asked the Minister of Overseas Development what aid is proposed for schools and roads in the British Virgin Islands.

It is expected that about half of the British Virgin Islands 1969–70 development aid allocation of £225,000 will be spent on roads and about £90,000 on social services, principally schools.

I am grateful for that reply. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman realises that it is the primary schools which are so overcrowded and in respect of which a greater effort is needed than has been made hitherto. Can he say whether there will be a C. D. and W. grant in respect of the flood damage done to the roads in Virgin Gorda?

I recognise the hon Gentleman's point about primary schools. The present primary schools are insufficiently housed. The figures which I gave take into account the need for dealing with the damage to the roads.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will make a statement about aid for Anguilla.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development how much development aid he has now decided will be granted to Anguilla in the financial year 1969–70; and on what projects it will be spent.

A development programme estimated to cost about £50,000 in the current financial year has been drawn up in consultation between Her Majesty's Commissioner, the British Development Division in the Caribbean, and the Royal Engineers. The latter have recently submitted a detailed report on projects with which they will be able to assist. The main priorities are the erection of a new school and the improvement of roads. Work on both has already begun.

Will the aid go direct to Anguilla and not via St. Kitts? If so, for how long will this system of direct aid go to Anguilla, cutting out St. Kitts, last?

The aid will be dispersed through the arrangements which I have mentioned; in other words, it will be directed to Anguilla. I cannot say for how long this will last. It will depend on constitutional developments in the area.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether he proposes to assist the construction of a deep-water harbour in Montserrat.

I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to his similar Question on 5th May.

My Ministry has already given a good deal of assistance with feasibility studies. Our Development Division in the Caribbean is ready to discuss the matter further with the Government of Montserrat, including in particular the problems of financing the project.—[Vol. 783, c. 2.]

Can the hon. Gentleman explain why there has been all this delay? Ten months ago the British Development Commission produced a report on the project and said that it would be economically viable and urgently necessary as the landing, storage and delivery charges in Montserrat are twice as high as they are in Barbados.

I recognise that action in this matter since the production of the report has not been as swift as one might have wished. But there has been a gap in personnel there. In particular, there has not been a Substantive Financial Secretary. An appointment has now been made, so one can hope for quicker progress.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development why financial sanctions, such as the withholding of pensions, lump sums compensation and other retiring benefits, have been imposed by Her Majesty's Government on British members of the former Eastern Nigeria public service who have returned to Biafra to take up temporary humanitarian assignments with the relief agencies at the agencies request.

We have not withheld any payments due to any British member of the former Eastern Nigeria public service who has retired from that service or is at present being treated as if he had retired from it.

But were not such retirement benefits unconditionally guaranteed by Her Majesty's Government under a special agreement with the former Eastern Nigerian Government?

There were guarantees, but retirement benefits are due only on retirement. As my Answer made clear, no one who has retired is not receiving what is due to him.

It is perfectly in order, is it not, for British subjects, whether former public servants or not, to do relief work in Biafra?

Indeed.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will make a statement on the continuation of the compassionate farm purchase scheme for British subjects in Kenya.

The scheme remains in being up to March, 1970. I am not at present in a position to make any statement about its continuance thereafter.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the previous Conservative Government allocated over £1 million to this scheme? What sum is allocated today? The hon. Gentleman says that the scheme is still in existence. What are the criteria to qualify because most people in Kenya think that the scheme is dead?

In an earlier Answer to the hon. Gentleman, I indicated that the scheme has now very largely fulfilled its original purpose and that discussions are going on about what the position shall be after March, 1970. We must await the outcome of those discussions.

Do not the Government think that we have a moral responsibility to compensate British citizens of Asian origin whose businesses in Kenya have been appropriated?

That is clearly another question.

Does the hon. Gentleman have any information through the British High Commission about how many cases of compassionate farm purchase are still outstanding?

Of the original 18, six accepted the offers made to them, and over the last two years no new cases have come forward.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will make a statement on aid to Malta.

Under the Financial Agreement of 1964, the arrangements for the payment of our aid to Malta during the last five years of the life of the Agreement, i.e. after 31st March, 1969, have to be discussed between the two Governments. Discussions have taken place but I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

If it is true that Her Majesty's Government have made a threat to withdraw financial aid from Malta, this is very prejudicial to Anglo-Maltese relations. Can the Minister explain exactly what has happened?

