asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a further statement on his policy regarding the future of the direct grant schools in England and Wales.

Not before I have received and considered the second report of the Public Schools Commission.

But in view of the excellence of the vast majority of direct grant schools, would the Secretary of State agree that they should be sustained and encouraged rather than penalised? As they are perhaps the best example of democratic and progressive education in this country, would the Minister, as an enlightened man, be their friend rather than their enemy?

I hope that I am the friend of all worth-while and excellent educational institutions, but we want these schools to integrate in the reorganisation of secondary schools on comprehensive lines.

Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge what does not always seem to be fully recognised, namely, the essential contribution made by these schools, particularly in the North of England, to the total provision, especially for many parents wanting a denominational education for their children?

I agree that these schools make a first rate educational contribution and also make a contribution to the provision of denominational education. At the same time we want these schools to become integrated in the general reorganisation on comprehensive lines. We cannot allow the injustice of selection to continue.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the permitted and estimated current cost of supervising school dinners, where teaching staff are not available; and to what extent schools are making use of voluntary or only nominally rewarded help.

Arrangements for supervision of children taking school meals are the responsibility of local education authorities after consultation with their teachers. I am glad to say that in most areas teachers are providing voluntary supervision and supporting the head teacher in his overall responsibility for the conduct of the school meal.

Can the Minister say whether mothers are being involved to any significant and worth-while extent?

I am sure that where they are involved it is worth while. I am not certain that it is significant. There have been some recent reports about this matter. Any voluntary service in our society is to be welcomed. I welcome the opportunity of saying on behalf of the Government that the social education concerned in the supervision of school meals is very much an educational matter and is not to be lightly written off, as I am afraid some educationists tend to write it off at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will discuss with the Committee of Vice Chancellors, the Association of University Teachers and the National Union of Students, the problems of ensuring academic freedom in the universities.

I believe that academic freedom is essential to our concept of a university, but if there are any problems, they are best left to the good sense of the universities.

But in view of the methods employed and the global tactics used to discredit their attempts, with the organised chanting and intimidation which applies in some of our universities today, does my right hon. Friend think that at least he could give public support to the recent code drawn up by the Council of the Association of University Teachers?

There is perhaps a real threat in some institutions to academic freedom, but this also is best left to be dealt with within the university community itself.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will set up a Committee of Inquiry into the post-graduate degrees and qualifications awarded by universities.

No, Sir. The awarding of degrees and other qualifications is a matter for the universities themselves. I understand that in recent years the universities have done a great deal to liberalise their higher degree regulations, and broaden the patterns of their postgraduate work.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that recently there has been a vast proliferation in the number and type of post-graduate awards and that this matter requires some attention in view of the potential rôle which graduate schools could play in our university and higher educational work in the years ahead?

My hon. Friend might like to know that the University Grants Committee in its memorandum of guidance for the 1967 quinquennium specifically indicated that there should be a slowing down of conventional postgraduate degrees and that they should be replaced by degrees with a more vocational basis and also by more post-experience degrees. The research councils, especially the Science Research Council, are making a larger proportion of their awards applicable to post-experience courses.

Has the Minister's attention been drawn to the interesting article by Mr. Martin Trow in the Higher Educational Review in which he points out the primacy of the first degree in our higher educational system? Does it not point to the desirability of some sort of inquiry on the lines suggested by the hon. Member?

At present the situation is so new in respect of the Research Council's emphasis on post-experience that we should like to see a proportion of students coming forward for this new type of award before we thought it appropriate to begin any major inquiry.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to provide for the admission of children to school at four years of age in all areas or on a voluntary basis in the education priority areas.

Local educaton authorities do not need my right hon. Friend's permission to admit children below the age of five to existing classes.

Would my right hon. Friend not consider urging them to do so? Does she not agree that this has perhaps a more important immediate contribution to make than raising the school leaving age? Is she aware that it is felt by many teachers, particularly in some priority areas, that children these days often come in at the age of five who have not seen a book and have no knowledge of primitive hygiene, and that, while play groups have a rôle to play, they take too much of a middle-class entry?

