asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what evidence she has received on the extent of abuse of the Redundancy Payments Act ; and if she will make a statement.

:I have no evidence that payments are being made under the Act to which the recipients are not entitled.

Have there been any prosecutions? Is there any evidence of employers conniving with employees to take undue advantage of the Act?

:I know of no prosecutions, but I will check and let my hon. Friend know. As for collusion, we investigate carefully particularly where rebate of redundancy payments is claimed. We have made a special inquiry, which we are repeating, which certainly did not reveal any case of clear abuse of the Act.

:Can the hon. Gentleman say when the amending legislation which I believe was promised by his predecessor, dealing with one aspect of the abuse of this Act, will be forthcoming?

:My predecessor promised amending legislation regarding anomalies. We are at the moment engaged in consultations with the C.B.I., the T.U.C. and other organisations, and in due course amending legislation will be brought forward.

:My hon. Friend may have no evidence of workers receiving redundancy payments to which they are not entitled, but is he aware that employers are often evading their responsibilities under the Act by depriving workers of redundancy payments because of the mergers of companies, in which case the legal responsibility falls?

:As my hon. Friend knows, it is possible for anyone who thinks that he has been wrongly deprived of redundancy payments under the Act to make an appeal to the Industrial Tribunal. If my hon. Friend will let me know of any specific cases I will look into them.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity how many unofficial strikes occurred in the essential public services in the first nine months of 1969 ; how many hours were lost as a result of these strikes ; and what were the comparable figures for the first nine months of the previous four years.

:In the official statistics, stoppages are classified according to the standard industrial classification. I am therefore providing figures for those groups which clearly cover essential services, that is, gas, electricity and water, transport and communication and public administration and defence. Separate figures are available only for stoppages known to have been official. We do not know whether all the remainder were unofficial but the great majority would have fallen within this category. As the reply consists of a table of figures, I will. with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Is the Minister aware that the concession of rather massive pay awards after recent unofficial strikes, especially in the public services, not only makes nonsense of the Government's pay policy but also makes it terribly difficult for trade union leaders to persuade their members to operate through constitutional procedures? Will not such damaging strikes continue to occur so long as blackmail and anomaly pay such large

:I remind hon. Members that supplementary questions should be brief.

:I would remind the hon. Gentleman that these settlements were arrived at after collective bargaining. The Government are not necessarily implicated or involved in the negotiations leading to a settlement. If it is suggested that these strikes have resulted from the Government's incomes policy and would not have occurred in the absence of such a policy, I must point out that there is no evidence to support that.

:Does not the Minister agree that these strikes indicate prima facie the unsatisfactory wage structure and method of collective bargaining in local government and public services? Should not something be done about this, for example, by asking the C.I.R. to look into it?

:This has been the subject of debate in the House, and we have agreed that there are unsatisfactory wage structures in both the public and private sectors. There may be a case—but not at the moment—for asking the C.I.R. to look at some of these unsatisfactory wage structures.

:Would not my hon. Friend agree that the workers in these industries think that they have been getting lousy wages and that it is about time they got better ones?

:This is obviously their view, but I would remind my hon. Friend that low pay existed long before the incomes policy.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will take steps to inquire into the causes and origin of recent unofficial strikes in the public services ; and if she will make a statement.

:In the disputes in question, settlements have been reached following negotiations, or, in some cases, the issues are still being dealt with under the agreed procedures.

:Would the hon. Gentleman agree that the main cause of these unofficial stoppages is that they pay big dividends? Are not the Minister and public authorities undermining the efforts of trade union leaders by conceding to unofficial strikers what they will not concede through genuine procedures?

:This has been one of the traditional practices in industrial bargaining over a long period of time. Certainly we are experiencing more unrest and militant action than has been the case. Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Government should take action to prevent people striking in this situation?

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the disruption to services on the Northern Line of the Underground railway as a result of an inter-union dispute, which is preventing anyone from repairing faulty rolling-stock? What is being done about this?

:The original Question is in general terms but if the hon. Gentleman would like to put down a Question on this dispute no doubt he will receive an answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what new plans she has to ensure that any future development of Prices and Incomes policy improves the position of lower-paid workers.

:I must ask my hon. Friend to await the publication of the White Paper later this year.