It is not true that we have made any threat of that kind. We have had discussions but, as I have said, I am not yet in a position to make a statement. I must regard the content of the discussions as confidential at this stage.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development (1) what is the policy of the Government in regard to the giving of grants in place of loans to India and to other territories facing difficulties in meeting interest and repayment obligations;

(2) what is now the general policy of the Government in regard to interest-free loans, and to the waiving of interest on loans previously made.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what is the policy of the Government with regard to offering long-term periods of repayment of loans to India and other developing countries comparable with the 50-year terms offered by the International Development Association.

The burden of indebtedness is one element that we take into account. In the case of India, for example, we provide interest-free loans with a maturity of 25 years and a seven-year grace period for all purposes, including debt relief. It is not our general policy to provide debt relief by waiving interest due on past lending, or otherwise varying the terms of previous loans, nor by giving grants or loans on softer terms than those now applicable to India—which are among the most generous terms given by any donor country.

In thanking the Minister for that Answer, may I ask whether he would agree that the real return which we get on this sort of aid is an increase in trade in the sale of capital equipment in due course and that, therefore, we should aim at being lenient in our terms in all respects?

We have given a lead in being lenient in our terms. We have done this because this is the kind of aid which is most useful to India. But it also has indirect benefits to this country of the kind mentioned by the hon. Member.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development how much development aid will be granted to St. Kitts for the financial year 1969–70; and how much of this will be spent in Nevis.

The Colonial Development and Welfare allocation for 1969–70 is £260,000, but it has been agreed, at the request of the St. Kitts-Nevis-Anguilla Government, that this, with the bulk of the similar allocation for 1968–69 which has been carried forward, should be reserved for application towards improvements to the airfield at Golden Rock. The Premier has asked me to provide additional aid to be devoted to Nevis. This is being discussed with him in London now, but I am not yet in a position to make a statement.

Will the right hon. Gentleman look sympathetically at the need for an extension of the airfield at St. Kitts to take international jet aircraft, as in Antigua, to develop the full tourist potential of the island? Will he also view sympathetically the needs of Nevis for roads and electricity services for the infrastructure for tourism, which is probably the best hope for that island?

All the aspects which the hon. Member has mentioned are being discussed with the Premier, who, as the hon. Member knows, is in London.

Can my right hon. Friend explain the position with regard to Anguilla? Does any aid for that island have to go through the St. Kitts Government? If so, is there any strong advice that my right hon. Friend can give to the St. Kitts Government about it?

As I explained in reply to an earlier Question, aid is being arranged directly to Anguilla. Perhaps I should have added that this is being done with the agreement of the St. Kitts Government.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether he will make a statement on the work so far of the Population Bureau of his Department.

I would refer the right hon. and learned Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Rowley Regis and Tipton (Mr. Archer) on 1st April.—[Vol. 781, c. 59.]

Will the hon. Gentleman make available the experience gained by this Population Bureau to his colleagues in the Government who have a more difficult problem than exists in most of the overseas territories with which his Department is concerned?

The Bureau has only recently been set up. One of its purposes is to disseminate information on the question of population control, and certainly my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government will have access to it.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development if he will commission a study to assess the effect on countries in receipt of publicly-financed overseas aid of the imposition of tariffs or further quotas on the United Kingdom imports of cotton textiles from those countries.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what study his Department is making of the recent Report of the Textile Council on imports into the United Kingdom with special reference to imports from developing countries; and if he will make a statement.

The recent Report by the Textile Council followed a study of the cotton and allied textiles industry as a whole, and as such it is being carefully studied by my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade. Matters of this kind, which may affect the interests of developing countries, are of course constantly scrutinised by my economic planning staff, and they are currently studing the Council's Report.

Surely the prospect of a 15 per cent. tariff on imported cotton goods must be of such significance that the hon. Gentleman has already been advised to some degree of the conquence that it will have on the economy of these countries. Why is he not prepared to share that view with the House?

The matter needs more study than has yet been given to it. The information and the opinion of the Government will be available at the proper time.

Would my hon. Friend agree that even the most cursory study would convince him and his colleagues that such a proposition would have a deleterious effect on the exports of developing countries, which rely heavily upon textiles for their foreign currency earnings? Will he make the strongest representations to his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade to this effect?

I assure my hon. Friend that before the Government take any final decisions about the adoption of any of the proposals in the Report, the effect on developing countries, particularly those which receive our aid, will be very carefully studied.

The House will be seized of the obvious contradiction between this country providing aid to certain other countries and, at the same time, denying them reasonable access to the markets of the developed world. While I am fully aware that there are many implications for our own textile industry, the matter is of such importance that I wonder whether the Minister can give the House any indication of when the results of the study will be made available to Parliament.

