asked the Minister for the Civil Service into how many separate units the proposed civil service college will be divided; and where they will be located.

Three, of which two are to be residential. As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced on 21st November last, one of the latter will be at Sunningdale Park, near Ascot, but I cannot yet make a statement about the other. The third unit will make use of existing non-residential premises in central London.—[Vol. 773, c. 1550–1.]

Can the right hon. Lady tell us when she will be able to make a statement about this and can she also say whether it is true that the other part of the unit may be sited in Scotland and Wales? Does she think that it is wise to break up the bits of the college?

No decision has so far been made about the third part. We have to take into account a number of factors. There is no certain truth in the suggestion that the hon. Member has made. As he will know, representations have been made from hon. Members on both sides of the House about the possibilities of Scotland and Wales, but no decision is in sight at the moment.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a very powerful Scottish case in this connection?

Yes. In weighing up all the factors we are anxious to take account of the reasonable possibility of the third residential unit being in some part of the country other than London.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a further statement on the Civil Service College.

I cannot at present add to the Answer which my right hon. Friend the Minister without Portfolio gave to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) on 17th March.

I understand that my right hon. Friend wishes to increase employment opportunities in the regions by siting one or more of the colleges there, but will she also accept that there Es a very considerable advantage in having the colleges at least near London if only to make certain that there will be the necessary interchange of ideas between the colleges and the Civil Service itself?

I think this point is taken full account of in our decision that the residential college shall be near London and the non-residential college in London. I think there is enough room for the third part of the college to be sited outside London without necessarily interfering with the kind of objectives my hon Friend has in mind.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service to what extent the pace of implementation of the Fulton Report by his department will be affected by the work of the Constitutional Commission.

Not at all.

If the Constitutional Commission is a serious undertaking, surely its concern must be closely with matters that are also discussed in the Fulton Report, in particular, the constitutional position of Whitehall, the powers of civil servants and the structure of the Civil Service. I do not see how these things can be separated. Surely they must be taken together?

The hon. Member appears to be overlooking the fact that the whole purpose of this post-Fulton exercise is to create a Civil Service which is flexible and adaptable. That purpose being achieved, the Civil Service should be quite capable of adapting to whatever proposals may be made by the Constitutional Commission.

asked the Minister for Civil Service what estimates he has made of the annual cost of protecting the pension rights of members of public sector schemes who change employment before the normal retiring age by giving full transferability, and of the savings to be made by restricting the degree of protection to preservation only.

The estimated additional costs of preservation and of transferability of pensions for the country as a whole were given by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for Employment and Productivity in reply to a Question by the hon. Member on 24th February. Of these costs it is estimated that about one-half would fall on public sector schemes.—[Vol. 778; c. 1051.]

Does the right hon. Lady accept that transferability is the only acceptable target, and that preservation is a very poor alternative?

No. I think that the hon. Member, quite sincerely, underrates the vast importance of achieving preservation. He will recognise that the decision about this, as was earlier explained in the White Paper, rests on the feasibility of achieving full transferability, but he is mistaken to underrate the immense achievement to be made by preservation.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what is the composition of the committee which has been reviewing the Civil Service pension scheme in the light of the White Paper, National Superannuation and Social Insurance; what recommendations it has made; and if he will make a statement.

The committee, which is under the chairmanship of an Under-Secretary in the Civil Service Department, consists of 10 Official Side members from Government Departments, and 12 Staff Side members. With permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT. The committee is undertaking a far-reaching review and its recommendations cannot be expected for some considerable time.

Will the Civil Service be contracted out of the new scheme?

I think that the hon. Member is as much aware as any hon. Member of what is being tackled by the committee, namely, reconstructing the entire superannuation scheme. It is far too early to say what the position will be at the end of the committee's considerations.

Can the right hon. Lady at least give an assurance that there is no question of reducing the noncontributory pensions which are part of a civil servant's terms of service, in order to adjust to the situation in the light of national superannuation?

None of those factors comes into the matter. I can certainly assure the right hon. Gentleman about that.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what proposals he has for revising the salary structure of senior civil servants.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my reply on 1st April to my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham, North (Mr. Arthur Lewis.)—[Vol. 781, c. 81.]

Does the right hon. Lady acknowledge that the National Board for Prices and Incomes implicitly recognised that the salaries of these people could not be insulated from the consequences of the recent increases in pay by the chairmen of nationalised undertakings—a point reinforced by the latest increase given to Lord Melchett? Is the right hon. Lady seized of the point?

It is not a question of whether I am seized of it; the question is that the pay of higher civil servants is under review, at its own initiative, by the Standing Advisory Committee. This Committee is expected to report in due course, and no doubt will have borne in mind the report of the N.B.P.I. on top salaries in the private sector.

If my right hon. Friend does bear in mind the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Owestry (Mr. Biffen), will she also bear in mind that it would give very much pleasure to hon. Members on this side of the House if she would try to treat nurses on the same basis as the hon. Member has suggested?

That raises a rather different question.

