asked the Minister of Power what steps he has taken to ensure that advice to consumers on the safe operation of appliances converted to natural gas is adequately publicised.

asked the Minister of Power what research is being carried out on the combustion of natural gas in domestic appliances, including those suitably modified, to reduce the danger of producing carbon monoxide; and how many deaths and accidents due to this cause have been notified to him to date this year.

Gas boards issue new instructions to consumers with conversion sets if operating methods change as a result of conversion to natural gas. Special arrangements have been made for labels giving advice on safe operation to be fixed to water heaters in bathrooms. Research into all aspects of the use of natural gas in domestic appliances, including their safe operation, is carried out at the Gas Council's Watson House Research Station. One death from carbon monoxide poisoning has been reported this year, due primarily to lack of ventilation, not conversion to natural gas.

In addition to that, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that, in the various communications which the area gas boards rightly have with consumers before conversion, enough stress is laid on safe operation?

The important thing is to ensure that consumers are informed on these matters when the appliances are fixed, rather than in the general notices which are received beforehand during the programming of conversion, but I will certainly draw the attention of the Gas Council to the point.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied, however, that these conversions are always done by completely competent individuals, particularly when the work is sub-contracted? Are adequate arrangements available for inspection by gas board staff?

On the last point, that is the position. I accept that, in the early stages of these conversion programmes, there have been some difficulties—one should not exaggerate their extent—with the training of certain personnel. Having had close contact with the industry on these matters in recent months, I am persuaded that they have caught up with the problems and that things will improve rapidly from now on.

asked the Minister of Power if he will institute an inquiry into the increased charges being imposed on the consumer in areas where conversion to natural gas has taken place, in view of the official assurance to the public that natural gas would not cost the consumer more.

No, Sir. There has been no change in gas charges since the general increase over a year ago, which was not related to conversion to natural gas.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the West Midlands Gas Board has been inundated with complaints about there having been substantial rises in gas bills following the conversion of appliances to natural gas? As all these complaints cannot be based on the increased consumption of gas, is not the slogan "Natural gas is cheaper" something of a confidence trick from the public's point of view?

I suggest that the hon. Gentleman includes that text in his next advertisement in his local newspaper. The probable answer lies in the fact that there was a sharp spell of cold weather earlier this year. Individual bills may, in some cases, have gone up. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that there has been a general increase in charges as a result of conversion. On the contrary, a number of boards have introduced reductions rather than increases.

asked the Minister of Power what is the rate at which the Board's workmen are recalled to do work again on natural gas conversion in the West Midlands Gas Board's area; and whether he will direct the Board to carry out all legitimate repairs and adjustments, made necessary by faulty conversion, at no cost to the consumer for at least another six-month period.

In the West Midlands Board's area, about 25 per cent. of conversions now need further attention. The Board does not set a limit to the period during which a follow-up service clearly attributable to conversion is carried out free of charge.

As members of the public have no choice about being converted, will the hon. Gentleman make it perfectly clear to the Board that it must allow a reasonable time for repairs to be done owing to the abnormal number of callbacks that have been made?

I am not clear for what the hon. Gentleman is asking. I have indicated—I understand that the Board indicates this clearly in the circular letters which it sends out locally and which I have seen—that where there is a requirement for a follow-up service which is clearly attributable to conversion, there is no time limit on the carrying out of that work free of charge.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the West Midlands Gas Board has already given an unequivocal assurance that it will examine any complaints that are made? However, will he please take note of the fact that there is a great deal of constituency concern over this matter?

I am aware of the concern that exists, not only in my hon. Friend's constituency and in that of the hon. Member for Warwick and Learning-ton (Mr. Dudley Smith) but in a number of other constituencies. This is the reason why we have had previous Questions on the subject. I wish to make it perfectly clear that no matter how considerable the number of complaints may seem, taken in toto they represent a very small percentage indeed of the total programme which is being undertaken in Britain.

Would the hon. Gentleman in future please take more seriously the complaints that are made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Dudley Smith) and not deal with such matters lightly or make unnecessary comments? [HON. MEMBERS: "Get on."] Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that a call-back figure of 25 per cent. is high and should be reduced? Is the present call-back rate better than it was a year ago and is the position being improved?