It is true that there are conflicting interests in these matters, which is why we need to make a careful study of them. I am not at present in a position to say when the results of the study will be forthcoming.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development how much aid he estimates will be allocated to India and Pakistan, respectively, in the financial year 1969–70; in what form and on what terms the aid will be given; and how much he estimates India and Pakistan, respectively, will repay during the same period in interest and amortisation on previous aid from this country.

The United Kingdom will pledge its aid to India and Pakistan for the year 1969–70 at the Consortium meetings to be held in Paris during the week commencing 18th May and I will make an announcement about this as soon as possible. We expect to pledge aid in both project and non-project form and its terms will be interest-free loans repayable over 25 years with a seven-year period of grace. I estimate that during 1969–70 India will pay to the United Kingdom £7·4 million and £13·2 million and Pakistan £1·5 million and £1·4 million, respectively, in interest and amortisation. The level of our gross aid disbursements to both countries is, of course, well above the level of repayments.

Whilst I am sure that we are all grateful to the Minister for giving us so much information, in view of India's continuing burden of repayment can the right hon. Gentleman estimate the proportion of gross aid, both British and multilateral, which will be available for new expenditure in India?

I cannot make that estimate without giving the figure for the coming year. In the past year, we have provided £7·5 million towards the multilateral debt relief scheme out of our total disbursements of £31 million.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether he will seek to establish an Overseas Development Fund into which repayments by developing countries of interest and capital can be paid.

No, Sir. It would be contrary to practice to hypothecate loan repayments and interest, which go direct to the Consolidated Fund as extra receipts. It might also be held to undermine Parliamentary responsibility for voting Supply.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that to present the aid programme in gross terms without allowing for interest and capital repayments is misleading and that the establishment of a fund of this kind would enable us to give a much better picture of the net form of our aid programme?

As to presentation, I agree that it is important to see the net result as well as the gross figure. In a recent White Paper, I told the House that in future the Financial Secretary's Memorandum on the Estimates would include repayments. This will also be a feature of the five-year survey on public expenditure which was proposed in the recent Green Paper. That also will show the net as well as the gross figures.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development whether he will seek to empower the Commonwealth Development Corporation to establish a revolving fund into which interest and capital repayments from their projects can be paid.

No, Sir. I do not see advantages to justify such a fundamental change, involving legislation, in the present arrangements.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that these C.D.C. schemes in recent years have been making a profit, and that, again, it is misleading to represent what we provide each year as an aid programme and it would be much more meaningful to establish it on this kind of basis which would enable the general public to see the real net cost?

I think the operations of the C.D.C. do promote development and should be seen as part of the aid picture. I agree in this respect, as well as in the broader scope of the previous Question, that this would give us the net position as well as the gross one. This year C.D.C. will receive £10 million in Government advances and will repay £6¼ million to the Government in respect of capital and interest payments on their outstanding advances.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development when he plans to resume negotiations with the Republic of South Yemen about future British aid to that country.

I have no plans to resume negotiations with the Republic of South Yemen.

But notwithstanding the unhappy circumstances in which we severed our connection with that part of the world, would my right hon. Friend not agree that there are very strong political reasons why we should seek to be on good terms with the Republic of South Yemen? In view of the fact that we exploited this territory for 150 years, should we not now take a somewhat more generous attitude?

As my hon. Friend will be aware, we have granted aid to the territory to the value of £12 million for the six months after independence, and, following that, we made a further offer of £1·8 million for a further period, which may seem to be small in relation to the whole of our commitments but which, seen in relation to a territory of little more than 1 million inhabitants, and the total aid programme, was not an ungenerous offer; but it was turned down by the South Yemen Government.

Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that British interests are scarcely advanced by giving aid to this particular territory when there are so many competing claims from Commonwealth countries of a very urgent nature?

We were prepared, as I have explained, to make a further offer of aid—a reduced offer—but it had to be seen in relation to our total aid programme and our commitments elsewhere in the world.

It is said that we exploited this area but was there a single year of our occupation in which we had a favourable balance of trade, and did not we continually pour money into the place every year?

I do not think we really advance consideration of these matters by trying to create a balance sheet of exploitation and advantage one way or the other. I try to look at this matter as one of promoting development most effectively, and that is what I have to take into account in deciding the priorities in the aid programme.

Before making any further offer, will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that no former employee of the British Crown who was left behind in that country is suffering injustice?

That question is one which would have to be considered if there were a resumption of aid. Clearly, we expect the Government there to assume responsibility for payment of pensions and other benefits which are due to ex-employees of the Government.

asked the Minister of Overseas Development what proposals he had made for giving aid to the Indian Government to increase her exports to this country of cotton goods.

None, Sir. Nor have I received any request from the Government of India for an allocation of aid for such purposes.

