asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he intends to publish full details concerning the methods of payment of discretionary supplementary benefits.

A handbook, giving comprehensive information about the way the Supplementary Benefits Commission exercises its discretion under the Supplementary Benefits scheme, is in an advanced stage of preparation. It is intended to publish it in the first part of 1970.

How comprehensive is comprehensive? Will it contain all the information giving the discretionary powers exercised by local officials, so that any recipient might understand what he is entitled to?

I think that it will give all that sort of information. It is not the "A" code, which includes a great deal of procedural instructions and could only create confusion. It is primarily designed for social workers and those who will advise claimants, so that they may know the basis on which decisions are taken.

Does the Minister agree that if the "A" code were published in full it is very possible that there would be increasing abuses of the social security system?

I would not like to say that. It would create a great deal of confusion, because it is a detailed administrative memorandum. It would be far less helpful than the document we are to publish.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the effect of his new pension proposals on existing local government pension schemes.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will lay a White Paper setting out the adjustments in public service pensions which will require to be made on the basis that his proposals for National Insurance changes are implemented.

I hope to deal with this subject in a statement to the House on Wednesday, when the White Paper on partial contracting out will be published.

While recognising that there has been a good deal of misrepresentation of my right hon. Friend's case, may I ask him if he will note that there is genuine and understandable worry on the part of local government officers, and will he at the earliest opportunity make it clear that the pension expectation of local government officers is not in jeopardy?

In the last three or four weeks I have met a good number of local government officers, inside and outside town halls. On each occasion I have found that most of their fears could be allayed by a quiet talk with them. One of those fears is the one referred to by my hon. Friend. Those fears are unfounded'.

Will the White Paper or the right hon. Gentleman's statement contain information about the extent to which pension schemes in the public service will, to use the Minister of State's phrase, have to be "cut back" in order to accommodate his scheme?

In my statement 1 shall hope to deal with public service pensions.

As the right hon. Gentleman must know the abatement figures now, can we have a rough estimate of the proportion of people in private occupational schemes who will have their pensions cut back and find it necessary to leave the schemes?

That is the kind of point which the noble Lord should put to me on Wednesday.

asked the Secretary of State for Social whether he will increase the retirement pension to keep up with the cost of living increase.

As I think the hon. Member knows, this is the Government's purpose in increasing retirement pensions this week.

How are the Government able to assess whether the increase will be adequate to the rise in the cost of living, as there is no cost of living index for Scotland, where fuel and food prices are higher? Both commodities are essential for old people. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that old-age pensioners in Scotland do not share his confidence?

The retail price index covers the whole country, and the intention of the increases this week was to restore the purchasing power of the pension to what it was two years ago. To do that, we would require not 10s. but 9s. 5d. for the individual, and not 16s. but 15s. 3d. for the married couple.

Is my hon. Friend aware that hundreds of thousands of old folk who thought that this week they would get an increase find that they have got only half of it? While we in this House know that they have already had part of it in terms of supplementary benefits, old people do not understand it. In future, cannot the two lots of increases be introduced at the same time?

We have sought to make it clear that recipients of supplementary benefits received an increase last October. Therefore, they are receiving the second half of the increase, which, in the case of National Insurance recipients, covers a two-year period. To bring it in line with National Insurance benefits we could raise supplementary benefits only every two years, which would be hard on the people concerned. That is why we brought in half the increase last October to deal with the rise in the cost of living up to then.

When the Minister goes on television tonight, will he also mention the increases in contributions?

Yes, and also the issue on which my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mr. William Price) raises the point about supplementary benefits.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now make a statement as to the result of his discussions with the organisations concerned with pension funds about conditions of abatement under his pensions plan.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what consideration he has given to representations on occupational pension schemes ; and when he expects to be able to place substantive proposals before the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will now announce the results of his discussion with occupational and public service pension schemes concerning abatement.

I expect to make a statement on this subject on Wednesday when a White Paper will be published.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say now whether he gave any assurances to those with whom he had discussions that if abatement proved attractive and a good many schemes were abated out, that would not be used as a reason for tightening up on the terms to protect the finances of the scheme?

Yes, Sir.

In view of the widespread misrepresentations on the subject by, among others, right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite, will my right hon. Friend make sure that his statement or the White Paper allays once and for all the genuine anxieties of a number of members of existing occupational schemes?

My hon. Friend had better await the contents of the statement, which I will not anticipate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the logic of many of his recent arguments on occupational pension schemes means a State monopoly in pensions? Will the White Paper have the agreement of the representatives of occupational pension schemes?

We must wait for the Write Paper. I would have thought that the statement that I am seeking a State monopoly on pensions was almost the exact opposite of the truth. I am seeking a fruitful partnership between occupational and State pensions.