I cannot, off the cuff, quote figures about the earlier position in this programme. Each successive expansion of the conversion programme in the areas of boards is showing a reduction in the call-back numbers. There are bound to be a number of call-backs when thousands of appliances are involved and particularly when, in some instances, boards are coming across appliances of which both the consumers and boards were not aware at the time. I assure hon. Members that there is a progressive reduction in the number of call-backs and that the reduction will continue as the Boards gain experience.

asked the Minister of Power what progress is being made in conversion of industrial consumers to the use of natural gas.

Up to 31st March, 1969, nearly 3,000 industrial consumers had been converted; consuming about 45 per cent. of natural gas being supplied direct. A major expansion of the industrial gas market is planned, to increase sales nearly fourfold over the next five years.

To what extent have industrial conversions been satisfactory? What success has been achieved in expanding markets particularly in preference to the use of other forms of fuel?

The actual programme works that have been undertaken in the industrial field have proceeded very smoothly. Boards and converting firms have reported satisfaction with the results in papers delivered to technical conferences where representatives have made their views known. As to success in expanding markets, new contracts which have been concluded will build up to more than total industrial sales last year. The contracts for I.C.I. and Shellstar alone account for nearly 1,000 million therms a year.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary persuade the Council to use the highest possible proportion of natural gas for industrial purposes in view of the wide dissatisfaction with the use of this gas for domestic appliances?

I do not accept that there is widespread dissatisfaction with the domestic use. As I said earlier, there have been a minority of cases where problems have arisen and are continuing. On the question of industrial sales the hon. Gentleman is asking the gas industry to do precisely what it is already doing.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has now fixed a financial target for the electricity industry for the current financial year.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has now fixed a financial target for the coal industry for the current financial year.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will make a statement on the financial target for the gas industry for the current financial year and for the period 1969 to 1974.

asked the Minister of Power (1) if he will set identical financial targets for all the industries under his control, expressed in terms of a percentage return on capital employed;

asked the Minister of Power whether he has now fixed a financial target for the coal industry over a period of years in accordance with Government policy as set out in Command Paper No. 3437.

As regards gas and electricity, I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Honiton (Mr. Emery) on 29th April—[Vol. 782, c. 1134]. On coal, I hope to make a statement fairly soon. The financial objective of the British Steel Corporation is under consideration following the Report of the N.B.P.I. on steel prices.

But what is the point of a target if it is not fixed and announced well before the financial year to which it relates?

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, but we have had to work within the framework of Cmnd. 3437, which has set difficult criteria, and we have had to have a fresh round of talks with all the nationalised industries before we could establish it. We are a month or two late, but it is for five years, so there is no urgency in that respect.

But would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, in the absence of a target, there is no way of knowing whether these industries are being effected, and that his answer to my hon. Friend is no answer at all? Why has there been this delay?

For precisely the reasons which I gave to the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane).

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that, if the targets should be altered from anything which has existed so far, the chances of the industries being able to make any alteration in management policy now which will be effective during this first year is almost minimal, and that we must know, before 25 per cent. of the year is through, or else it does not mean a thing?

But, in view of the fact that the chairmen and the boards of the various industries are in consultation with the Treasury and my Department, they are fully aware of the trend and of what the financial target will eventually be.

Since Cmnd. 3437 was published in November, 1967, what on earth have the Government been doing since then, when they announced their intention to set targets for all the industries? Would the right hon. Gentleman say if he is now prepared to set targets on the same basis; that is, a return on net assets for all the fuel industries?

The answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that I cannot give such an assurance. They may vary. The answer to the first part is that Cmnd. 3437 set very difficult criteria to follow. It has, therefore, taken some time to finalise this matter. I hope, however, that we will be able to set them all and I also hope that we will be able to let the House know about this before the Summer Recess.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has now finished his consideration of the Report of the Wilson Committee, Command Paper No. 3960; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir. So far as the future is concerned, the principal conclusions relate to the avoidance of excessive fluctuations in the C.E.G.B.'s plant programme and the rôles of the C.E.G.B. and the nuclear consortia. These matters require considerable study and consultations and some time must elapse before long-term solutions can be concerted.

Is the right hon. Gentleman able to give an indication of when he is likely to take steps to meet some of the points that were raised, particularly those relating to uneconomic manning arrangements by the C.E.G.B.?