I would not like to enter into a discussion of the respective merits or demerits of raising the school leaving age and providing nursery education. But we have recently embarked on the urban programme, which means that, for the first time since the end of the war, we shall be expanding nursery education About a quarter of the four-year-olds are either in school or nursery classes at present. There are 212,000 four-year-olds in primary schools.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that what both teachers and parents passionately need is a rapid expansion of nursery education for children all over the country between the ages of three and five? Will she bear that in mind and see what she can do to get more money for it?

I quite agree. We have made a start and want to go on as soon as we have the resources in terms both of teachers and of the money for building. We regard this as a matter of high priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will set up an inquiry into the effect on the extent to which the comfort and viewing of spectators and reporters at football matches is affected by the methods used by television crews in the filming of such matches.

No, Sir. This matter is one for the football authorities.

Is my hon. Friend aware that responsibility for the comfort and viewing of spectators at football matches does not always rest with the television crews? Will he take it upon himself to deal with the football authorities in order that something better can be got from the situation at football matches of this kind? Is he aware, for instance, that when North Shields won the Amateur Cup, the B.B.C.'s film unit was refused entry to the North Shields dressing room? The football authorities have a great deal to do in this respect.

Whoever is responsible for the sad story of the North Shields Football Club, I am glad to say that it is not the Government. I referred not to television but to the football authorities. I hope that in this modern age of communications there is the maximum co-operation between both bodies in the interests of the public at large.

Will the hon. Gentleman do nothing to hinder the efficiency of the presentation on television screens of football matches, which is of a very high order in this country? Does he realise that, if he does so, he will prejudice the viewing opportunities of millions who are often working on Saturday and not able to attend matches in person?

As this House is delighted, with the rest of the sporting public, to record the successes of England, Newcastle United and others, I am pleased to pay tribute to the superb presentation of football by our television companies.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received as to the inability of children to obtain work experience due to certain sections of the Factories Acts and other legislation; and if he will consult with the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity on methods of increasing the availability of this work experience to children.

Representations have been made to me by local education authorities, teachers and other interested parties. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity told the hon. Member in reply to his Question on 22nd May, the legal and safety problems relating to work experience schemes are being considered by the Departments concerned.

Would my right hon. Friend accept, however, that this is a matter of some urgency as this vital experience is a vital part of education for mature school children?

I should not like to prejudge the issue, and all interested parties are being asked for their opinions about this. As my hon. Friend probably knows, there is not unanimity about it. The T.U.C. has recently come out against work experience even when the school leaving age is raised. But we are having all the necessary consultations, after which we shall be able to decide what to do.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now make a further statement on proposals for new negotiating machinery for university teachers' salaries.

I cannot at this stage add to what my hon. Friend the Minister of State said in reply to the hon. Member at the end of her statement on 1st May.—[Vol. 782, c. 1645–50.]

I appreciate the difficulties referred to by the hon. Lady on that occasion. Even allowing for them, will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to see that a definitive statement is made before the Summer Recess?

My right hon. Friend the First Secretary is carrying out a general review of incomes policy, and the proposals of the U.G.C. on behalf of all three bodies are being considered in that context. When she has completed her review, I have no doubt that she will make a statement on the whole subject of incomes policy.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) how many full-time students of electronics there are in English and Welsh institutions taking graduate courses at the latest available date:

In the academic year 1967–68, 7,271 students at universities and establishments of further education in England and Wales were taking first degree or diploma courses in electrical engineering, including electronics. The average annual output from these courses in the three years 1965–66–1967–68 was 1,424.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that it is good that there should be an increase in the output of electronics graduates in this modern scientific and technological age? Would she not further agree that the abolition of the 11-plus and the introduction of comprehensive education widens the pool of ability and that, as a consequence, we shall probably get more graduates?