:Does my right hon. Friend not recognise that where the Government have a direct responsibility for some of the lower-paid workers there is some moral obligation on them to ensure that those lower-paid workers get substantial increases that are now being obtained by unofficial action in many instances'? I instance the nurses who cannot strike, will not strike, and who have remained for a long time among the lower-paid workers.

:I am sure that my hon. Friend will not expect me to answer the particular case to which he has referred because it is primarily within the sphere of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. On the general point I would say that I believe one of the purposes of the prices and incomes policy is to enable us to get the relationship between different pay structures and pay levels on a more socially justifiable basis. To do that we must have a willingness by all concerned in industry to co-operate in such a policy.

:Would the right hon. Lady bear in mind when preparing her White Paper that it is no good at all dealing with lower-paid workers in isolation and that all skilled workers and artisans, particularly those who have spent long years in training as apprentices and later as journeymen, expect the full differential to be maintained?

:The hon. Gentleman is merely putting in different words—and I will not take responsibility for his wording—the concept which I was putting in my previous answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she is aware that the average salary of managing directors of companies with a turnover of under £1 million is £5,965 and that of companies over £100 million is £26,523 ; and if she will refer this differential to the National Board for Prices and Incomes.

:I have seen the article in the October issue of The Director in which these figures appeared. I do not think that a general reference concerning salaries of managing directors would be of value.

:Does my hon. Friend appreciate that there is no hope of even a voluntary prices and incomes policy working while some of these arrogant and opinionated directors each take out of industry anything up to 50 times the amount which people working in the industry earn?

:The question of salaries at this level in the private sector was considered by the N.B.P.I., in report No. 108 which pointed out that the salaries of these individuals can be judged only in relation to the salary structure in which they are placed.

:Would the hon. Gentleman agree that if we take into account the penal rates of taxation, senior executives, directors and managing directors of British companies are the worst paid in the world?

:I have no evidence that would lead me to believe that they are the worst paid in the world.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she will report to the House the outcome of five cases of higher boardroom salaries being examined by her Department ; which are the two that have been cleared ; and what action is being taken on the other three.

:Following correspondence with the companies, it has now been decided to take no further action in any of these cases. I do not propose to disclose the names of the individual companies concerned.

:Is not my hon. Friend being unnecessarily soft with the rich and will he not soak them more?

The Chancellor has no doubt got this point in mind. [HON.MEMBERS : "Oh."] I can only repeat that salaries at this level in the private sector were considered by the N.B.P.I. which made recommendations. My right hon. Friend said earlier that she would consider consultations with the T.U.C. and C.B.I. on the practicability of a reference to the Board of salary structures of individual firms.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what is her estimate of the amount by which incomes will be restrained by use of the delaying powers of four months ; and if she will make a statement.

:It is not possible to give a quantitative estimate.

:Would my right hon. Friend accept that the monetary squeeze is likely to hold back incomes more than any delaying power? In these circumstances, would she not agree that it might be better to allow the powers to lapse and to allow a voluntary policy to work?

:We are often told that a voluntary policy could do the job that the prices and incomes legislation has been designed to do. Frankly I cannot see any evidence that without the pressures of public opinion which we are able to marshall through the prices and incomes legislation, there will be any reality in voluntary incomes policy at all.

:In view of the prevailing confusion, can the right hon. Lady clarify what the Government now regard as the norm for wage and salary increases?

:The White Paper introduced at the time of the last legislation is still current. A new one will be introduced shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she will make a statement on the current level of industrial disputes.

:It is provisionally estimated that during the first nine months of this year in industry, including mining and quarrying, there were 2,181 recorded stoppages of work, involving the loss of 3,989,000 working days at the establishments where the disputes occurred.

:Is there not a lesson to be learnt from what happened in the exhibition contracting industry, where an increase was frozen until February, 1970, and eventually allowed but only after there was an enormous number of unofficial stoppages? Is not that a good reason, once again, for allowing the prices and incomes powers to lapse rather than bridge them as is the present plan?

:I cannot accept my hon. Friend's premise that it has been undue delay in settling pay applications that has been the cause of the strikes. Rather the issues go wider and deeper than that. We shall need to consider those increases in a far more serious context.

:Would the right hon. Lady not agree, referring again to the exhibition contracting industry, that the sole effect of her Ministry's intervention is to increase the percentage increase in average wages which had originally been agreed and which her Department then froze?

:No.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity how many days have been lost due to strikes and stoppages, unofficial and official, during the 12 months to the end of September, 1969 ; what were the comparable figures for the 12 months ended, respectively, 30th September, 1967, 1965, and 1963 ; and what are the reasons for the progressive loss increases due to these causes.