The right hon. Lady will be aware that following the statement by her right hon. Friend on salaries of the chairmen of the nationalised industries, some confusion has arisen in regard to the prices and incomes norm. Is it her understanding that the norm is 3½ per cent. in total, or 3½ per cent. going back to the date when the last increase took place?

On this question we have to await the conclusions of the Standing Advisory Committee which has been looking into the matter. In due time no doubt it may report and take due account of comparability, norms and other questions which arise.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service (1) what categories of civil servant travelling abroad on Government business are normally required to finance their official foreign currency requirements from their personal resources, pending subsequent reimbursement; and

(2) what arrangements are made to provide foreign currency in advance to those categories of civil servant who are not normally required to finance their official foreign currency requirements from their personal resources when travelling abroad on Government business.

No civil servant is required to meet the official expenses of a visit overseas from his own resources. If he wishes, he can get an accountable advance in sterling from his Department.

That is a very interesting reply. If these arrangements are possible for civil servants, why not for Members of Parliament?

I understand that in fact hon. Members can receive sterling advances, but detailed arrangements are of course a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I know that the hon. Member had some difficulty in a recent experience. I hope that it has been sufficiently clarified by the correspondence he has had. If not, no doubt he will raise it further with the Foreign Secretary or me.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service by what percentage the index of earnings has risen during the period from 1st April, 1965, to 31st March, 1969; and what was the percentage increase during this period in the maximum earnings, exclusive of London weighting allowance, of senior and chief executive officers in the Civil Service.

From March, 1965, to February, 1969, the figures are 25·6 per cent., and 16·8 and 17·3 per cent. respectively.

Does this not indicate that the middle ranges of the Civil Service are falling behind people outside in the general rise in wages and salaries? Is it not rather a pity if they are to fall behind, and shall we not have difficulty in attracting the right type of person to the middle ranges of the Civil Service?

The last detailed comparisons were made on 1st January, 1968, but the period before the next comparisons are made has been agreed between the Official and Staff Sides of the National Whitley Council.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service on what date was the London weighting allowance for civil servants last increased; and whether he will now take steps to increase this allowance further in view of its inadequacy.

On 1st November, 1967, in accordance with the recommendations of Report No. 44 of the National Board for Prices and Incomes. The Report, which the Government accepted as a whole, recommended that the next review should be effective from 1st November, 1970. There are no new factors to justify departing from this recommendation.

Perhaps the right hon. Lady would bear in mind that if she wanted to adjust the salaries to which I referred the London weighting allowance might be the way of doing so?

This is one of the points that the Staff Side will be discussing in the Whitley Council machinery.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will institute a system whereby Members' letters are formally acknowledged by Departments within one week of receipt; in cases where a final reply cannot be sent if he will arrange for an interim reply to be sent in three weeks; and where by the fifth week a final reply is still not available if he will arrange for reasons to be given to the hon. Member submitting the original correspondence.

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave him on 23rd January.—[Vol. 776, c. 172.]

It was because that was unsatisfactory that I put down this Question, and the Answer to this is also unsatisfactory. Does my right hon. Friend think it fair that hon. Members should be kept waiting five, six and in some instances 10 or 12 weeks for a reply which in some instances the Minister could have obtained within 24 hours? As this is not a good thing from the constituents' point of view, will the Minister do something to speed up replies?

I agree that if that is the case my hon. Friend has something to complain about, and I hope that he will not hesitate to let me have details of particular instances he has in mind. He will recognise, however, that in some cases delay is inevitable where contact has to be made with local or regional offices. I hope that he will let me know of cases where there is delay.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what he has done to implement the recommendations of the Fulton Committee as to greater use of professionally qualified accountants within the Civil Service.

An interdepartmental working party is following up the recommendations of the Fulton Committee. We hope that progress will not be too much affected by the national shortage of accountants.

May we take it from that Answer that the right hon. Lady supports the recommendations of the Fulton Committee in regard to qualified accountants?

We are now following up those recommendations. It remains to be seen how far we can follow them up with precision.

Is consideration being given to the problems of the Inland Revenue, which is losing many accountants to private law and insurance firms?

One would hope that consideration now being given—discussions, for example, with the institutions involved—will result in the kind of solution that will assist in the staffing departments generally of the Civil Service concerning accountants.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many persons were in post in each of the grades of the professional accountant

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether, in future, Great Britain will support the admission of new members to the United Nations being decided by a majority vote of United Nations members.

Under the Charter, new admissions require a decision of the General Assembly by two-thirds majority, upon the recommendation of the Security Council by affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the Permanent Members. We see no reason to seek any change in these requirements.

Is not the admission of China as important for the United Nations as for the world itself? Is not this question a matter of representation rather than new membership, because China is already a member? When a similar question of representation arose in the case of the Congo, was this not decided by majority vote?

