asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will identify the particular service industries in which it is estimated 60,000 new jobs will be created in the six years 1965 to 1970.

Among the sectors which will contribute to the 60,000 additional jobs in expanding service industries are professional and scientific services, public administration and insurance and banking.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in the first paragraph of "A Plan for Expansion" he forecast that there would be 60,000 jobs by 1970? Where are they, and how many has he obtained so far?

So far, in the services I have listed plus miscellaneous services there has been an increase in new jobs of 57,000.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the effect of the selective employment tax on the achievement of the target of 60,000 new jobs in service industries by 1970, as projected in the White Paper, The Scottish Economy 1965–1970, Command Paper Number 2864.

The total number of new jobs in the service industries as a whole is likely to be close to the figure mentioned in the Paper on "The Scottish Economy".

The figures available indicate that losses of employment in certain sectors of service industry, though significant, have been largely compensated by new jobs in other sectors.

In spite of what the Secretary of State says, is he aware of the conclusion in the Gaskin Committee's Report that S.E.T. is accelerating the migration of workers from the North-East of Scotland? How does he reconcile this with his aim of increasing employment?

We have time and time again explained that our main concern is with the overall state of the economy. The implication of this is that we must improve the outlook for the manufacturing industries, thereby consequentially benefiting the service industries.

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what is the balance of profit to Scotland if S.E.T. and the regional employment premium are taken together?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what financial support he gives to bodies in Scotland which undertake ski-ing instruction; and if he will name the bodies.

Annual grants are made to the Scottish National Ski Council, and also to the Scottish Council of Physical Recreation towards the cost of the Scottish Centre of Outdoor Training at Glenmore Lodge, where ski instruction is included in some courses.

Local ski clubs are eligible for grant under the local capital grants scheme, though that scheme does not include grant for ski instruction.

Do the Government offer financial support only to bodies or individuals undertaking training in sporting activities on a non-profit-making basis? By offering support to outdoor commercial ventures such as the Ardmore Adventure Centre in north-west Sutherland, might not outdoor training in sporting activities be made much more widely available?

I see considerable difficulties about making Government assistance available to commercial ventures. I know the project my hon. Friend mentions. I will look at any aspects of it that he would like me to, but the general rule must apply.

Will the Under-Secretary seek to relieve Scottish ski schools from the selective employment tax, because they feel that this is an anomalous burden seeing that the hotels which benefit from their activities have now been relieved of it?

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would care to table that separate question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many cases of food poisoning were reported to him during May, June, July, August and September of last year and how these figures compare with the previous five years.

As the Answer involves a number of figures, I am circulating a table in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the report he should be able to give me? Can he assure me that something will be done to reduce the incidence of food poisoning in Scotland?

We make considerable efforts towards this end, though the primary responsibility is that of the local authorities. If there are any particular respects in which my hon. Friend thinks that we should be taking further action. I should be very glad to consider them.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will consult with chief constables with a view to legislation to provide against the growing practice of under-age drinking, by devising ways and means whereby licencees can vet those ineligible; and if he will make a statement.

If my hon. Friend can suggest a practicable and enforceable system of vetting, I am certainly prepared to discuss it with chief constables and others concerned.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that many licensees are unable to distinguish between those just under 18 and those just over 18, because the hair style of boys and the use of cosmetics by teenage girls makes them look much older? Will he consider having on an experimental basis an identity card system, under which the photograph of the person and date of birth could be obtained by the doubtfuls and supplied on demand to licensees, thus preventing licensees from supplying them with alcohol, on the one hand, and deterring under-age drinking, on the other?

I am aware of the difficulties of fashion as described by my hon. Friend. I am not sure that the system he advocates would be effective. In some ways it might be a positive inducement to evasion. If he is asking whether we are seriously concerned about the problem, I can assure him that we are.

asked the Scretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about the development of countryside parks in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend has been pleased to receive proposals under the Countryside (Scotland) Act 1967 for three substantial country park projects, involving seven local planning authorities, and I understand that other authorities have proposals under consideration.

Is my hon. Friend able to name the parks proposed?