Yes, Sir. Almost invariably, the figures confound those who are prophets of doom about our education system. The annual output of electrical engineers has risen from 1,209 in 1965–66 to 1,596 in 1967–68, and the 1967–68 entry of students was still higher at 1,700.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received about the Wolverhampton Education Committee's policy regarding secondary reorganisation in the county borough; and what replies he has sent.

Apart from the concern which my hon. Friend has expressed recently on behalf of the Wolverhampton Labour Party, I have received representations from a number of Wednesfield residents objecting to the authority's statutory proposals for reorganisation in that area. I shall reply to the latter after 17th June when the time limit for objections has expired and I have made my decision.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have had many letters from parents, teachers and teachers' organisations in both the Wolverhampton constituencies expressing concern at the attitude of the committee to comprehensive reorganisation, and that they are looking to her and her right hon. Friend to see that the Government's intentions are carried out in Wolverhampton? Will she assure us that that will be so?

As my hon. Friend knows, we were not able to agree to Wolverhampton's scheme. The two grammar schools were to be retained as selective schools. But, as my right hon Friend has said, it is his intention to introduce a Bill in the next Session of Parliament to ensure that all local authorities submit schemes for secondary reorganisation which will bring an end to selection at the age of 11.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many unrecognised boarding schools have been inspected during the last 12 months; how many of these have now been recognised as efficient; how many have been informed that they will be recognised as efficient when certain structural alterations have been completed; and how many have been informed that their applications for recognition will be rejected.

Sixty-three during the twelve months to March, 1969. Of these, six have been recognised as efficient, two have been provisionally recognised and two will be recognised when they have implemented the recommendations of the local fire officer. Of the remaining 53, one is closing, one is ceasing to take boarders, 18 have been given advice on measures needed in order to reach recognition standards, and 33 will have a decision very shortly.

Dealing with schools where recognition is dependent on structural alterations, will the right hon. Gentleman take into account the present financial stringency and give extended time for those structural alterations to be completed?

I understand that the second round is to be completed by 1972, and I should have thought that that was ample time to get this work done. I hope so, anyhow. However, if the right hon. Gentleman has any difficulties, perhaps he will talk to me about them.

Is the Minister aware that there is considerable delay in getting inspection at some schools? I know of three cases of postponements amounting in all to 18 months. Can he speed up inspection where the schools request it?

We are doing our best to speed up inspections and will continue to try and improve on the time table to which I referred in replying to the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton).

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what consultations he has now had with the British Film Institute regarding the improvement of the National Film Archive; and if he will make a statement.

A report on the future of the National Film Archive was agreed by the Governors of the British Film Institute on 5th May. The most pressing problem is the duplication of nitrate film. I am glad to say that within the last two weeks I have been able to arrange for £15,000 to be allocated in 1969–70 for this purpose. This is three times as much as the budget figure for 1968–69.

I am sure that the House welcomes the improved attitude towards the National Film Archive, but may I ask the right hon. Lady whether she recalls saying that the position was generally unsatisfactory? Is she satisfield that all the problems have been solved by her intervention?

Certainly not. The position has obviously been improved, but more money will have to be spent. This will depend on the overall grant and also on the priority given by the Governors of the British Film Institute to this particular part of the problem.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this interim improvement will be gratefully received by all concerned with films, but may I ask whether she can offer hope for a further more radical approach to the preserving of films in the reasonably near future?

My hon. Friend will recall that in a recent debate I said that the Government were in principle in favour of doing what he has just suggested. But this, again, is a matter of priorities and of stepping up the grant as fast as we can when circumstances permit—and I am not slow to ask for increased grants.

If the Government are in favour in principle of the statutory deposit of films, why on earth did they vote recently against a Bill which would have provided that power in principle?

Because it would be necessary to set up a Committee and use the staff of this House going through an exercise when we knew that it had not enough priority to be carried through into law.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a further statement on the Tate Gallery.

I hope soon to be in a position to make an announcement.

