asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will initiate regular medical examinations in all schools or a representative sample of schools to detect and curb the use of drugs by schoolchildren.

No, Sir.

That is a most disappointing Answer. Is my hon. Friend aware that a system of medical inspection would have the effect of encouraging greater collaboration by parents in this very serious matter? Even a sample examination of the sort suggested would have a very considerable deterrent effect on the taking of drugs. Is my hon. Friend aware that at the moment we do not even know the size of the problem?

I do not accept that. We know a great deal more about this problem now than we did two years ago. A tremendous amount of health education is being done by the medical officers in my Department. But since it is impossible to make one medical test to discover all known drugs—for example, the smoking of marijuana cannot be detected at all by tests—grave offence would be given to 99·9 per cent. of all school children if they were systematically examined for drug taking when they are good, healthy, wholesome youngsters.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many grammar schools he estimates will be in operation in the public sector of education by March, 1971; and how many will have disappeared since October, 1964.

Between January, 1965, and January, 1968, the number of maintained grammar schools in England and Wales fell by 130 from 1,285 to 1,155. This trend should increase as the implementation of schemes of comprehensive reorganisation continues, but I cannot estimate a figure for 1971.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that many people who support the extension of comprehensive education wish a grammar school element to be maintained in our education system? Is it the intention of her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that eventually all grammar schools should disappear? If so, what will happen to the children in the top range of ability?

The introduction of comprehensive education means that a grammar school type of education will be available for far more children than ever before. If grammar schools exist alongside comprehensive schools, there must be some kind of test to decide who goes to the grammar schools. The whole aim of comprehensive education is to get rid of the segregation of children into different types of school at the age of eleven.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the existence of the voluntary-aided and direct-grant grammar schools is inhibiting the more rapid introduction of comprehensive education? She gave figures for the maintained schools. Could she give figures for the decline in the number of voluntary aided grammar schools?

I could not do that without notice. As my hon. Friend knows, the Public Schools Commission is considering, for its second report, the direct grant schools.

But is it not a great mistake to go to extremes on this question? Would not the right hon. Lady agree that conditions in, say, a suburb or some rural area differ from conditions in a big city where there are profound educational objections to having nothing but comprehensive schools segregated by neighbourhoods?

The alternative is to have selection at the age of eleven. That is the dilemma. Not only we on this side of the House but many Conservative-controlled authorities are anxious to get rid of selection at eleven which means that grammar schools and comprehensive schools cannot exist side by side.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether it is his policy to seek to provide the maximum of parental choice in secondary education in accordance with the Education Act, 1944.

Yes, Sir. This is why it is the policy of the Government that all secondary school children should be taught in comprehensive schools, which alone can offer a sufficiently wide range of courses to give a meaningful choice to parents.

Does it not follow from that Answer that parental choice of school becomes non-existent if the only pattern of secondary education is that imposed by the right hon. Gentleman regardless of the wishes of local authorities?

I do not know what the right hon. Gentleman thinks happens at present. Eighty per cent. of children are directed to secondary modern schools. The other 20 per cent. are offered grammar school places. We want all children to go to comprehensive schools so that they may have a course which is tailor-made to their unique pattern of ability.

In his Answer, did not the Secretary of State prejudge the whole question of direct-grant schools by saying that all children should go to comprehensive schools? To reiterate the point made from this side of the House, a small proportion of children, particularly those of special ability, might well, with parental choice and guidance, go to specially academic grammar schools without jeopardising comprehensive schools.

I believe that the segregation of children at the age of eleven is one of the greatest remaining social injustices in this country, and it must be ended as soon as possible.

Why should segregation necessarily be at the age of eleven and why is the right hon. Gentleman so dogmatic, particularly in view of the Prime Minister's pledge to defend the grammar schools? What consideration has he given to the misgivings of American educationists—for all their experience—about an almost universal comprehensive system?