There is no need to wait until Wednesday to answer the question: "Is it agreed with the representatives of occupational pension schemes?". The answer is "yes" or "no".

One should try hard, but that is a feeble line for an Opposition Front Bench spokesman.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what representations he has received from the National Association of Local Government Officers concerning his proposed pension arrangements and reform ; and what reply he has given to the National Association of Local Government Officers concerning its Association's existing occupational pension scheme and its future.

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my reply to a similar Question by the right hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) on 20th October.—[Vol. 788. c. 739-41.]

Yes, but that was in the last Session, and anyway it was a rotten answer. Would the right hon. Gentleman now apply himself to this simple proposition? Will he give the House an assurance that after the introduction of his much-vaunted national pension scheme no local government officer will be worse off as a result of the removal of part or the whole of his entitlements under his occupational pension scheme, which has been built up over the last three decades?

I have repeatedly said that there is no question of removing existing rights. As for the rest of the question, the hon. Gentleman had better wait until Wednesday.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services why he proposes in his new pension scheme to pay more from the Exchequer to those who earn more than those who earn less.

No such proposal has been made.

Does it not state in the White Paper on the national superannuation scheme that the Exchequer contribution to the pension scheme will remain at 18 per cent.? Since the rich, the higher paid, are to receive higher pensions than the lower paid, is it not self-evident that the Exchequer contribution to their pension will be higher than the same contribution to the poor?

By no means. Those who pay higher contributions will get more in benefits. They will be contributing to their own higher level of pension provision. The situation will be almost the reverse of what the hon. Gentleman states, because one of the cases for an Exchequer contribution to the new scheme roughly on the same proportion as the present scheme is the redistributive element by which lower paid workers will get a higher proportion of their earnings as pension than higher paid workers.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what consultations he has held with trade unions and other bodies representing employees in occupational pension schemes regarding his proposed national superannuation scheme.

My main channel of consultation with employees' representatives has been the T.U.C. Meetings have also been held with representatives of the National Association of Local Government Officers and the National Federation of Professional Workers.

If we are right in assuming from the right hon. Gentleman's Answers this afternoon that he has not got agreement from the representative bodies to his scheme, does this not indicate that they have resisted his proposals very strongly, and will he force, or has he already forced, them to accept them against their will?

I am not sure that there is any relationship between the supplementary and the original Question.

In preparing his statement for Wednesday, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, in addition to local government officers, there is great and genuine anxiety among the police and firemen and that it is urgently necessary to reassure these people, in particular, concerning their future prospects?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that suggestion, to which I had given some thought before it was made.

May I ask my right hon. Friend whether his statement on Wednesday will include specific reference to the representations that he has received from the National Association of Local Government Officers?

I think that we had better await the actual text of the statement. If my hon. Friend wishes to put such points to me, no doubt, if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, he will be able to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what research he intends to undertake to establish whether or not benefit in return for contributions is what the people of Great Britain desire.

I do not consider that any such research is necessary.

The right hon. Gentleman is bringing forward a superannuation scheme so complicated that nobody will understand it, which will entail the keeping of individual records for over 40 years in many cases, and in which no worker will know the amount of his pension until the day that he draws it. Does the right hon. Gentleman feel no obligation to discover whether the people of this country would like a simpler scheme which would lead to an adequate flat-rate pension for everybody within the foreseeable future?

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, no one can foresee what the flat-rate level will be before it materialises. As for the question of earnings relation, I do not think that any more research is necessary because of the pioneer work done by the private occupational pension schemes.I am surprised that this Question comes from the Opposition. Everybody has been telling me of the virtues of earnings relation, and that, surely, is undisputed between the two sides.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, whatever he says on Wednesday, if it appears to us that the scheme is designed to, and will, harm occupational pensions schemes we, when we return to office, will alter it to encourage occupational pension schemes?

I am aware that the Opposition Front Bench, perhaps wisely, has decided to wait month after month before making up its mind and may conceivably make up its mind on Wednesday afternoon.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will discontinue the payment of weekly 6d. pensions in cases where the recipient is in receipt of no other pensions.

There is a clear obligation to pay the benefits earned by the contributions to the graduated scheme. Graduated pensions of 3s. or less a week are commuted if it is clear that there is no prospective title to a flat-rate retirement pension with which they could be paid. Where, as an interim measure, 6d. pensions have to be paid by themselves pending eventual title to a larger pension they are paid monthly, as I explained in answer to the hon. Member's Question on 20th October.—[Vol. 788, c. 152.]

Does my hon. Friend realise that many of the 2,000 people whose only pension is 6d. a week think that the Government are playing an elaborate practical joke on them? As it would cost only £200 a year to raise the minimum pension to 2s., would it not be better to do that? Would it not la:, less derisory and also make the expenditure of 9s. a year for issuing each 6d. pension more worth while in terms of administration?