Has the right hon. Lady considered the use of the empty site at Trafalgar Square, earmarked eventually for the National Portrait Gallery, for the building of a gallery immediately so that the Tate Gallery could use it temporarily pending the provision of a new Tate Gallery when that can be provided on Millbank?

All Departments involved have given this matter careful study. They have considered all the suggestions which have come from Members of this House and interested members of the public. I believe that in the near future we shall be able to make an announcement which will win pretty general approval.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will hold consultations with the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals about improvements in the position of students within universities during the present academic year; and if he will make a statement.

Discussions were held last year between the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals and the National Union of Students, and a joint statement was issued which is largely concerned with the position of students in the academic community. It now rests with university authorities and student organisations to consider together how the principles set out in the joint statement can best be applied in individual universities.

Will the hon. Lady agree that, with very few exceptions, the universities have made considerable progress in the right direction this year and that this reflects great credit on the good sense of the vast majority of senior members and students?

Yes, indeed, many universities are putting forward proposals for reforms, some of them to the Privy Council and others have in almost all cases set up joint committees of students and staff and appear to be getting down to sensible and constructive work.

Will the hon. Lady confirm that either her Department or the University Grants Committee is keeping aro record of what has happened here so that the best existing practice can be spread as widely and easily as possible?

We are informed of any formal attempts to alter constitutions of universties. In some cases we have to depend on the universities informing us what is going ahead. We do our best to learn. I hope that the universities will take up the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion and keep us informed as far as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is the estimated number of new secondary school places to be provided under his three-year programme of extra building preparatory to raising the school leaving age; and what is the increase in the number of secondary school pupils expected in the autumn of 1973.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what figure he has set aside for building projects required for the raising of the school leaving age in 1972; and over what programme years it will be spent.

The value of the special building programme is £105 million spread over the three years 1970–73. The programme has been calculated in the expectation that some 287,000 additional pupils will be in school in September, 1973, as a result of raising the leaving age. I estimate that about 30,000 of these can be accommodated in existing schools without further building. In addition to the £105 million, £20 million has been added to the ordinary building programme to take account of the increase in voluntary staying on at school expected between now and 1973.

Does the Secretary of State think that the figures that he has just quoted will provide adequate accommodation, particularly in the North, where the disproportion of those staying on to what would be expected after the raising of the school-leaving age is particularly high?

Yes, I think so. If the hon. Gentleman does some arithmetic afterwards, he will find that I have allowed about £400 an additional place, which is a very generous allowance. I agree with him about the position in the North. I am doing my best to persuade parents there to allow children to stay on over the statutory age. I hope that all hon. Members on both sides will do the same.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what share Dorset will receive? Are there not also suggestions in the South of England that these sums will be inadequate to meet the cost?

I am not a computer and cannot carry all these figures in my head. However, if the hon. Gentleman wants the figure I will send it to him.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his estimate of the proportion of day-release students whose fees are paid for at the full economic rate by the firms sending them.

None, Sir. Only nominal fees are charged for part-time day courses of further education; for the most part no fees are charged for students under 18 and some authorities charge none for students under 21. An economic fee is charged for industrial training provided in colleges, but this normally forms part of a full-time course, of which the educational part is normally borne by public funds.

Will the hon. Lady agree that there are a number of courses now under day release which incorporate general studies with an industrial course? Would the charge to the industry not be a useful source of additional income for a part of education which needs rapid expansion?

At present there are 11,000 first-year trainees following integrated courses of education and training entirely within technical colleges. The hon. Gentleman will understand that his suggestion has its appeal to us, but I think he will find that it has much less appeal to industry, as expressed through the views of the Confederation of British Industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science which recommendations of the Estimates Committee's Report on Grants to the Arts he intends to implement.

A White Paper giving the observations of the Department, the Welsh Office and the Arts Council has been prepared but publication has been delayed by a strike at the Stationery Office. I can say, however, that the recommendations addressed directly to the Department have been accepted.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will seek powers to provide additional facilities for motor car and motor cycle trails and racing circuits.