I do not know about misgivings on the part of the Americans. Countries throughout the world are following our comprehensive system of reorganisation at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is aware that in Russia one engineer in three is a woman whereas in Great Britain the comparable figure is one in 500; and what plans he has to improve the situation during the next few years as regards providing facilities for women engineers and encouraging them to enter that profession.

I am well aware of these figures. University and further education establishments have places available for women to study engineering, and they welcome applicants. The Government are spending nearly £100,000 a year in publicity to encourage young people to take up engineering, and a "Women in Engineering Year" was launched last month specifically to encourage women to consider this profession.

I thank my hon. Friend for her Answer, but is it not a fact that women in other countries have proved to be extremely efficient in the engineering profession? Cannot she get some kind of propaganda going by means of which girls in secondary schools and universities will come to realise that it is a profession in which they can adapt themselves and be very useful?

I could hardly be a greater ally of my hon. Friend. We deprecate any suggestion to girls at school that they should drop the science subjects at an early stage, as happens very often in some schools. Secondly, we hope that we shall get the maximum coperation from industry to make places available to women as well as to men.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what percentage of accepted candidates for three-year courses at colleges of education had two or more General Certificate of Education A-levels in 1968 and in each of the three preceding years.

The provisional figure for 1968 is 37·0 per cent. The corresponding percentages for 1965, 1966 and 1967 are 38·2, 37·1 and 36·8, respectively.

Is it not desirable if possible to improve that trend, bearing in mind that we want to see a higher proportion of newly-entered teachers completing courses and getting degrees as bachelors of education?

This has been a very steady trend, and those who say that more means worse must face the fact that the proportion of "A" levels in all sections of higher education has been fully maintained, despite the growth in numbers.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the estimated total expenditure in 1968–69 and 1969–70 on school meals and milk.

Net current expenditure on school meals and milk in England and Wales, at constant prices, is estimated at £88·2 million in 1968–69 and £87·6 million in 1969–70.

In view of the size of those figures, does the hon. Gentleman not agree that it is desirable to examine in greater detail the causes of food waste with a view to reducing if not eliminating it?

There has been a saving of £1·7 million in milk for the half-year. I do not think that the waste arises there. But as I think the hon. Member knows, we have recently appointed three catering advisers to deal with such matters as the quality of meals and wastage. Their efforts show signs of being welcomed by the local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will introduce legislation regarding secondary education before the summer adjournment.

No, Sir, not before the summer adjournment.

Will the Minister think long and hard before trying to compel comprehensivisation by Act of Parliament? Will he pay special attention to the wise advice given to us recently by Sir William Alexander that we should avoid making education a political shuttlecock and that further legislation, so far as possible, should be agreed legislation?

What the hon. Gentleman wishes to maintain is a system which draws a line at the age of eleven—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—and divides into two compartments children between whom there is no perceptible difference. If some authorities will not end this voluntarily—and I would prefer it to be done voluntarily—it must be done by this House.

What steps is my right hon. Friend taking currently to abolish segregation altogether, at any age, and when does he think that it will be achieved?

The Government have been trying to do it since 1964 on a voluntary basis. We have achieved a great deal of success. Over 100 of the 163 authorities have made progress. Obviously a number of authorities do not intend to make any progress, and I do not intend to allow the children in those authorities to suffer as a result.

Is it the Minister's intention to present a White Paper or Green Paper to the House before the summer about the proposed legislation? Would it not be quite unprecedented to introduce a controversial Bill making a major change in the relative responsibilities of central and local government without first doing so?

I hope that there will be no controversy about the desire to end this great social injustice. This is where the brain drain is, in fact. The real brain drain is not across the Atlantic but in the eleven-plus. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will support me in this.

If segregation is wrong at the age of eleven, twelve or thirteen, how right is it at the age of eighteen?

Answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he now proposes to introduce legislation to compel local authorities to produce plans for reorganising their schools on comprehensive lines.

I am not ready to make a statement.

