain logistic units to be ready permanently for immediate support for United Nations operations of this kind, but this by no means comprehends the total forces which would be available, or those which we are making available at this moment in Cyprus.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the effectiveness of joint peace-keeping operations is well illustrated by our forces and Commonwealth forces in Malaysia?

I certainly agree that the confrontation exercise in which we and other Commonwealth countries took part was an immensely successful operation for stabilising South-East Asia. The operations in Cyprus under United Nations auspices in which we are co-operating with other countries are equally successful.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what discussions he has had with all levels of Staff in Her Majesty's naval dockyards following the decision to reduce manpower and to streamline management in the three southern yards.

Discussions were initiated on the Whitley Councils, and with the Whitley Committees of the four home dockyards on the day the Defence White Paper was published. On the same day each employee in the dockyards was given a pamphlet dealing with the future of his yard. In addition, a symposium about the details of the decisions concerning the dockyards has been given to members of the Whitley Councils and Committees, and to a number of district union officials.

I commend my hon. Friend on the action already taken. However, would he not agree that the success of the new scheme depends on men at all levels directly understanding the rôle of the yards servicing the Navy and understanding the rôle of the Navy they are servicing? Will he assure the House that full consultations of the kind recently held with civic leaders will be held with the men themselves?

Yes, I can give that assurance. I welcome the discussions already held on the initiative of the Commander in Chief, Portsmouth, with the Portsmouth civic leaders.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence to what extent he took into account industrial capacity in civil establishments outside the Royal Dockyards before arriving at the decisions on the Dockyard review.

This factor was taken fully into account in arriving at the decisions announced in the Statement on the Defence Estimates 1969.

What is the estimated annual saving when the dockyard rundown is complete? Would the figure have been any greater if the alternative solution of a complete closure of one dockyard had been adopted?

I cannot give the figure without notice, but I will consider that question if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to write to me. As for the comparative costs between putting it out to contract——

No. The House has not been given the total annual saving as a result of the review when the rundown is complete.

I will consider giving that, but I cannot do so without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence when he will appoint the Chief Executive for Her Majesty's naval dockyards.

As soon as I am ready.

While this is certainly a move in the right direction, some people feel that it will not be enough. Will my right hon. Friend take quick action to clarify the precise rôle of civil management within the individual yards themselves?

While a decision in principle has been taken, as announced in the White Paper, there are still many aspects which I am considering. I should not like to go further than what I have said today. I want to make an announcement quickly and I will do so as quickly as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what progress has been made in finding an alternative to the Shoeburyness firing range.

The subject is under active examination at the request of the Roskill Commission but no conclusions have yet been reached.

A year ago the House was told that no siutable alternative site could be found. Can the Minister tell us what progress has been made towards new methods which will obviate the necessity to go out on the dried out sands at low tide to recover shots made at high tide?

I am not sure to which answer the hon. Gentleman refers, but we hope to submit to the Roskill Commission by mid-June an estimate of the cost and time scale of re-establishing the Shoeburyness facilities at any alternative location which may emerge, and this will take into account any alternative methods of carrying out the work which may prove to be feasible.

When the Minister says that this matter is under active consideration, does he mean that he is taking into account the possibility of the third London Airport being based at Foulness?

All these are matters under consideration. We hope to submit our report to the Roskill Commission by mid-June.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the future of the Military Hospital, Millbank.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Mr. Driberg) on 20th February.—[Vol. 778, c. 759–62.]

Will the Minister bear in mind that this hospital represents only 6 per cent. of the bed strength of military hospitals in the United Kingdom? While the Tate Gallery trustees are very patient, if they could be informed when the site of this hospital will be available to them—at least an approximation of the date—it would be of great help to them.