No, Sir. The provision of facilities for motor sport is a matter for the clubs concerned or for local authorities.

Surely the Minister is aware that there is a demand not so much for international trial facilities but for ordinary trial facilities throughout the country, particularly in the Yorkshire and Humberside area. I have already written to him about this. Can any of his organisations do anything to help these bodies who wish to provide such facilities?

Yes. We are especially aware of the hon. Gentleman's continuing interest in this matter. As he says, we have been in correspondence about it. I am glad to confirm that the appropriate Sports Councils, the East Midlands as well as the Yorkshire and Humberside Sports Council, will be happy to co-operate with the motor sports to find suitable facilities in that part of the country. As both these Sports Councils have representatives of all the local authorities on them, I think this is the best way to proceed.

Does my hon. Friend not think that there is a certain moral obligation on hon. Members who put forward pet schemes like this at least to give us an estimate of the cost of such schemes when they profess to be in favour of cutting capital expenditure?

That is a very pertinent political point. But, as I am so glad to welcome support for sport from any part of the House, I leave that comment to my hon. Friend.

Will the Minister bear in mind that there are other views about this type of sport, and will he take into account the views of people who have to live near such circuits?

It is because the Government have taken account of the noise nuisance to people living near the suggested area of this sport that previous applications, in which the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr. Osborn) has been interested, have been rejected. That is not to say that we ought to disregard the devotees of this sport. Sport is essentially a matter where the individual should follow his interest. Those who follow motor car racing are just as entitled to a share in the sum as those who prefer football.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what factors led him to decide against introducing a single school leaving date.

The Government had two considerations particularly in mind: the difficulties of absorption if all leavers came on to the labour market at the same time; and that the combined effect of raising the leaving age to 16 and introducing a single leaving date would oblige some pupils to remain at school until they were nearly 17 and would be too drastic a change to make within a very short period.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this would be a desirable educational reform, and will he say whether the Government are taking steps to try to meet and remove the objections to it at the moment?

I think that the two objections I have made are irremovable, but I think that that is the kind of goal towards which we shall work in future. I hope the time will come within a few years when all pupils will have a minimum five-year secondary course.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the single certificate leaving date applies to almost every other form of education except those who leave school at the earliest possible date? If industry can be organised to receive annually people from universities, grammar schools, and those with O-levels, it ought to be organised to receive the rest.

I agree with that. As I say, I hope that we can work towards this change, but if it were done now I am sure it would be the less able pupils who would suffer. If all the pupils were put on the labour market at the same time, these pupils would probably be the ones who would be left behind in the struggle to get employment.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science (1) why arrangements were made for the Minister of State to receive a delegation from a political organisation in Newbury to discuss the reorganisation of secondary education in the area of the Newbury Divisional Executive Committee;

Five deputations on this matter were requested and I arranged for four of them to be received at senior official level. My right hon. Friend received informally an information deputation from the Newbury Constituency Labour Party to honour a long-standing undertaking given by her predecessors and because it would have been improper for officials to see such a deputation.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think it appropriate that a delegation from one political organisation should be received in this way, when a similar courtesy and opportunity was refused to the divisional executive representatives of the education committee and the teacher organisations? Might not subsequent joint meetings have been prejudiced by this earlier reaction?

As far as I am aware only one political organisation in Newbury asked for a deputation to be received. It would be improper to allow officials to receive a deputation from a political party. I always regard these as unofficial deputations. I never see them on the premises of the Department.

Is it not a very curious procedure for the right hon. Gentleman not to see the officially constituted body, the divisional executive, but for the right hon. Lady to receive, even unofficially, a particular political party? Is that not all the more discourteous and surprising bearing in mind that Berkshire has tried to pursue a policy on secondary education dictated entirely by educational considerations?

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say how many times he met Birmingham Conservatives on this matter.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I cannot recall any occasion on which I received a delegation of my party and did not receive the Labour Party in power in the local authority?