If the President of the Board of Trade does decide to impose tariffs or quotas, has my right hon. Friend any proposals in mind to compensate the Indian Government for any losses which they may suffer as far as the export of textiles is concerned, and has he any proposals to increase them?

I think that all that is premature. As my hon. Friend told the House in answer to an earlier Question, no Government decision has yet been made on the Textile Council's Report.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will initiate, through the National Health Service, an inquiry into the adverse effects of oral contraception.

It is the responsibility of the Committee on Safety of Drugs to monitor adverse reactions to all drugs, including oral contraceptives. This work is supplemented by a number of research projects into the long term effects of oral contraception.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree, though, that statements which are continually being made, presumably by people in authority, on the causal connection between, for instance, thrombosis and the pill and cancer and the pill, are causing a great deal of concern among many women, and would not an inquiry of the nature suggested here, with publication of the results, do a great deal both to allay the fears and to add some knowledge on the subject?

We have to consider carefully whether the announcement of yet another inquiry might stimulate doubts. No, the Medical Research Council, the Family Planning Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners are all conducting research into this subject, and will announce the results as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what programme of health education on the use of oral contraception is being followed by the Health Education Council.

My hon. Friend will be glad to hear that as a first step the Council is setting up an Advisory Panel on Sex Education, whose priority task will be to consider the problem of educating the public in the use of all kinds of contraceptives. It will also be asked to advise on the extension of training and education of professional and lay workers in this field of health education.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this news will be received with pleasure by large numbers of people, but would he not agree that unless local authorities face their responsibilities in this matter—which is, of course, the other side of the problem of abortions—a lot of this work will be wasted, and would he not consider making it mandatory upon local authorities actually to set up family planning clinics?

I would not disguise from my hon. Friend that I myself would like to make it mandatory, but it would be unfair to make it mandatory unless money were available, and that is the reason why we are not doing so at present.

But are there not other alternatives which my right hon. Friend will note? Would he consider that, if local authorities are failing to provide these services, he might offer the assistance of regional hospital boards and the general practitioners to provide alternative sources of advice and appropriate appliances and drugs?

I am grateful for that suggestion. The hospital boards and the hospitals themselves have responsibility for the patients in hospital. As for the general practitioners, I should like to tell my hon. Friend that we have this year extended the grant to the Family Planning Association to assist in the training of general practitioners for what is a wholly desirable part of their duty.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received asking him not to publicise evidence linking the contraceptive pill with thrombosis or cervical cancer; and what is his latest estimate of the statistical risk of contracting either illness, and of death due to either illness, as a result of taking the pill regularly.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if, following the evidence given at a recent inquest at Dudley, he will require the Dunlop Committee on Safety of Drugs to examine the results of recent research in the United States of America, details of which have been sent to him, which suggest that there are six times more cases of womb cancer in women who take the pill than in those who do not.

No such representations have been made to me. The estimated annual risk of venous thrombo-embolism requiring hospital admission is about 5 per 100,000 for women not using oral contraceptives and about ten times higher for those using them. The estimated annual risk of death from pulmonary embolism or cerebral thrombosis in healthy women not using oral contraceptives is 0·2 per 100,000 in those aged 20–34 and 0·5 per 100,000 in those aged 35–44, and is also about 10 times higher in those using them. I am advised that a statistical correlation between the use of oral contraceptives and cervical cancer has not been established, but I am asking the Committee on Safety of Drugs to examine the published article referred to in recent Press reports.

I welcome the efforts of my right hon. Friend to establish the scientific facts, but will not he agree that certain irresponsible allegations have recently been made in coroner's courts which have caused unnecessary anxiety to many women and quite gratuitous offence to the pharmaceutical industry?

There is something in what my hon. Friend says. The committee on Safety of Drugs has carefully considered all the evidence and has decided that, despite the evidence of adverse reactions to oral contraceptives they should still be on sale. I absolutely trust the Committee on Safety of Drugs. If there had been the vaguest doubt, the Committee would not have said that.

Will my right hon. Friend seek early opportunities to offer assurance on this question not merely to the House but to the many women who have grave reservations about a drug which should be widely used? Will he, please, in presenting figures, compare not the age groups which do and do not use the drugs, but the expected frequency of thrombo-embolic phenomena in pregnant women, which is what this form of oral contraception protects women against? This figure, as I am sure he will agree, is much more striking.

I am grateful for the support of my hon. Friend, but it is important to present the figures as strictly objectively as possible, because one may be counter-productive if one does not, and I have presented them in an absolutely objective way.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the cost of National Health Service contributions.

If the hon. Member means the contributions to the National Health Service proposed in the White Paper, Cmnd. 3883, the details of the short-term benefits and the National Health Service contributions will be announced later.