It may be only 6 per cent.—and I have not checked that figure—but it is an important 6 per cent. for treatment, training and organisation of the Royal Army Medical Corps. I have considered this problem for 18 months. There are several possible solutions, some costing a considerable amount of money. I repeat the Prime Minister's reply to a supplementary question, namely, that it is better to find the right answer than an excessively quick answer. That is the main thing.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that this is the headquarters hospital of the Royal Army Medical Corps and that it has a worldwide reputation? Would it not be a reversal of all reasonable priorities to get rid of this hospital simply for the purpose of enlarging a gallery to show pictures?

I will certainly bear that in mind. This hospital is an important cog in the Royal Army Medical Corps machine and to the medical corps of the other Services. We are considering alternatives, but a number of them are very expensive and must be looked at very carefully.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will now name the university with which he is hoping to establish links for Sandhurst.

I have nothing to add to the Answer given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence for Administration on 28th February.—[Vol. 778, c. 372–3.]

I give my right hon. Friends full credit for the bold and imaginative link which they have created in the Defence Review between higher education and the Services. Are they aware, however, that some people are mildly bothered about those individuals who may legitimately change their minds about a Service career during the time that they are undertaking higher education?

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend says. If this negotiation is successful, it will help very much in that respect.

I welcome the concept of links with the universities in the way suggested. However, can the Minister give an assurance that the independent status of the Service colleges will still be maintained?

This will be a help towards that end.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what is the total cost of the blockade of Beira since its inception.

I would refer the hon. Member to the Answer I gave on 19th March to the hon. Member for Chigwell (Mr. Biggs-Davison),—[Vol. 780, c. 114.]

As the sum involved is a considerable amount of money, is it not a waste of time when oil reaches Rhodesia from other sources? If it is said that we must support the United Nations, why do not other nations share this futile task?

We do not accept that it is a futile task. We feel that the patrol has been fully effective in cutting off the most direct route for the supply of oil to Rhodesia.

Does not my hon. Friend recognise that many of us feel that it is a little purposeless simply to redirect trade via Lorenzo Marques? Is it not time to make this policy effective?

That is a question which should properly be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what additional training will be given to the Royal Air Force pilots who operate with the fleet once Royal Navy fixed-wing aircraft have been phased out.

R.A.F. aircrew operating with the fleet will receive joint classroom training in maritime tactics, preoperational live training in the air defence, strike and reconnaissance rôles, and squadron training in the same rôles with units of the fleet.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say, approximately, what percentage of the R.A.F. will be devoted to this task and what is to happen to the Fleet Air Arm crews who are already fully trained? Will they be transferred to the R.A.F.?

On the first part of the Question, I should like notice of it, but since the hon. Gentleman obviously wants an answer, I will write to him with what information I can let him have. On the second part, about the Fleet Air Arm crews, some have already been offered the option of transfer to the R.A.F. We are prepared to arrange that where necessary. Others might serve on a loan basis.

On the wider aspects of training, can we be assured that Her Majesty's Forces are being given adequate training in unarmed combat? Can we also be sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be available to give his advice and experience in this?

If anything, the training in unarmed combat in the forces has improved since my right hon. Friend took his course many years ago.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what was the average mileage steamed by destroyers/frigates during the year 1967–68.

For security reasons, which have already been explained to the hon. and gallant Member, I am not prepared to quote these figures.

Why is the hon. Gentleman so cagey about the Soviet Fleet off our shores this morning? Or is this more malice than ignorance on the part of Mr. Chapman Pincher?

It is not a question of malice or ignorance. We are not in any way cagey about the question of Russian ships being off our shores. Anyone need only read the Defence Estimates to see this.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence by what date he expects that Her Majesty's Government will place an order for an additional Fleet submarine.

Negotiations are taking place with Vickers, and we hope to place the order very soon.

Does the Minister appreciate that these ships are extremely valuable and the main striking force of the Fleet? Is he aware that this sort of delay is one of the reasons why the Government's defence policy is just not catching on with the public?

I am well aware of the first part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Question—there is no delay.

May we have an idea of the cost of this submarine?

No. It is not practice to give the cost of this submarine until the order has been completed.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will now announce the starting date of the increase of pensions; and if he will state the scales.