If the hon. Gentleman has read the Report, as I am sure he has, he will know that the Wilson Committee suggested that a number of short-term measures were needed and that remedial steps were being taken by the C.E.G.B. and others. As soon as I have anything to announce from the point of view of longer-term solution, I will inform the House.

Would the right hon. Gentleman consider what effect the delay in plant ordering may have on the finances of the contracting industry? May not this result in higher tendering costs later? Could not these higher costs be avoided by ordering a power station in the next year?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that this matter is very much in our minds. The part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question concerning the possible effects of this on plant manufacturers is really a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Technology rather than for me. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware how all this came about. We have a margin of generating capacity of at least 17 per cent. because in the early '60s hon. Gentlemen opposite when in power, did some bad planning and bad forecasting which caused the bunching of orders, and we therefore have this excess.

asked the Minister of Power whether he has completed his consideration of measures to protect from overcharging those who consume electricity through privately installed meters; and what steps he proposes to take.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will now introduce legislation to make it a criminal offence to overcharge for the resale of electricity and gas.

My review is not yet complete, but I am determined to find a solution.

Did not the hon. Gentleman say as long ago as December, 1967 that he was awaiting further evidence? Is not he aware of the Consumer Council's recent survey in Sheffield? What further evidence does he want before deciding how to act?

The answer to the first point raised in the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that I do not recall undertaking a review of possible legislation in December, 1967. I am aware, in answer to the second point, of the survey which was conducted in Sheffield, in addition to other inquiries that have been, or are being, made because I was largely responsible for their initiation.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is cause for concern and a need to obtain the fullest information before the extent of the problem can be fully measured? What consideration is he giving to having a thorough survey into the issue?

I assure my hon. Friend that we have given thought to undertaking a survey to get more detailed and comprehensive information about the problem. However, we have come to the conclusion that, at least for the present, we have enough information to justify our taking action without spending further time and money conducting a survey Nevertheless, I appreciate that we may have to look at this matter again later.

Why should the Minister even talk about the possibility of spending further time and money conducting a survey when the Consumer Council, which is designed to protect consumer interests, has already carried out such a survey, which revealed some important facts; for example, that a large number of students do not know who owns the meters, what rate is charged or that a fixed rate has been set by the Electricity Council?

I am not clear about what the hon. Gentleman is asking me. He began by asking why we needed a survey and went on to say that a survey had already been conducted. I explained that we had sufficient information on which to act because of the facts that had been put before us.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the best means of dealing with this problem would be to make it a criminal offence?

We are considering how we could in practice apply control, or the kind of legislation that would be appropriate. It is not the principle that is being queried.

asked the Minister of Power what consultations he has had with interested bodies on possible ways of preventing over-charging for electricity consumed through privately installed meters.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will now introduce legislation to enforce the maximum resale prices of electricity and gas by the respective boards.

I would refer hon. Members to my reply of 10th June to the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) [Vol. 784, c. 227].

Would it not be a good idea, in respect of privately installed meters, to require compulsorily that the local maximum rate should be given to the tenant and also the rate at which the meter has been set? Should that not be done fairly quickly?

We have discussed over quite a period methods by which there could be greater publicity given, not only to the maximum charges but also about advice from consultative councils and the like, which would' enable consumers to read their own meters more easily and to establish whether they are being overcharged.

Would my hon. Friend consult with local authority bodies to see whether there is any prospect of enforcing the present legislation through the media of local government inspectors, who would be doing their normal work in relation to housing of a poor nature?

We have not embarked on any consultations with the local authority associations on this matter. We are in touch with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing on the possibility. In the meantime we have been looking at the various ways in which this matter might be pursued legislatively, and I have asked the consultative council chairmen and their members to make inquiries locally with local authority health officers and the like to see how best they envisage this matter being handled before we come to conclusions on it.

asked the Minister of Power what contributions his Department makes to the work of the Economic Commission for Europe and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development.

The O.E.C.D. and E.C.E. provide for the international discussion of a wide range of problems relevant to my Department's work, such international discussion can yield useful dividends and my officials play a full part in the work of these bodies.

Can my right hon. Friend give some further information about the studies in which these bodies are engaged? Can he say whether he has reached any conclusions on the likely effects for the British domestic fuel industry of British membership of the E.E.C.?