Yes. There is a proposal for a park sponsored by Ayr County Council, Ayr Town Council and Kilmarnock Town Council acting jointly with the National Trust for Scotland at Culzean Estate. Renfrew County Council has announced a pilot scheme at Muirshiel in advance of a much wider country park project. Lanark County Council, Motherwell Town Council and Hamilton Town Council are discussing proposals for a large park in the Hamilton Low Parks area.

Does not the Minister agree that the Pentland Hills are an obvious area for treatment in this way under Section 48 of the Countryside (Scotland) Act?

It is entirely a matter for the local authorities to promote these schemes. I would not like to comment on any particular area in case I should embarrass anyone.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) how many full-time students of electronics there are in Scottish institutions taking graduate courses at the latest available date;

(2) what is the average annual output of graduates specialising in electronics from Scottish institutions over the last three years.

It is not possible to give separate figures for electronics alone, but in the academic year 1967/68 904 students at universities and central institutions in Scotland were taking first degree and diploma courses in electrical engineering, including electronics. The average annual output from these courses in the three years 1965/66–1967/68 was 197.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he able to tell me any firm in Scotland or in the United Kingdom which employs 2,000 graduates in the electronics industry? If this is even remotely possible, would not my hon. Friend agree that this would obviously restrict the spread of the electronics industry in the country?

I am not aware of any electronics firm in Scotland which employs anything like that number of graduates, and I would be surprised if there were such a firm south of the Border cither.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a list of the regulations he has made regarding standards of hygiene in cafeterias and restaurants.

The current regulations are the Food Hygiene (Scotland) Regulations 1959, as amended in 1959 and 1961.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that as an increasing number of Scottish people are eating out, the standards of hygiene in restaurants and cafés should be kept under constant surveillance?

The standards are kept under surveillance, as I said in answer to a previous Question. The primary responsibility is with the local authorities, and I am not aware that they are not carrying out their obligations in this respect.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the effect on the rate of local authority housebuilding in Scotland of the Scottish Development Department circular 15/69 dated 7th March, 1969.

There was nothing in this circular to affect the rate of new house-building. The guidance given was that housing revenue account deficits should be allowed to increase only to the extent that permitted rent increases did not enable them to be held level.

In view of the extra costs through S.E.T. and the high interest rates faced by local authorities, does not the Minister of State realise that there is a restraint in paragraph 12 of the circular? Will he give an assurance, in the light of what he said, that there is no restriction?

I can give an assurance that there is no restriction. The hon. Gentleman should read paragraph 12 again. Any authority that suggests that it should cut back on new house-building for reasons of financial restraint is misunderstanding the situation and taking an easy way out instead of facing up to the problem of rents and rates.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in the interests of public safety and fire prevention, he will introduce legislation to enable fire prevention and police officers to enter bingo halls with a view to supervision safety precautions; and if he will make a statement.

The Gaming Act 1968 empowers the police and officers of fire authorities to enter bingo halls licensed under that Act at any reasonable time. The relevant provisions will be brought into operation as soon as the preliminary licensing procedures have been completed.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this news will be warmly welcomed? Some proprietors of bingo halls are blocking passageways and vestibules with patrons, and in the event of fire there would be danger to members of the public.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his assurance.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many teachers in Scotland has so far failed to re-register with the General Teaching Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action the Government now intends to take to deal with the situation resulting from the failure of teachers to register or reregister with the General Teaching Council.

I have nothing to add to the reply given by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State on 21st May to the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. MacArthur) except that, according to the announcement of the General Teaching Council on 10th June, 45,270 teachers had by then registered for the year starting on 1st April.—[Vol. 784, c. 85–6.]

Does not this mean that many thousands of teachers have failed to re-register, and that the Secretary of State should therefore take urgent steps to reinstate those teachers who have been dismissed for failure to register?

It does not follow that these teachers are teachers who are presently teaching in schools. It is to find exactly what the position is that we have undertaken to make inquiries of the education authorities.

How does the Secretary of State justify the situation that teachers who failed to register last year were sacked and are being denied unemployment pay, whereas teachers who have committed the same technical offence this year are being treated totally differently?

The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that the law remains the same, and registration is the proper indication of the qualification of a teacher. That is the law, and that remains the law.

What information has the right hon. Gentleman so far received from local education authorities on the number of teachers actually in teaching posts who have not registered? Second, does he not agree that recent events have emphasised the need to simplify the re-registration procedure?