I can only refer the hon. Gentleman to the Answer I gave him on 19th February, 1969.—[Vol. 778, c. 461–2.]

Surely the Minister could be a little more forthcoming? Is he aware that a lot of retired officers and other ranks would like to know whether he intends to use the Royal Warrant procedure to increase Service pensions?

There is no need for me to be more forthcoming. I told the hon. Gentleman in my earlier reply that they would take effect from 1st April, 1969.

Will the Minister look at the ridiculous anomaly whereby distinguished retired soldiers who hold the Long and Meritorious Service Medal annuity have their pensions reduced by almost the same amount as the annuity? Surely the new increase in pensions would give the Minister a chance to look at this rather barbarous anomaly once again?

I will have a look at that anomaly. To be perfectly honest, my first reaction is that it was rather the other way round—there is a waiting list for the annuity. I will have a look at this.

Will the hon. Gentleman look sympathetically upon some of these pensioners living abroad, particularly as they have been so hard hit by devaluation? Will he press the Chancellor to do something to see that where possible they do not have to pay tax on the very small pensions they get when living abroad?

I am not sure of the exact point that the hon. Gentleman has in mind. Perhaps he would write to me. Generally speaking, pension increases, both in the public and the military sectors in this country are designed to help people living here to offset increases in the cost of living in this country. Pensioners living abroad, under National Insurance and other pension schemes, do not normally acquire the benefit.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence whether he will send a detachment of Royal Engineers to Anguilla on a training exercise with the object of providing the islanders with roads, an airstrip, drainage, an electricity supply and other basic services.

Yes, Sir. Men of 33 Field Squadron, Royal Engineers, will be flying to Anguilla tomorrow to undertake a variety of tasks aimed at improving general living conditions on the island.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is a satisfactory Answer, but that he could make it much more satisfactory if he would say that there would be many more Royal Engineers going there? Does he not see a tremendous opportunity, both to give men of the Royal Engineers worth-while training, and to provide some worth-while amenities for the people of this unfortunate island?

My hon. Friend must recognise that we have had a reconnaissance group from the squadron concerned having a look at what needs to be done on the island. The 70 men now being flown out will be able to carry out that work. If there is a case thereafter for continuing it on a different basis we shall consider that. Men of the Royal Engineers, and other Army units are doing this type of work all over the world and it is a question of priorities.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the use being made of the Royal Engineers in this particular situation is an admirable justification of the emphasis that has recently been laid on civil support operation by the Forces?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. This is indeed the case, and hon. Members on both sides will recognise the political as well as military importance of winning the support of the local population in this type of situation by doing constructive work through Her Majesty's Forces.

How much will this cost, roughly?

I am afraid that I cannot say until we have a clearer idea of precisely what these men will be doing. The incremental cost, the cost of them doing work there rather than doing training work elsewhere, will not be large.

While the decision to send a detachment of Royal Engineers to Anguilla is satisfactory, as far as it goes, can my right hon. Friend explain why this was not done before? Are we to understand that it is only when trouble occurs that we take action of this kind?

No, Sir. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will recognise that this is not the case. As I have announced on many occasions, men of the Royal Enginers and other Army units have done this type of work all over the world. There was a strikingly successful example in the Caribbean recently, in the Virgin Islands, with the construction of an air strip at Beef Island.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence (1) with what devices containing C.S. gas British troops in Anguilla are equipped; and in what quantities;

Pistols, 1½ inch, which can fire a C.S. gas cartridge and C.S. grenades, form a normal part of the equipment of troops being sent abroad on internal security duties. Accordingly, some 25 pistols, 1,890 C.S. cartridges and 330 C.S. grenades were taken to Anguilla and could be issued to the troops should the need arise. The equipment is manufactured in the United Kingdom.

What instructions have been given to the troops about the circumstances in which these devices may be used, and in what respects do those instructions differ from the instructions given to the police in this country about the circumstances in which similar devices may be used here?