But is my right hon. Friend aware that the Birmingham Conservatives, by their bigoted, ideological attitude to this problem, are putting at risk school places for secondary school children within the next year or two? In view of that, together with their threat to sue him, does not my right hon. Friend think that he ought to bring in some legislation very soon?

I will not comment on the threat to sue me. This is a hazard which all Ministers have to endure. I will not comment on the Birmingham position either, but I understand that the position is being reconsidered there and I hope to hear something from the local authority before too long.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is right or sensible to deny to authorities school-building projects which are badly needed and perfectly consistent with the policy of all parties in this House, on the ground that the authorities concerned will not reorganise or undertake to reorganise their existing schools?

All I have asked Birmingham for is information about its plans—that seems to make good sense—before I authorise any secondary projects.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will institute an inquiry into the training of teachers.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) on 27th June last.—[Vol. 767, c. 111–2.]

Did not that reply, which I have clearly in mind, show a lack of understanding of the problems arising about the training of teachers? If the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to reconstitute his National Advisory Council, is this not the obvious subject-matter for the next major inquiry?

Reconstituting the National Advisory Council is an entirely different question. The hon. Gentleman asked for an inquiry. There have been so many problems recently that it would be a good thing to allow teacher training to settle down for a while.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement on his recent discussions with Reading County Borough Council on secondary reorganisation in the borough.

I have nothing to add to what I told the hon. Member on 30th January. I assume that the authority's working party is still considering the issues involved.—[Vol. 776, c. 1510–11.]

Meanwhile, to assist us, would I be correct in understanding from previous Answers today that, as the law stands, the right hon. Gentleman has no power to enforce upon Reading Borough Council a secondary reorganisàtion plan of which it disapproves?

I do not quite know the purpose of that question. As I understand it, the Reading Borough Council has a working party studying this at the moment. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will help it and not hinder it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the total number of all-through comprehensive schools in England at the latest available date; and what was the total number of mathematics, physics and chemistry graduates in those schools.

In January, 1968, there were 441 all-through comprehensive schools in England, compared with 313 a year earlier. In March, 1967, the latest date for which the staffing figures are available, there were in such schools 507 graduates in mathematics; 239 graduates in physics; and 314 graduates in chemistry.

is it not disturbing that the proportion of tuition in these subjects given to fifth, sixth and seventh years, which is given by graduates trained in the subjects, is consistently lower in comprehensive schools than it is in grammar schools? In view of the shortage of the output in these subjects, is not that another reason for regarding the pace of comprehensivisation as being too fast?

On the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary Question, I would take the contrary view. The quicker we can get comprehensive schools established, the more we shall get the transfer of science graduates into those schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will advise the setting up of a Royal Commission in place of the Departmental inquiry to consider the question of the export of manuscripts, records and documents of all sorts.

I would refer my hon. Friend to my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) on 17th April when I sought to make clear that we are not discussing first principles but the difficulties of having a viable, practicable scheme that can be put into operation. For that reason the Working Party, which is now closely studying the problem, is the best way of going about it.—[Vol. 781, c. 1313–15.]

Will the right hon. Lady accept, first, that this is a totally different problem from the export control of works of art? Secondly, does she agree that it is the precise definition of the criteria which needs attention and that this might be done better by a completely independent outside body than by the proposed inter-Departmental inquiry?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. We must keep in mind that a document of historical importance for London may not be so for Scotland. We have local and regional historical interests. This is a difficult problem. It is not a matter of first principles. It is a matter of trying to work out a scheme which can be implemented without having to ask civil servants to drop the jobs which they are doing to take over this one.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what sum of money will be spent as capital expenditure for new buildings or school improvement schemes in the year 1969–70; and what is the project expenditure for 1970–71 and 1971–72 in East Devon.