Yes, I may well agree with the hon. Gentleman's final comment. We do not know the actual numbers involved in the schools at the present time, and this is what we are seeking to find out. A statement on this has been made by my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State.

If teachers in Scotland persist in showing their hostility to the General Teaching Council, will my right hon. Friend take urgent steps to scrap the Council altogether and restore the previous position?

More than 45,000 teachers have shown by their registration that they want the Council. The minority is a very small one, and I hope that before long the minority will be completely negligible. The hon. Gentleman should face the fact that this House passed the Bill enacting this procedure and there was no vote against it. It was in accordance with the wishes of all sections of the teaching profession that we acceded to the request to legislate.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg leave to give notice that I will raise the matter again at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many health centres were completed in the years 1965–66, 1966–67, and 1967–68; how many are planned for 1968–69; what was the total expenditure involved; and what were the comparable figures in the four years prior to October, 1964.

In the three years to 1967–68, five health centres were completed. In 1968–69 three were completed. The total cost of those eight centres was £245,500. In 1969–70 it is hoped that six centres at present under construction will be completed and that work will begin on another thirteen. In the four years prior to October, 1964, one centre was completed at a cost of £20,000.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the entire Scottish population will be highly gratified by the remarkable progress in the building of these centres? Will he undertake to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT details of the location of the 60 centres which he said in the debate on 23rd May were under consideration for approval?

Yes, I am sure that creditable progress is now being made. I should be delighted to meet my hon. Friend's request and give details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Could the hon. Gentleman say how far the medical profession is co-operating in the work of health centres as health centres and are not using them just as consulting rooms? How does he compare the working of the older health centres with the new developments at Livingston?

Before any health centre is agreed and planned it has the support of the doctors who will operate in it. The health centres that I have seen in operation work on the basis that the general practitioners use the full range of facilities available. I expect this procedure to continue since it is absolutely basic to the whole idea of the health centre.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give figures of industrial output in Scotland in the construction industries for the years 1964 to 1968 and for the years 1960 to 1964; and how these figures compare with the output in these industries for the United Kingdom as a whole.

Between 1964 and 1968 output in the construction industry rose by 24 per cent. in volume as compared with 10½ per cent. in the United Kingdom; in the earlier period 1960–64 the comparable figures were 24 per cent. and 21 per cent., respectively.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving the figures. Could he express work done in Scotland in 1968 as a proportion of the United Kingdom total, and could he say how the proportion has changed since 1960?

In 1968 for the first time the output topped the £500 million level. It was £507 million. It was 11·2 per cent. of the total for Great Britain. This compares with 9·7 per cent. in 1964, and 9·4 per cent. in 1960. It is an indication of "full speed ahead" for the construtcion industry.

Could the right hon. Gentleman explain how the increased burden of £5 million additional S.E.T. imposed by the recent Budget will contribute to an increase in output in this important industry in Scotland?

The figures since 1966 demonstrate that S.E.T. has had no effect in slowing down progress in the construction industry in all the important tasks that it has to undertake in Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assistance his Department has been giving to the promotion of research in the Scottish universities in the economic field; and whether he will make a statement.

The Scottish Office has, in recent years, made a number of arrangements for co-operation with Scottish universities in economic research and, since 1964, has directly commissioned 17 research projects in the economic field. Encouragement has also been given to local authorities and other bodies to commission economic research.

While I welcome this massive support for the study of the economy carried out by Scottish universities, would my hon. Friend agree that a systematic study of the exploitation of Scotland's natural resources, land and sea, mountain and river, would best be undertaken by a university based in the Highlands?

We must use the facilities which exist at present. I would not like to comment on that point at this moment. I accept that since 1964 the greatly increased interest in research into the economy of Scotland reflects the importance of understanding the problems and of marshalling the potential of the Scottish economy.

Will the Minister say whether part of the promotion of economic research in the universities involves the payment of Scottish university professors to carry out a running examination into vital economic questions so that they may give the Minister advice?