My hon. Friend will not expect me to be familiar with the instructions given to the police in this country, but the instructions given to Her Majesty's Forces who are issued with these devices are not to use them except under extreme provocation in circumstances in which the only alternative is the use of other means of restraint which might cause more physical damage than the use of C.S. The reason why we were able to deal with extremely violent civil disturbances in Hong Kong and Cyprus in the past with so little loss of life was the ability to use this type of weapon rather than guns and machine guns, as were used in similar situations in the past.

Would not supplies of laughing gas have been more appropriate for this particular episode?

Would my right hon. Friend, together with his senior scientific advisers, send for the results of experiments done at Innisfail, Queensland, in hot wet conditions under the quadrapartite agreement, study them, and then make a statement to the House on the toxicity of C.S. gas on isolated tropical peoples, the old and the sick who are not used to contamination?

We study all the results we can make available to ourselves from experiments in the use of this gas. In the past I have given the House many details of the conclusions we have reached. Hon. Members are free to visit the Chemical Defence Experimental Establishment at Porton on any of the open days which are now regularly arranged. This type of gas is used only as an alternative to methods which involve a very much greater risk to life and limb. We must welcome the fact that this much more humane alternative is available.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what rôle Gibraltar plays in North Atlantic Treaty Organisation strategy in the defence of Western Europe and the maintenance of free shipping lanes in the Mediterranean Sea.

Gibraltar provides airfield, communications and naval dockyard facilities.

Is any consideration being given to some part of the cost being borne by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation?

The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation does not bear any costs in Gibraltar, other than some of the costs associated with the presence of a N.A.T.O. commander there. Costs of contributions to N.A.T.O. are borne by the Governments concerned.

Will the Secretary of State undertake to keep the House informed about the Soviet Fleet that is being shadowed by N.A.T.O. forces at present, including British forces?

This is a completely different question, and I will consider what information I give to the House. Her Majesty's forces, and N.A.T.O. forces, carry out a great deal of surveillance on the activities of other naval forces in the world and we do not always consider it desirable to keep the House continuously informed.

asked the Secretary of State for Defence how many of the total labour force at Rosyth are engaged on the servicing of nuclear submarines; and to what extent this number is expected to increase in the next three years.

At Rosyth the average number of workmen directly engaged in servicing nuclear submarines is about 500 at the present time. It is expected that this will increase to over 800 during the next three years. Other staff who provide services in support of those directly engaged also contribute to this task.

Can my hon. Friend say whether it is reasonable to assume that if the nuclear establishment in Scotland were withdrawn, this would result in the diminution, if not the elimination, of this labour force from Rosyth and other parts of Scotland? Can he give me any figures which would show how many employees in Rosyth are indirectly employed on the nuclear submarines?

The important thing to recognise is that the Rosyth task is very much dependent on refitting the four Polaris submarines. The submarine base at Faslane used by Polaris submarines is a considerable employer of labour in Scotland, and it is largely welcome for that reason.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that if, for any reason, the force was withdrawn, it would cause a great deal of concern locally? Is it not another further indictment of the S.N.P. policy?

There is no question of it being withdrawn. It gives very valuable help to the economy of Scotland.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will consider an amendment to the present potato marketing scheme in order to permit a rebate or relief of the levy in the circumstances of severe flood damage where a total acreage of potatoes has been lost.

The Agricultural Marketing Act, 1958, gives my right hon. Friend no power to initiate an amendment to the Potato Marketing Scheme: only the Board itself can do so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the very strong feeling among growers, many of whom, particularly in my area, have suffered grievously as a result of last season's conditions? Would he have a look at this matter again, together with the Potato Marketing Board, and come up with some suggestion for an alteration to the Act to make it possible for relief from levy to be granted in cases of hardship such as those which so many growers suffered last year?

We farmers accept what happens to us when weather conditions go so much against us, as they did last year. This is a very difficult problem. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would reflect on how he would deal with somebody who, because of bad weather, lost his potatoes in a clamp or store as against a person who did not get them lifted.

Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that a number of farmers have lost hundreds of acres of potatoes, with the result that they are making a loss on their farming operations this year? If the matter could be considered again, it would be a great help to them in trying to achieve the targets which the Government would like to see achieved.

If growers want this sort of thing, they must initiate it through the Potato Marketing Board. I appreciate the situation. I am a farmer. This is a weather risk. It has been worse this year than I have ever experienced it before. It is very difficult to legislate on these matters at short notice.

The hon. Gentleman said that he has no power to deal with this matter. Is he not aware that very strong representations were made to him many weeks ago asking him to ensure that such powers were taken and to consider the matter much more carefully? What has he done about it?

I am surprised that hon. Members opposite should ask this Government to take powers. The usual complaint is that we take too many powers. The Board has the right to waive excess acreage levy payments for somebody who has lost his potatoes and to mitigate hardship as a result of crop failure by allowing the payment of the levy to be deferred for a year or two.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will make a statement on his recent meetings in London with members of the Government of the Irish Republic on the export of meat and milk products from the Irish Republic to the United Kingdom.

Discussions between British Ministers and Ministers of the Irish Republic in recent months have covered a wide field. During these discussions, agreement was reached on the quota for butter from the Irish Republic for 1969–70 and on participation by the Irish Republic in arrangements for voluntary restraint of exports to the British market of cheddar and cheddar-type cheese. It was agreed that there should be further talks at official level about the trade in cattle and beef.

During his discussions, did the hon. Gentleman deal with the point that the means of payment of the agricultural subsidy under the Anglo-Irish trade agreement by the Southern Irish Government gives an edge to their meat factories and puts Northern Irish meat factories out of business? One out of four closed down just the other day.

The Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement covered a broad front, including agricultural produce. We know the difficulty which has arisen because of the bias in favour of Irish meat producers. We are looking into that. Discussions took place yesterday. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture is quick in getting the results of discussions, but it cannot be done today.

In view of the admitted dislocation which has taken place, particularly in the cheese market, caused by the Irish trade agreement, would the hon. Gentleman agree with the statement made by the Prime Minister that the Irish trade agreement would in no way harm or prejudice the position of our farmers?

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's premise that things have been as badly upset as he suggests. This is a voluntary agreement. I know that the hon. Gentleman is not a milk producer, but if he consults milk producers he will find that the effects of the cheddar cheese situation last summer have not been all that great on milk prices.

asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will now announce the results of the recent survey of comparative production costs and farm incomes in Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

Leaving aside Northern Ireland's higher feed prices, costs of production taken as a whole are much the same as those in Great Britain. Farm incomes are lower mainly as a result of the difference in farm structure. Comparable farms in Great Britain show similar income trends.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that when he leaves aside the higher feed costs he leaves aside the whole problem? Could he say what the increase in feed costs is to Northern Ireland farmers compared with the increase to equivalent farmers in this country?

I could not give the hon. Gentleman details about feed costs, but, as I said in my Answer, there has not been an appreciable difference overall. The income trend in the type of farming in which the hon. Gentleman is interested is the same as the income trend in the same type of farming in this country.

Would the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that Northern Ireland has a particular problem in the production of eggs? Would he ensure that before the subsidy is taken away completely something is done to help Northern Ireland producers?

I will bear that in mind. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is taking an interest in another part of the world.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the nature of the work being carried out by uncertificated teachers whose appointments have been disapproved by reference panels but who are nevertheless retained in the employment of local education authorities.

The majority are, I understand, engage in non-teaching duties as instructors, supervisors, librarians or teaching auxiliaries.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Would he agree that at this difficult time in Scottish education it would be a very bad thing, in gaining the confidence of the teachers, if those who were unregistered, uncertificated and not approved by reference panels were in charge of children in classrooms? Does that happen and, if so, can he give an idea of the extent?

Those disqualified by reference panels are not permitted to take up teaching duties. Some complaint has been made about certain developments in Lanarkshire. I am looking into them very closely.