Will the Minister say what effect the arrangements to be made for paying for the increased pension are likely to have on the health stamp? Will he also say whether, in view of the rising costs which have prompted the increase in health charges, he is considering raising the contribution made for the stamp, which now covers only about 10 per cent. of the total cost of the health bill?

These are both different questions from the one which I assumed from the wording in the original Question. The hon. Gentleman had better wait to say what he has to say until the debate on Thursday.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what effect the changes in pension benefit and contributions forecast in the Budget will have upon the proposals set out in the White Paper on National Superannuation and Social Insurance.

None, Sir.

Has the Minister considered the advantages of a system of graduated contributions and flat-rate benefits?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that during the time we took to prepare the new scheme we gave thought to whether there should be graduated contributions for flat-rate benefits, but the conclusion was that there should be both graduated contributions and graduated benefits. I am certain that that decision was right and fair to all concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what progress he has made in his discussions with representatives of the Life Offices Association and other bodies responsible for the administration of private occupational pension schemes in regard to contracting out; and if he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Marks) on 28th April.—[Vol. 782, c. 161–2.]

Does the Secretary of State approve the suggestion by the Life Offices Association that the contribution from general taxation to the fund should be increased as time goes by?

That is a different question. We have started the discussions, and our first consultative document was issued on 24th April. This set out the system of contracting-out proposed and indicated the range for the amount of the pension abatement, so we are now discussing the first step.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now reconsider the position of widows under 50 years of age so as to allow a pension right to be determined in accordance with the number of years a deceased husband has contributed under the National Insurance Scheme.

The hon. Member will see from paragraphs 79–81 of the White Paper (Cmnd. 3883) that the Government share the concern about the age 50 condition for widow's pension. It is therefore proposed that existing widows who were aged between 40 and 50 at widowhood will qualify for a scaled-down flat-rate pension under the new scheme arrangements.

While thanking the Minister for that Answer, may I ask whether he realises that a big problem is involved in this matter since a number of hubands firmly believe that, by paying a contribution to National Insurance, they are providing a pension for their widows? Could he not give such people hope that in the near future they will helped over their problem in regard to pensions?

This is precisely what the White Paper does. It gives not only hope but confidence to the widow that she will benefit in widowhood as well as in retirement from contributions paid by her husband. This is one of the great achievements of the new scheme, which will soon be on the Statute Book.

Could the Minister say whether when the scheme is introduced it could be retrospective, and if so, how far back it could go in order to take in widows even as far back as 10 years and up to the present time?

It will not be possible to introduce a retrospective scheme but, as I said, it will apply to existing widows aged between 40 and 50 at widowhood so that they will get some benefit.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he expects to be able to permit vaccination against rubella under the National Health Service following the clinical trials which commenced in October, 1967.

It is too early to say.

While not wishing to press my hon. Friend to take risks which might have side effects, may I ask him to apprecite that this could be the biggest breakthrough in deafness this century and that it could save the Ministry many millions of £s over the years? Will he see that no undue delay occurs?

I assure my hon. Friend that there is no undue delay in this matter. Clinical trials into this vaccine are still proceeding. The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which advises my right hon. Friend, will be reviewing the subject tomorrow, although I do not think it likely that at this stage it will be able to make a recommendation. I assure my hon. Friend that the importance of this matter is fully understood by my Department.

What is rubella?

It is a form of German measles.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now announce the names of the persons he proposes to appoint to serve on the Medicines Commission; when the first meeting will be held; and if he will make a statement.

A further statement must await the completion of consultations to which I referred in my reply on 22nd April to my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Whitaker).—[Vol. 782, c. 69–70.]

Will my right hon. Friend pursue this matter with all urgency, remembering that a number of questions must be answered concerning the appointment of people to serve on the Medicines Commission? In the discussions that he is having, will he ensure that the teeth, so to speak, which the Sainsbury Report offered in this matter are re-established in view of the fact that they were taken out by the Medicines Act?

I have noted my hon. Friend's suggestion. I would remind him, when he refers to delay and the need for urgency, that about 40 bodies must be consulted.

Will the right hon. Gentleman push ahead as fast as he can with this matter? Does he realise how undesirable it is for there to be a long delay between an Act coming into force and it being put into operation through the Medicines Commission?

I accept the pressure from both sides of the House on this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now make a statement on the financing of the proposed retirement pension increase proposed in the Budget and the extent to which other social service benefits are also affected.

I have nothing to add yet to what my right hon. Friend said in his Budget Statement and in winding up the Budget debate.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the prolonged ambiguity by the Government over this substantial item of public expenditure is contributing to the misery of his colleagues who are renegotiating with the bailiffs of the International Monetary Fund?

