asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, after the coming into operation of the Children and Young Persons Act, he will issue a circular to local authorities giving advice to them on the use of the ward of court procedure for young persons in care who make undesirable associations as an alternative to committal to an approved school.

I do not think that this would be helpful. The local authority must judge, on all the facts of the individual case, what action is called for in the interests of the young person for whom it is responsible.

While I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, does he not agree that large numbers of people were horrified to find that many young people in approved schools had not committed any crime? In an instance of this nature, would it not be advisable to suggest that it would be much better to take action against the man involved in an undesirable association with a young girl who has not committed any crime, or to make her a ward of court, rather than commit her to an approved school, which is likely to be a stigma in her future life?

As I have explained many times, in these cases the local authority has to balance the question of seeking an approved school order against the possibility that the person concerned will be exposed to very great danger. The question of making such an order as that referred to by my hon. Friend depends also on the attitude of the girl herself. It may be that in certain cases such an order would be appropriate, whereas in others it would be inappropriate.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the apprehension concerning the operation of Clause 1 of the Bill where it is thought that some inequality of treatment might arise between pool children and others? Will he look carefully at Amendments which may come from another place on this?

That is much wider than the original Question, but certainly I do not accept my hon. Friend's hypothesis with regard to that provision.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent the ward of court procedure has been used by local authorities in the last three years as an alternative to committal to approved schools.

If the needs of a child or young person for care or protection appear to a juvenile court to call for residential treatment in an approved school, the courts may order accordingly, and have regularly done so for many years. Such treatment cannot be provided by making the child a ward of court.

Does not that answer reveal that very inadequate use is being made of the ward of court procedure by juvenile court magistrates? Es not that responsible for the fact that there are no fewer than 742 girls in approved schools who have committed no offence whatsoever?

It is not the juvenile court magistrates who decide whether they shall follow this procedure but the local authorities. I understand that there are six or seven cases every year where such an order is made, but normally they are cases where there is the danger of a child or young person being taken out of the country or where, without an order having been made, there is a danger of the natural parents who are estranged actually taking the child back from the physical custody of the local authority.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will seek to amend the Protection of Animals Act so as to prohibit cruelty to all animals, including those not in captivity.

I doubt whether amendment of the Protection of Animals Acts would be appropriate for the purpose which my hon. Friend has in mind; but in any event I can hold out no prospect of legislation being introduced on this subject.

While I thank my hon. Friend for that reply, may I remind him that it is 30 years since we had legislation on animal welfare and about 20 years since the Henderson Committee recommended the sort of proposals contained in the recent Bill presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Whitaker)? Will my hon. Friend also bear in mind that the attitude of people towards hunting and many other activities in connection with animals which are called sports has changed enormously over the last few years and that some of us would like to see the Government take a lead in this direction?

Order. Questions must be reasonably brief.

I would remind my hon. Friend that the legislation to which she refers is for domestic and captive animals. I sympathise with her personal attitude, but probably it would be more appropriate to have individual Bills rather than a collective one which would run into great trouble.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what steps are being taken to assist prisoners, while in prison, to undertake cultural activities such as writing books and for the Press and television, and to develop business activities and contacts in the outside world;

(2) if he will take steps to allow prisoners to undertake and further businesses and part-time jobs in the outside world, with a view to offsetting the costs of the prison service by remuneration from these earnings.

Prisoners are encouraged to undertake literary and other cultural activities, but not allowed to pursue any form of business activity. The hostel scheme enables suitable prisoners to take outside employment towards the end of their sentences, and the steps my right hon. Friend is taking to make prison industries profitable will help to offset the cost of the prison service.

Does my hon. Friend not agree that since a vital part of this process is to rehabilitate and readjust prisoners to outside society, every possible contact should be achieved with that society? Does he accept that in some of the instances that I have brought to his attention prisoners have felt that these contacts and training opportunities are not always available?

The principle of prisons over many centuries is that a person should be withdrawn from society in the hope that he will ultimately be properly rehabilitated. The question of cultural activities is a matter for the governor, in his discretion; he is the one who decides exactly what shall be done in each case. Prisoners are not allowed to profit, save in the exceptional case of the Koestler Award.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many murders known to the police remain unsolved; and how many of these are classified as capital murders.