Some of the recent studies the Economic Commission for Europe has in hand include new uses for steel. It is also arranging a conference on a long-term market for coal. As to other fuel uses, there is the long-term look at supplies of coking coal. This is a joint study between this country and the European Coal Commission.

asked the Minister of Power what further progress has been made with studies of joint reading of electricity and gas meters; and if he will make a statement.

I understand that the Gas and Electricity Councils doubt whether the outcome of their joint studies would justify further action, but I am awaiting their detailed findings, which the Department will examine closely before my right hon. Friend the Minister comes to a conclusion on the matter.

Is my hon. Friend aware that part of his Answer will cause great concern? Is he aware that if it were possible to have joint meter reading that would lead to very great savings? Is he aware of the concern about primary charges imposed by gas boards in some regions?

The latter point is not particularly related to joint meter readings. On the question of savings this is a possibility. One thing I learned about before the industries were asked to look at this matter more thoroughly was that there had been close integration of accounting with other managerial techniques involved with computerisation. This is not to pre-judge what is to happen. The councils have been giving us no more than their bare conclusions. I ask hon. Members to await further considerations of this matter.

asked the Minister of Power what is the estimated proportion of homes where electricity and gas meter readers are unable to obtain access during the day as the family are all out; and what is the estimated economy from sending meter readers out mainly in the evenings.

This is a matter for the two industries, and I am asking the two Councils to write to my hon. Friend.

Is my hon. Friend aware that at the recent annual conference of service managers in the private sector, stress was laid on the need to move servicing and maintenance generally to the evenings because of the greater number of people who are at home at that time? Will he ask the industries concerned to give this matter very serious consideration?

I was not aware of the conference to which my hon. Friend has referred. As I have said, I have asked the Councils to look at this and I shall write to my hon. Friend when I know what they say.

Is my hon. Friend aware of a common practice in the United States where the meter box is set into the outside wall of the house and can be read from outside by the use of a special key, whether anyone is in the house or not? Will he have consultations with the Minister of Public Building and Works on this?

That is a suggestion which has been looked at time after time over a number of years and has been adopted by some local authorities and private developers, but it rests very largely in their hands and not in the hands of the industries. It is a matter for the developers, private or public, on which they can make further research and possible development.

asked the Minister of Power what is the result of his consultations on the use of household and industrial refuse as a source of energy for domestic and industrial district heating; and what steps he is now taking to co-ordinate the collection of refuse to use for heating purposes.

Government Departments are co-operating in the examination of district heating policy on a continuous basis, including the incorporation of incineration plants in such schemes. If my hon. Friend wishes to have information about particular schemes I will do my best to help him.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the progress of local authorities towards district heating has been very slow, and towards district heating based on refuse almost nil? Does he accept that tens of millions of pounds could be saved in this way and that we are falling behind some European countries in these developments?

I think there is little doubt that in many respects we are behind certain Western European countries in this connection. As to past experience, it is true that relatively little has been done in this country, but recently there has been a considerable growth of interest in this field, both in public and private undertakings, and the Department wishes to encourage it.

Is not one of the difficulties that local authorities have not adequate powers to implement district heating schemes and they have to intro- duce private Bills if they are to make progress? Will the hon. Gentleman and the Department seriously consider introducing a national programme to encourage local authorities to make progress in this matter next Session?

I appreciate the points made by the hon. Member. I take it that he was referring to the provision of services under public highways and the like. He should put that question before the Ministry of Housing and Local Government.

asked the Minister of Power what is the average price of smokeless fuel in Scotland and England, respectively.

asked the Minister of Power if he will give details of prices of smokeless fuel in Scotland and England, respectively.

I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on 4th February, 1969.—[Vol. 777, c. 202.]

It is about time the Parliamentary Secretary said that he did not have the information. Is it not absolutely disgraceful that when the Ministry, in conjunction with N.B.P.I., decides on increases in fuel prices he should not even have detailed information on the prices paid by people on such a very important basic item of the family budget, particularly in smokeless areas? Will he try to find out some facts?

The hon. Gentleman should cease his bawling, even if it is rather quiet. He has misquoted what I said on the last occasion that the Question was put to me. I then said:

"There is such variation in the prices as between different smokeless fuels, individual retailers towns and cities in different parts of the country, mainly reflecting transport costs, that it is not practicable to give accurate averages."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Vol. 777, c. 202–3.]

