asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in view of the fact that local authorities have not developed adequate housing programmes and in view of the lack of overall planning in private housing, he will introduce legislation to set up a national housing corporation with overall responsibility for public and private housing and to determine public and private housing targets for local authorities.

There is a good case to be examined for setting up a national housing development agency, but the important thing for the present is for local authorities to be urged to maintain their programmes.

Does not my hon. Friend agree, however, that housing, as a national problem, requires a national solution and that the attitude of some of the Tory-controlled local authorities is one of trying to sabotage the Government's efforts in this field? Does he not agree that it is high time that the Government got tough with some of these slow housing authorities?

I agree that there has been a lamentable cutting back of the housing programme by some local authorities in recent times, and this is a matter which my right hon. Friend may be pursuing with local authorities. The question of a housing agency, such as my hon. Friend suggests, is one which we can consider further.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many houses he now estimates will be completed during the course of 1969.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he will next publish an estimate of the number of houses to be completed in 1969.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is his latest estimate of the total of housing completions for 1969.

The number of dwellings under construction is still at a high level. Since the effect of weather and the strength of market demand in the private sector is variable at this time of the year, it is not possible to forecast how many of them will be brought to completion by 31st December, but completions in the year will not be up to the record figure achieved last year.

Is not that last statement somewhat of an understatement? As in the first eight months of this year 32,000 fewer houses were completed than in 1968, what does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do about this? Will he have a sense of urgency in his housing programme or will he remain complacent, holding to the idea that by 1973 there will be a surplus of houses?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I certainly have a sense of urgency. That is why we have achieved, and shall achieve this year, a much higher figure of completions than the average of 310,000 a year during the last five years of Conservative rule.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this year we shall be well below 100,000 less than the target promised the country by the Prime Minsister? Has the right hon. Gentleman nothing to offer in the face of the ever-declining housing programme both in the number of starts and completions? Does he intend to continue to be complacent like this?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends will give us help in achieving what is required, although I read in The Sun on 6th October that, speaking at a conference in June, the hon. Gentleman said:

"I hope Conservative councils will take great care to resist the temptation to go on building council houses"—

"for all sorts of seemingly good purposes."

Is not the admission which the Minister has just made a sad commentary on the priorities of Socialism? Will he try to appreciate what this housing shortfall will mean in terms of shattered hopes and broken homes?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I am well aware of the urgency and, indeed, of the heart-breaking nature of the housing problem. I hope that he will be comforted by the fact that before the end of this year 2 million houses will have been completed under Labour.

Would not my right hon. Friend agree that the cutting down of council house building proves that Conservatives have their priorities wrong? Is he aware that certain large city councils such as Liverpool City Council are now deciding to bring in smaller house building programmes and are using the excellent 1969 housing Measure as an excuse for taking this step?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for those remarks. He is right in saying that a number of local authorities seem to be falling down on the job. A later Question appears on the Order Paper for today. I am pursuing this matter with the local authorities concerned and I am proposing to see in the near future those which appear to be the most serious backsliders.

Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why the building programmes of even a few Socialist councils are declining?

One reason why I have declined to give a list is because I know that there are particular factors in the case of certain local authorities, including certain Conservative local authorities. I appreciate that there are difficulties in the way of the house building programme, but there are also ideological reasons in some cases for house building being cut down; and I am afraid that those elements are being encouraged by everything that hon. Gentlemen opposite say.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how many homes have been completed in Great Britain this year up to the latest convenient date; and what were the figures for the same period last year.

I refer the right hon. Member to the Answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on 13th October.

How does the right hon. Gentleman, except by adopting his colleague's technique of putting the blame on someone else, reconcile those figures at the end of five years of Labour Government with the unqualified pledges which were given for a great expansion in house building?

I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman was not listening to earlier answers on this subject. The number of houses completed over the last five years has been far in excess of what it was under the Conservative Government. At the moment there are 460,000 houses under construction compared with 434,000 at the end of 1964.

As the Question refers to Great Britain, can my right hon. Friend give us the relevant figure for Scotland?