The latest corrected figure for unsolved murders known to the police in England and Wales from 1957 to 1968 is 186; of these, 35 are estimated to be "capital" offences.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the number of unsolved murders in recent years far exceeds those known to the police before 1964?

No, sir. Statistics do not bear out that statement. I have the figures in front of me. I would point out, as a necessary corrective that must be made, that of these 186 no fewer than 67 are murders of children under the age of one year, which might properly, if they were ever solved, be classed as infanticides.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many murderers have been convicted of offences involving violence during the last five years after their release from prison; and how many have been recalled from licence for offences of this nature.

Since 1st July, 1964, in England and Wales three murderers released on licence have been convicted of further offences of serious violence. All three had their licences revoked.

Do these include the case of the released murderer who was convicted of a serious crime of violence at Winchester Assizes recently under another name? Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that his statistics include cases of murderers who are released and are later convicted under other names?

Yes. I am certain about that. I have not the details of the Winchester case. There have been 116 murderers released on licence, and a close watch is kept on their activities. I think that we are aware of every one of them.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department in what way the procedure adopted for the publication of Command Paper No. 4084 differed from that used for Command Paper No. 9311.

I presented the recent Report of the Boundary Commission for England, by command of Her Majesty, for the information of the House. It is not for me to explain the procedure adopted by a previous administration.

If the right hon. Gentleman will look at the title page of Cmnd. 4084 he will see that it is presented to Parliament by himself. Can he tell us, from a comparison with the report of the Boundary Commission in 1954, where the difference in these title pages lies in order to justify the Attorney-General's claim that one was laid under Section 2(5) of the 1949 Act and the second was not?

I wish that the hon. Gentleman would not press me on these matters. I have no desire to explain the errors committed by the last Administration in presenting these documents.

I appreciate the Home Secretary's reluctance to explain anything in this matter, but is not he aware that precisely the same procedure was followed by him as was followed by the then Home Secretary in 1954?

Yes, I am aware of that. The difference is that I did it correctly and my predecessor, alas, was wrong.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter at an early opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what changes in procedure he has recommended in the light of the case of Ronald Avard.

I can find no grounds for legislation to amend the procedures under the Criminal Procedure (Insanity) Act, 1964 or Section 27 of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1963. While I have found nothing in the circumstances of this case to suggest that the police acted improperly or inconsiderately, I am considering the issue of guidance to the police on the interrogation of suspects who are subnormal.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that this man, with a mental age of seven, spent many hours at Rugby police station before making a totally false confession, which has since cost the Home Office £5,000 in compensation? Is it not logical in a case of a person with a juvenile mind to treat him as a juvenile and to have his parents present from the beginning?

Yes, Sir. As my hon. Friend knows—because it was his persistence which brought the facts to light—the police acted very considerately. They did not take a statement until his father was present. Alas, it was an incorrect statement, and it took my hon. Friend a great deal of diligence, together with others, to reveal that fact. It has now been met quite properly by a payment from the Home Office.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he will announce the results of his review of the desirability of introducing independent inquiries into serious complaints against the police.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he has now reviewed the present system for dealing with complaints by individuals against the police; and what proposals he has for change in view of the burden which is placed on the administrative efficiency of local forces in the time taken to investigate each individual allegation.

I have at present nothing I can add to the answers which I gave on 19th June in reply to Questions and supplementary questions by the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Eldon Griffiths) and my hon. Friends the Members for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Gwilym Roberts) and Staly-bridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn).—[Vol. 785, c. 679–80.]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many responsible members of the police are a good deal more radical than is the Home Office, and that they wish the Government would make some progress in this matter? Does not my right hon. Friend now accept the desira- bility for this in principle, and will he get down to a detailed examination of possible means of implementing it?

It is not always a good way of persuading me to do something to say that someone else wants it done better than I do. Leaving that on one side, I should point out that a number of views have been expressed, including those of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and myself. We have a desire to reconcile the fact that this disciplined service must be supported by the House of Commons with a need for ensuring a proper degree of independent observation, in order to ensure that they are not judges in their own cause.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that complaints against the police are often the last refuge of scoundrels who have no legitimate excuse for the crimes that they have committed? Everybody would subscribe to the idea that serious complaints should be properly investigated, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a great deal of valuable police time is wasted on inquiries which prove to be groundless—time which could be better spent on crime detection?