Is it not very expensive for the Civil Service to produce such figures as these?

It is not a question of expense to the Civil Service. It is a question of practicability.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that the cost of smokeless fuel is high in Scotland and that as long as we have the United Kingdom we should at least have the benefit of prices that are no higher than United Kingdom prices?

Oh!

I think that the hon. Lady has already had her answer. My only additional comment would be that this is very largely a question for the merchants. Unlike other fuel industries such as gas and electricity, the distribution is in the hands very largely of individual merchants who range in size and number considerably throughout the country.

asked the Minister of Power by what percentage the price of gas for domestic consumption in Scotland exceeded the price in England and Wales in the most recent annual period for which figures are available.

Average domestic revenue per therm in Scotland in 1967–68 was 31.·5 pence. This was about 30 per cent. above the average for England and Wales, but lies within the range of variation for individual boards in those countries.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary explain why the price of gas in Scotland in 1964 was 13 per cent. more than the average in England and Wales and why in every year since then it has increased until Scotland is now, according to his figures, paying about one-third more for gas compared with the average for England and Wales? When will there be a reverse of this trend?

The costs of production are different. That comment applies to the previous Question, too. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman listened sufficiently carefully to my Answer. The last part pointed out that this 30 per cent. difference lay within the range of variation for individual boards in England and Wales.

Since gas is hardly made from coal at all, what is the new factor making for higher costs in Scotland? Will the Parliamentary Secretary have an inquiry into this matter, because it seems no longer to bear any relevance to costs?

A very large part of the difference in the cost of gas production in Scotland arises besause there is a much lower average density of population than that in the country as a whole and therefore the servicing of supplies to widespread communities is higher, as indeed it is in other similar parts of the United Kingdom.

On a point of order. In view of the highly unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will now make a statement on revised steel prices and their estimated effects on steel imports which continue to rise.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the recent recommendations by the National Board for Prices and Incomes on steel price increases.

On the general issue I have nothing to add to the statement I made in the House last Thursday. As regards imports, the Corporation expects the price increases to have little effect, since comparable or greater increases have already occurred abroad.—[Vol. 784, c. 1679]

Why is the Minister conspiring—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."]—"conspiring", I said—with the British Steel Corporation to frustrate the policy of his own Government in the matter of import substitution? Is he not aware that iron and steel imports account for hundreds of millions of £s annually, much of which could be substituted by home-produced steel if his own policy in pricing were realistic and strictly applicable to our current position?

It is not possible to find import substitution for the variety of steel products that enter this country, but the hon. Gentleman should know that a good percentage of what is imported is re-rolled and re-exported.

Is the Minister aware that there will be widespread support for his disregarding the recommendations of the National Board for Prices and Incomes on the actual implementation of the scaling down of the proposed increase but that this raises the much more important question as to whether that detailed application was the recommendation of Booz-Allen, the consultants employed by the Board, or was a recommendation superimposed by the Board's permanent staff on the consultants' findings?

I do not see any reason why we should drag through this House the report by Booz-Allen, the consultants who looked into this question. I do not think that it would be right and proper.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that action is needed with regard to imports of steel? Why are the Government and the Corporation not proceeding with a policy of stocking steel at times of less demand in accordance with the recommendation of the Standing Committee which considered the nationalisation Bill, on which the Minister promised to act?

This is under consideration. On stocking, my hon. Friend must know that in my statement last week on the pricing of small extras we agreed that we would encourage the Corporation to make longer runs and therefore increase its efficiency in that respect and that in regard to short orders we would encourage stockholders and stockists to take more. That is a useful first step.

Does not the solution to the import problem rest in having adequate home capacity? Can my right hon. Friend give an assurance that the reduction in the requested increase following the acceptance of the National Board's recommendation will not in any way adversely affect the forward investment programme of the Corporation?

This is what we must try to avoid. My hon. Friend is right on the question of home capacity. One of the problems is that the Corporation must quickly iron out many of the bottlenecks in production and thereby be able to cut back on imports.

As the Minister seems implicitly to accept that there was a conflict between the advice of the con- sultants Booz-Allen and the recommendation of the Prices and Incomes Board, will he lay the report of Booz-Allen before the House?