I am afraid not without notice.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what consultations he has had with local authorities, the Commission for New Towns and other bodies about the Report on the Ownership and Management of Housing in New Towns; and whether he will make a statement about the Government's policy on the recommendations contained in that Report.

We have had discussions with the Commission for New Towns and Development Corporations about the Report's recommendations for increasing opportunities for owner-occupation in new towns. We will also talk with the local authorities. I am not yet in a position to make a further statement on the future of new town assets.

If the Government accept the idea that tenants of new town houses should be permitted to purchase their own homes, why are the Government making it so difficult for this to take place, both by not allowing or by cutting right down local authority housing loans and by charging the full market value for houses when the tenants have been in them for a considerable number of years?

I am very well aware of the difficulties mentioned in the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. The answer to the second part is that the arrangement has been that if a house in the circumstances to which he referred is to go back to the authority who have reserved the right to repurchase, then it goes back at a figure which has been agreed between the tenant and the authority.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government in which areas where there is at present a severe shortage of houses he estimates that there will be a surplus in 1973, the year in which Her Majesty's Government estimate there will be an overspill surplus.

Severe shortages are mainly concentrated in London and other pressure areas. I have not suggested that these can be transformed into adequate surpluses by 1973, because of the condition and distribution of the housing stock there. I intend that, as the housing shortage eases in the country at large, extra resources can be deployed in those areas in which shortages persist and to accelerate slum clearance generally.

As the Government's house building programme is falling behind in both completions and starts, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say where the surpluses will occur in 1973 and where the shortages will occur?

A great deal will, of course, depend on the progress that is made by local authorities in the various areas. In view of the record of some of the local authorities concerned, I am afraid that shortages may persist rather longer than one would have hoped.

Could not the resources that are required in pressure areas best be organised by the establishment of a public building corporation, which could enable the house building programmes of the local authorities concerned to be augmented?

My lion. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary dealt with that matter in answer to an earlier Question, although it is certainly a subject which we shall have to bear in mind.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the average monthly council house rent; what is the monthly mortgage repayment on an average house in owner-occupation; and what were the equivalent figures in 1964.

The latest comparable figures are from the Family Expenditure Survey. Council tenants in England and Wales paid an average monthly rebated rent, excluding service charges, of £6 3s. in 1964 and £7 13s. in 1967. Owner occupiers with mortgages made an average gross monthly payment of £10 7s. in 1964 and £14 0s. in 1967. The net monthly mortgage outgoing will have varied according to the mortgagor's tax liability.

Does not this show a phenomenal rise in the cost of housing? Is there any hope of a decrease or even any hope of keeping the cost of housing stable in the near future? Has the Minister any plans for keeping the cost of housing stable?

The chief way in which, from the point of view of the public sector, we can stabilise costs—this would also have an impact on housing costs across the board—would be to enlarge the programmes at present being cut back, chiefly by people in local councils throughout the country who are friends of the hon. Gentleman.

Can my hon. Friend say how much housing subsidies have increased between 1964 and now, and how many more people are now buying their own homes compared with the number then?

Without notice I cannot give a statistical answer, but there has certainly been a major increase in Government help to local authorities and also a rapid growth in the numbers of owner-occupiers during the last few years throughout the country.

If the Government really want to bring down the cost of housing, would they not consider abolishing S.E.T., and bringing interest rates down to what they were before the Government came into power?

That question should be directed where it belongs, and that is to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But if the hon. Gentleman does not like his nose being rubbed in it, I will repeat that the people chiefly concerned in wrecking housing programmes in different parts of the country are the hon. Gentleman's political colleagues in local government throughout the country.

Can my hon. Friend give the House any indication of the amount of income tax remission being paid in respect of these home purchases?

Not offhand. I believe that when I last had occasion, some years ago, to check the figures, the amount was running nationally at something in the region of £80 million a year, but it is much higher than that today.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what official studies have been undertaken to determine how public sector housing can be made to cater for the needs of those in hardship; and if he will make a statement.