The policy of Her Majesty's Government has been stated many times in this House in relation to China's representation. It is true that there are two authorities who claim to be the Government of China and, therefore the right to have their representative occupy the existing seat. This

With permission I will circulate the figures in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that since a majority vote at the United Nations could possibly represent a tenth of the population of the world and a hundredth of its real income, a simplistic view of the word "majority" is to be avoided at all costs?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the 20th Anniversary Ministerial Meeting of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation which he attended in Washington.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on his visit to the United States in mid-April.

My right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and the Secretary of State for Defence attended the Twentieth Anniversary Meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Washington. During his visit my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs had useful talks with other N.A.T.O. Foreign Ministers, and called on the Secretary-General of the United Nations. The unanimous conclusions of the N.A.T.O. Ministerial meeting are set out in the communiqué which I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Why did not the Council proceed with these proposals, which were made as long ago as December, 1967, for mutually balanced troop reductions, as this seems to be something which is in the interests of both sides?

The Council of Ministers, as my hon. Friend will see from the communiqué, reaffirmed their Governments' intention to continue the search for real progress towards mutually beneficial relations between East and West and to explore all proper means of opening negotiations. I think that, in the light of the events which have happened since, that is an important statement of policy.

During his visit to Washington the Foreign Secretary was quoted as saying that there was scope for East-West negotiations provided the Russians could confine their aggressive instincts to within their own alliances. May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman subscribes to the Brezhnev doctrine as representing the views of the British electorate?

The hon. Member should be very careful about drawing very large conclusions from a general observation of the kind to which he has referred. He should not infer any such conclusions.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any comments to make on the three very important proposals made by the President of the United States to the meeting in question?

These were considered by the Council as a whole and reflected in the communiqué. As I think the right hon. Gentleman knows, studies will follow by the permanent representatives of N.A.T.O. on the suggestion made by President Nixon.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what further soundings he has taken about the feasibility of an international ban on the supply of arms to Nigeria and Biafra.

Our discussions on this question continue to point to the conclusion that progress towards peace cannot be made by seeking an international arms embargo in isolation from a ceasefire and talks between the two sides.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the capacity of the Biafrans to offset the loss of Umuahia by retaking Owerri seems to indicate that this war may go on for a very long time? Why is my hon. Friend so negative about the question of an arms ban initiative, or is the truth of the matter that when he and the Prime Minister were in Lagos they agreed to step up arms supplies to Nigeria in exchange for a bombing halt?

I can refute the allegation about the visit of my right hon. Friend and myself to Lagos. Equally, I would not wish to speculate on the military significance of Umuahia or Owerri. We have stated firmly and clearly that we believe that this war should be ended by a political settlement. The Federal Government have offered that, providing the acceptance of one Nigeria is implicit in their discussions, all else can follow. It is to this end that we and others ought to be directing our attention.

Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House what is the present situation of the fighting in Biafra?

Other than that it is rather confused, no.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement regarding his department's intentions concerning the future employment of Mr. Tony Lee.

I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend said in the House on 14th April.—[Vol. 781, c. 799–801.]

The right hon. Gentleman did not say very much on that occasion. Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether Mr. Lee is returning to Anguilla? If he is not, can he take it that the congratulations of my right hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Mr. Birch) to the Prime Minister on at last finding an opponent of his own size were, to say the least, somewhat premature?

My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, in making his statement to the House, said that Mr. Lee was coming home for consultations and coming on leave. Mr. Lee arrived on Friday. He will be having discussions with my right hon. Friend this week.

Is it not about time that this matter was cleared up, because the House has been given to understand that Mr. Lee will be returning, yet Mr. Lee himself obviously did not expect to return? Would it not be a good idea to appoint somebody of some standing and some stature to persuade the Anguillans about their future—perhaps even a distinguished West Indian?

I am attempting to clear this up, but the hon. Gentleman is making rather heavy weather of this situation. Mr. Lee is still Her Majesty's Commissioner. Mr. Cumber is the Acting Commissioner and is there at this moment. Mr. Lee is on leave. His future will be discussed with the Secretary of State when they meet later this week.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what decision has been reached by the four-Power conference on their efforts to promote a settlement in the declared war by the Arab States against the State of Israel.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress at the four-Power talks on the Middle East.

Representatives of the four Powers have had four meetings since their first meeting in New York on 3rd April. It is clear that all four wish to make a success of the talks, but the House will not expect me to disclose details about their discussions.

Is it not clear that the Israeli Government have stated that no settlement is possible unless as a result of negotiations between themselves and the representatives of the Arab States? Further, how is it possible, for example, for the Soviet Union to adopt an objective attitude in view of their sending a large consignment of arms to the Arab States and, moreover, encouraging anti-Semitism in Russia?

As my right hon. Friend will know, I cannot give answers on behalf of the Soviet Government. However, I think that the talks will serve an extremely important purpose if they succeed in their aim, which is to reach and define agreements on all matters dealt with in the Security Council resolution of November, 1967, which, the House will recall, was promoted by Her Majesty's Government. There is certainly no question, as my right hon. Friend knows, of the four Powers seeking to impose a solution, but if we could get four-Power agreement on these main issues arising from the resolution it will be an important step forward.