My hon. Friend should make his criticisms to the right hon. Gentleman who introduced what he calls a practical joke and what I call a swindle.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether, in order to check abuses of supplementary benefits, he will now appoint an investigating officer to examine possible cases of fraud in each of the 400 offices where supplementary benefits are paid out.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many of the supplementary benefit offices have special investigating officers attached.

Arrangements to check abuse, including inquiries into suspected fraud, are an important part of the normal work of every local office. Cases of special difficulty are referred to investigators who work under the control of the regional offices. There would be no justification for a special investigator in every local office, but the numbers of these investigators have been substantially increased.

In view of the growing evidence of fraudulent claims produced to hon. Members and the Press, is this not a sign of a mounting public scandal for which the Government are responsible? Should there not now be provided an investigating officer, with experience, attached to every one of these 400 offices?

I do not think it is true that there is growing evidence. It is certainly true that certain organs of the Press have taken up this subject and picked upon particular cases that may have given a very wrong impression. The hon. Gentleman refers to the Press ; he released a letter to the Press which he had received a short time ago. From what I read in the Press I would not have known that the man concerned was disabled, which may very much change the circumstances. The Government are very vigilant in these matters and take increasing care to see that those who seek to exploit our State provisions are brought to book.

Can my hon. Friend say whether the instructions given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), when she was Minister, to the Supplementary Benefits Commission in, I think, July, 1968, still operate, because they represented a considerable stiffening of the investigation procedure?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. This was a very important step forward introduced by my right hon. Friend. It took effect from last October when single men aged 45 and under in areas where there was employment were told that they could have benefit for up to four weeks but that they were then expected to find work. It is interesting that since October there has been a total of 80,000 young people who have been put on this basis with outstanding success. This is one of a number of ways in which my Department is dealing with this question.

Would the hon. Gentleman agree that in so far as there is abuse it does damage the social services and could well mean that innocent people suffer in that they do not get the benefit required? Can he say how many special investigators there are so that the public can be reassured that wherever there is a case of abuse it is dealt with promptly?

I have to point out that the special investigators are not the only people dealing with allegations of fraud. They are for very special cases requiring special examination. There is now a complement of 206. There are still a few vacancies. We have not gone up to the full 206. We have to remember that these allegations, particularly when publicly made, reflect discredit upon the system. Therefore, it is most important that we should recognise not only that authority is concerned with this and handling it but that these cases are a very small minority indeed and that the vast proportion of our resources is given to those in genuine need—the old, the sick, the disabled, the deserted family.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he has now received all the evidence he requires on which to make a statement on the implementation of the Seebohm Committee Report.

Not quite yet. I would refer my hon. Friend to what was said by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 28th October about the Government's intention to legislate on matters arising out of this Report.—[Vol. 790, c. 31-3.]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend will appreciate that there was great excitement when the initial announcement was made in the Queen's Speech. Will he now say, very briefly, which Government Department will be responsible for co-ordinating and operating the service as presented by Seebohm? This is a simple but nevertheless essential question.

That is a matter for later consideration. The Prime Minister explained how the Home Secretary and I, jointly, would conduct the Bill through the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will seek to amend the family allowance regulations so that young persons serving in the Voluntary Service Overseas Scheme are treated as receiving full-time education or as low-earning apprentices.

Family allowances are a benefit for dependent children. Young people working for Voluntary Service Overseas or other bodies in the British Volunteer Programme would not normally qualify. The circumstances of the young lady whose case my hon. Friend recently raised with me are rather unusual and steps are being taken to arrange for a formal decision to be given on her mother's family allowances entitlement.

Yes. But is my hon. Friend aware that if a young person is in full-time education or is in a low-earning apprenticeship, he is qualified to come within the family allowance regulations, whereas a young person doing this valuable voluntary service overseas falls between two stools?

This is true. The family allowance is intended for dependent children, and this includes those who are either apprentices or in full-time education. The circumstances concerning voluntary service overseas are different. In the vast majority of cases those taking part in voluntary service overseas are serving overseas, where family allowances are not available. But, as I have said, I will look into the case to which my hon. Friend referred.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether, in view of the confusion surrounding means-tested benefits, especially among low-paid workers, he will take further action to increase family allowances.

We have at present no plans to increase family allowances.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that a combination of increased allowances and claw-back under income tax is the best, most selective way of helping those most in need? Will lie keep this under constant review, and bear in mind the great difficulty that many people have in dealing with the problem of supplementary benefits?

I entirely share my hon. Friend's view. I think that the decision nol: only to increase family allowances—and there was the increase last year of 10s.—but also to do so by claw-back, and therefore to ensure that it went to those who need it, was a considerable step forward, which I notice the Leader of the Opposition, in an article in the Sunday Times, seemed not to realise had happened.