A sub-committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee under the chairmanship of Professor Cullingworth has submitted a report on the purposes, procedures and priorities of council housing. This will be published and sent to local authorities as soon as possible.

Will the Minister, when considering the report, look at the rigidity of the present council house system which leads to much under-occupation which, if cured, could lead to more housing being available to those in dire need?

I have only been made cursorily aware of the contents of the report, having only had 48 hours, but I am sure that the Committee's report on this subject will be wide-ranging. A number of factors are involved. In many instances, the reason for under-occupation is an insufficiency of small units in the communities concerned to which people can move.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there is more under-occupation in the private sector than there is in the public sector?

Yes. And my hon. Friend will recall that the Milner Holland Report confirmed this in respect of London, and other statistical exercises show that this is true of the country at large.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government how long the repayment period is for a 90 per cent. mortgage on a £3,500 house originally for 25 years taken out in 1964, where to meet increased interest rates the option has been taken to prolong repayment.

Building societies differ in the periods which they agree to extend repayments as an alternative to increasing them, but they would hardly permit the same monthly payment as in 1964 to continue because that would not be enough to cover current interest.

Is the Minister aware that the effect is that many people who hoped that when they retired they would have no more mortgage payments now have many years of payments in front of them?

This is true, but it is not the first time that it has happened in the history of mortgage repayments.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he now proposes to seek powers after the end of the present calendar year to interfere with the rents fixed by local authorities for their residential properties; and what form he proposes these powers should take.

This issue is still under consideration but, as my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State said in the Budget debate, restraint in the growth of rents continues to be an integral part of the prices and incomes policy.

As over a month ago the right hon. Gentleman was trying to bully local authorities into acquiescence with the terms of the proposed White Paper, is it not time that he took the House of Commons into his confidence?

We have been having discussions with local authorities as to the best way of implementing the principles laid down by my right hon. Friend. The best thing to do is to await the outcome of those discussions and proposals for any legislative improvements which may be necessary.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that many hon. Members on this side of the House attach great importance to protection being given to council tenants from the vicious vendetta which Conservative councils are now waging against this class of people?

It is the Government's view that it is very important to prevent any unnecessary increases, particularly at a time of economic difficulty.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is satisfied with the operation of the present provisions with regard to the making available of building land by local authorities to housing associations; and if, in order to control excessive charging, he will seek powers to make it obligatory for local authorities to obtain his consent to charges made when leasing or selling land to housing associations.

I am not aware of any general defect in these provisions, but a sub-committee of the Central Housing Advisory Committee is however reconsidering the rôle, structure and finance of housing associations.

Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to consider evidence with which I can supply him that some local authorities are charging as much as 300 per cent. to 1,000 per cent, profit on land sold to housing associations many members of whom have previously been on council waiting lists? If such evidence is prepared in advance of the report by the sub-committee, will the Minister issue a directive to local authorities to reduce such excess charges?

If the hen. Member will let me have the information and ideas he has I will see that his submissions are passed to the sub-committee which is considering this matter.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he is now in a position to make a further statement concerning the payment of Government grants towards the costs of strengthening tower blocks resultant upon the Ronan Point disaster; and to what extent the various municipal associations have agreed with the Government's offer of 40 per cent. towards these costs.

Discussions with the local authority associations are continuing.

I am aware of that, but can my right hon. Friend tell me to what extent he has received any statements from any authorities accepting the proposed suggestion of 40 per cent. which the Government have put forward? Have the Government not been rather niggardly on this matter? Will they not come forward with something better to give some hope to hard-pressed areas such as those of West Ham, East Ham and other parts of East London?

My hon. Friend made this point clearly in debates on the Housing Bill, but it would not be wise to say what transpired between the local authority associations and myself, except that at the last meeting at official level on 26th September considerable progress was made, for example, in regard to items of expenditure which should or should not count for grant aid.

Does not the Minister agree that there are some older local authorities which have been trying with some urgency to see him but the reshuffle may have caused postponement of their visits? Does the Minister also agree that unless local authorities are clear about any decision which might be made to increase the present 40 per cent., possibly by a contribution towards increased rents at the end of the present housing year, this will not help?