The 17 research projects which are mentioned are estimated to cost £229,000, £193,000 of which the Scottish Office will bear on its Vote. As to the other question of continuing advice to the Secretary of State, the hon. Lady will know that the Secretary of State has economic consultants to give him continuing advice.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) whether the reduction of 1,500 houses in the Scottish housing programme in 1968 and in 1969 is being carried out; and how many families on local authority housing lists he estimates will be affected by this cut;

(2) whether he still expects to reach the official target of 50,000 houses a year in Scotland by 1970.

The decision to reduce the number of approvals planned for 1968 and 1969 was announced on 16th January, 1968, but it has not so far been necessary to reject any proposal which was otherwise acceptable.

The targets set in 1965 envisaged a massive expansion of housing, both public and private. Good progress has been made in both sectors, with new records of starts and completions achieved in 1968, but it is unlikely that 50,000 completions will be reached as early as 1970.

Does the Minister of State not recall that in order to obtain votes, he and his hon. Friends made the pledge of achieving 50,000 houses by 1970? Does he not also recall that the Prime Minister reinforced this pledge by stating that no circumstances, however adverse, would deflect him from this aim? Could the hon. Gentleman advise the House what value we can now place on Government pledges?

The hon. Gentleman must know that this Government, unlike the previous Government which adopted no target at all, adopt real targets, not phoney ones. The target consists of two parts, involving both the public and private sectors. In the public sector we have in the four years 1965 to 1968 approved 135,227 houses, which is 3,000 more than we had planned for in 1965. As for the private sector, I would willingly give figures if hon. Gentlemen opposite can bear to be embarrassed by them.

Would my hon. Friend give some indication of how the target has been affected by the change of administration in Glasgow, which will mean a great reduction in the number of new houses built?

So far it has not been significant, though last year was one of the most disappointing years in terms of building in Glasgow, when we were down by nearly 1,000. This year we are behind by nearly 900 starts. This is entirely due to the present administration.

How much is the shortfall due to too few private houses being built in Glasgow? Why does the Minister not encourage more people to build private houses, ask local authorities to charge rents appropriate to people's earnings, and get mortgages down to a more reasonable level?

The hon. Member has put his finger on the point about the private sector. Despite the fact that last year we built 8,719 houses, the highest figure since 1934; despite the fact that in the last year we have seen starts of 9,918 houses in the private sector, again a high figure, it is nowhere near the 12,000 which the private sector was expecting to build by the calendar year 1970.

Is my hon. Friend aware that had hon. Members opposite achieved anything near the rate of building that we have achieved we would, by this time, have housed a further 250,000 people?

This is a friendly and healthy rivalry which both sides should enter into and maintain. Unfortunately, the party opposite were active in this matter for only a few years and then, for a decade they let Scotland slip behind in housing.

Is not one of the problems the shortage of land zoned for residential development? What is the hon. Gentleman doing to ease that problem?

Yes, it is true that in the 13 years very little was done in Scotland, but fortunately, through the efforts of the working party of private builders and the much-derided Land Commission, which hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to destroy, we have tried to seek more land to be zoned for residential occupation. We hope to be successful.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply. I should like to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much public money was spent last year on historic buildings; and how this compares with the amount spent in the years 1963 and 1964.

Expenditure on grants recommended by the Historic Buildings Council for Scotland was £82,500 in the financial year 1968–69; and £36,900 in 1962–63, £27,000 in 1963–64 and £33,800 in 1964–65.

Is my hon. Friend aware that people in Scotland know the economic difficulties and will appreciate the figures which he has given?

I am obliged for what my hon. Friend has said. We recognise the immense heritage in these buildings.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will announce his decision about building in the Alnwickhill area of Edinburgh.

When my right hon. Friend has received and considered the report of the public local inquiry which was held in April.

Will the Minister remember the importance of open spaces in Edinburgh, and when he comes to examine the case will he remember the expense to which my constituents have been put, not only in this inquiry but in a previous one only three years ago?

Yes, Sir. We would hope to receive this report in about a month's time.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had with Edinburgh Corporation about transport problems in the city and in surrounding areas; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has asked Edinburgh Corporation, like other urban authorities, to prepare a comprehensive traffic and transport plan as a basis for traffic managements schemes and the allocation of grants for road improvements, and the Government are financially assisting the transportation and environmental study of the central area of the city.