Has the Minister given any consideration to the possibility of abolishing family allowances and replacing them with a negative income tax system?

This subject has been under review, but the arguments against are very powerful, and I can tell the hon. Gentleman that there is no such intention.

Does my hon. Friend agree that as the Chancellor is not prepared to extend the claw-back to the whole family allowance, and that as there is widespread, if ill-informed, prejudice against family allowances, there is a case for starting a study of the way family allowances should go in the future, along the lines mentioned by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Fortescue)?

As I told the hon. Gentleman, this is a subject at which we have been looking from the point of view of negative income tax, but I think that the family allowance approach is the most effective means that we have of directly bringing help to those families with a considerable number of children where there is a small income. On the claw-back technique, I do not believe that there is now as much misunderstanding as there was. I think that on the whole families have come to accept the advantage of the decision that we took last year.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the provision of aid for the non-industrially disabled.

The Government's proposals for earnings-related sickness benefit and invalidity pension and for an attendance allowance for the very severely disabled were set out in the White Paper published last July (Cmnd. 4124). For further details, I would ask the hon. Member to await the forthcoming Bill announced in the Queen's Speech.

Is not the immediate and pressing need the provision of an allowance for the non-industrially disabled equivalent to the present retirement pension?

This is a very important decision that we have taken to introduce this attendance allowance. It recognises that there is a need which our present social security provisions do not meet. The allowance when it comes into operation, and when it is presented in the Bill, will be seen as a very considerable step forward in the way in which our society accepts responsibility for the disabled people who are neither war disabled nor industrially injured.

Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that the proposed allowance will help only a very tiny proportion of the civilian disabled?

It will not help all those who are disabled, because this is an enormous job. It will be limited to those who are very severely disabled on whose families the responsibility for looking atfer them is heaviest.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans his Department has for abolishing the charges for welfare foods, such as milk and orange juice.

None, Sir.

I know that my hon. Friend feels very strongly about this matter, and I was hoping to hear from him that some funds might be available so that it could be reviewed. In the very young age group, particularly in constituencies like mine, there is a great deal of distress, and I ask my hon. Friend to look urgently at the matter again.

There has not been any increase in charges for welfare foods since 1961, with the exception of the price of welfare milk, which went up from 4d. to 6d. a pint last year. The increase in the price of welfare milk did not have any significant effect on the up-take. If new evidence comes before us we shall look at it, but at the moment I do not think that there is anything further that I can usefully say.

Can my hon. Friend say why he has changed his mind? I ask my hon. Friend to look not into the crystal ball but into the past before he gives his answer.

I do not think that I want to go into the past too much. Welfare food is not an issue on which I have ever felt particularly strongly. I do not support that view.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what study his Department has made of the role of voluntary help in the provision of health and welfare services.

We have recently been able to assist a voluntary body in mounting a study of great interest to the statutory services and hope increasingly to be able to help others who wish to undertake research of value to the services.

Is it not clear that increasingly we shall have to fall back on calls for more voluntary effort if we are to solve the social problems which now confront us? While the Seebohm Report is being dealt with will the hon. Gentleman bear that fact in mind?

Rather than using the words "fall back on voluntary effort "I would prefer to say that there is a large and so on, should we not mention our viding a great deal of help to the community. It is in this area that very much more work can be done. My Department will be happy to help any voluntary body which is trying to do this.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will seek to amend the regulations governing the grant of war disability pensions so as to remove from a claimant any onus of proving the claim which at present rests upon him in a case where relevant documents which could throw light on the claim are lost by a Government Department.

No, Sir. There is no onus on the claimant unless his claim is made more than seven years after his service ended. Even then, he is given the benefit of any reasonable doubt, and there is provision for accepting reliable corroborative evidence where documents have been lost.

In the case that I have brought to the attention of the Ministry one cannot exclude the possibility that the service records—had they not been lost—would have established Mr. Cain's right to a pension? That being so, will my hon. Friend look into the matter again and reconsider the possibility of seeing that justice is done to this man and that the regulations are amended?

As my hon. Friend knows, the question to which he now refers was not only carefully considered within my Department but was referred to the Parliamentary Commissioner, who investigated the case with the care that he always shows and found no evidence on which to criticise the way in which my Department does its work.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what allowance is made by his local officials to old-age pensioners living alone to assist in the payment of the television licence.

As was explained to my hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland (Mr. Tinn) on 3rd March, the cost of television licences is included in the index to retail prices, which is taken into account in determining supplementary benefit scale rates. As my hon. Friend will know, these scale rates are being increased this week.—[Vol. 779, c. 14-15.]