It is a fact that the majority of complaints against the police come from those with ulterior motives. The House must remember this in considering the facts. On the other hand, a small number of complaints are justified, and every one must be examined, even if it involves spending a great deal of time. I ask the House to keep this matter in balance. We must protect the police who are dealing with criminals against unfounded allegations that can cause them a great deal of pain and waste a great deal of time.

Might it not assist my right hon. Friend if he were to distinguish on the one hand between the right of a chief constable to discipline members of his force and on the other the need for a public watchdog to ensure that all inquiries are carried out in a thoroughly judicial manner?

My hon. Friend is trying to tempt me on to the ground that I shall certainly get on to in looking at this matter. I prefer to reserve my opinion until I have looked into the matter further.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now considered the Arts Council report on censorship; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received the report from the Arts Council working party proposing that the Obscene Publications Act and the comparable sections of the Theatres Act should be repealed for a trial period of five years; and what action he proposes to take in this matter.

I shall study the working party report with care but my present view is that, although there may be defects in the existing law, I shall need a great deal of convincing that repeal of the obscenity laws would be preferable, and I can see no prospect of time being made available for this purpose.

Whatever view one takes, would not my right hon. Friend agree that there is a good deal more emotional opinion on the subject than factual data? Does he not therefore agree that it would be sensible to carry out some research into the question whether certain literature does or does not corrupt anybody, before embarking on legislation?

I should certainly be very happy to see further research carried out into the matter, because I have indicated that I see no prospect of legislation this Session. Certain provisions of the 1964 Act are intended to cover authors, artists and dramatists. To the extent that they succeed in doing so my conclusion is that interference with the freedom of these artists and authors is minimal at present.

Will the Home Secretary recognise that there is widespread concern in the country at the working party report; and that any change in the present law would be widely regarded not as a step towards a more civilised society but as a step further towards an unduly permissive society?

Different views are held on this subject. Everyone should read the report of the working party, be- cause it shows the illogicalities in the existing law. In this matter, I do not want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire. My own view is that, whatever the existing defects, repeal would make the situation worse from the point of view of the average person in the country.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the best control of licence in society is public taste? Will he look with favour upon any individual efforts at legislation which may give more scope to public taste?

If it represented public taste, I would, but I find that a very subjective question. On the whole, matters like taste seem to change from generation to generation.

While expressing myself wholly in sympathy with the view of the Home Secretary, may I ask him to have some regard to the strongly expressed view of 60 of my hon. Friends and myself, and one right hon. Gentleman opposite, in Motion No. 407 on public decency and the Arts Council, placed on the Order Paper of the House during the last three days?

I shall be very happy to read that Motion in due course.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the fact that some local authorities are continuing with changes which will make implementation of the Seebohm Report more difficult, he will now introduce legislation to prevent such changes being put into effect until the Government's decision on the Report has been announced; and if he will hasten to make this announcement.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services stated in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Mr. E. Rowlands) on 14th July, the Government will reach and announce their decisions on the Seebohm Report as soon as possible. Meanwhile, it is unwise for local authorities to take action that might subsequently prove to be incompatible with those decisions.—[Vol. 787, c. 16.]

Will my right hon. Friend consider some reinforcement of the advice he has just given, possibly by the issue of a circular, so that people may anticipate what the Government may do in the matter?

I have sympathy with my hon. Friend's view, but I hope that the Governments decision can be announced in the near future. I took the opportunity of a meeting with local authority associations only this week on another matter to remind them of the opinion I have given the House this afternoon.

Would the Home Secretary accept that the present action by the Association of Child Care Officers in recommending its members not to apply for jobs with local authorities where organisations contrary to Seebohm are being introduced is regrettable and should be forestalled as soon as possible?

I think that the best way of forestalling it is for the Government to announce their decision, but I am aware that opinion amongst child care officers is running very high on this subject, and it is important that we should make a statement. I should like my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security and myself to be able to do so in the next month, at any rate.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to reform the adoption laws.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is now in a position to announce proposals for a review of the law relating to adoption and fostering.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware of the increasing public concern with the operation of the law relating to adoption and fostering; and what steps he proposes to take to protect children from conflicts between their natural parents and foster parents.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he now expects to set up a review of the law relating to adoption; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and I have decided to appoint a committee to consider the law, policy and procedure on the adoption of children and what changes are desirable. The chairman of the committee will be Sir William Houghton. I will, with permission, circulate a list of the members in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

It is our intention that the review should include such issues as whether relatives should be able to apply for guardianship instead of adoption, the relation between adoption law and that part of guardianship law which gives the natural father of an illegitimate child the right to apply for custody, and, in particular, the position of long-term foster parents who wish to keep a child permanently, by adoption or otherwise, against the wishes of the natural parents.