I am glad to hear that, but when will these proposals be forthcoming? Does the Minister realise that traffic problems in Edinburgh are getting steadily worse? In his consideration, will he bear in mind the possibility of bringing back the local railways?

I expected that last supplementary question. However, to comment on his first point, the hon. Gentleman knows how anxious my right hon. Friend has been to encourage Edinburgh to carry out two studies, and the city has agreed to do so. The transport side will cost £160,000, of which we shall contribute £60,000. The environmental side will cost £100,000, and the Department will contribute up to £50,000 of that. As for the railways, the hon. Gentleman knows that the intention of British Railways to retain only the main corridors has been supported by the East-Central Scotland Survey already. But it is a fair comment, and we shall take it into account.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the abolition of fee-paying in Edinburgh schools will contribute considerably to the solution of the peak hour traffic problem in Edinburgh?

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will discontinue the Scottish Economic Planning Council.

No, Sir.

I appreciate that the council consists of extremely busy and distinguished men, but how can that body consider the future economic planning of Scotland if it meets only for about 15 hours a year?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Economic Planning Council is of great help to me in advising on a wide range of matters. It works on the basis of three committees, concerned with regional, industrial and transport questions. When it comes to the actual council meeting, a considerable amount of the work has already been done. The hon. Gentleman, of all people, should appreciate the value of its work in relation to the colliery closure programme and the special development area and the urgency that it stressed to me and other Departments of the need for getting new industry into his area.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the total time he spent during 1968 in the Chair during sessions of the Scottish Economic Planning Council.

About 15 hours.

Since the Secretary of State is in the chair at meetings of a body whose task is to advise him, is he satisfied that this is the best arrange- ment and that the full potential of the council is being used?

If we try to judge upon the basis of the number of hours we shall get a wrong impression. The importance of the work that is done is immeasurable. The work done by the committees concerned with regional, industrial and transport matters has proved invaluable. When one remembers the advice that I am given in one hour of Scottish Questions and the amount of information which can be imparted in that time, one appreciates the value of 15 hours of purposeful work by men of the quality of the members of the Economic Planning Council. It is quite wrong to deride the council in the terms that the hon. Gentleman used.

As the deputy chairman of the Economic Planning Council has said that he does not believe that there is such a thing as the Scottish economy—and I trust that that is not the view of the Secretary of State—can he assure us that he personally will be in the chair at all sessions of this body, if it is to continue, and, failing that, at least that a deputy chairman who believes in the Scottish economy will be appointed?

The present deputy chairman has done more for the Scottish economy and for Scottish working people than any member of the hon. Lady's party has done. I regard her attack on him as quite unworthy. He serves without pay and does his work extremely well.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his official meeting with the Scottish Police Federation at Rothesay on 2nd May.

At the invitation of the Scottish Police Federation, I addressed delegates to their annual general meeting and spoke on a number of subjects, among them crime prevention, traffic, civilianisation, crimes of violence and pay.

Did the police discuss with my right hon. Friend the serious shortage of police throughout the country and, further, did he discuss with them the controversial matter concerning the powers of search, on which, incidentally, I agree with the Scottish Office? Can he say anything further about that?

We did not discuss to any extent the powers of search, although it is a matter which has been discussed on past occasions. The shortage of police and the need to get them up to establishment is one of the matters to which we give attention at our annual meeting.

In view of the widespread anxiety about the shortage of police and the alleged increase in crime, will the right hon. Gentleman consider publishing an authoritative White Paper on the situation? A great many statistics which are produced appear to depend upon what base year one takes. It would help in these vital and controversial matters to have an authoritative statement on how he sees the situation.

This is a relevant point. When I spoke to the police I said that there was something of the "numbers game" in all these statistics, where a base year was picked, neglecting changes which had taken place as a result of Bills concerned with such matters as capital murder, and varying factors of all kinds. It might be worth considering, in the light of our interest in this problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now make a statement on the results of his Department's discussions with local authorities in Scotland on the responsibility for payments to cover expenses made necessary by the strengthening of certain multi-storey buildings.

The Government have offered to meet 40 per cent. of the cost of strengthening work and of incidental expenses.

Is not 40 per cent. much less than was expected? How can the Government justify an offer of so small a percentage when neither the Scottish local authorities nor the ratepayers can be held responsible for these costs?