I am not aware of any hold-up in proposals of local authorities to see me, but if the hon. Member has any case in mind I shall be glad if he will let me know. I am always willing to see Birmingham City Council whenever that is appropriate. I hope the hon. Member will appreciate that the work is not being held up. We are prepared to give loan sanction and to make advance payments on a 40 per cent. basis without prejudice to any final figure which may be agreed later.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this 40 per cent. grant is having disastrous effects on certain local authorities' building programmes, because authorities such as Salford will retard the programme rate because of the 60 per cent. which they have themselves to meet? We might find Conservative authorities using this as an excuse for not building houses.

I have heard that view put before but I think it is a rather exaggerated view. I believe that the assistance the Government have offered is a just amount in these circumstances.

On a point of order. In view of the last remark of the Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall try to raise this matter again.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will publish a further list of local authorities which have recently cut, or propose to cut, their housing programmes; and what steps he proposes to take to reverse this trend.

As I told my hon. Friend yesterday, I am concerned about these apparent cuts and I am inviting the authorities concerned to discuss their programmes with me.

Will the Minister bring pressure to bear on the guilty councils, particularly by spotlighting significant cuts in such blatant cases as Bradford, Harrow, Ealing, Coventry and Dudley? Secondly, in addition to seeing them, which I appreciate, would he consider taking powers to refuse to allow cuts in special circumstances?

I cannot hold out any hope of further legislation at the moment. I have noted what my hon. Friend has said. We must all appreciate that the situation in all the areas may not be identically the same, but I can say from the Government's point of view that we have not held back the housing programme of a single priority housing authority.

Will my right hon. Friend re-think his last Answer? Will not the cutting of housing programmes be part of the Conservative Party's election gamesmanship? We ought to provide against it for that as well as for social reasons.

I am fully in sympathy with what my hon. Friend has said, particularly as under the Tory Government completions averaged only 310,000 a year.

In view of the Minister's own cut in the overall figure from 500,000 to 400,000, or whatever it may be, does he genuinely want local authorities to increase their housing programmes?

Every priority authority has had full power to build to the maximum of its capacity and will continue to do so.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what changes he has made in policy in respect of appeals coming to him against refusals by Berkshire County Council to permit residential development in certain parts of that county.

My right hon. Friend's policy remains to consider each appeal on its merits.

Will the Minister therefore kindly explain why, in a recent appeal made to him on a substantial development in my constituency, in Charvil, the Minister clearly indicated that, with certain technical points, he would welcome the matter being referred back to him, his policy seeming to be to encourage substantial development in an area which is already expanding very fast?

What I said remains quite true. My right hon. Friend must consider each case on its merits. At the same time, he has to ensure that there is sufficient building land to cater for the requirements in the Home Counties.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he has yet given his consent to the acquisition by the Land Commission of 200 acres of building land at Wokingham.

Acquisitions by the Land Commission do not need my right hon. Friend's consent unless the Commission have to seek his authority to make a compulsory purchase order. They have not so far sought this authority.

I welcome the hon. Member to his new job, in which we intend to roast him if he has to answer for the Land Commission. When an application is made to him in respect of 300 acres adjoining a town which is already expanding at 7 per cent. a year, will he defer to the views of the local authority, who are responsible for the services required to make the houses livable in?

I thank the hon. Member for that qualified welcome, although I regret to note that in matters affecting the Land Commission there will not be that degree of objectivity from the hon. Member and his hon. Friends which we should like to see. In other words, the questions will not be debated on their merits. Certainly the views of the local authorities will be fully taken into account by my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is his forecast of the future level of interest rates on borrowing; and what help will be made available to local authorities who have had to suspend certain capital projects.

As the hon. Member may be aware, it is not the practice of Ministers to make predictions about the future level of interest rates. Local authorities in fact receive very substantial help towards meeting interest charges through the Housing Subsidies Act, 1967, the rate support grants and various specific grants.