May I say on behalf of hon. Members on both sides how much we welcome the prospect of the appointment of an impartial inquiry to investigate the extremely complex social, legal and emotional problems involved in the adoption laws? Would the right hon. Gentleman, at this stage, commit himself so far in advance as to say that he agrees that in these cases the golden rule to be applied is that the interests of the child should always be paramount?

Yes, Sir. I would accept that view, although I obviously do not wish to commit the committee if it wishes to come to a different conclusion. That has certainly guided me up to the moment.

Will my right hon. Friend give some indication of the committee's method of working? Will it sit in public, take evidence in public, or what?

The Home Office has been collecting information for the last two years through a research body. That information will be made available to the committee. It will be for the committee to decide whether or not it sits in public. It will certainly wish to take evidence of a written character, and it will be for the committee itself to decide whether to take oral evidence.

Can the Home Secretary say when the committee will start its deliberations? Has he any idea when it will report?

I hope that it will start quickly, and as the research team at the Home Office can, as a result of the work that is done, put a lot of information before the committee, I would hope that the committee would not be unduly long in reporting.

I welcome my right hon. Friend's announcement, but will he consider the advisability of making any change in the law retrospective so that some of the existing tragic instances may be reviewed?

I will draw that point to the committee's attention. It will then be for the committee to consider whether or not it wishes to say anything on it.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many motorists were prosecuted for not having valid road fund licences during the past 12 months.

There were 66,264 persons in England and Wales during 1968.

That is not a very great number in relation to licences issued, but it may be the tip of the iceberg. I admit to having driven a car for weeks with an invalid licence, and in that time no one questioned me. Will the Home Office consider either allowing traffic wardens themselves to seek out cases of out-of-date licences, or involving stiffer penalties?

I am sure that the House is grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his candour, and I know that he will applaud the fact that whereas in 1963 32,666 people were prosecuted, practically double that number were prosecuted in 1968.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the G.L.C. has admitted that it has taken as much as two years for it to get cases to court; that then, after two years, only very nominal fines of £5 or £10 have been imposed; and that then some offenders never pay the fine or the licence fee, and so go on for years? Could not more positive action be taken? The present situation is an incentive for some people.

I am glad that my hon Friend has at last appreciated that these prosecutions are for the licensing authorities—the county councils and county borough councils. He will be aware that, on average, the Metropolitan police report about 14,000 of these cases to the licensing authorities every month.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will seek to amend the terms of reference of the Constitutional Commission so as to obtain an interim report or reports within the next 12 months.

No, Sir. But it will be open to the Commission to present an interim report at any time, if it thinks this desirable.

Can my right hon. Friend say how the commission is going, and whether or not it has decided to issue an interim report? In view of prospect of a protracted inquiry, an interim report would seem desirable.

I have not had conversations recently with the chairman, so I am afraid that I cannot answer my hon. Friend's supplementary question. But, if he wishes me to, I will inquire, and let him know.

When the Home Secretary refers to the possibility of an interim report being published, can he say what he envisaged it might cover?

No, Sir. I do not know, in fact, whether the commission intends to present one.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many prosecutions were instituted by persons aggrieved under Section 99 of the Public Health Act, 1936 as amended by Section 1(2)(a) of the Noise Abatement Act, 1960 during the last period of 12 months for which figures are available.

There was none in 1968.

Is not this conclusive evidence that, for reasons of expenditure or otherwise, people are reluctant to avail themselves of this remedy? Is not this a further example of the need to take out of the files the 1963 Report of the Wilson Committee on noise and reissue it.

I do not want to give my hon. Friend the impression that I am unduly unsympathetic, but any change in the law is a question for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

Price asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to enable parents to withdraw their children from religious instruction in approved schools in the same way as they can in other schools.

No, Sir. Wherever practicable, a child is placed in a school of the religious persuasion to which he belongs; and in other cases it would be contrary to the approved schools rules to require a child to receive religious instruction otherwise than in his own faith.