May we know precisely the definition of an "instructor" in this context?

It is difficult to give a brief definition, but perhaps I could define the word in this way. The work of an instructor must be regarded as supplementary or ancillary to the work of a registered teacher, and training for it must not be of the sort normally given in a college of education.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he now has to establish passenger transport authorities in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has not yet concluded the discussions referred to in his reply to the hon. Gentleman on 27th November.—[Vol. 774, c. 126.]

Does the Minister agree that the establishment of a passenger transport authority in the Glasgow area would inevitably mean a substantial increase in the rates, which are already causing great hardship? Will he give a specific pledge that the Government will not insist on the establishment of a P.T.A. in Glasgow if Glasgow Corporation and the people of Glasgow do not want it?

My hon. Friend the Minister of State has been having discussions with all the interests concerned within the last two months. These discussions have taken in the local authority associations, the Scottish Transport Group, some of the trade unions concerned, and, particularly, the local authorities comprising the Clyde Valley Planning Advisory Committee; so there are extensive consultations now going on.

Will the Minister give an assurance that, for Scotland as a whole, the Government will not establish P.T.A.s against the wishes of the local authorities and the public in the areas concerned, and will he thus enable this part of the Transport Act to be delayed in the sensible way in which the Minister of Transport decided to delay the egregious quantity licensing sections?

The only area which is under active consideration at the moment is the Glasgow area, and, as I say, extensive consultations are taking place.

asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will now make a statement on his investigations concerning the trading operations connected with the practice known as cube-cutting and its effects upon costs of exports.

We are not in a position to make a statement. The investigation which my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has asked the Director of Public Prosecutions to arrange is not yet completed.

This has been going on for weeks! Cannot we have some productivity from the Minister's Department, or will he ask the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity to refer the matter to the National Board for Prices and Incomes?

The productivity which my hon. Friend is calling for is productivity in the Department of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I obviously cannot make any statement on an investigation which is in progress.

asked the President of the Board of Trade how many businessmen have now obtained copies of the leaflet issued by his Department entitled, Security Advice About Visits to Communist Countries.

I have nothing to add to the answer to my hon. Friend's Question on 20th March.—[Vol. 780, c. 147.]

asked the President of the Board of Trade on how many cases he based the leaflet, Security Advice About Visits to Communist Countries.

I understand the leaflet is based on a considerable number of cases spread over a period of years.

Has not there been over-dramatisation of the danger of real spying by businessmen? Is not the only effective way to export to these countries by personal visits, and is not the leaflet more likely to act as a deterrent than as an incentive? Will my hon. Friend therefore consider withdrawing it?

I do not think that there has been over-dramatisation. It is sensible to advise people who visit Eastern Europe of the hazards that are involved, and this is exactly what the leaflet does. If my hon. Friend were to study it, he would no doubt form a better impression of it.

Is not the most important thing to warn businessmen that if they find they have been compromised or approached in any way they should at once report the matter to the security authorities in this country? Will the Minister consider amending the leaflet by adding that advice to it?

I should have thought that the leaflet gave precisely that advice, that if a person finds himself compromised he should get in touch with the authorities.

Did not this country send an alleged businessman to Russia, and was there not a great deal of indignation by hon. Members when he was arrested, although he subsequently wrote a book in which he admitted that he was a spy?

My hon. Friend is asking me something which is not within the responsibility of the Board of Trade.

Is the Minister aware that if all the advice offered by Her Majesty's Government were as expert, as well-founded and as reasonable as this, they should be congratulated? It is a great exception!

But all the advice offered by Her Majesty's Government is expert and is appreciated.

May I ask my hon. Friend what happens to businessmen who come to this country?

My right hon. Friend is extending the Question far too wide.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will hold a local inquiry into the River Trent Authority's consent under the Clean Rivers (Estuaries and Tidal Waters) Act 1960 to the discharge of effluent by the River Trent Authority into the River Humber at Stallingborough, near Immingham, which is opposed by the Grimsby Rural District Council and the Lincolnshire River Authorities; and if he will withhold his consent to this scheme until a decision is reached by the local authority.