I have not got the report. I am only aware of it. I have not seen the Booz-Allen report, but I am generally aware of what it contains. It is not within my province to lay that report before the House.

asked the Minister of Power whether he will now make a statement on the imports substitution value of North Sea gas for 1969–70 and the prospects for the 1970s; how much imported and how much indigenous fuel is replaced by North Sea gas; and to what extent the total potential has now been exploited.

The estimated net foreign exchange saving from North Sea gas remains about £50 million in 1970 rising to about £100 million in 1975. The gas will mainly replace oil.

Is that the maximum capacity of all the North Sea gas fields, and is it capable of increase in the next five years in the interests of making a more dynamic contribution towards our balance of payments and relieving the burden of imported fuels by indigenous-produced fuels?

On the latter point, this is something which we are intending to aim for, with the speedy absorption of natural gas into the country's economy. On the question of future capacity of natural gas supply from the North Sea, I believe that there is a further Question down on the Order Paper.

Does that Answer not refer to a conflict between imported gas and indigenous gas, contrary to the national interest and contrary to the balance of payments? Will the Minister take steps to encourage the use of the indigenous gas?

North Sea gas is indigenous gas and to the extent that it can be brought into the country's economy it will replace gas produced by oil conversion, thereby assisting our foreign exchange position.

asked the Minister of Power upon what criteria he decides whether to refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes a proposal for a price increase by one of the nationalised energy industries.

A proposed price increase will be referred to the N.B.P.I. when, in the Government's view, it is a major one or where there are other circumstances which make investigation by the National Board desirable.

How does the Minister equate this with the reasons given by the Prime Minister in 1967, when he suggested that it was necessary to take into account the industry's financial objectives? As we do not have the industry's financial objectives for the future, how can any reasonable references be made to the N.B.P.I.?

That is why I specifically said earlier in Question Time that the financial objective of the National Coal Board should be settled quite soon, and of course, before the N.B.P.I. reports.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement about the price increases which have been proposed to him by the National Coal Board.

asked the Minister of Power (1) whether he will refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes the National Coal Board's proposals for increases in coal prices;

The proposals have been referred to the National Board for Prices and Incomes.

Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that since the Government have always shown such an interest in prices, it would have been wiser for them to have got the pricing policy of the N.C.B. right before having these prices considered?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that we could not have held this matter back when a noticeable increase was involved. This has a bearing on our ruling and on the statement which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made more than a year ago; and it was necessary for us to refer the matter to the Board.

Will the Minister ensure that there are adequate consultations prior to the publication of any report, since there is to be a reference, so that there will not be a repeat performance of the chaos which followed the conclusions of the P.I.B. on steel prices?

While not accepting the hon. Gentleman's comments in this connection, I remind him that there are always adequate representations. As he knows, the private sector, ship builders and those representing the car industry made representations about steel to the P.I.B. In connection with coal, I have already received representations from the Domestic and Industrial Coal Consumers Councils, the coal distributors and the C.E.G.B.

What is the right hon. Gentleman doing to prevent leapfrogging occurring between coal and steel? Is it not a fact that steel prices have recently risen by almost 10 per cent. and that increases in coal prices are pending? Shall we not, in a few months' time, have a further demand for increased steel prices consequent on the further increased coal prices?

I do not know to what extent I can answer the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question in full because, as usual, he has got his figures wrong. Between 1961 and 1968 the general average increase for steel was 10 per cent.—

What about 1969?

—and the increases which I announced last week averaged 5·2 per cent.

Is it not true that steel prices of our leading competitors have also increased and our increases are by no means excessive?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but I could not pursue that now because this is a question about coal and there are plenty of questions about steel on the Order Paper.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Minister of Power how the present level of coal stocks compares with that of a year ago.

Undistributed stocks are down by more than 5 million tons.

Although we are all glad to hear that figure, could my right hon. Friend explain a little further some of the factors which have brought about that fall in coal stocks?

It is mainly because the Government special support for coal burning in power stations and gas works has already caused an extra 7 million tons of coal to be burned.

Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that there will not be a shortage of domestic coal in the coming winter months because power stations are having to take extra coal owing to the failure of the new modern type of work?