May I thank the Home Secretary for moving the child of one of my constituents from one approved school to another? But does he not think it is unsatisfactory that children under the statutory school-leaving age in approved schools run by some religious authority or another should not have a statutory right to be withdrawn and that the matter is simply left to informal arrangements?

This is the only complaint that I can trace for a very long time. Therefore, I would not feel it necessary to propose amending legislation when, as my hon. Friend has graciously indicated, it is possible to meet the concern by transferring the child.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are the appropriate qualifications for teachers in approved schools; and what percentage of such teachers have these qualifications.

There are no statutory requirements, but 99 per cent. of full-time teachers in approved schools in England and Wales possess the qualifications needed for the status of a qualified teacher.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am somewhat puzzled by that reply? Could he be slightly more specific about the qualifications to which he is referring?

I am referring to the qualifications that a person needs in order to be recognised as a teacher. I am sorry that I cannot find it here, but I promise my hon. Friend that there is a very good definition that I shall be happy to send to him.

Owing to the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on a suitable occasion.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent changes of police personnel have been made in the force seconded to Anguilla.

Since 1st June, 1969, 40 police officers have returned from Anguilla and 48 police officers and one civilian have been posted there.

Can the Minister say whether the police are enjoying this opportunity to indulge in overseas service? Can he say what is now their relationship with the local population, whether the police are training some of the population to do the police job themselves in due course and for how long this will continue?

These are fascinating questions but they are basically questions which fall to the lot of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by virtue of his powers under the Police (Overseas Service) Act, 1945.

Short asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in view of the fact that large quantities of Chinese heroin are being smuggled into the United Kingdom, what action he is taking to locate the point of entry and those responsible for its sale and distribution.

Traffic in this drug seems largely to be centred on London. While I do not accept all the implications of the Question, both the police and the Customs and Excise are fully alert to the dangers, and all possible lines of inquiry are being followed.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is very grave concern at the apparent ease with which large quantities of this disgraceful adulterated drug can be brought into the country, with the tragic effects of which the House is aware? The fact that it is sold apparently at prices about one-quarter of the ordinary price of heroin on the black market makes it even more available to young people, and surely this ought to be a matter of very great concern to the Department? Does my right hon. Friend think that he has enough people in the drug squad, and will he keep an urgent eye on this matter?

I think my whole approach to the subject is known to the House. I am very careful about this matter as some of the reports that have appeared have, on the information available to me—I have questioned the police about this—been exaggerated. There have been this year some seizures of heroin from Hong Kong seamen arriving at London docks, but T. can assure the House that no one is lax about this matter in view of the dreadful consequences which can flow from it.

Arising from what the right hon. Gentleman said about the reports, can he tell us whether we have any international means of discussing this matter with these various quarters?

I suppose it would be possible for us to take the matter up with the Hong Kong authorities and I will consider that, but, on the other hand, I think smuggling by seamen is a traditional venture and it would be one that would be difficult for any authorities to stamp out except by normal police methods.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many immigrants from India, Pakistan and Kenya arrived in this country in May and June, 1969 with a work permit; how many dependants of immigrants arrived in the same period; and how many of either category left this country permanently in the same period, voluntarily or otherwise.

As the reply contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will the hon. Gentleman agree that the figure for dependants coming in during the last two months has been extremely high and that the time has come to take another look at the existing situation to see what can be done to bring down the flow?

What I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that in the first five months of 1969 the number of dependants fell by 20 per cent.

Is my hon. Friend aware that among some of our community relations departments there is a feeling that the Home Office is applying the rules with undue rigour? Will my hon. Friend undertake to look at all applications for entry of immigrants' dependants with his well-known personal sympathy?

I cannot accept my hon. Friend's suggestion. There are rules to be followed. The present Government introduced the Immigration Appeals Act, which will come into force probably in the early part of next year. It is a great liberalising Act in this sense.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what extent the rate of recruiting in the police force is sufficient to meet wastage; and if he will make a statement.

During the first five months of 1969 recruiting in England and Wales has exceeded wastage by 503.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is no problem of recruiting to the police if he will only give permission to chief constables to raise their targets? Is not this the best way to combat the rising crime rate in this country?