On the information at present available to me, it appears that the Trent River Authority gave the consent in accordance with the appropriate statutes. My right hon. Friend therefore sees no case on the face of it for him to hold a local inquiry. The effluent will not be discharged by the River Trent Authority but by the Appleby Froddingham Steel Company and others; and no further consents are required from him. However, I welcome the hon. Member's suggestion that we should meet, and I have replied to his letter accordingly.

I am much obliged for the Answer, but will the Minister bear in mind that the two local authorities which are most affected by this proposal are bitterly opposed to it and would be very grateful to him if he would hear their objections before he makes a final decision?

I am aware of this. I think the hon. Gentleman and I might discuss this matter first.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department why the average annual cost per prison inmate in 1967 was lower than the comparable figure in 1966; and if he will make a statement.

Mainly because, although the relevant total expenditure in England and Wales rose in 1966–67 compared with the previous year, the increase in the size of the prison population was proportionately greater, thus producing a lower per capita cost figure. Other factors were that receipts were greater in 1966–67 and some charges relating to welfare and after-care, previously charged to the prisons vote, were transferred to other votes.

Does not the hon. Gentleman think that the overcrowding to which he refers in his Answer as being the main reason is a serious problem now for our prison staff, and what estimate does his Department seek to make for how many years ahead of the amount by which this will either increase or decrease?

In reply to the first part of the question, I said that there was an increase in the size of the prison population, and I should be the last to deny the problems of overcrowding. A great deal of thought is being given to the provision of places in prisons over the years. This is an extremely complicated matter and if the hon. Gentleman wishes, I should be prepared to discuss the figures with him.

The Minister referred to receipts of money, presumably partly from the output of prison workshops. Will he tell the House what efforts are being made to expand the profitability of prison workshops, as a means both of increasing receipts by the Treasury and of finding full-time work for those in prison?

I cannot give a snap answer, but I undertake to write to the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the total number of children aged below 10 years who have been assessed as ineducable in each of the last five years in each of the boroughs and urban districts of Wirral; and what were the numbers of these children still living at home at the last convenient date.

I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the figures of children unsuitable for education at school.

Will not the Under-Secretary agree that the vast majority of children are educable but at widely differing rates of progress, and is not it important, in view of the impending reorganisation of departmental responsibility, that every effort should be made to avoid the institutional or domestic isolation of slow learners?

I agree, and if my hon. Friend, once he has examined the figures, wishes to follow this matter up, I shall be prepared for a further Question from him.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what facilities exist for parents living in the Wirral peninsula to have their pre-school children diagnosed and treated for severe mental subnormality; and how many such children were so diagnosed in the area in each of the last five years.

In addition to the services of general practitioners and child health and child guidance clinics, the services are available of five consultant paediatricians and four consultants in subnormality, with paediatric hospital facilities for diagnosis in Chester, Bebington, Birkenhead and Wallasey. There is no specific treatment for sub-normality, but care and training is arranged by the local health authorities, and hospital in-patient accommodation is provided at Newchurch Hospital, near Warrington, Greaves Hall Hospital, near Southport, and at certain other hospital units in the region. No figures are readily available of the total number of pre-school children in the Wirral peninsula classified as severely mentally subnormal.

I thank my hon. Friend for that information, but will not he agree that there is an urgent need for quick and effective diagnosis of childhood disorders such as autism, dyslexia and childhood schizophrenia which, if not handled very early on, can later cause severe difficulties? Is he entirely satisfied that health visitors and general practitioners are fully up to date and conversant with modern medical research?