Does not the Minister of State agree that perhaps a good way to start this business would be to free the ships of Britain and the other nations which are tied up in the Bitter Lakes? A few weeks ago the Government were very optimistic that something was about to happen. When will it happen, and what is being done?

Seven nations are in the unfortunate situation of having their ships detained in the Lakes. We have taken a leading part in trying to find a solution. It is a great disappointment that no solution has yet been found. This is one of the issues which would fall for solution if we could, through the four-Power talks, find a solution to the wider problem.

Are the four Powers carefully studying the peace proposals of King Hussein, which provided for the acceptance of Israel by the Arab countries and are a good example of the King's courage and good sense? While accepting that a settlement cannot be imposed, is it not clear from Israel's rejection of these proposals and also her rejection in advance of any settlement by the four Powers, that something more than persuasion will be needed if a settlement is to be reached?

We had better postpone consideration of how best to implement the recommendations until we have the recommendations. I can assure my hon. Friend that the four Powers will be discussing the proposals of King Hussein, because, as I understand them, they are exactly in line and essentially the same as the items in the Security Council resolution.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the nature of his reply to the official proposal for discussion of East-West security in Europe made to him on behalf of the Warsaw Pact governments by the Hungarian representative in London at the beginning of April

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what response Her Majesty's Government intends making to the recent official proposal by the Warsaw Pact members for a European security conference.

Diplomatic exchanges with other Governments are of course confidential. As the House will have seen from the communiqué of the recent North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Ministerial meeting at Washington,

"the Allies propose, while remaining in close consultation, to explore with the Soviet Union and the other countries of Eastern Europe which concrete issues best lend themselves to fruitful negotiation and an early resolution".

Her Majesty's Government intend to play a full and positive part in this process.

Why not seize this offer with both hands? If its sincerity is doubted, would not discussion be the best way of testing it?

It is clear that the resolution of the N.A.T.O. Ministers was to proceed by discussion to see whether it is possible to have fruitful negotiations of a formal character and to identify which subjects can best be dealt with as a priority. As the Government have made clear on many occasions, provided that there is careful preparation, and provided that there is a prospect of success and that the North American members of N.A.T.O. can be included, we welcome the prospect of such a conference.

As the right hon. Gentleman has reminded us, the communiqué spoke about the preparation of this list of concrete issues. When are Ministers likely to meet to discuss the issues a list of which is being prepared?

The first step has been to try to identify these issues through our permanent representatives in the N.A.T.O. Council which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, meets weekly and, if necessary, even more frequently. I think that it is too early to talk of a special Ministerial meeting until we know the outcome of this study.

Would not all Western democratic organisations be better off disembarrassed of the Greek dictatorship? Therefore, will my right hon. Friend deny the report on the front page of The Guardian today?

This hardly arises from the Question, but if my hon. Friend reads to the end of the same article he will see a formal denial by the Foreign Office of the earlier contents of the article. I should not have thought it necessary to ask for that to be reaffirmed, but I am glad of the opportunity to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will propose that the existence of a constitution with full adult franchise shall be a condition of membership of the Commonwealth.

No, Sir. There are no formal conditions for membership of the Commonwealth, and any attempt to introduce these would be inconsistent with the basis of the Commonwealth association.

Does my hon. Friend really say that the present condition for membership of the Commonwealth is satisfactory in practice? Is it not the case that the Commonwealth has decided that South Africa is incompatible with membership? What about Guyana? Is not the present Prime Minister of that country gerrymandering for office? Is this a satisfactory condition of membership of the Commonwealth?

Membership of the Commonwealth is a matter for the Commonwealth as a whole. In 1961 South Africa withdrew voluntarily from the Commonwealth; she was not expelled. The constitution of any member of the Commonwealth is a matter for the Government of that member country and her people, and is not suitable for discussion within the framework of the Commonwealth.

Leaving aside the unjustifiable slur on the Prime Minister of Guyana, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he would not agree that as adult franchise is important, so is the legal existence of a free opposition? If we were to apply that test, the Commonwealth would be very thin on the ground indeed.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to paragraph 38 of the communiqué of the conference of Prime Ministers this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will raise at the Security Council, as a threat to world peace, the present frontier dispute between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and China.

No, Sir.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that in view of all the dark hints which are being dropped by both sides, including yesterday by Lin Piao, that the use of nuclear weapons cannot be ruled out in this serious dispute, the Security Council should be asked to look into this? Does not this indicate the need for the Security Council itself to have represented on it people who can claim to speak for China?

I dealt with the latter part of that question in answer to a supplementary question earlier. Her Majesty's Government are not themselves involved in the Sino-Soviet dispute, and I have no reason to suppose that intervention by us would assist.

With the utmost respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Bebington (Mr. Brooks), is there any valid reason why we should prevent these two Communist countries from being at each other's throats?

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will propose at the United Nations that sanctions be applied against those member States which refuse to become signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

No, Sir. Having signed and ratified the Non-Proliferation Treaty, we are doing, and shall do, everything we can to persuade those States which have not yet signed to do so. The threat of sanctions, however, would be quite inappropriate in this context.