I imagine that, whether as Minister or Minister of State, the right hon. Gentleman turned down thousands of deputations. He knows that if in this Department we were to receive all the deputations we are asked to receive we should not have time to eat or breathe.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further proposals he has for encouraging voluntary work among young people.

In November, 1967, the Government launched the Young Volunteer Force Foundation, an independent organisation which has made a promising start in encouraging the development of local voluntary service schemes. In April last year a joint circular was issued making it quite clear to all statutory authorities that it was Government policy that such voluntary service by all reputable organisations should be encouraged. Currently we are conducting a survey of successful voluntary service practice, which will be published when complete.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that many of the regulations covering voluntary service prevent young people from offering their services to the community? As the hon. Gentleman is responsible for this work, will he urge his colleagues to play a more positive rôle in their Departments to encourage voluntary work, by dealing with these restrictive regulations?

I do not know the regulations which the hon. Gentleman is talking about, but if he draws my attention to them I shall be most anxious to examine them. All I can say is that the circular of April last year made it quite clear to all statutory bodies, hospital authorities, local authorities, and so on, that voluntary service to the community was a very proper object of public policy and that it was their duty to encourage it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what percentage of full-time qualified women teachers in English and Welsh primary schools on 1st April, 1966 left the grant-aided sector of education during the succeeding 12 months; and what is the corresponding figure for men teachers.

In this period 12·3 per cent. of the women and 3·9 per cent. of the men qualified teachers left service in the maintained primary schools.

Does not the quite startling dissimilarity between those two figures for men and women respectively have considerable implications for the financing of teacher-training, and indeed for the whole question of teacher salaries, and lend further currency to the argument for a debate on the Early Day Motion proposed by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) on the whole question of the structure of teachers salaries?

I do not think it is very surprising, having regard to the fact that many women leave on getting married, and leave to have children. But a great many of them return later to service in schools. In the 12 months to 1st February, 1969, 4,823 returned full- or part-time to the primary schools, so it does not mean that because they leave they do not come back into the service at a later date.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the proportion of women who return is very small compared with those who leave? Will she tell us what was the average length of service of women leaving, and of men leaving?

I could not without notice give the figures for which the hon. Gentleman has asked, but I think it is clear—it has always been so—that more women than men leave in any year but a considerable number of them come back later in life as married women teachers.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that in spite of those figures the Government will continue to support the principle of equal pay in the teaching profession?

Yes, Sir. I can give my hon. Friend that assurance.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what specific provisions he is making to meet the cost in the current year of the introduction of comprehensive secondary education.

I have been able to make available in the 1969–70 school building programme a total of over £10 million for projects specifically to help reorganisation. In addition, all other secondary projects within the total programme will contribute to comprehensive reorganisation as well as meeting the essential needs of new school places and, in some cases, the replacement of substandard schools.

Is it not a fact that to introduce comprehensive secondary education nationally on a proper and satisfactory basis in the right buildings would cost a very large sum of money indeed, and is it not nonsense for the right hon. Gentleman to threaten legislation to make this compulsory on local authorities unless and until he is prepared to provide the money?

I do not accept the premise on which that question is based. We are introducing comprehensive education on a satisfactory basis. I am not threatening to introduce a Bill. I am going to introduce a Bill. There is no threat about that.

Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that hon. Gentlemen opposite were not interested in school building until the question of comprehensive education arose? Will he not fall into the trap of saying that we cannot have any form of comprehensive education unless we can spend multi-millions on providing the buildings first? That ought not to be the reason for having comprehensive education thwarted by the Conservative Party.

The Conservative Party is willing to use any argument or any means to preserve selective secondary education.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations have now been made to him about the future of religious instruction in schools; and what reply he has made.

The great majority of representations I have received have supported the continuance of compulsory provision for religious education.

I am grateful for that reply. Is my right hon. Friend aware that, over the past weeks, at least 350 letters have come from my constituency asking for an assurance that religious education in non-denominational schools will continue? Will he use his endeavours to make certain that his comments and intentions in this matter are made available to local authorities and to the parent-teacher associations?