:It is provisionally estimated that in the 12 months to the end of September, 1969, stoppages of work due to industrial disputes resulted in the loss of 4,772,000 workingdays at the establishments where the disputes occurred. The comparable figures for the 12 months ended 30th September, 1967, 1965 and 1963 were 2,106,000, 2,898.000 and 2,083,000, respectively. A major reason for the high level of the latest figure is that the institutions and methods of collective bargaining are not being reformed and extended quickly enough to meet the needs of industrial change.

:Do not these figures reveal that stoppages have increased by about 2½, times compared with six years ago? Whereas there are widespread and diverse causes for this calamitous state of affairs, is it not evident that hastening inflation as a result of Government policies and increasing stoppages are marching hand in hand?

:It is time right hon. and hon. Members opposite stopped playing around with figures to suit their convenience and to help them make political capital out of industrial unrest. The hon. Gentleman referred to six years ago. Why did not he refer to seven years ago, when, over the same period, the number of days lost was not in the region of 3 million or 4 million but 5½ million? Indeed, one could go back to the first nine months of 1957. During those nine months, 8 million days were lost. The continual use of "phoney" figures both by the hon. Gentleman and by the Leader of the Opposition is doing a tremendous amount of harm.

:Does not the hon. Gentleman accept, as the Donovan Commission accepted and as the White Paper "In Place of Strife" accepted, that the number of strikes outside the coal mining industry is doing vital damage to the country? Does not he realise that the figure is five times as high as it was in the 1950s?

:Yes, Sir. But I repeat that the continued use by the Opposition of selected figures which distort the situation, far from finding a solution to what we all accept is a situation fraught with serious problems, and one in which we cannot afford to be complacent, only exacerbates the situation. It certainly does not help to find a way of diminishing the number of strikes.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she is satisfied that the Trades Union Congress have complied with the undertakings given to Her Majesty's Government on 18th June, 1968 ; and if she will make a statement.

:The Government welcome the manner in which the T.U.C. General Council has set about using its new powers to attempt to settle or avert serious disputes.

:I pay tribute to the valiant efforts of Mr. Victor Feather, but would not the right hon. Lady agree that the serious disruption suffered by industry and the public in recent weeks suggests that the T.U.C. is not as effective as her own proposals would have been had they been enacted last summer?

:I am very glad to hear hon. Gentlemen's support for my proposals instead of those of hon. Gentlemen opposite, which would certainly have been totally ineffectual in dealing with the issues we faced, because what we have had in the last few months—and it should be remembered that we are only at the beginning of a great new attempt by the trade union movement to help us solve the problem of inter-union disputes and unconstitutional strikes—has been a series of successes by the T.U.C. We certainly have not had success in every case, but I think that the Port Talbot strike is proof that there the unions as well as the T.U.C. used every possible endeavour to solve the dispute. It showed that the solutions are slightly more difficult than the hon. Gentleman suggests.

:Would not my right hon. Friend agree that it is because they are a new responsibility to the T.U.C. that they are working reasonably well ; and that this is still a far better procedure and practice than would be the case if the party opposite ever got into power and introduced aggressive trade union legislation?

:I certainly think that the proposals of hon. Gentlemen opposite would have been irrelevant to a situation such as, for instance, the Port Talbot dispute, where the union was clearly using its best endeavours, and when Jim Barry, the General Secretary, was howled down as a result of his trying to get the chaps back to work. We have here a deep-rooted problem for which we shall have to have slow and constructive solutions. No pat answers will meet the day.

:Can the right hon. Lady quote some other successes that have been achieved, particularly in the car industry?

:There are a whole number of cases where T.U.C. interventions has been remarkably effective. There was the Joseph Lucas strike last summer. There was the Newspaper Proprietors' Association dispute with the N.G.A. There was the Bemrose dispute. There have been a series of inter-union disputes where the T.U.C. has set up a disputes committee which has made an award which has then been accepted by the parties.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what steps she now proposes to take to reduce strikes and stoppages in the motor industry ; and what plans she has to appoint a successor to Sir Jack Scamp as troubleshooter.

:Following my right hon. Friend's discussions last year with the employers and the unions about the setting up of a National Council for the Motor Industry, they indicated their desire to pursue this matter jointly, and I understand the two sides expect to reach final agreement very shortly. The proposals which the two sides are considering do not envisage that the new Council will have an independent chairman.