Is it not a waste of time having a nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty when leading States, such as the two leading members of the European Economic Community, apparently find themselves unable to sign?

I am naturally concerned to bring the treaty into effect with as many members as possible, but the method suggested by my hon. Friend would be totally inappropriate to achieve that. As to the two States he mentioned, France made it clear that she would not sign but would behave as if she had. Being a nuclear Power, she would not be restricted in the way that non-nuclear Powers are restricted. The German Government are, I understand, still considering the position.

Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman tried to explain to his hon. Friends and, indeed, to his right hon. Friends that from long experience it is evident that the only effect of the application of sanctions is to expose the fatuity of those who try to apply them?

No, I do not accept the general proposition put by the hon. Gentleman, but I would agree that this issue that we are discussing would be inappropriate for sanctions.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what decision he has come to on proposals for the type of international organisation to control future development of the sea bed.

We favour the establishment of an international régime governing exploration and exploitation of the deep sea bed as soon as practicable; such a régime should be effective, impartial and not unduly restrictive. Our view was more fully explained in a statement by our representative in the United Nations Sea-Bed Committee on 28th March, a copy of which has been placed in the Library of the House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is urgent to reach agreement on this before some controversial issue arises?

Naturally, I should like to give an urgent decision on this question, but I think the hon. Member and the House must realise that it will be a very long job to work out a comprehensive agreement covering the areas and the rest of the difficult issues involved in the future exploration of the sea bed. I would not expect an early conclusion.

May we take it that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government would give support to the proposal which has been made that the part of the sea bed beyond national jurisdiction should be safeguarded for peaceful purposes?

The arms control military aspects of the sea bed are, of course, under discussion now in the 18-nation Disarmament Committee, which is rather separate from the point raised by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Mr. Dodds-Parker). Certainly we accept and support the principle, and we are doing what we can there to safeguard it, but, as in so many arms control and disarmament issues, the whole crunch is between the principle and the detailed application, and it is the detailed application which we are now studying in Geneva.

What reply has the Foreign Office sent to the proposals that it received on sea bed armaments from Senator Claiborne Pell, of Rhode Island?

I could not say exactly what reply was sent, but my hon. Friend will understand that we cannot enter into negotiations bilaterally with citizens of other countries, no matter how distinguished they are, when at the same time there is a United Nations committee studying the problem. Our observations are made within the context of the United Nations committee where we try to reach agreement first on the principles and later, we hope, on the details of what is a complicated and involved problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he has made in his efforts to bring the French Government back into regular attendance at meetings of the Western European Union.

As we have made clear on a number of occasions, we regret that France has not been participating in the work of Western European Union. We continue to hope that French participation will be resumed since we believe France has a valuable part to play.

In view of very recent events in France, will the Government invite the new French Head of State to resume France's righful and necessary part in Western European Union? Will the right hon. Gentleman do so as soon as practicable?

I am not sure that we need to issue any special invitation, because France has the right—and we have regretted that she has not exercised it—to be present at all meetings of Western European Union. As for recent events, they are still a little too recent for me to comment on them.

While it would be rash to forecast the course of French politics, may we be sure that Her Majesty's Government now feel encouraged to persist in the robust attitude that they have taken towards the powers of W.E.U. and towards our membership of E.E.C.?

I see no reason why we should not continue the policies that we have consistently followed both as regards our application to join the Community and to have discussions and promote European collaboration outside the Community through Western European Union.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a further statement on the position in Anguilla.

I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend told the House in the debate on 23rd April.—[Vol. 782, c. 487–98.]

Is that not a very disturbing admission? Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that the other day the Minister said nothing, and that if he cannot add to that he is merely compounding his embarrassment? Surely we ought to be told whether there is shortly to be some form of elections in Anguilla so that the people's will will be made known. Can we also have a clear answer as to whether there is to be a White Paper from the British Government on the arms which it is claimed to have been discovered and on the men who are said to be subverting the island?

I can only assume that the hon. Member was not present at the debate the other day. My right hon. Friend promised that he would examine how and in what form he would present additional information to the House on the subjects which were raised during that debate. He is in the process of doing so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this is not a satisfactory answer? Will he recall that last Wednesday the Secretary of State spoke for the first time not merely of intimidation and arson but of murder as a reason for the military intervention? Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that we pressed from this side of the House for the publication of a White Paper? Will he not give an assurance now that this White Paper will be presented at the earliest possible date?

There are Questions on the Order Paper relating to arms which have been discovered and murder there, and the answers will be available later today.

asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government will now propose the transfer from Spandau, or release, of Rudolf Hess.

Her Majesty's Government are strongly of the opinion that Rudolf Hess should be released and will renew representations to this end at any time there seems a prospect of success. The Soviet Government, whose agreement is necessary, have hitherto rejected all such approaches.