I cannot accept that last comment. These houses are the property of the local authorities and the ratepayers concerned. As for the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, it may be true that people expected more. However, the 40 per cent. is broadly in line with the Government's share of new building, as represented by the current subsidy, which was revised recently.

What proportion of the total estimated cost is to be borne by Glasgow?

Without notice, I cannot say. There are about 170 blocks, or 12,000 houses, in large panel construction in Scotland, but they do not all need strengthening, so it is difficult to make the calculation.

Why should the local authorities be burdened with the major share of the cost of putting matters right? After all, the Government encouraged local authorities to build houses of this kind.

The hon. Gentleman has it wrong. The Government compelled no local authoritiy to build any single multistorey block. In my experience, we have had to discourage local authorities from overdoing multi-storey building, and Glasgow is one example.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will introduce legislation to remove the anomaly by which rates have to be paid on a building containing fattening pigs, but not on one adjoining it which houses store pigs.

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, my right hon. Friend is considering the issues raised by the rating of intensive livestock buildings. He hopes that his consideration will be completed fairly soon and he will announce his decision as soon as he is in a position to do so.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that this is not a matter which concerns only intensive units? It goes far beyond now. Is he further aware that we are giving him every possible encouragement to make the statement, the expectation of which raised the hopes of farmers, as evidenced in their publication the other day which was headed, "A Statement At Last"? We are anxious to help him. Can we be assured that he will not allow his right hon. Friend to make him wait for Wheatley before doing so?

If I may say so, that last aspect can be dismissed with contempt. The hon. Gentleman says that his right hon. and hon. Friends are anxious to give us every opportunity to make a statement. What he really means is that they will seek every opportunity at Question Time to put down these very complex Questions. He is not so naive as not to know many of the difficulties in this matter, and we want to come up with the right answer.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that if there is to be any increase in the rates being borne by other people, it ought not to be of such a nature that the farmers, for instance, gain at the expense of others?

All aspects of this problem will be taken into consideration, including the point put forward by my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the latest position concerning the clearing of wind-blown timber.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of the timber blown down in the January 1968 gale still remains to be cleared both in Forestry Commission and in private woodlands.

At 31st March, 46 per cent. of the Forestry Commission's timber and 51 per cent. of the timber in the private sector had been cleared and despatched to markets. On the recommendation of the Windblow Action Group, I have agreed that the transport allowances which were due to end on 30th September should be extended to 31st December.

Is the Minister aware that we are, therefore, falling even further behind with the programme? In December of last year, if the programme was to be completed by September, it required an increase of 6 per cent. every month, and we are far behind that. Will it not be two years instead of 18 months before we get this job done, very largely due to the inevitable complacency which the hon. Gentleman insists on showing?

I think that is a most unworthy remark.

I accept that we have been disappointed to some extent by the progress so far. We have been very short of labour, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but we expect that most of the timber will be cleared by the spring of 1970. As the hon. Gentleman also knows, the risk of fungal and insect damage in the winter is pretty negligible.

Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied about the spring of next year being the last date and 31st December as the right date for ending the transport subsidy?

These are our aims, in view of what was mentioned earlier about pledges and targets. We can only rely on those working there to try to help us. The claims for movement on the concessions so far have been 142,000 tons of saw logs and 27,000 tons of chipwood and pulp at a total cost of £132,000. But I take the point and will look into it.

Is the Minister aware that last year imports of all forms of timber were at the staggeringly high figure of £643 million? Does he realise that investment grants for harvesting machinery for forestry produce would go a long way immediately to assisting our balance of payments position?

I do not mind the hon. Gentleman making the point, but it is fast becoming like King Charles's head. I have no doubt that we shall discuss this matter again.

Concerning the sale of wind-blown timber, will the Minister of State inform the House whether there are any difficulties being met in disposing of it and whether wind-blown timber of the size needed is being taken up in the areas near enough to the pulp mill?

There is no lack of demand for wind-blown timber. That is not one of our problems. The real problem is shortage of labour.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is satisfied with the existing arrangements for the Scottish Economic Planning Council to consider at short notice developments, particularly those involving prospective closures and redundancies; and if he will make a statement.