Surely the hon. Member is aware of the dismal record of his Government in these matters. Is he not aware that a great element of uncertainty pervades local government and that they do not know where they will be—until they know what will be the next rate support grant? Will he not give very close consideration to this matter, because it is most unfair to many local authorities who at present have capital projects suspended?

I am not aware of the situation which the hon. Member describes. I was drawing attention to the fact that massive help is available under the Housing Subsidies Act—far more help than has ever been given > before under any Administration—and that the contribution from the Exchequer is 56 per cent. of the total local government expenditure.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will make a study of the social effects of reducing the amount of money available for local authority mortgages; and if he will make a statement.

The social effects of local authority mortgage lending come under discussion frequently with the local authority associations, and I see no need for a separate Departmental survey. As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Secretary of State for Wales and I have recently increased by £25 million the overall limit of mortgage lending by local authorities in England and Wales during the current financial year.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that even after that increase it is still £120 million below what it was when the Socialists came to power? Will he promise to restore it in the next year to at least the level that he inherited?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that it was at a very high level during the first four years of Labour Administration. I appreciate the importance of this matter, particularly in respect of older houses, and I have advised local authorities to make money available to those who otherwise would find it difficult to raise mortgages. However, any question of an increase must depend on the progress we make with our economic recovery, and the prospects of this are very good.

Would the right hon. Gentleman take this matter extremely seriously? Is he aware that a local authority in my part of the world, with a population of 10,000, has precisely £11,000 available for mortgages, a very miserable sum indeed when one realises the number of people who are desirous of getting their own homes on mortgage?

We would all agree that it is desirable that the amount should be substantially increased, but within the amount that has been available we have done our best to see that it is distributed fairly between one local authority and another.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the estimated number of persons to have their betterment levy under the Land Commission Act remitted, on the basis that the concessions announced in the Budget are applied to acts or events prior to 5th April, 1969.

About 26,000 persons would have been relieved of liability to levy in whole or in part.

As the Government have admitted that this is unfair to some, why are they not prepared to back-date the position even further?

It is not for me to play the match again, but I appreciate the strong feelings that have been expressed on this subject. I understand that these matters of retrospection were exhaustively examined during the passage of the Finance Act.

Would my hon. Friend agree that no Government reshuffle could be complete without it including the Land Commission? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] When will the Government get rid of this piece of bureaucratic nonsense and substitute a policy designed to take the profits from the friends of hon. Gentlemen opposite and put them into the pockets of those who wish to buy their own homes?

In so far as that supplementary question concerns the machinery of Government, it may be addressed elsewhere. In so far as it is a hard-headed practical question, I cannot be expected, after 48 hours, to pass judgment on it.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government when he expects to introduce legislation to clarify the position of local authorities with regard to coastal pollution.

It is intended to put on a legislative basis the co-operative arrangements which have already been made between local authorities, and for the payment of grants to them. This legislation will be introduced as soon as opportunity permits.

I am very glad to hear that. The hon. Gentleman says that it will be as soon as opportunity permits, but I am sure that he will realise that local authorities are put in grave difficulties while they are left in doubt about what the legislation will be. May I therefore urge him to bring in the legislation as quickly as possible?

I will undertake, in conjunction with the local authority associations, to see what can be done, and let them know our intentions, but the difficulties of programming legislation in the House are, I know, well appreciated by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will introduce regulations to prevent the use of powered sewing machines for business use in residential premises.

No, Sir. There are powers in the Town and Country Planning Acts under which the use of residential premises for industrial purposes may be controlled; and in the Public Health Acts, recently strengthened, to secure the abatement of noise and vibration where this amounts to a statutory nuisance.

I accept that complete prevention would probably cause dislocation in some parts of the clothing trade and that this would be wrong, but can my hon. Friend look at the regulations again in order to see whether they can be made more effective in preventing stress to neighbours where excessively noisy machines are used late at night in shared accommodation and flats, and sometimes in buildings of very flimsy structure, because these places are very inadequate?