Is it not preposterous that this international farce should continue because of the objections of the U.S.S.R., in which country both anti-Semitism and concentration camps are in full sway?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, and as has been explained many times in the House, this arrangement is part of the Four-Power Agreement, and is would not be right to terminate that agreement on a matter of this kind.

When was this matter last raised with the Soviet Government? After all these years, ought not this man to be released, for the sake of humanity? At the same time, will the Government turn their attention to the question of Mr. Gerald Brooke, take up both matters with the Soviet Union, and let us know the answer?

The Foreign Secretary has that last matter very much in play, and he reported recently to the House. The last approach about Rudolf Hess was made early last year, and we have been considering also whether it is possible to have some less harsh form of imprisonment. We have the matter constantly in play, but so far the Soviet Union has not been willing to agree to the release of Hess, as we should wish, for all the reasons which, I thought, were admirably set out in The Times editorial last Saturday.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are Members on this side who feel that the time has come for new representations to be made to the Soviet Union? The responsibility which we bear for the inhuman incarceration of this man, in poor health both mentally and physically after all these years, is a heavy burden on the feelings of some of us.

If it will ease my hon. Friend's mind, I can assure him that many determined efforts have been made in recent years and all that can be done by Her Majesty's Government has been done. [Interruption.] With respect, there is absolutely no point in applying every week and receiving just a formal reply. We want to succeed, and that is why we are trying to time the approach at a satisfactory point.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the extent of British Government financial support for the Association of African Universities inter-African scholarships scheme.

We have offered up to £12,000 towards the cost of the scheme for the year beginning on 1st July next.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that a scheme of this kind is at least as relevant socially and educationally as further education opportunities in other continents, and will he say whether we shall be able to increase support in the future?

We shall consider that. We have given no undertaking to provide financial assistance on a continuing basis, but I agree that this is a promising scheme, although my hon. Friend should realise that it is in the main, and is understood and intended to be, an American-aided scheme.

How does the right hon. Gentleman know that the funds will be properly administered? What check is there?

That is why we have not committed ourselves to the future. We shall carefully examine the administration of the scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the number of hours per week that a consultant engaged on a nine-elevenths contract will need to work on the basis that he takes his full allowance of travel time.

The hours of work stipulated under the terms of service, after deduction of maximum travelling time allowed between home and main hospital, would be 26½ in a nine-session post and 32½ in a whole-time post.

As my right hon. Friend is bringing a fresh look to so many Health Service questions, will he look again at the question of whole-time as compared with part-time consultancy, and will he endeavour to bring it into his new Mark 2 Green Paper?

I shall look at it, though I doubt that it will go into the Mark 2 Green Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he has now received the communication dated 19th April from the hon. Member for West Ham, North, together with enclosures, concerning the case of the late Mr. Hugh McKinnon who died from frostbite as a result of being refused early admission into hospital; whether he will investigate this matter; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. I am looking into this case and will write to my hon. Friend when my investigations are complete.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but will he also look into the alleged fact that this man tried to get into several hospitals and several hospitals said there was not room? Will he see to it that, if there are urgent cases such as this, some hospital is instructed to take in people who are likely to die or who need serious treatment, as in this case?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing this distressing case to my attention. It was not thought at first that it was an acute case, and efforts were made to have Mr. McKinnon admitted into a geriatric hospital. It took several days, by the way, for the general practitioner to get into the man's home at all. I should not like to go further now. I wish to give my hon. Friend a full and accurate report on this distressing and disturbing case.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will initiate fresh negotiations through the Whitley Council on nurses' conditions of service and instruct the management side to offer new terms to meet the difficulties caused by the last award, which imposed undue financial payments for food and accommodation on the nursing profession;

(2) whether he will outline his plans for remedying the pay-as-you-eat problem in the nursing profession, in view of the assurances given to the nurses whom he received on 23rd April on the steps of his Ministry at the Elephant and Castle.

The Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council is already considering the problems which have arisen in the introduction of the new scheme; and I am sending the hon. Member a copy of a letter which has been sent to hospital authorities. The assurance given to the nurses received on 22nd April was that their views would be conveyed to the Council, and this has been done.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, but may I have an assurance that the instructions from him and his Department to the management side of the Whitley Council will enable the staff side to negotiate proper terms with the management side in order that the grievances of nurses over a wide field may be properly recognised? Is he aware that there is constant talk about the National Whitley Council as though the management side was entirely free to negotiate without instructions from his Department? The position ought to be made perfectly clear.

I am grateful to the hon. Lady; she has made a fair point. My Department plays its full rôle here and takes its share of responsibility for the agreement which was reached. Nevertheless, it remains true that the agreement was reached and gave increases of between nine and 14 per cent. to nurses, one of the biggest increases they have ever had. The only criticism so far has been on the question of meals, and, as the hon. Lady knows, I am now looking into that. The Council is to meet on 13th May. I assure her that I have gone into the matter very thoroughly, and I shall brief my representatives there to make sure that we reach a satisfactory solution.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that, as an obviously bad agreement has been reached, that is all the more reason why it should be rectified? Nurses are not trade union-minded or militant, but that does not detract from the justice of their claims.