The building programme for schools in 1969–70 is fixed at £138·5 million. Work on major projects for new schools at Honiton and Dawlish worth £122,000 is expected to start in 1970–71. No decisions have yet been made for 1971–72.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Devon County Council is extremely aggrieved at the low level of expenditure which is to be allowed in the ensuing two years because it is inadequate and much less than in most other areas in the country?

I think that it is a reasonably fair settlement. Four schools, or four biggish projects, are starting or planned this year. I went to Devon and had long discussions with the director and the authority and I saw a great many of the schools. In all the circumstances, I think that it is a reasonably fair programme.

Will the Minister bear in mind that it is a question of money being spent not only on new buildings but on modernising existing buildings? Will he also bear in mind that in Devon there are some schools where the children are most unhappy to go to the toilets because of the state of the toilets?

I agree. There are thousands of old schools throughout the country in need of modernisation. It is a pity that the Conservative Party did not do more when they were in office.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many local education authorities have now informed him of their intention to employ fewer part-time teachers in 1969–70 than they did in 1968–69.

Local education authorities are not required to inform me when they modify their policies on matters within their discretion, such as the employment of teachers.

Although that may be so, in view of the widespread anxiety felt on this score, would it not be a good idea if the Secretary of State instituted some inquiries? May we conclude from his Answer that he is satisfied with the present situation?

I collect statistics on this matter. Between October last year and February this year there was an increase of 800 full-time equivalents. That is many more teachers, of course. In February this year the figure was the highest ever—approaching the 20,000 mark. Overall, the position is very satisfactory, although I realise that one or two authorities are cutting down.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when a further specific capital allocation for schools in educational priority areas will be announced by his Department.

I have no specific plans beyond the current £16 million programme. But in allocating any resources available for the replacement or improvement of old schools I shall continue to give preference to those in educational priority areas.

While thanking my right hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he agrees that it is a pity that, immediately after the Plowden Report, a specific allocation for educational priority areas which was put into the programme is now not to be continued in that specific form? Is it not important to keep up this concept of the priority area, not just in the immediate years after Plowden but in the years to come?

I agree with my hon. Friend. If he scrutinises the regional lists which have been published, or the planning list for 1969–70, he will see, first, that the building programme has been bent considerably in the direction of the educational priority areas. Secondly, he will notice that we have authorised the payments to teachers in educational priority areas. Thirdly, he will notice that the first phase of the urban programme has been announced.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what grant the Arts Council has made to prevent the closure of Manchester Opera House.

The practice of the Arts Council is to consider making a grant in such cases only when requested to do so, and the Manchester local authority has not asked for one.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be deplorable if the rumoured tranformation of the last Opera House in Manchester into a bingo hall were true? Will my right hon. Friend have some consultations with the Manchester authority and others in the area to ensure that that does not happen?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, the Secretary-General of the Arts Council has written to the Town Clerk reaffirming the Arts Council's view that it is of great importance that people in Manchester should continue to have the opportunity of enjoying the Royal Ballet, the Sadler's Wells Opera, the National Theatre, the Royal Shakespeare Company and other companies of real quality. For this reason, the Arts Council intends to continue subsidising these visits within the limits of its resources and to help in many other ways.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) what percentage and numbers of students entering universities in the year commencing October, 1968 are reading scientific, technological, engineering and arts subjects, respectively; and how this position has changed from the previous two years;

Since the Answer contains a number of figures, I will publish it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is it not a fact that the number of students in universities taking scientific and technological subjects as a percentage of the whole is diminishing? On top of the fact that many places are not being taken up in the universities in these subjects, does not this present the hon. Lady and the Government with

It might, if it were true, but I am glad to say that it is not entirely true. Between 1966 and 1967 the percentage proportion of science places showed a slight increase. The percentage proportion of technological places showed a slight decrease, but less than the increase in science. Although the finalised figures for October, 1968, are not yet available from the U.G.C., there is reason to believe, on the provisional figures, that the pattern is again repeated.

As this is "Women in Engineering Year", may I ask the Minister what she is doing to encourage more women to become students in engineering and scientific subjects?