I am not wholly sure that the hon. Gentleman is right. If proper standards are to be maintained the police will have to be very competitive to get the recruits they need. They need about 7,500 this year to produce the increase in strength that I want of 2,000. They have got 500 towards the 2,000, so there is plenty of way to go yet.

asked the Secretary State for the Home Department what, studies have been made by his Department to determine the maximum size of a Parliamentary constituency, taking into account population and area, to be represented by one Member of Parliament.

Sufficient guidance is given in the Redistribution of Seats Acts, 1949 and 1958.

Would the right hon. Gentleman tell us what he considers to be the maximum that can be fairly represented in this House and properly served by one Member of Parliament?

It depends on the Member.

I have nothing to add to my hon. Friend's reply.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman repudiate the attack on the criteria that he has just defended coming from the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot) in The Times this morning?

I thought that The Times, for the first time since the controversy began, had a fair and impartial statement of the position by my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consulations he had with outside bodies, individuals or organisations before introducing the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) (No. 2) Bill.

None, Sir.

In view of the recent remarks made about the timing of the implementation of the Redcliffe-Maud proposals by a noble Lady who is a member of that Commission, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would have been sensible to discuss this matter with outside bodies before calling in the Redcliffe-Maud Commission as an excuse to delay redistribution.

I have little doubt that if the programme of the Redcliffe-Maud proposals is carried through—I believe from an examination of the timetable that it would be possible for this to be done in a reasonable period of time—the Bill which I have introduced will be entirely vindicated.

Does not the Home Secretary recognise that the account which he has now described as impartial and correct repudiates the Redcliffe-Maud Report as an excuse for the Bill and attacks the Boundary Commissions' criteria which the right hon. Gentleman has previously defended?

rose—

Order. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale is seeking to reply for the Minister.

Since it is evident that the intervention by the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) misrepresents the letter in today's The Times, will my right hon. Friend arrange for the letter to be printed in full in HANSARD.

Yes, Sir; I undertake to do that as a statement following the answer which I have just given.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the two replies, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter again.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is there any precedent for a letter from a private Member printed in The Times being published in HANSARD by the Home Secretary?

Order. Mr. Speaker would require notice of such an erudite question.

At the end of Questions—

On a point of order. Further to the point of order raised during Question Time by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg), would you, Mr. Speaker, consider giving a Ruling at a suitable opportunity on the circumstances in which Ministers can write into the record the private correspondence or speeches of other hon. Members? would be grateful if my speech on the House of Commons (Redistribution of Seats) (No. 2) Bill in Hexham could be written into the record; it is very different in tone and content from the letter which appears in The Times from the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Michael Foot).

If the right hon. Gentleman can persuade the Home Secretary to write his speech into the record, I am sure the world will be edified. It is for the Home Secretary to decide what quotations he makes in the record. I did advise the right hon. and learned Member for St. Marylebone (Mr. Hogg) some time ago that this was a very erudite question which I would have to have time to consider.

Further to that point of order. May I ask, through you, Mr. Speaker, whether I was right in assuming that the Home Secretary was jesting when he made the suggestion?

I have a shadow of a suspicion of an idea that that might be So.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. While I quite appreciate the sensitivity of the Opposition about the letter to The Times of my hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot), if it would meet with the general convenience of the House I would be delighted to circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Further to that point of order. Mr. Speaker, can you give a Ruling? Is there no limit to what Ministers can have written into the OFFICIAL REPORT, however irrelevant?

I hope the right hon. Gentleman heard what the Home Secretary said. The Home Secretary was saying that if it were the wish of the House—and it is apparently not the wish of the whole House—he would be prepared to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT what he regards as a valuable letter appearing in The Times newspaper.

Vote.

rose —

I understood that the right hon. Gentleman was asking for the wishes of the House. I think that some hon. Members think that it would be a good thing for the letter to be circulated and others think it would be a bad thing.

rose—

Further to that point of order—

Order. I advise hon. Members that I can take only one point of order at a time.

Further to that point of order. Have you not yourself, Mr. Speaker, and previous Speakers, given a Ruling that Ministers are themselves responsible for the replies which they give, and if the Home Secretary feels that it is wise to publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT a reply which he thinks is an answer to the Question, is not he entitled to do so? We have always been told that a Minister is responsible for how he replies and what he puts into HANSARD. If the Home Secretary wishes to do that, is not it with in his powers, and, with great respect to you, Mr. Speaker, that not even you or the House can decide but that it is the Minister who has to decide?