If my hon. Friend could show me any breach of the regulations by way of nuisance I should like to look into it. Excessive noise ought to be dealt with under the Public Health Acts.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if, in view of the amount of green belt and agricultural land which has been converted to industrial and housing use in the past five years, he will restate and redefine Her Majesty's Government's policy on the protection of the countryside.

The policy of Her Majesty's Government continues to be the maximum protection of the countryside commensurate with the needs of essential development. In this respect, the recent Countryside Act and the Town and Country Planning Act will enable policy to be effectively applied.

But now that we have six Ministers overseeing the functions of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, does not the Minister think that the time has come to reappraise the whole policy if ever we are to stem the obvious trend towards the abolition of the countryside? Does not the hon. Gentleman feel that the new Department should go into the whole question, with the idea of bringing forward a policy that will work?

If the hon. Gentleman studies, as I am sure he has studied, the two Acts to which I have referred, he will find that they give new powers, particularly in relation to strategic planning, whereby there is a much greater chance of keeping that balance between town and country. But these matters are always being looked at by the Department to see how far we may improve the situation.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will make a further statement on the development of Piccadilly Circus.

Following the public exhibition last year, discussions have been taking place between the developers' architects, the Greater London Council and Westminster City Council with a view to the submission of an application for planning permission.

Is the Minister aware that this place is rapidly becoming a slum, instead of the hub of the Commonwealth as it should be? Can he say when we may expect actual development to start?

I cannot give any estimates. I agree that the delay is unfortunate. Anything that the Department can do to assist in the matter, it is doing.

By way of making an immediate start, cannot the Minister declare the space around Eros a slum clearance area?

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will give an assurance that he will not allow progress to be made with the proposed 600-ft. office block for the National Westminster Bank until his consultations with the local council have been completed and until the matter has been submitted to this House.

Outline planning permission was given by the City Corporation for the redevelopment of this site in 1964. Detailed proposals are now being considered by the City and I am in touch with them. I can assure the hon. Member that a decision will not be taken without my being given an opportunity to consider whether or not to call in the proposals for decision by the Minister.

I thank the Minister for that reply, but will he bear in mind that St. Paul's and its surroundings are of great concern to almost everyone in the country, and, indeed, in the world? Will he undertake to let the House of Commons have the information available to his Department so that we also may have an opportunity of expressing our views on whatever decisions are being taken?

I am not sure that one can create a particular planning procedure only for this particular site, but I agree with the hon. Lady that this is a particularly sensitive spot and that the greatest possible care must be taken about its future development.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what progress has been made regarding holding the public inquiry into the Redbridge Council's proposals for the Town Centre Redevelopment Scheme.

My right hon. Friend is desirous of arranging the inquiry as soon as possible, but must await a submission from the G.L.C. with possible amendments to the proposals before him.

Does not my hon. Friend appreciate the anxieties of people who have been living in this blighted area for quite a long time? The development scheme has been going on for many years, and these people are constantly being fobbed off with one excuse or another. Can he do something to expedite the procedure, perhaps by egging on the authorities concerned, and may I have the assurance that once the inquiry has been held as little delay as possible will follow?

; I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern about this matter and that it has gone on for a very long time. This has been one of the difficulties, particularly before we had the new powers in the 1968 Act, but the G.L.C. hopes to advertise its proposals shortly and we may have them by next month.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will now take steps to appoint an ombudsman to investigate complaints in regard to local government matters in Greater London.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear in his announcement of 22nd July, detailed proposals for extending the ombudsman system into local government will be worked out in consultation with the local authority associations and other bodies concerned and presented in the context of local government reorganisation. My hon. Friend's suggestion will be considered in the course of these consultations.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the large number of cases which have arisen in London, which has already had its local government reorganisation, have clearly established the need for a completely objective ombudsman to deal with complaints against local authorities over the whole area and that in the meantime piecemeal attempts like that of the London Borough of Haringey to appoint its own ombudsman are not satisfactory because inevitably he cannot have the same objectivity?