The right hon. Gentleman was kind enough not to suggest that I abandon my job and become an engineer, but I take the hint. I should like to stress that we are endeavouring, through project technology and by persuading the universities to broaden their entrance qualifications, to get more girls and boys available to take technological and applied science courses.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether, in the light of the recent statement by the Chairman of the Science Research Council, he will now make a statement about the possibility of British participation in the 300 GeV nuclear accelerator at C.E.R.N.

I have nothing to add to the reply my right hon. Friend gave to my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) on 24th October last.—[Vol. 770, c. 328.]

Is there not every sign here of another first-class administrative muddle? The Chairman of the Science Research Council assumed in a public statement that we are going to join the C.E.R.N. project in two years. The Government say that there is no possibility of this and that, if it happens at all, participation must be put off indefinitely. Could the hon. Lady please give us some more definite statement, if only for the sake of the civil servants working at Nimrod, many of whose jobs will be put in jeopardy if we do join C.E.R.N.?

The Government made a decision and have at no stage since that time changed their decision. However, we accept the freedom of choice of the scientific and academic community to express their own views, and, in a purely domestic lecture, the Chairman of the Science Research Council expressed a view which is well known to the House and which, in this respect, differs from that of the Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans he has for in-service training facilities for full-time youth service personnel.

The training of full-time youth workers must be looked at as a whole and the starting point is initial training. The Department, in association with the Youth Service Development Council, is at present replanning the provision for initial training and an announcement will be made as soon as possible. This will provide a basis for considering the need for in-service training, the importance of which I recognise.

Will there be anything on this subject in the Report of the Youth Service Development Council which will be published soon, following the work of the Milson and Fairbairn Committees?

Yes, the Youth Service Development Council Report on the whole future of the service has a great deal to say about basic training and subsequent in-service training.

Is my hon. Friend aware that some Conservative-controlled local authorities, including my own, have made such drastic cuts in the youth service budget for the forthcoming year as to seriously damage the whole fabric of the youth service and that there will be no one to train if we go on like this?

I regret that very much. I said in a recent Adjournment debate that the amount of resources additionally reallocated this year for the youth service and adult education was considerably above the 3½ per cent. for education as a whole.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what guidance he has given to local education authorities about grants for post-graduate students in management and business studies; and if he will make a statement.

The main responsibility in this field from 1969–70 will lie with the Social Science Research Council, and local authorities are aware of this.

But did my hon. Friend see the report in The Times on 8th April which referred to a cut of 60 per cent. on the 1967–68 figure in the total grant in this field? Is that not deplorable? Should we not be moving to expand our educational facilities in this direction, if only for our long-term economic needs? Rather than leave it to that Council, will my hon. Friend look into this and see that we do not have that sort of cut?

May I make the position absolutely clear, since there has been a good deal of misunderstanding reflected in the Press about this figure? The Department of Education and Science asked the local authorities to give returns of the number of bursaries for management courses. We received a return which showed, for 1967–68, that the number of L.E.A. bursaries in this field was 149. We then made arrangements that the S.S.R.C., when it took these bursaries over, would be able to bring about a minor expansion of the total number of bursaries.

On a point of order. Could not this answer be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT to save time?

We are trying to find the reasons for this discrepancy and we shall be making a statement to the House shortly, but we are still studying the matter.

Order. In answer to the point of order, long answers mean fewer Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the total spent on education in 1964–65; and what is the estimated figure for 1969–70.

Actual public expenditure on education in Great Britain, including school meals and milk and local libraries and museums, in 196465 was £1,527 million. I estimate that expenditure in 1969–70 will be £2,322 million, an increase of 52 per cent.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is such a splendid Answer that I am rendered almost speechless. Will he continue to resist the incontinent demands of the brass-faced business men opposite for cuts in public expenditure and see that these facts are driven into the heads of the tiny minority of congenital belly-achers on this side of the House?