Yes, again I agree with my hon. Friend on his earlier remarks. In reply to his second point, yes, but there is, as he is fully aware, no inpatient subnormality provision for children in the Wirral peninsula; however, I am advised that the Liverpool Regional Hospital Board has this point very much in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what study she has given to the National Board for Prices and Incomes' Report No. 108; and whether, in view of the Board's recommendation that the 3½ per cent. ceiling should not apply to salary increases for senior executives in the nationalised industries on grounds of comparability, she will reject the Board's conclusions in the report and authorise the enactment of the agreement between the Electrical Contractors Association of Scotland and the Electrical, Electronic and Telecommunications Union-Plumbing Trades Union dated 18th December, 1968.

My right hon. Friend is considering the conclusions of N.B.P.I. Report No. 108 on Pay and Conditions in the Electrical Contracting Industry in Scotland. No final decision will be taken until the parties concerned have been consulted.

While one recognises that top executives in the public sector ought to be paid the market rate for the job which they do and that the National Board for Prices and Incomes is more interested in them than in the salary structure of the electrical contracting industry in Scotland, would the hon. Gentleman not agree that it would cast a curious light on the Government's prices and incomes policy if comparability were regarded as justifying a 60 per cent. increase on a salary of £15,000 a year, but not——

Order. Questions must be brief.

—but not more than 3½ per cent. on a salary of £15 a week?

I have explained repeatedly the criteria set out in the Government's policy. The matters arising from the Report of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on top salaries will be the subject of a statement in the House by my right hon. Friend as soon as possible.

Can my hon. Friend say whether any chairman of a nationalised board has threatened to strike or get out of the industry if he and his colleagues do not get this increase? Will my hon. Friend give a firm assurance that this House will be allowed to debate the report before the Minister come to a decision, and will the Government allow a free vote—in which case these proposed salary increases will never be accepted?

I understand that the Question before the House refers to approval or disapproval of an agreement entered into between the Electrical Contractors Association of Scotland and the E.T.U. I do not think, therefore, that the subject of top salaries arises.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. Surely the Question refers to comparability between two reports. Therefore, is it not in order for the Minister to answer the question which has been put to him by the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton)?

It is always in order for a Minister to answer in the way in which he wishes to answer.

How can the hon. Gentleman defend the idea that the Government's prices and incomes policy is intended to favour lower-paid workers when agricultural workers get less than the Ford workers and when the whole lot get less than the heads of the nationalised industries?

It is not a primary function of the Government's prices and incomes policy to redistribute incomes. Social and fiscal policies have their rôle to play in this, and they are doing it.

Will my hon. Friend agree that the comparability referred to between Scotland and England is not comparable and that, on the basis of what we have heard about the proposed increases for the chairmen of the nationalised boards, it makes the prices and incomes policy a nonsense and totally unacceptable to the lower-paid worker?

On the point about the report on top salaries, I have said that we are studying carefully the recommendations, and that my right hon. Friend will be making a statement to the House as soon as possible—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] As soon as possible—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] As soon as possible. I do not think that the House would want me to try to anticipate my right hon. Friend's statement.

My hon. Friend has been asked a simple question. Can we have an assurance that, before any recommendation by the National Board for Prices and Incomes concerning those at the higher level is implemented by the Government, the House will have an opportunity to express its opinions about it? Is not that the important issue? Can we have a satisfactory answer from my hon. Friend, for a change?

My right hon. Friend knows as well as any hon. Member that that is not a question for me.

Is the Minister aware——

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. If it is not a Question for my hon. Friend, why was he answering it at all? My hon. Friend may not be aware of it, but when a Minister is unable to reply because he believes that the Question does not apply to his Department it is customary to indicate to which Department it applies.

Order. The Minister answers in his own way.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is the second time in two years that we have seen this shameful discrimination against Scottish electricians, who signed an agreement freely with their employers to have equal pay with electricians in England and Wales? Why cannot we have a display of urgency from the Minister? Is he saying that, as in the case of almost every other major dispute in Britain, until the men go on strike we shall not have a statement or any action from the Government?

I made it clear that my reference to a statement was in relation to and arose from Report No. 107 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on top salaries. I am answering and have answered questions about the electrical contracting industry employees in Scotland.