Will my hon. Friend consider the fact that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications told me on 16th October that in making supplementary payments the actual cost of a television licence for pensioners living alone is taken into account? That is completely different from the reply that my hon. Friend has just given me. Will he re-establish communications with the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, which appear to have broken down?

With respect, if my hon. Friend will look again at my reply he will see that there is no inconsistency between what I have said and what my right hon. Friend said. I would remind him that the real value of the new scale rates is about 24 per cent. higher than the rates in force in October, 1964.

Does not my hon. Friend recognise that in the public mind and in the mind of the pensioner who has not been fortunate enough to obtain a certain category of local authority accommodation for pensioners there is very bitter feeling about the fact that those who have such accommodation have gained a privilege which that individual is not conscious of receiving himself? Cannot my hon. Friend, in consultation with the Post Office, do something to remedy this anomaly?

The concession to which my hon. Friend refers is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. However, I must remind my hon. Friend once again. The rates of supplementary benefit have risen considerably to cover precisely this kind of item since this Government took over.

Could we be told whether the amount which is taken into account in regard to television licences on the supplementary benefit scale is the one shilling which is paid by old-age pensioners who live in local authority homes as opposed to the full rate paid by old-age pensioners in private homes? Will the hon. Gentleman hold discussions with his right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs to iron out those anomalies?

The hon. Member must bear in mind that the rise in supplementary benefits in recent years has taken us far beyond the position of providing merely subsistence income. It is not possible to break down the payments into component parts, since people's spending habits vary widely.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what further representations he has had in the last month concerning the inadequacy of the meal allowance of £48 per annum payable to nurses, in view of the fact that it is regarded as taxable income.

None, Sir.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that is very surprising? Does not he find it intolerable that the militancy of people like dustmen, firemen and coal miners can obtain for them far in excess of the 31 per cent. laid down by the Government in their incomes policy, but because the nurses cannot or will not exercise that kind of militancy they must be kept strictly within the 31 per cent. Will he give an assurance that he is urgently reconsidering this matter?

That is a very different question. I was asked about the £48 increase made with regard to a specific complaint by the young student nurses, a complaint which was met and that was appreciated. A new wage claim is being initiated. I am glad that the nurses are responsibly working for a claim which is expected to be announced in February, rather than rushing into violent action.

Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that this amount is very similar to the untaxable 3s. a day allowed to any typist? What plans has he for ending what is probably regarded as the unfairest anomaly of all?

I do not agree. This was a specific extra amount of money that it was felt student nurses needed for their special meals allowance. This does not apply to typists.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of those answers, I beg to give notice that I will raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services in what form and when the new meal allowances at £48 per annum are to be paid to nurses, and whether on a daily, weekly, monthly, or annual basis in cash, or in kind, by vouchers or otherwise ; and whether he will make a statement.

This allowance is already being paid to the appropriate nurses where meals are paid for as taken. It is paid in cash, monthly or weekly according to local pay arrangements.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that any woman obtaining a job in an establishment which does not have a canteen and who has, in lieu of a canteen meal, a luncheon voucher obtains the voucher free of tax at a maximum rate of 3s. per day? Would he not agree to concede the same point to student nurses, to afford them at least parity with all other occupations of a roughly equivalent kind?

I would not take that assumption of equivalent occupations altogether for granted. The reason why vouchers were not given was that the Whitley Council agreed to a cash payment, because vouchers would have been more difficult to absorb into the basic pay in due course as is intended.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that last week a Treasury Minister admitted that there was an anomaly in this situation? Since my right hon. Friend has a responsibility to protect the nurses, will he say what representations he has made to the Treasury to remove the anomaly?

If my hon. Friend would read the second part of my answer to the previous Question he will find that I have answered him, too.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I will seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is aware that the medical staff to patient ratios in the Warley and Runwell psychiatric hospitals in Essex are 1·08 and 1·76 respectively, compared to Oxford where it is 2·75 ; and what plans he has to rectify this position.

Yes, Sir. These are the ratios per hundred in-patients. The national average is 1·49. The ratio of medical staff to in-patients is not a reliable indicator of the standard of psychiatric hospital care.

Would my hon. Friend not agree that a common theme of the reports and inquiries on the mental health service is the highlighting of the importance of the staff-patient ratio? I repeat, therefore, what sort of help and advice can he give to these two very fine hospitals, which, I maintain, are still under-staffed?

I accept what my hon. Friend says, but he must remember that certain psychiatric forms of treatment require a very much higher number of skilled medical staff than do other sorts. This explains some of the differences. In this case the management committee has applied to the board to appoint further medical staff. This is under consideration and if the board proposes this to my Department, we will consider it very seriously.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will make a statement on the neurological services available for road accident victims in Southern Hampshire suffering from severe head injuries.