If it left my hon. Friend speechless, it must have been quite an Answer. The incontinence of the Conservative Party is well known, of course. As in most other spheres, this is part of the excellent record of this Government, which must be maintained.

Will the right hon. Gentleman remind his hon. Friend, when he is in a mood to listen, that the primary school population alone has risen by half a million since 1964? Is it not obvious that this component of expenditure is no more the consequence of anything done by the present Government than, for different reasons, it was due to myself?

I am not sure what that means. However, what the present situation means is that under this Government there has been a massive shift of resources from other areas of spending to education, and, for the first time ever in our history, we are spending more on education than on defence this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the sum spent on school building in 1964–65; and what is the estimated figure for 1970–71.

The allocations for school-building projects, including those for special school, announced for 1964–65 totalled £85 million. The corresponding figure for 1970–71 is £160·5 million. I take it that my hon. Friend will now be quite speechless.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is another election promise on its way to fulfilment? Can she exert any influence on local authorities when they build these schools so that the whole community may gain the benefit of the capital expenditure and the schools are not used only from nine o'clock to four o'clock during the school year?

This is a very important point, which we are trying to impress on local authorities. We hope that they will take that course.

Will the right hon. Lady state the corresponding figures for school improvements? Was it not the President of the Board of Trade who said that that was the important element which gave us the true measure of our priorities?

I had not the separate figures for the improvements for new school buildings, but, on minor works, which means the improvement of older buildings, the figure for 1964–65 was £18 million and for 1970–71 it will be £30 million.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further negotiations have taken place with the Marylebone Cricket Club over the proposed South African cricket test tour next year.

Visits to this country by sports teams from overseas are a matter for their hosts, the governing body of the Sport in England, in this instance the newly-created M.C.C. Council. In the case of a South African cricket team, there would be no question of any grant from Government funds, and whilst I am naturally available to any governing body which may wish to consult me, sporting visitors are in the same category as all other visitors from that country.

Would it not be absolutely disgraceful if, following the disclosures over the d'Oliviera affair, the South African cricket team came here to play in Britain next year? Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us consider that the advice which was given by the right hon. Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Sir Alec Douglas-Home) to the M.C.C. was deplorable and unworthy of anyone in his position in public life?

I have made it clear many times that I deprecate the choice of teams on any racial basis, and there is no question of money being given for tours here or for British teams to tour in South Africa while apartheid remains. But it is purely a matter for the sports concerned whether these ethical and moral questions should be implemented in the manner which many hon. Members would like.

Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that contacts between nationals of different nations is one way of moderating attitudes and that this has been particularly borne out by the moderation of attitudes between the West and Russia since the last World War? Is it not juvenile to cut off these contacts and to ostracise another country, which is merely self-defeating?

I am aware that there is a genuine feeling among many sporting folk that the considerations which the hon. Gentleman has in mind are true, but, in my view, there is absolutely no evidence that the continuing contacts in South Africa are having any beneficial and civilising effects on the Administration there.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give an assurance that in the provision of extra places for medical training women will have equal opportunities with men for entry and that merit shall be the only qualification, without sex discrimination.

I would refer the hon. Lady to my Answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, East (Mrs. Renée Short), on 17th April. I am sure that universities, which are responsible for their own decisions on the admission of students, will bear in mind the advice of the Royal Commission on Medical Education on this matter.—[Vol. 781, c. 1313.]

That Answer was a little difficult to follow having regard to the fact that when the conversation on the expansion of medical training took place last week, which was after 17th April, it was stated that the Question ought to be put to the Secretary of State for Education. I am presumably right in assuming that there will be no sex discrimination. I trust that this opportunity will be available for all medical entrants, covering the whole field and not just a new extension? Perhaps I could have an answer to the question, is that correct?

The hon. Lady does not seem quite to appreciate that universities in this country are autonomous. We can only advise them, as we have done, to exercise no sex discrimination. We cannot dictate to them that they should exercise no sex discrimination.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in his consideration of a scheme of public lending rights for public libraries, based on a charge for each book borrowed.