I can give that assurance because production is going up and stocks are still high.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the stocks would have been less if we had been able to persuade Lancashire County Council not to convert 200 schools from coal-fired to oilfired at the cost of two Lancashire pits? Can he persuade more local authorities to use modern methods of solid fuel direct heating?

My hon. Friend is quite correct. There are instances in the heart of coalfields where it is still possible to burn coal and the Government went out of their way to give a direction that in all Government establishments, even if coal is 5 per cent. dearer than oil, coal should be burned.

asked the Minister of Power in view of the Hunt Committee Report, if he will define the precise area of the Yorkshire Coalfield and to what extent it will be treated as continuing into Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire when the areas to receive new assistance are determined.

I must ask my hon. Friend to await the statement on intermediate area boundaries that will shortly be made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Economic Affairs.

Do not the traditional boundaries as observed by the National Coal Board extend into Worksop where there are three collieries, part of the Yorkshire Coalfield, and did not this situation exist long before nationalisation?

That may well be so, but the Hunt Committee was referring to the planning sub-region of the Yorkshire Coalfield and not necessarily to the geological coalfield.

asked the Minister of Power if he is satisfied as to the action being taken to promote coal exports from undistributed stocks; and if he will make a statement.

Yes. Some stock is unsuited or ill-located for export sales, but it may replace other supplies which can then be exported. Undistributed stocks are 5 million tons lower than they were a year ago.

Does the Minister expect that exports in the current year will reach 3 million tons and next year will reach 5 million tons, as forecast in the National Coal Board's accounts, because these figures are considerably above the forecast in the 1967 Fuel White Paper?

I cannot guarantee that those figures will be achieved, but already in the first five months of 1969 1½ million tons of coal have been exported, 60 per cent. more than that exported in the first five months of 1968.

asked the Minister of Power what was the total demand for smokeless fuels last winter; and how this compares with demand in the previous winter.

Domestic demand was up a little at 4¾ million tons.

In view of the continuing decline of gas coke production, are there any plans for increased production of other smokeless fuels?

Yes. Last winter the N.C.B. and private producers stepped up sales by 0·6 million tons and both sectors have major expansion programmes ahead.

The Minister will be aware that there is grave concern about shortages both for the domestic market and for the steel industry. Can he give an assurance that there will be no crisis as a result of the shortages of coke in the coming twelve months?

The Question relates to something more than just coke. There is a wide range of smokeless fuels available. I am confident that the gap left by the phasing out of gas coke will be filled adequately, although there are bound to be from time to time local shortages which will have to be made up by alternative fuels.

The Parliamentary Secretary should not be too complacent about the coke situation. Are there not indications that there might well be later this year grave shortages of metallurgical coke?

The Question relates to smokeless fuels. I have answered that Question and have not concerned myself with a question which did not arise on industrial fuels.

asked the Minister of Power if he will make a statement on the use of colliery waste materials.

An increasing amount of colliery shale is being used in roadway construction, mainly as a result of black shales being now found acceptable as a satisfactory base-fill material. A further notable use has been in construction projects such as the International Hoverport at Pegwell Bay.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say what new uses are being found for these waste materials and whether disposals are increasing or decreasing?

There is a very encouraging development. Where previously these burnt-out spoil heaps could only be used when they consisted of red shales, it is now possible for black shales to be used, and experiments are being carried out with them. Disposal of colliery shales has gone up from a level of about 5 million tons in recent years to 6·7 million tons in 1968–69.

asked the Minister of Power if he will estimate the extra annual consumption of coal for each additional 1 per cent. rate of growth in the gross national product.

This depends on a number of factors, including the composition of the increase, and I do not think that I could usefully offer such an estimate.

Would the Minister not agree that the disposals in coal last year were 6 million tons below the National Plan forecast for 1970? Is it not a fact that if the growth rate between 1960 and 1964, or the National Plan growth rate had been maintained, many colliery closures and redundancies would have been averted?

The hon. Gentleman refers to the gross national product increase. As I say, it depends upon how this is made up. This also applies to the increase in coal consumption. It may be that there may be quite a drive for clean air zones, and there will be extra grants for smokeless fuel. There may be a decision taken to build another coal-fired power station, which would require 4 million tons to 5 million tons of coal a year. There are too many unquantifiables in this.