I am not at all convinced that a bad agreement in general was reached on this occasion. No one has criticised most of the agreement; only one part has been criticized, namely, the question of meals. Therefore, I do not assume that the job done by the negotiators on behalf of the nurses was a bad one.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that the position of student nurses in particular is difficult, not least because a clear decision is required on whether they are employees and should be paid the rate for the job or they are students, in which case they should have time to study within their 42-hour working week? Further, will he accept that he will not get the whole pay structure for nurses right until pay at the top goes up? At present, part of the trouble is that the concertina has been squeezed close and needs to be spread out.

Those are all important points. Student nurses are paid not a salary but a training allowance. That training allowance was increased by from 9 to 14 per cent., and the revised training allowance for students under 25 ranges from £395 to £480, according to the year of training. All this seems to be worth considering carefully, but I hope that we shall not assume in the House that the whole agreement was unsound. The whole agreement represented a great march forward for nurses as a whole.

Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that the recent bitterness caused by the pay award and the requirement that nurses must pay for their meals is only the tip of the serious iceberg which is endangering a vital profession? Is he prepared to consider a special investigation into all aspects of this vital profession?

No, Sir; I do not consider that the case is made for any special investigation. I think that what the hon. Lady the Member for Tyne-mouth (Dame Irene Ward) says is correct, that the three parties must look carefully again at the agreement, as they are now doing, before the meeting on 13th May next, to see whether it is satisfactory. I do not go further than that.

Does the right hon. Gentlemen accept that whatever the merits of the agreement may have been the effects were very bad, and that some of the instructions for implementation which have been sent out to the employing authorities have been far from clear, in that some have accepted a latitude in imposing the agreement, and others have already done it?

I do not agree that the reception of the agreement as a whole was very bad. The only point in it that caused dissatisfaction was the so-called pay-as-you-eat scheme, which I think was aggravated by the fact that the nurses had their increase in March and had to pay for their meals out of that, which was a very bad beginning for the scheme. I agree that there were great variations in the regions where considerable latitude is allowed in fixing these things, and since then I have written to them giving them precise instructions, which they did not have in the first place.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether, in view of the concern of nurses in the National Health Service he will take immediate steps to increase the salary and training allowance payments as laid down in the National Board for Prices and Incomes Report Number 60, Command Paper Number 3585, and accepted by Her Majesty's Government.

Salaries and training allowances were increased as recently as 1st January, 1969, and the National Board for Prices and Incomes recommended that the present rates should last until the end of March next year. Any claim for an earlier increase would need to be considered by the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council in the light of incomes policy.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that many hon. Members on both sides of the House accept the soundness of the principle implied in the pay-as-you-eat scheme? But will he give an assurance that if he receives specific examples of nurses, particularly student nurses, being worse off after paying for their meals he will take immediate action with the hospital boards responsible to bring their meal prices down, so that the nurses get the real increase which was intended for them?

Yes, Sir. The instructions sent last week to the regional hospital boards should achieve what my hon. Friend wants. If they do not in all cases, we shall consider further action at the meeting on 13th May.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind two recent precedents, in view of the responsibility of his Department on nurses' pay? First, will he see that increases are now retroactive to the date of the last increase, as in the case of Lord Robens? Second, will he bear in mind that a 56¼ per cent. increase is considered appropriate for the chairman of a nationalised board, who does not pay for his daily meals while at work? Why should not these principles apply to the nurses?

I shall certainly bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman says. These are points that I shall certainly discuss with objectivity and fairness with our representative at the Whitley Council.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we do not share his sense of satisfaction with the way in which the pay agreement was handled, and that there is widespread agreement with those nurses who wrote to The Times to say that the way in which the settlement had been handled could well endanger recruiting for the nursing profession for a number of years ahead?

I naturally read the letter to The Times with care. I do not think that I expressed complacency about the way in which the matter was handled. I said that the agreement as a whole had not been criticised by the nursing profession, but that only one aspect had been criticised there. I agree that it had been unsatisfactorily handled, and further steps are being taken to put it right.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the main trouble seems to have arisen from the fact that the agreement has had unfortunate results for student nurses who come from other parts of the country and have to live in? This has given rise to some dissatisfaction. It has been an error of omission in consultation rather than an omission in intention from the agreement.

Of course, it is true that there was no intended omission from the agreement. Nobody has said that the Whitley Council intended student nurses to be treated harshly. But they may well have a hard deal. This partly arises from the considerable variation between the price of meals in different hospitals in different regions. This is perhaps a problem of the relationship between myself and the chairmen of the regional hospital boards.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) if he will seek powers to set up a Scottish anglers' trust, to encompass brown trout, sea-trout, and salmon;

(2) if he will now take steps to set up area boards for salmon and trout fishing.

These are among the main recommendations made in the Report of the Hunter Committee, and I should prefer not to comment on individual recommendations until I have completed my consideration of the Report as a whole.