The House will be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his sudden defence of Ministerial powers. The Minister has not indicated that his answer will consist of an extract from one of the morning newspapers.

rose—

Only one point of order at once.

No doubt you will realise that this is a serious matter, Mr. Speaker. I want to ascertain whether there is any question of a Division on this issue. Why should The Times get preferential treatment? Do you realise, Sir, that The Times is obtaining a cheap advertisement from all this discussion? Before the letter is inserted in the OFFICIAL REPORT, I should like to know whether The Times will pay the usual advertising fees.

I think we might get on with the serious business. We have, I imagine, quite a lot of serious business.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that officers of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals travel about the country armed with guns with which they are entitled to shoot animals on the spot; and, in view of the potential danger to the public, whether he will introduce legislation to end this practice.

An officer of the R.S.P.C.A. has no special dispensation from the requirements of the Firearms Act, 1968. He may not possess the humane killers provided by the Society unless he has a firearm certificate, which is granted only if the chief officer of police concerned is satisfied, inter alio, that an applicant can be permitted to have the firearm without danger to the public safety or to the peace. My right hon. Friend sees no need for any new provision.

Is it not slightly disconcerting that several hundred heavy calibre 0·32 weapons are in the hands of inspectors throughout the country? In view of the obvious risk that these weapons might fall into criminal hands, would it not be more sensible if the inspectors were supplied with the relatively safe but effective incapacitating device which many veterinary surgeons use?

The 0·32 calibre Webley and Scott pistols are in the hands of only those inspectors to whom a firearms certificate has been issued. I am not aware that there is any reason to suppose that firearms held by R.S.P.C.A. officers constitute a source of danger to the public.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what conclusions the police research and development branch has reached from its study of the reports from various police forces on the use of hidden television cameras for the prevention of crime in urban communities.

The results so far are inconclusive.

Whatever may be thought about "Big Brother looking on", does not the Minister agree that the fear of being found out deters many criminals, and should not every possible modern gadget be used to try to reduce crime?

The theory proposed by the hon. Gentleman seems sound, but the pattern which emerged from the experiments was in no way a consistent one.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, why no advice has been given to electoral registration officers as to where young persons in full-time education at school or university should be registered.

A memorandum of guidance, dealing with this among other matters, was issued to electoral registration officers on 22nd July. In accordance with my undertaking given on 2nd July, copies have been placed in the Library.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps to ensure that when the electoral register is compiled in October, 1969 all persons in dwellings in multiple occupancy are included.

Form A, the form sent to householders in connection with the canvass for the electoral register, includes a question specifically designed to elicit whether in any promises there are separate households which need to be approached. Attention is specially drawn to this in the memorandum of guidance issued by the Home Office to electoral registration officers.

Multiple occupancy is often a characteristic of student lodgings. Since the qualifying age at elections is now reduced to 18, could not further steps be taken to ensure that a proper, full register is compiled?

I can only advise my hon. Friend that under Section 7 of the 1969 Act it is the general duty of a registration officer to take reasonable steps to obtain information requited by him for the purpose. It is his statutory responsibility.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will obtain a report from the chief constables of police forces in Wales regarding connections between extremist groups and militant organisations there; and if he will make a statement.

Chief constables in Wales are keeping a close watch on, and keeping me informed of, any activities which may result in violence; but it would not be in the public interest for me to say more at present.

There is a great sense of shock in Wales over recent acts of violence and, in particular, the tragic injuries to a small boy. Will my right hon. Friend appreciate that it is becoming a matter of national honour to many Welshmen that the people who are guilty of these outrages should be brought to book and that those who may give aid and comfort to them should be exposed?

Yes, Sir; my hon. Friend expresses the feelings of the people of Wales as I and many others know them. I promise him that no effort will be spared to try to trace the authors of these crimes of violence.

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will issue a deportation order on Professor Ralph Herman Abraham, a visiting American professor at Warwick University, in view of the fact that he was fined £150 by Coventry magistrates for offences under the Dangerous Drugs Act, entailing scooping out a library volume, filling it with cannabis resin and posting it to Western Germany.

When Mr. Abraham was convicted on 8th July, he told the court that he intended to return to the United States in about a month's time. He was not recommended for deportation by the court, and, if he honours his statement of intention I should not find it necessary to make a deportation order.