I have rarely heard such absolute nonsense. The hon. Gentleman really must restrain himself. If he feels as strongly as he says, presumably he will try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye on Thursday, as I hope to do.

Are supplementary benefits to be increased in the autumn? Does the hon. Gentleman recollect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that substantial extra provision would be required to restore the National Insurance Fund to solvency? How much extra provision will be required?

The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that supplementary benefits will be increased. I cannot at this stage give the figure, but it will be given later. I cannot answer the second part, although the hon. Gentleman may also try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye on Thursday and attempt to talk on this subject.

Will the right hon. Gentleman—

No.

Order. Nobody, not even a Minister, can pre-empt for a Member the catching of Mr. Speaker's eye. Lord Balniel.

Can the hon. Gentleman say if the Secretary of State personally will try to catch Mr. Speaker's eye on Thursday?

I shall be seeking to catch Mr. Speaker's eye on Thursday.

On a point of order. As the Minister inadvertently answered my Question No. 56, Mr. Speaker, may I be allowed to put a supplementary question?

A good try, but I think not.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what instructions are given to officers of his Department when the need to verify the accuracy of claims for supplementary benefits by widows or other women living alone arises.

Officers are expected to use tact and discretion in making any inquiries that may become necessary if there are grounds for thinking that a woman's circumstances may have changed, or that a false statement may have been made in connection with her claim.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great concern about the invasion of privacy and the spying that is going on in certain cases when cohabitation is being investigated by some of his officers? Will he again issue instructions to all the officers of his Department to see that this job is done with great tact and decency?

I really do not believe that it is necessary for me to do that. Indeed, to do so would imply a lack of confidence in my investigators, which I do not feel. There is really no reasonable doubt now that in this area there is a degree of abuse of supplementary benefits which must be looked into sensibly. I do not think that my investigators are doing a bad job.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is aware that pensioners claiming social security payment of a few shillings a week incur the loss of local council rent and rate rebates; and whether he will instruct his officials to draw this fact to the attention of those claiming such payments.

All officers concerned are instructed that where any rent or rate rebate is more advantageous than the supplementary benefit entitlement, they should advise tenants to apply for the appropriate rebate and forgo supplementary benefit.

Is my hon. Friend not aware of the fact that, apparently, there are some people who do not know about this, and would he ensure that it is made more public, because considerable hardship is inflicted on those who are placed in a serious position because of this anomaly?

I am sorry to hear that this is not better known. Supplementary benefit officers are naturally aware of this themselves and they take steps to see that claimants for supplementary benefit have explained to them the consequences on both rent and rate rebates. But I will look again to see about the form of publicity.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what consultations he has had with the appropriate medical authorities about the need for overseas doctors who seek employment in this country to have a higher standard of spoken English; and what action is to be taken to achieve this objective.

I have consulted representatives of the profession and other interested bodies with a view to strengthening and extending the present voluntary attachment scheme which provides overseas doctors with an introduction to clinical practice in this country. I have also asked hospital authorities to consider whether their arrangements for selecting doctors for employment are adequate.

But does not the Secretary of State feel that it is absolutely essential that overseas doctors should undergo some compulsory form of assessment of their English before they take posts in this country?

I have considered this very carefully, and I would hope that as a result of what I have been saying we can move towards a compulsory system, but there would be very widespread exemptions. Many of the people who come from overseas will have no requirement for it, for they will have learned here and will have done their studies here, and I do not want to impose a compulsory scheme on those who could well be exempted.

In considering this shortage of doctors should we not be profoundly grateful to these people who come to help us out, and should we not try to cut out all this criticism?

Of course we should be grateful to overseas doctors, but also we should consider making sure that there is not a doctor practising who is not capable of communicating successfully with both nurse and patient. We are grateful to them, and we want to help them to do their job.

But does not the Secretary of State think that the real responsibility rests on the employing authority to see that doctors do have enough command of English, and will he take some steps to tackle the other side of the problem, which is to prevent English doctors leaving this country in such large numbers?

There is no question of prevention in the sense of legal embargoes on people to prevent them from leaving. The way to prevent them is to give them a decent career structure, and that is what we are trying to do, and as I said in the second part of my previous answer, the hospital authorities have responsibility, but I also consider that the attachment scheme, if it is strengthened and extended, will be a useful adjunct to the hospitals' responsibilities.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what study he has given to information available to him from international sources about the access of the families of men who withdraw their labour in an industrial dispute to welfare benefits financed from public funds in Holland, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Japan and the United States of America; and if he will take step to bring British practice into conformity with that prevailing overseas.