I agree with my hon. Friend. My views on this are widely known, and I receive hundreds of letters each week about it. It is as well to bear in mind that the only compulsion here is on the local authorities to provide this kind of teaching. There is no compulsion on the parent or the teacher. What would be oppressive is to deny the vast majority of parents this kind of teaching because a minority did not want it.

Does my right hon. Friend not realise that a distinction may be drawn between moral education on the one hand and religious instruction on the other, and that many parents recognised this in their replies to the recent N.O.P. poll, in which they said that, while they were in favour of the one, they were certainly opposed to the other?

I do not think that the poll did any such thing. It was done on a completely wrong basis. Of course all parents are in favour of moral education, but the vast majority want to go further and have religious education as well.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us who profoundly disagree with his secondary education policy are deeply grateful to him for his defence of the principle of religious education in our schools?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proposals he has for the improvement in the quality and content of religious instruction courses in teacher training colleges.

The quality and content of college of education courses in religious instruction is the responsibility of college academic boards and of area training organisations. By means of courses and conferences, in which H.M. inspectors play a vigorous part, and through visits to colleges, improvements in the teaching of this subject, as of others, are constantly being sought.

Would my right hon. Friend agree that the teaching of religion is best based in the homes of the children rather than in the schools, but that in the schools it should not be just another item on the curriculum but should permeate the life of the school?

I agree with that. It is a matter for the whole conduct of the school and the whole curriculum, but I think, also, that it is extremely important to regard this in the context of education. It is part of the education of the children.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the progress of the Arts Council national inquiry into British orchestras.

The inquiry is meeting for the first time on 18th June. The Chairman is Professor Alan Peacock of the University of York. With permission I will circulate the names of the other members in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

We shall welcome the Report when it comes, but, in the meantime, does the right hon. Lady recognise that many orchestras outside London need urgent attention and are losing their best musicians to London because they cannot pay London wages? Will she give this her urgent attention, because these people have a real concern in the life of the music of the country?

I fully appreciate that point. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is a very comprehensive inquiry, and that there will be no unnecessary delay.

What consultations is the right hon. Lady having about the grave concern aroused among members of the regional orchestras in view of the rumours circulating about possible B.B.C. action in this respect?

I am sure that that comment will be noted by the Postmaster-General and by the Governors of the B.B.C., as well as in all quarters of the House. A big effort has been made, particularly by the Arts Council, to ensure that the attention of the appropriate authorities is drawn to our concern.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give the details of the number of post-graduate awards in town planning to be made available for the academic year 1969–70; and whether he will make a statement.

207 new awards have so far been made available by the Social Science Research Council in town and country planning. Some additional awards can be expected when the council's reserves are allocated in the autumn. The total is likely to be some 30 per cent. higher than the figure of awards for 1968–69.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, but is she aware of the concern expressed by the Town and Country Planning Institute following the transfer of responsibilities to the Social Science Research Council? Will she give an assurance that the number of awards is sufficient to meet the number of course places, which, at the moment, I understand, is 406?

I am aware of the representations of the Town and Country Planning Institute. They were made before the recent increases, and I can only trust that, perhaps unusually, the Press and hon. Gentlemen opposite will give as much attention to a real increase as they gave to a totally false reduction.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement on the future of secondary education in the county of Essex.

The pattern will be in accordance with the local education authority's approved reorganisation plans but in the case of Chigwell the authority is reconsidering its original plan for the area at my request.

Does the right hon. Lady not agree that the situation in Chigwell presents very serious difficulties in moving over to a complete system of comprehensive education? Will the Department take the special problems of this district into consideration and not be too wooden about the matter?

I agree that there are special problems here and we want to do all we can to help. My departmental officials will always be available for that. But the reason why I asked Essex to think again about Chigwell is that the plan which it put to us involved the replacement of a large amount of post-war secondary school buildings, and we wanted to see whether that could be avoided.