:Has not the hon. Gentleman perceived that the motor industry, which is probably the most prosperous of all British industries, contributing about £1,000 million to our nation's export trade, is also the most strike-bound of all our industries? What is he doing at Governmental level to try to alleviate the situation?

:I do not think that anyone would deny that the motor industry has been undergoing a number of fundamental structural changes in recent years and that this has inevitably brought strains and tensions. I repeat that none of us can afford to be complacent about the level of industrial unrest and the days lost due to strikes. But it is our belief that the National Council for the Motor Industry, when established, will be an important step in the right direction.

:Will my hon. Friend consider instituting an inquiry into the wage structure throughout the motor industry? I think he will agree that the confusion and complexity of the wage structure as between different firms not only in the industry but within the same towns is one of the underlying reasons for a good deal of the unrest.

:When I referred to the structural changes taking place in industry, that was one of the aspects 1 had in mind. This is only one of many factors in a complex situation. The creation of the National Council which is proposed will enable those within the industry to give more careful consideration to this kind of problem.

:Has the hon. Gentleman seen the salutary warning issued by Lord Stokes in another place yesterday on the deteriorating situation? Do the Government subscribe to the sentiments expressed by Lord Stokes where the question of exports is concerned?

:I would not dream of challenging Lord Stokes on the export figures and I repeat that there are no grounds for complacency in this situation. But I think that the next important step is the establishment of the National Council for the industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what are the latest unemployment figures for the South-West ; when they were last at the same level ; and what action she now proposes to take to help employment in the region.

At 13th October, 1969, there were 37,200 persons registered as unemployed in the South-Western Region and the percentage rate of unemployment was 2·8. This rate was last reached in March, 1969, when 38,000 persons were on the registers. My local officers are continuing their efforts to help the unemployed to find suitable work, including the offer of opportunities for training where appropriate. The Government are applying a wide range of measures to stimulate the growth of employment in the South-Western development area and are extending several of these incentives to the Plymouth intermediate area.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is widely reported that there is a steady deterioration in the employment situation in the South-West? Will he concentrate a little more on that area and a little less on some of the other parts of the country before the situation gets worse?

:We have created an intermediate area at Plymouth. We have taken action to increase training opportunities. A considerable number of jobs are in prospect. One point which the hon. Gentleman should bear in mind is that, in that area, in common with many other areas, the number of unfilled vacancies is rising and the contrast between the unemployment figures and the rising number of unfilled vacancies is something we are studying.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity how many places at Government training centres in the Northern Region were unfilled on the last available date ; and what steps are being taken to fill the vacancies.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if all places in Government training centres in the Northern Region are filled ; if she is satisfied that available courses adequately serve the skill requirements of industries in the region ; and if she will make a statement.

On 13th October, 1969, there were 272 unfilled places. My officers are continuing their efforts to encourage potential trainees to apply for the engineering courses, in which most of the vacancies exist. They are also drawing the attention of employers to the facilities for free sponsored training of their employees at centres in the Northern Region.

:Does my hon. Friend appreciate that it is because of the progress we have made over the last year or two in the provision of these places that the figures are disturbing? Will he consider holding a general review of the courses, see that they are all relevant to the employment opportunities and step up the campaign in order to bring home to people the importance of taking such courses?

:I will look at the first point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey). On the second point, I remind him that we are doing a great deal to publicise the availability of the courses. But I have to admit that there are particular difficulties in the Northern Region, where one of the limiting factors is the possibility of employment after courses are taken. There is also the point, to which I drew attention in my main answer, that there are a large number of unfilled places in engineering, which is characteristic of most of the country.

:Will the hon. Gentleman take it as a severe criticism of the Government's policy towards our development area that such a large number of places are not taken up? Will he recognise that our high unemployment figure masks a severe shortage of skill? Will he make every effort to bring to the notice of employers sponsored courses, and speed up the procedure of setting up new courses?

:We have done a great deal to assist in the Northern Region where there are a number of industries characterised by declining employment, which makes very important the provision of adequate training courses. One of the best possibilities I can see for an increase in occupancy in Government training centres in the region would be an increase in the amount of sponsored training opportunities, which we are increasingly drawing to the attention of the employers.