The availability of benefits to strikers and their dependants in other countries, and in some cases within those countries, varies greatly, and any detailed study of the relevant provisions would be unprofitable. It is clear that no common pattern has been established from which conclusions could be drawn.

Is not it a fact that in the vast majority of the countries which are our overseas competitors no taxpayer subsidy is paid to strikers and that, so long as we continue to provide such a subsidy, we are imposing additional burdens in international competition on our taxpayers?

The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. His deductions on whether other countries' strikers are in a better position do not tally with mine. If one looks at Germany, Sweden and parts of the United States, there is no doubt that the financial support for a striker is more substantial than in this country. If one looks at the Low Countries, France and certain parts of the United States the provision is less. A general conclusion such as that reached by the hon. Gentleman is quite incorrect.

Is my hon. Friend aware, whether or not the point made by the hon. Gentleman is correct, that the incidence of strikes in most of the countries mentioned in the Question is much higher than in this country?

This is a question for my right hon. Friend the First Secretary.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will give an estimate of the cost of implementing the proposals of the Royal College of Nursing for an increase in pay of student and pupil nurses.

The proposal was for an increase of £1 a week, and I gave the estimated cost of this in my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Ted Fletcher) on 30th April.—[Vol. 782, c. 255.]

Will the Secretary of State consider the drop-out rate of nurses in training, and will he realise that if even 10,000 nurses could be saved out of the 40 per cent. who now fail to complete their training, this would represent only about £450 a nurse? This might save a good deal of money and bring a little more justice into dealing with the hardly-used body of student nurses.

I am very sympathetic with the problem of student nurses, and there is a lot to be said for the view that we have to consider their whole status. After all, they are sometimes treated as juniors when they are above the age of majority under the new Act. Nevertheless, this is a wage agreement which has just been agreed with the Whitley Council and which has only just come into force. I am prepared to give the Whitley Council a chance to consider it again. There is an area which I want to look at, and that is the money, not strictly the wage, paid to student nurses.

Will my right hon. Friend say, if not now then in writing, what was the drop-out when the freeze of nurses' pay was implemented by the party opposite, compared with the drop-out referred to by the hon. Gentleman?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. If he will put that down as a Question, I shall have much pleasure in answering it.

Is not the Whitley Council meeting today to discuss these matters, and will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what instructions have been given by him to the management side of the Whitley Council, so that we may know what the Minister wishes the management side of the Whitley Council to agree with the staff side?

The meeting takes place not today but tomorrow. The answer to the second part of the hon. Lady's question is, "No".

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services (1) what representations he has received in the last month concerning the operation of the pay-as-you-eat scheme for hospital nurses; and what steps have been taken to remedy the grievances of nurses on this matter;

(2) what steps he has taken to ensure that all National Health Service hospitals have a scale of meal charges which are within the capacity of all student and other nurses to pay.

The representations have been about the adequacy of the reduction in the former board and lodging charge to enable meals to be paid for as taken. Many of them have been based on misunderstandings, but the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council is considering certain problems which have arisen in the introduction of the new arrangements; and my Department has written to all hospital authorities asking them to ensure that meals are provided at the standard charges on which the arrangements are based.

Would my right hon. Friend say what he meant in his Answer by the phrase "based on misunderstandings"? Did he read the article in yesterday's Sunday Times which presented a disturbing picture of student nurses having to work 20 to 24 hours in a day to make their wage into a living wage, and when does he expect to produce a report on this matter?

I did not read the article in the Sunday Times. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for calling it to my attention. The representations were not about the package as a whole, but about the arrangements for meals. The rest of the package was broadly accepted.

Can the Minister explain how the arrangements about meals have gone so badly wrong? Surely the management side of the Whitley Council is responsible to him and takes its instructions from his Department?

I am prepared straight away to say that of course my Department has a large degree of responsibility in these matters, as does the Prices and Incomes Board, too, since this was a discussion of proposals from the Board. I am not yet convinced that the whole proposal has gone wrong. On the contrary, I believe that it is what the nurses wanted; they had asked for it for years. The difficulty is whether it is valid and satisfactory for all student nurses in all hospitals. One of our difficulties is the extraordinary variations in hospital meals served in different hospitals. This is what we have tried to regularise by the letter which has been sent out to hospital boards.

Surely it is in the public interest to correct the income structure of this country so that it should be more generous to people such as nurses, who do such a valuable job and never go on strike?

I agree with my hon Friend. That is why I was pleased that the last pay package was a generous one which greatly improved their standing and their pay.