The neurological and neurosurgery centre providing specialist treatment for this area is at Southampton General Hospital. Neurological and neurosurgical services are available to all major accident and emergency departments.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that there are no services whatsoever in the City of Portsmouth and that there is widespread concern in Southern Hampshire at the long distances in overcrowded traffic conditions that critical cases may have to travel before appropriate treatment becomes available?

There is a major accident and emergency department at the Royal Portsmouth Hospital. As my hon. Friend will realise, it just is not practicable, nor in the interests of medical efficiency, to provide neurosurgical units more frequently than at somewhat greater distances than major accident centres. In our view, the arrangements for this area provide an adequate service to the general public.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what has been the official establishment of hospital pharmacists in each of the past five years; what has been the actual strength in the same years; and what are the estimates for the current year.

The information is not available. Individual hospital authorities have staffing complements for hospital pharmacists but these are not fixed centrally.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the shortage has been adversely affecting the efficiency of the hospital service and that it is highly distressing that a career in the sale of cosmetics should be more attractive to a qualified pharmacist than a career in the essential hospital service?

I agree that there are real problem in this sphere. As my hon. Friend probably knows, a working party, under the chairmanship of Sir Noel Hall, is looking into the whole matter and it is expected to report early next year. I think we should wait for its report.

It the figures for these essential professional people are not available centrally to the hon. Gentleman's Department, how can that Department tell whether the services are likely to break down or not?

We are in contact with the departments in different parts of the country through the regional hospital boards, but the individual hospital authorities should, quite rightly, be given a degree of freedom in the staffing of these units. This is the position today.

Does the hon. Gentleman really mean that he does not know how short of pharmacists any hospital or group of hospitals is? Surely he ought to know that, and know what to do about it.

I did not say that. We do know. I said that we do not carry all the information for the whole country, but we know of particular problems in particular areas through our contacts at regional hospital board level.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will take action to encourage contacts such as visits and outings between the community and hospitals for the mentally handicapped.

Most certainly. The many individuals and members of local and voluntary organisations who already help in this way perform a most valuable service for these patients.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that more should be done to encourage the families of mentally handicapped patients to visit those patients in hospital because of the known beneficial effect of such visits? In particular, should not the parents of mentally handicapped children consider taking children back into the family circle, rather than leaving them in hospital.

Where it is possible for children to leave hospital, we want them to do so. I agree that we should do all that we can. We do a great deal to encourage families to visit their relations in hospital. We want to throw the doors of these hospitals open to the public as a whole. I think that in this connection hon. Members on both sides of the House could probably fulfil a useful function in their own areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what consultations he has had concerning the condition of mental hospitals in this country ; and if he will make a statement.

I have discussed many aspects of this subject with representatives of hospital authorities and staff and with other bodies and individuals.

Can the Minister say whether or not arrangements can be made for more voluntary services to be taken up in this field, especially in respect of mental homes, which are now making a valuable contribution?

Yes, but I would add that whenever I go round the country I am struck by the extent of the existing voluntary organisations and the invaluable work that they are doing. Everything that the Ministry is doing has the object of trying to make it easier for them and to make easier the access to hospitals through the appointment of organisers, which is important, and on which we have recently advised hospitals.

In view of the increasing evidence of more efficient methods of treating many categories of mental patient now being adopted in smaller hospitals, can my right hon. Friend say whether in the near future he will be able to make a statement showing that he has given serious consideration to this policy?

I am not quite sure to what policy my hon. Friend refers. In psychiatric hospitals—to which I think he is referring there has been a tremendous break-through in the last four or five years, and all the new methods are being used. Unfortunately, in hospitals for subnormality there is much less availability of treatment at present and I hope that more medical attention will be given to this so that more progress can be made in that area.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about subnormality, but is he aware that his own departmental projections until 1972/73 showed that only 4·7 per cent. of all capital building project starts during that time was being devoted to subnormality hospitals? Will he increase this proportion?

I am seriously considering this and I hope in the new year to publish a fully considered statement on the whole treatment of the subnormality problem. I cannot commit myself before that. I take the view that part of the solution is to be found in a great expansion of community services outside hospitals. It is the right balance between the spending inside and outside which is important. I do not want to rush people into building new subnormality hospitals when they may not be the right solution.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if, in view of the high administrative costs in checking claims for free prescriptions, the difficulties facing the low-paid worker as shown by the survey of post offices in the Greater Manchester area, and the minimal revenue the charges have yielded, he will abolish these charges.

No, Sir. I will send my hon. Friend a copy of my letter to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Wythenshawe (Mr. Alfred Morris) about the availability of leaflets in post offices in Manchester.