:Will my hon. Friend agree that, to a large measure, the number of vacancies available is a consequence of the Government's success in providing places in the development area? Furthermore, does not he agree that perhaps one reason why some of these places are not taken up is the level of payment made to those taking the courses?

:I note that latter point. We are continuing to expand the availability of Government training centres. A new sector is opening in Durham on 17th November and another in Darlington in January.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what progress she has made in her discussions with both sides of industry relating to equal pay for women ; and if she will make a statement.

:I have made a number of proposals to the C.B.I., the T.U.C. and others for the detailed content of a Bill on equal pay. These are at present being studied by those concerned. I hope to have their reactions during the course of this month.

:If my right hon. Friend is concerned about equality for our sex, as I am sure she is, would not she agree that the introduction of the earnings-related pensions proposals in 1972 gives added impetus for bringing forward the date for equal pay before 1976?

:One of the subjects for consultation is, of course, the period when the Bill shall become fully effective. As my hon. Friends knows, we are proposing that discrimination against women in rates of pay shall be made illegal by the end of 1975. Within that period, however, there is nothing to prevent negotiations proceeding for progress towards equal pay.

:As there is general agreement in politics and industry that discrimination against women should end, is the right hon. lady's mind open to the possibility of phasing in complete equal pay before 1975?

:I can only tell the hon. Lady that I am under contrary pressure from industry, which is anxious lest the rate of advance in particular industries may be too fast. The Government have considered that point of view and the contrary point of view which is held by the hon. Lady, my hon. Friend, the T.U.C. and others ; which is that we should advance more quickly. We feel, however, that the date that we have fixed strikes a fair balance between the two considerations.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity if she is satisfied with the recent salary increase for traffic wardens ; and if she will make a statement.

:Yes. Traffic wardens benefited from the increase awarded from 1st August, 1969, to local authority administrative, professional, technical and clerical staff generally. In the Metropolitan Police District, additional grades were introduced at the same time, largely to relieve police officers of supervisory duties.

:Does my hon. Friend consider that to raise traffic wardens' salaries to a maximum of £2,000 a year is socially justifiable, to use one of my right hon. Friend's phrases, when one considers, for example, the teachers' pay claim?

:I remind my hon. Friend that this was a negotiated and agreed settlement within the National Joint Council covering these groups.

:Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some people would consider it even more important to have more traffic crossing patrol wardens than traffic wardens? Is he doing anything about the shortage of crossing wardens in certain areas?

:The hon. Lady may care to put that question to my right hon. Friend the Minister responsible for Transport.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what is the proportion of the British gross national product which goes to wages and salaries in relation to comparable figures for other industrial countries available to him from international sources ; and on what basis the figures are compiled.

:I will, with permission, circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT the information requested.

:Would my hon. Friend agree that in the past the figures have been striking and that the latest information is likely to prove equally important to managements and trade unions alike? However, in view of the doubts that have been expressed, might he be prepared to institute an inquiry into the way in which the figures are compiled because at least three organisations do not know? I refer to the National Board for Prices and Incomes, the Central Statistical Office and his Department?

:I think that only one Department is responsible, and that is the Treasury, which gives a quite detailed breakdown of the figures in the appropriate Blue Book on National Income. However, in view of my hon. Friends remarks, I will look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what is the annual cost of the Commission for Industrial Relations.

:The estimated cost of the Commission during the current financial year is £290,000.

:When will the long-suffering public receive a dividend from this useless and very expensive Government organisation?

:I believe that the hon. Gentleman is very much on his own in suggesting that this is a useless organisation and that the House accepts that in the long run it will prove to represent money well spent.

:If the Minister is looking for work to give this Commission, would he consider referring to it the long-standing dispute between the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Mr. Dance) and his local party members who believe that his views are too reactionary for Bromsgrove?

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether those who are seeking employment who have not sufficiently mastered the skills of reading and writing and are thereby difficult to place in employment are helped by advice or in any other way by her department to improve their literate and linguistic competence ; whether the initial teaching alphabet is used or recommended to those concerned and to what extent it is used to improve their competence ; and whether she will will make a statement.

:Limited competence in reading and writing is not necessarily an obstacle to satisfactory placing in employment. In the course of assisting people to find suitable work, my officers may, where appropriate and as part of their normal advisory work, give information about any available educational facilities. Particular teaching methods are a matter for those providing these facilities.