I have a great deal of sympathy, so has my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, with what my hon. Friend has suggested, but there is a great deal of ground to be cleared and we shall have to have discussions with local authorities before I can give a very firm answer on what she has suggested.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government whether he will introduce legislation to derate tips so long as they are being removed.

Land is liable to rates only when it is beneficially occupied. The commercial extraction of useful material from tips has been held in some cases to be beneficial occupation for this purpose. The effects of rating upon the extraction of shale are under consideration.

Will the Minister bear in mind that many contractors now think that it will not pay them to move these tips—or bings, as they are called in some places—but are they not an eyesore which should be removed?

The hon. Member may like to know that I have met representatives of the industry and asked them for detailed figures so that if a case can be made on economics to do this essential work it may be considered.

Is it not wrong that a Labour Government should be giving grants for the removal of these spoil heaps and then Tory councils should accept those grants and then heap on rateable value for removing them?

Local authorities may have no option when rates are involved. What we have to do is to establish the facts. That is what I am trying to do.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Govern- ment whether he will, through local authorities, establish standards of sanitation on caravan sites and extend the number of temporary places on such sites for the use of holidaymakers.

Questions of sanitation and the acceptable number of caravans per site are controlled by local authorities through site licences. This is a subject of increasing importance, therefore my right hon. Friend has decided to establish a working party to examine these matters and to take account of all the interests involved.

In view of the contribution that these sites can make to the increasing number of holiday-makers, particularly from overseas, may I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply and ask him to consider urging local authorities to do something about this while there is still time?

The point of that question is not lost upon us, but the hon. Member will understand that there are balancing considerations. We think it right to have this looked at and the urgency of having it looked at is something we shall keep very much in mind.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that although local authorities have had power to impose conditions not only in regard to sanitation and other facilities in residential areas since the passing of the Caravan Sites Control of Development Act, 1960, many of them have not exercised their powers and they set a bad example on sites which they own? Will he take steps to get the maximum number of local authorities to exercise these powers and also with a view to making them mandatory?

There is some substance in the first part of the hon. Member's supplementary question, but in view of the principle accepted everywhere about freedom of local authorities to control their own affairs, we felt this to be the right course. We think it better to deal with the matter by having the working party in the first instance.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government if he will make a statement on the form which the public inquiry into the Greater London Development Plan will take.

Precise arrangements for the public inquiry cannot be settled until I have been able to assess the nature and volume of the objections to the Plan. But my hon. Friend can be sure that the fullest opportunity will be given for reviewing the policies and proposals in this important Development Plan.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing scepticism as to whether the money will ever be available for the G.L.C.'s grandiose road schemes and of the increasing opposition there is to these schemes in the areas affected? Can he give an assurance that these road plans will be examined by an independent commission like the Roskill Commission which is at present considering the question of London's third airport?

I repeat that the exact nature of the inquiry must depend upon the extent and nature of the objections that I get to the plan. I think that that is the right policy to adopt at this stage. I appreciate what my hon. Friend says about the scepticism that is felt about it. I must not prejudge the issue upon that. I can give my hon. Friend a full assurance that the economic, the social, and all other aspects will come within the scope of any inquiry.

asked the Minister of Housing and Local Government what is the present staff of the Land Commission; what estimate he has of the amount by which the Land Commission was overstaffed on 1st January this year and is now overstaffed; and what estimate he has of the cost to public funds of this overstaffing.

The staff on 1st October, 1969, was 1,050. On the second part of the Question, I would refer the hon. Member to Appendix I of the Third Report of the Public Accounts Committee 1968–69.

Is the Parliamentary Secretary unable to give an estimate of the amount of money thus lost, or is he assuming that money over-paid in salaries here, if not wasted, would have been wasted somewhere else? In any event, is not this over-staffing in a commission whose affairs in any case are highly dubious, something of a public scandal; and who is responsible for it?

If the hon. Gentleman will do me the courtesy of looking up the information to which I have referred he may find that a good deal of the substance of his question is entirely misplaced.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary expect the staff to go up or down during the coming year?

The staff is continually being reviewed and, with the coming of more sophisticated methods, may well go down.