A Departmental Working Party is reviewing various possibilities and, in particular, the Arts Council's proposals, but none which involves a charge on borrowers.

Since the right hon. Lady said earlier that she could not find the £2 million of public money involved in this scheme and since a penny on borrowing would yield £2½ million, why does she not put the cost of the scheme on to those who benefit from it, the readers, rather than on the taxpayers, who do not?

I know that a few hon. Members opposite look with favour on a small charge for borrowing, but I hope there will not be many who do so because we must rule out entirely the idea that we should breach the principle of a free library service. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] There are all kinds of people, old and young, who are attracted by books, even though they may not all be first-class literature. This is a gain which we have. While we are grateful to the Arts Council for putting forward a scheme acceptable both to authors and publishers, it is not acceptable to many local library associations or to the Association of Municipal Corporations. We are working on various schemes and we hope to bring the various interested parties closely together.

Would there not be an acceptable medium whereby local authorities could make a contribution from rates to pay those authors whose books are loaned through local libraries, thus maintaining the principle of a free library to those who want to use it while at the same time making a proper contribution for those who write the books?

I am sure that the Working Party will listen to anything that is said by hon. Members and will consider it. The Working Party is also considering other schemes which may raise funds, but not from rates or taxes.

Can the right hon. Lady say when we are likely to see the Report of the Working Party, which seems to be taking a long time? Has she seen reports about the alarming situation in Sweden where authors are taking militant action, which we do not want to see happening here?

In Government everything is a matter of priorities. The £2 million which it is reckoned would be the cost of the Arts Council scheme would not in any circumstances be found from the Arts Council grant. This must be additional Treasury expenditure and, as additional Treasury expenditure, it is a matter of Government priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many temporary playgroups for younger schoolchildren he estimates were organised by educational authorities in England and Wales during the recent school holidays.

Arrangements of this kind are within the discretion of local education authorities and I have no returns on which to base an estimate. I think it is a very worth while form of activity.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that projects of this kind can make a very significant contribution to the social life of deprived areas of major urban centres? Has she studied the very successful experiment in Portsmouth? Will she encourage all local authorities wherever possible to take similar action?

Yes I shall certainly encourage local authorities and I will go a step further. I am willing to consider proposals made under the urban programmes for areas of special social need.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many of the largest twenty local authorities in England and Wales have no municipal museums or art galleries; and whether he will make a statement.

Excluding the Greater London area where there are special circumstances affecting the pattern of museum provision, only Cardiff of the twenty largest municipal authorities in England and Wales has no museum or art gallery provided or maintained by the local authority. The National Museum of Wales is in Cardiff and this is assisted financially by the City Council. It is for each local authority authorised to provide museums or art galleries to decide whether and to what extent to do so.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that in comparison with other European countries our provincial centres are sadly lacking in the standard of these amenities? What can be done to improve these facilities?

I should like to see standards improved, and they are improving. Total expenditure by local authorities on museums and art galleries in 1967–68 amounted to £3·9 million, an increase of 13 per cent. over the previous year. The Government made a grant of £100,000 towards the cost of purchasing objects for display in those museums and galleries. The area museum councils are also being helped. We are anxious to improve standards.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on his visit to the Norfolk primary schools; and what proposals he now has for the improvement of the buildings.

I saw much of interest during the visit, which covered secondary schools and a technical college as well as primary schools. I am authorising four new primary schools in areas of growing population in the county.

As there was criticism by the East Anglian Planning Council of the environmental circumstances of these primary schools, does not my right hon. Friend think that something should be done to raise the standard of primary schools in Great Yarmouth and Norwich and to think of the whole of Norfolk as a priority area?

I could not judge about the criticism by the Planning Council, but from the schools which I saw there was certainly nothing to justify the criticism made in the Planning Council's report.