The Scottish Economic Planning Council's terms of reference make it clear that its primary function is to advise me on the formulation and implementation of plans for the Scottish economy. In exercising this rôle it can and does advise me on the implications of industrial change. This does not, however, require it to become involved in the specific details of the affairs of individual firms.

Will my right hon. Friend consider whether there is a case for extending the functions of the council to include being able to meet and to offer assistance concerning sudden changes not simply of single firms but groups of firms and industries?

I can assure my right hon. Friend that the council can meet urgently where necessary. I can think of one case recently when it did so. But it would be wrong to expect or to think that it ought to take over the executive functions of the Government or of other institutions that have been established by the Government.

Has the Secretary of State seriously considered the possibility of appointing a chairman of the council, because the right hon. Gentleman is obviously involved in so much else? This would enable the council to be much more active than at present.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the council is very active indeed. I have a very good understudy in the vice-chairman, Mr. George Middleton, who is pretty well known in Scotland as the former General Secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Council. I do not think that is a problem. I understand that the council's members value the fact that when they are giving advice to the Secretary of State they are giving it directly to him when he is in the chair.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of staff employed in the new regional water boards set up under the Water (Scotland) Act 1968; and what was the number of staff employed prior to the passing of the Act.

This information is not centrally available.

I am disappointed to hear that, because these water boards were set up some time ago. I thought that some reduction in the staff was part and parcel of the improvement in the administration of the water boards set up under the Water (Scotland) Act, 1968.

As an expert, my hon. Friend knows that there is no requirement in law that the water boards should tell the Secretary of State what the staff returns are. While I take the point that we would expect some reduction in clerical and financial staff in avoiding duplication and more economic use of consultants, I think we must accept that some undertakings which have been taken over are in a run-down state which would shame some Members of this House.

Can the Minister of State give me any reason, increase or decrease of staff or not, why, in the first year of the water boards, although I have used 10,000 gallons of water less, my water bill has gone up by three times?

I will restrain myself from using the word "lousy" in that regard in conformity with the past in this House, but the hon. Gentleman knows I cannot discuss his affairs in public. We all know the reason why—at least those of us who are aware of the correspondence—but it would not be fair to the hon. Gentleman to divulge it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he proposes to set up a University Hospitals Board as recommended by the Royal Commission on Medical Education.

This recommendation requires to be considered in the context of proposals for the future organisation of health services generally.

I hope that the Under-Secretary will consider this point very seriously. With rapid advances in medical techniques and sophisticated operational techniques, would not the granting of funds and skills be more fairly allocated under such a University Teaching Hospitals Board?

We will consider this recommendation and other recommendations of the Royal Commission very carefully indeed, but I do not think that I can give an answer now. My hon. Friend will be aware that the present set-up in Scotland is quite different from that in England and Wales. Therefore, there are considerable implications in what the Royal Commission has recommended.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what has been the total amount collected by the Land Commission to date in levies upon the disposal of assets where no profit arose to the person or persons who made the disposal.

Information about betterment levy, if any, collected in these circumstances is not readily available and could be provided only at disproportionate cost.

That is a most unsatisfactory answer in view of the outrageous injustice involved in this sort of application of the levy. Is the Minister of State aware that, despite the fact that this sort of blood sucking is going on, the Land Commission to date has cost £80,000 more to run than it has brought in in revenue? Is it not the height of lunacy to keep such an operation going for a single day longer?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman will not take my advice in particular cases when I urged him, if he remembers, that negotiations should continue. I cannot help feeling that he is using these situations for party political propaganda. It is wrong to make sweeping generalisations like this, particularly at this time when the Land Commission is working so hard on this matter.

Does my hon. Friend realise that land prices around the aluminium smelter site have trebled and are likely to go on increasing? Will the Scottish Office take immediate steps to get the Land Commission to buy up that land to ensure that the profits arising from public investment come back to the public?

Off the cuff I could not make an acknowledgment on precisely that point, but I am aware that the Land Commission is engaged in negotiations in that area in support of infrastructure, if not of the actual industrial plant itself.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what proposals he has now received for building an ore terminal near Hunterston, Ayrshire.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has had, and what consultations have taken place, regarding the proposal to develop an iron-ore terminal at Hunterston.