Granted the very real complexities that face my right hon. Friend, will he explain to the tens of thousands of Scottish anglers who are curious to know, why it has taken 3½ years to get a reaction to the Report? Why has the Scottish Office taken so long? There are probably good reasons, and the matter should be explained.

In order to give rights to tens of thousands, one has to remove rights from millions. One does not do that readily and quickly. One must look into all the problems involved.

But as the Hunter Committee's Report has been in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman for over three years, will he now separate the difficult long-term decision concerning coastal netting and at least urgently get ahead with announcements concerning that part of the Report which could be helpful to the Scottish tourist industry?

No, Sir. I would rather deal with the Report as a unit than take two or three recommendations piecemeal out of a great many.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make available the correspondence exchanged between him and the Chairman of the Social Service Research Council on the shortage of places for postgraduate students in planning and management; if he will set out in the OFFICIAL REPORT the names of those bodies who have made representations to him on this subject; and if he will make a statement.

The number of grants for postgraduate students in planning and management is one of a number of questions covered in recent correspondence with the Chairman of the Social Science Research Council about the transfer of responsibility for postgraduate awards from local to central government. I see no reason to publish it. The results of a survey by the Council indicate that a larger number of grants for students in management were made by local education authorities in each of the years 1967–68 and 1968–69 than the number shown in returns made by authorities in 1967–68. Representations have been received from the National Economic Development Office, Town Planning Institute and a number of individuals, in addition to the Social Science Research Council. I am reconsidering the number of awards for the social sciences and hope to reach a decision soon.

This is a most serious matter. In view of the natural relationship between Government and industrial performance and management training, would my hon. Friend indicate what steps she is prepared to take to stimulate matters so that this situation does not happen again?

I have no control over the fact that the estimates of local authorities differed from those of universities. These are not matters for my Department directly, but because of the discrepancy my Department is now considering what help can be given as quickly as possible to make more bursaries available.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will state the number and sex of students admitted to each of the Scottish universities during each of the last five years and the number and sex of careers advisory officers appointed and now working in those universities.

For information about student numbers, I would refer my hon. and learned Friend to the reply I gave him on 24th April. Universities are responsible for their own staff appointments and the information requested in the second part of the Question is not collected centrally.—[Vol. 782, c. 105–6.]

Is the career guidance sufficient, having regard to the terms and recommendations of the Heyworth Report and the increase in the number of students at Aberdeen University?

I can only suggest that my hon. and learned Friend approaches Aberdeen University directly, since it is responsible and not me.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the working of the Heyworth Committee 1964 Report recommendations indicating how far each of them has been implemented and also indicating how many careers advisory officers were in consequence appointed in Scottish universities; and whether that number accords with the ratio recommended by that Report.

This report was prepared by Nuffield College, Oxford, and published by the University Grants Committee. Its implementation is in the hands of the universities. I understand that they have given it a great deal of attention, but the detailed information sought is not available.

Will my hon. Friend consider taking steps to increase the number of careers advisers in Aberdeen University, having regard to the phenomenal success of that university, and the numbers of students there?

I am sure that Aberdeen University will take close note of what my hon. and learned Friend has just said.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prosecutions to date have been brought under the Abortion Act, 1967.

The only offence under the Abortion Act, 1967, is that created in Section 2(3), relating to contraventions of the requirements of the abortion regulations. There were no prosecutions for this offence during the period 27th April, 1968, when the Act came into force, to 31st December, 1968, the latest date for which statistics are available.

In view of the figures that have recently been made known about the number of operations which have taken place within and without the National Health Service, does not that reply strike the hon. Gentleman as surprising?

It would strike me as even more surprising if there were actual examples which were brought to the notice of the prosecuting authorities. If the right hon. Gentleman has any knowledge here, perhaps he would let me know.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will obtain from the Chief Constable a report on the strength of the police force in Aberystwyth during the second week in April, 1969, as compared with the similar period in 1968;

(2) what is the cost to public funds of the security arrangements connected with the Prince of Wales's stay at Aberystwyth; and if he will obtain from the Chief Constable a report as to how many officers were on duty there during the week ended 25th April and what was their weekly pay.

There were 19 police officers on duty in Aberystwyth in the week ended 19th April, 1969, compared with 22 in the corresponding week last year. The number on duty during the week of Prince Charles arrival was 121 whose total pay came to £2,650 5s. 10d. This was a temporary measure and the number in succeeding weeks will be substantially reduced.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that it would have saved public funds if the Prince of Wales had been taught Welsh either by tape-recorder or over the telephone or if a tutor had been sent to Buckingham Palace?

It was decided that this should be done practically in Wales and that in any case it would be an excellent thing for the future Monarch to have lived in Wales. In view of that and of the possibility that something foolish might happen—both my hon. Friend and I know Cardiff General Station—my answer shows that the chief constable is aware of his duties.

Is it not time that this sort of Question ceased to be asked? Should not this particular undergraduate have a chance to get on with his studies like the rest without all this kind of publicity-seeking intervention from outside?