Unless something is done about this matter, in many cases nurses who work on night shifts will go short of food. This will be a big setback to recruitment. Will the Minister ask the Whitley Council to reconsider the matter before more damage is done?

I again will explain that the Whitley Council is meeting tomorrow. It has a number of proposals to consider. Therefore, before we discuss the matter further, we ought to wait and see what it concludes.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is now the waiting list for admission to Wesham Park Hospital; what was the waiting list on 31st December, 1964; and what plans he has for increasing the accommodation for geriatric patients in the Blackpool and Fylde area.

Sixty-Six at 31st March, 1969; 33 at 31st December, 1964. Both these figures cover Wesham Park and Rossall Hospitals, which are one administrative unit. A new ward of 166 beds was opened at Wesham Park on 31st March this year. The Regional Hospital Board's building programme includes provision for a 30-bed geriatric assessment unit at Victoria Hospital, Blackpool, and the Board hopes later to provide a unit of 80 to 100 beds for acute geriatric patients at the same hospital.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a very high proportion of old people in this area and that there is an impression that it is more difficult for an old person to get into hospital when suffering from the same illness compared with a young person? Will he therefore continue to give high priority to increasing the provision for old people in this area?

I appreciate that the need for accommodation in this area is very acute. I can only add that when the 30-bed unit at the Victoria Hospital is in operation, we will have got the provision of geriatric beds for the area very near to the Department's norm of 10 beds per 1,000 people over 65.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will now take action to increase the facilities within the National Health Service for operations under the Abortion Act, 1967, in view of the deficiencies of private nursing homes.

The capacity of the private sector is not a relevant factor in deciding what should be provided through the National Health Service, except in so far as it may affect the demand for the services of the National Health Service.

Is the refusal of gynaecologists a factor? Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have sent him information about large numbers of women who have been refused help under the National Health Service in the London area and that I have another batch from the Midlands which I will be letting him have today? Will my right hon. Friend now face up to his responsibilities and see that National Health Service hospitals carry out their duties under the Act?

I am always grateful to my hon. Friend for the help and information she provides. I have explained to her more than once that I am unhappy to observe the discrepancy which exists between the services provided by the National Health Service in, for example, the Birmingham area as well as in the Newcastle area. We must look at the provisions of the Act carefully and also take account of the clinical freedom of consultants. These matters are not quite as simple as my hon. Friend suggests.

Since my hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) has already given notice of an amending proposal to the main enactment, would not it be wise for the right hon. Gentleman to withhold making any further comments on this intricate matter—[Interruption.]—until the House has an opportunity again to debate the progress or otherwise of the main Statute—

Nonsense.

—which should be before the Summer Recess?

No, Sir. I do not think that the House need await an hon. Gentleman's proposed amendment before discussing the existing state of the law. The law is the law and, personally, I do not think that it would be wise for there to be an early amendment of the Act. We must watch the operation of the Act for a considerably longer time before deciding whether or not it needs amending.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how much extra revenue he plans to allocate to mental hospitals in order to improve their standards.

I have asked each regional hospital board to reconsider the distribution of revenue funds within its total regional allocation, so as to improve its psychiatric and geriatric services, especially for long-stay patients, and to report to me. This exercise will take account of variations in present standards between regions.

While welcoming the right hon. Gentleman's Answer, may I ask him to realise that the redistribution will mean robbing one part of the Service to assist another? Even if he allocates the whole of the additional £3½ million from the increased charges for teeth and spectacles, is he not aware that additional sources of revenue are urgently needed if our mental hospitals are to have the priority that they require?

It is, of course, true that every Secretary of State would like for the National Health Service a larger slice of the available funds, but we must work within our existing budgets. I warn the hon. Gentleman that in the immediate future—that is, if he agrees with me that the hospitals for the subnormal represent a deprived area—we must plan a reallocation of priorities within the Service and not simply ask for more money which is not available.

While my right hon. Friend is examining the whole question of mental health and geriatrics, will he expedite the co-ordination of local, National Health Service and general practitioner services, since only by combining the operations of these three wings of the National Health Service will we solve this problem?

I agree with my hon. Friend in theory, but the more I go round the country the more depressed I become at the failure of the services of the National Health Service on the one side and the local community services on the other to work together. Many of these services are being paid for in different ways, without adequate integration. My hon. Friend is, therefore, really speaking of a properly integrated National Health Service.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what his views are about extra revenue for community services for mental health outside the mental hospitals?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has asked me about this. Quite frankly, the need for community-based services outside mental hospitals is at least as great as the need for investment inside. If we could get hostels for psychiatric patients outside in the community, we would be doing the real job, which is to reduce the number of people permanently resident in these long-term hospitals. I could not agree more.