Does my hon. Friend now regard these prescription charges as temporary? If so, how temporary? Since 87 out of 203 post offices in that typical area of Greater Manchester could not produce the correct forms for low-paid workers, is not this an additional argument for abolishing the charges, as the Labour Party conference has twice asked?

I am informed that the Post Office inquiries in the Manchester area and subsequently throughout the North-West Region revealed no case in which the postmaster did not know of the forms in question and their use, nor any instance of those forms not being available. I do not think that I can look into the glass bowl and foretell the future at this stage.

Will not the hon. Gentleman answer the first part of the supplementary question put to him by the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun)? Is the imposition of these charges a temporary measure? If so, for how long will they be imposed?

Perhaps the hon. and gallant Gentleman did not hear what I said in reply to my hon. Friend. I said that I could not look into the future in that way.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will publish the figures relating to immigrant births in his next quarterly return.

The Registrar General informs me that he intends to publish some figures at the first opportunity but that information may not be available in time for his next Quarterly Return.

As research indicates that in the West Midlands at least the birthrate among immigrant families is falling, is it not essential to publish this information and so spike the guns of these who would use it to stir up political unrest?

I think that it is important that we should have this information. A number of changes were made in the birth registration form as from 1st April of this year. Obviously it will take time before this information can be published, but I assure my hon. Friend that this will be done.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he intends to take to ensure that all women who need it are able to receive family planning advice.

As I have made clear on many occasions, I am taking every opportunity open to me to develop family planning services under the National Health Service.

Will my right hon. Friend, therefore, request all local authorities to introduce family planning clinics, and will he make sure that this information is available in all hospitals under the National Health Service and controlled by him?

Every local authority has been told of our urgent request that it should do so and, with one exception, every one has provided a service of a kind. As for hospitals, I regard this as an important issue, and I hope to take action on it in the near future.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether the proposed expansion of mental health care will involve a transference from the present funds of the regional hospital boards.

The extra money being devoted to hospitals for mentally handicapped this year represents a reallocation of resources by regional hospital boards. I have also urged them to review their expenditure on all long-stay hospitals, including geriatric and psychiatric, to see that they are getting their fair share.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say to what extent this reallocation is leading to a slowing-down of development in other ways, and, in some districts, to the closing of beds?

There is no evidence of the closing of beds or of a slowing-down. I hope that the regional hospital boards, which have large sums of money at their disposal, are able to make economies in other areas and so make more money available in these high priority areas.

In view of the desire to improve the quality and standard of treatment at mental hospitals, will my right hon. Friend look urgently at the pay of doctors who stand by in the evenings and at weekends? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great dissatisfaction about pay amongst many sections of doctors which is causing a disinclination on the part of general practitioners to perform this very important duty?

1 will look at that point. However, I do not think that in my peregrinations this problem, which is general among general practitioners, has been called to my attention in relation to long-stay hospitals.

Does that reply mean that no extra resources will be provided? If it does, contrary to the right hon. Gentleman's reply to me earlier, some hospital building schemes will be cut back.

It does not mean that no extra funds will be provided.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he expects to introduce legislation to discourage cigarette smoking.

Not this Session.

In view of the circumstance that the right hon. Gentleman's Department indicates that more than 50,000 people are killed per year by cigarette smoking, would he at least during this Session commence some preliminary work in introducing legislation so that it can be brought in after the next election?

We have been very seriously considering the basis of legislation and whether legislation against advertising is the most effective. Meanwhile I have asked the Health Education Council to concentrate its activity this year in the first place upon an antismoking campaign, which I think has begun, on the hoardings, and which will last for three months. We will assess the results of this campaign very carefully before spending further money.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many persons in England and Wales suffer from industrial deafness ; and if he will now include this condition as a prescribed industrial disease.

I regret that the information requested in the first part of the Question is not available.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there are many thousands of people in their fifties and sixties suffering from a disease which has clearly arisen from the course of their employment? Will he ask the advisory committee to reach a decision in a matter of months, not in a matter of seven years?

It was because we were aware of the problem to which my hon. Friend refers that the report was not only requested but rapidly referred to the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council, which is now studying it. The council will be aware of the urgency of the problem, but it must take evidence. However, I am certain that it will note the point made by my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps are taken or proposed to ensure that immigrants suffering from or who might have contracted leprosy abroad do not enter this country.

Immigrants are subject to medical examination either in their country of origin or at our ports and airports. Examining doctors have been asked to look out particularly for leprosy. If the condition was discovered, entry would normally be refused except in the case of dependants with an entitlement to enter the country, who would be required to report to the medical officer of health at their destination.

Does this not show that it is absolutely essential that all intending immigrants coming from countries where this kind of disease is still prevalent should have a compulsory medical examination before being given visas for this country to save the expense of travel and disappointment when they get here?