I have received no proposals for the construction of an ore terminal at or near Hunterston. I understand, however, that Ayr county planning committee has recommended the county council to submit to me amendments of the county development plan proposing the zoning of an area at Hunterston for industry. This would provide for, among other things, an iron ore terminal if required. If this amendment comes forward, it will be considered under the normal statutory procedures, which afford full opportunity for consultation and representations.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider how much more the terminal might cost, when he gets proposals, if it were sited at Ardrossan rather than Hunterston? Will he take into account the lower infrastructure cost at Ardrossan, and also the greater cost in terms of social amenity at Hunterston, a very valuable area for the working population of Scotland when it goes on holiday, which will be destroyed?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the amendment would have to be advertised, objectors would have the right to pursue their objections at a public inquiry, and thereafter it would be a matter for me. It would be unwise at this stage for me to be decisive in respect of alternative sites, but all these relevant considerations will I am sure, be taken into account in the further progress.

Mr. John Rankin—Mr. Gordon Campbell.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that any special arrangements are now necessary—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order. The point of order will cost time from Question Time.

Mr. Speaker, surely my point of order is quite legitimate in view of the fact that I distinctly heard you call me and instead there rose the hon. Member for Moray and Nairn (Mr. Gordon Campbell), who in no way whatsoever resembles me.

Order. I thought I called half the hon. Member!

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. There was a second Question, No. 21, in the name of the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. John Robertson). I thought that the other Question was about to be called, so I naturally waited.

I was asking the Secretary of State whether he considered that special arrangements were now necessary for the planning and co-ordination of projects expected round the Clyde estuary arising from the deep water, which is increasing in value as an asset there, particularly because so many bodies and local authorities are concerned, and as we are in a period when both local authorities and the planning procedures are being changed.

I think the hon. Gentleman knows that it is because we were aware of the importance for a very much wider area that we brought together the planning authorities and had a special study leading to the Metra Report, but here we are dealing with action which has to be taken, and the initiative rests, and must rest, with the Ayr County Council planning authority.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps are being taken to deal with the teacher shortage in Scottish schools.

Recruitment of teachers is being increased as a result of various measures, including a considerable expansion in places at colleges of education. A scheme of inducement payments to teachers in designated schools of severe shortage was introduced last year, and I am consulting authorities and other appropriate bodies about possible means of improving further the distribution of teachers.

As the shortage of teachers is being seriously increased, is it not now imperative that my hon. Friend should have another look at this problem of the registration and re-registration of teachers? Does he realise that this is only going to make the problem infinitely worse in view of the fact that it is said authoritatively that so far about 10,000 teachers in Scotland have not registered?

My right hon. Friend earlier today answered Questions about registration. I could not accept the figure quoted by my hon. Friend, or anything like it. I do not believe that this has had an effect on teacher recruitment or on teacher shortage.

Can the hon. Gentleman say what the shortage of teachers will be when the school-leaving age is raised, and can he also say what steps the Government are taking to overcome this shortage?

I could not give a figure offhand, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware from the recent study which we have published with regard to staffing in secondary schools that there must be some considerable doubt about the figures of teacher shortages which were brought out previously from the returns made by local education authorities. One of the things that we are working on now is a way of getting much more accurate estimates of teacher demand than we have had up to the present.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how much new infrastructure, such as roads, will be required for the Murco project; and what he estimates will be the cost to public funds.

Until it is known whether the project will go ahead, and, if so, in what form, I cannot make such an estimate on a realistic basis.

If the right hon. Gentleman cannot give any estimate of the additional infrastructure costs, will he say what he thinks the cost of new jobs by way of grant will be, so that we may know what each job will be costing the taxpayer?

That again will depend on the ultimate form of the project if it goes ahead. I think that it would be wrong to work on a hypothetical basis at the present time when we are awaiting the report of the inquiry.

In considering this project, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the comments of the Hunt Committee and also the National Institute recently that we have had an excessive development of capital-intensive as opposed to labour-intensive industries in development areas? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this project would fall precisely into that context?

That may be true of certain parts, but I know many parts of Scotland which would welcome even capital-intensive industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will approve the integration of Jordanhill College School into the comprehensive system proposed for other fee-paying and selective schools in Glasgow.