This would present considerable difficulties. We should remember that leprosy is sometimes difficult to diagnose in the early stage and impossible in the incubation stage. On the other hand, the number of new cases notified in this country in the whole of last year was 45, and the number of cases this year so far—and we are near the end of the year—is 24. Therefore, I do not think that we should let the problem get out of perspective.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether, when the proposed private hospital is constructed at Lisson Grove, London, he will arrange to acquire it so that its facilities may be used according to need and not according to ability to pay.

Additional hospital provision of the kind reported in the Press is not required for National Health Service purposes in this locality.

If this proposed hospital goes ahead with a charge of 15 guineas a day, plus treatment, and is projected to produce a profit of fi million a year, will it not divert to private purposes treatment facilities and skilled labour which ought to be employed in the National Health Service?

I agree with my hon. Friend that admission to hospital should depend on need and not on ability to pay, but we have that private sector in this country, and it is legal.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what steps he is taking to bring about a meeting between the pharmaceutical and medical professions to discuss the question of dispensing in rural areas.

I have made clear that in my view it will be best if in the first place any discussions are arranged by the professions themselves. My Department will be glad to take part as soon as the professions consider that this would be useful.

I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for that answer. Can he give any indication about any help that he might be giving to the professions, or using his good offices, to try to bring them together on this?

No, Sir. What I said in my answer is literally true. I think they will he better if they get on on their own, rather than that I should intervene.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is strong feeling on the pharmaceutical side that the Minister has been nobbled by the B.M.A. on this question? Will be therefore go to the B.M.A. and say that there are grounds for looking at this again?

I think it may be true that the pharmaceutical side, which had hoped that I would impose what had previously been assumed to be an agreed solution,, was disappointed when I did not.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will appoint an independent commission to inquire into the working of the Abortion Act.

No, Sir.

In view of the continuing and widespread professional and public anxiety about the working of the Act, the fact that abortions are running at a rate of more than 1,000 a week, and that my amending Bill last Session was only narrowly defeated, is not there a substantial case for an impartial inquiry into the whole issue?

I should not have thought so. I think that if one looks at the working of the Act one sees the encouraging fact that the proportion of abortions carried out in National Health Service hospitals has increased steadily during the year from 56 per cent. during the first quarter to 65 per cent. in the third. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it was the activities of the private sector about which we were alarmed. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the increased proportion of abortions in National Health Service hospitals.

I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on resisting the invitation to set up yet another independent committee, on any subject, but will he accept that it might be useful to have a report from his Department at some time in the near future on how it sees the working of the Abortion Act and the difficulties which have arisen in some parts of the country?

I think that that would be useful, and in preparation for it I have asked the B.M.A. and the Royal College of Gynaecologists to send a questionnaire to their members, on the basis of which I might be able to issue a report.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is general public satisfaction that a larger number of girls and women who require pregnancies to be terminated are now able to get that done in National Health Service hospitals, always bearing in mind that there are still some black spots where gynaecologists in the National Health Service are not prepared to carry out what is now the law of the land? Will he therefore consider setting up special units in those areas to increase the number of terminations carried out under the National Health Service?

I must remind my hon. Friend that it is the law of the land that each doctor's conscience must be respected, and that when a doctor does not do an abortion he is not breaking the law. This was the definition of the law. This is what gives rise, inevitably, to the differences between regions. I agree that one of the results is that private nursing homes are being established in the Birmingham region, something which I much regret, but I should regret even more the creation of special clinics in the National Health Service, because this operation, to be done adequately, must be done in a general hospital with full supporting services.

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will investigate the dangers to health involved in the use of Vapona Strips as outlined in the hon. Member for Bosworth's letter of 28th October, 1969 ; and if he will make a statement.

When the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and Other Toxic Chemicals considered the use of Vapona Strips in agriculture, horticulture, food storage and home kitchens, all the available toxicological evidence was studied. The firm wishing to market the product provided sufficient data to satisfy the committee that there should be no hazard to human health. The information which my hon. Friend has sent to my right hon. Friend will be referred to the advisory committee and steps will be taken to try to obtain the unpublished evidence on which this claim that the strips are hazardous is partly based.

Does my hon. Friend realise that Professor Lofroth, who is a great expert in this matter, believes that this is so serious that the stuff being emanated from Vapona Strips is the equivalent of a nerve gas, causing a reduction in the number of red blood corpuscles and perhaps leading to cancer and various other diseases? Is he also aware that the limits set by the World Health Organisation in respect of the dilution of this stuff into the atmosphere are greatly exceeded by the manufacturers' recommendations?

As I said in my original answer, the committee considered the safety of Vapona Strips and cleared them in 1967, but in view of the new evidence we are putting the point to it again. I think that it would be best to await its opinion.