:Would the Minister examine the good work of the school boards of America, which have shown that the teaching of reading and writing to the illiterate can very much help the unemployment situation in certain areas? Will he also find out from his right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence the results of our army school preliminary education?

:I an grateful to the hon. Gentlemen for that suggestion and I will look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she is satisfied with the present operation of the Industrial Training Act ; and if she will make a statement.

:In general, the Act is working well. The annual reports of the training boards show that substantial progress is being made. The Central Training Council has given guidance to the boards on important policy issues and continues to study certain outstanding problems.

:Does the right hon. Lady realise that the system as it is operating at present frequently puts a worthless burden on particularly the small companies, whose needs seldom correspond to the whims and fancies of the Government?

:I would not accept that at all. The legislation, which was initiated by a Conservative Administration, has proved a great boon across industry and, of course, we have built extensively on the basis of the Act. The boards are aware of the problems of small firms, and for this reason the number of group training schemes has been increased. The Council has had a special look at the problems of smaller firms.

:Is it not a fact that there has been a vast and highly beneficial increase in industrial training since Labour took office in 1964? What is my right hon. Friend's forecast for the future in this context?

:My hon. Friend is certainly correct. There has been a massive increase in the numbers under training and I am only too glad to give some information, not only for the benefit of the House but for the enlightenment of the Leader of the Opposition, who only the other day said in Scotland:

" I can foresee that something like 100,000 men and women will need to be trained every year—trained by industry, by Government and through the educational system."

" That is why I have pledged the next Conservative Government to an unprecedented programme of training…."

:Is not the right hon. Lady well aware that my right hon. Friend was referring to a totally different problem, one which has been made abundantly clear in the House? Is she aware that my right hon. Friend was referring to what has been popularly called "adult retraining "—I do not like this difference that appears to be put on training and retraining—and, in referring to what is an entirely different problem, spoke of the urgent need for action and pledged that the next Conservative Government would do far more than the right hon. Lady has done?

:Having read the text of the speech made by the Leader of the Opposition on that occasion, I cannot accept the specialised interpretation which the right hon. Member for Mitcham (Mr. R. Carr) endeavours to put on it. It was a totally misleading statement and, once again, the Leader of the Opposition used statistics selectively and inaccurately.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what was the total number of unemployed school leavers in the Portsmouth area in September, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968 and 1969, respectively.

:The numbers of unemployed school leavers in the Portsmouth travelto-work area on the specified dates were 111, 125, 66, 107, 142 and 99.

:I thank my hon. Friend for that encouraging reply. Would he agree that the contraction of the Naval Dockyard and the rationalisation of employment in the dockyard at Portsmouth means that there is a potential danger of future trouble in the area? Will he keep the matter under close surveillance?

:I will certainly keep the situation under close surveillance. However, I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the fact that when one considers the number of vacancies for boys and girls, one sees that the figures were notably up in October of this year compared with October of last year—an example of the contrast to which I referred earlier.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity what proposals she has to introduce a minimum wage legislation.

:The possibility of minimum wage legislation raises complex questions. These are examined in the Report on A National Minimum Wage prepared by an interdepartmental working party and published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office. I would like this report to form the basis of study and informed discussion by all those concerned with the subject, before I decide whether legislation would be the right way of tackling the problem. Women, who constitute the majority of the lowest paid workers, will of course benefit from the proposed legislation on equal pay.

:Is the right hon. Lady aware that so many wages of men and women in Scotland are so minimum already as to be well below the level of Government social benefits? In this situation, would she not reconsider the urgency of introducing minimum wage legislation? If she does not do so at an early date, will she say why an important principle of the Labour movement has been thrown overboard?

:I am glad to have the hon. Lady's conversion to Socialist doctrine and I look forward to seeing further extensions of her education. I would remind her that in my original reply I stated that the Government had had this study made and this report published so that informed discussion on the problem of achieving a national minimum wage could take place. We will welcome views expressed by either side of industry on how we can achieve an aim which involves matters slightly more complex than the hon. Lady might seem to suggest.

asked the Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity whether she will make a statement on the latest position regarding containerisation in the London Docks, Thames Estuary and the associated area.

The removal of the T. & G.W.U. ban on the operation of new specialised terminals in London, including No. 39 container terminal at Tilbury, continues to be linked, in the union's view, with progress on the second stage of the Devlin modernisation programme in the port. The outcome of the key negotiations for the Enclosed Docks depends upon a ballot of its members now being arranged by the union on the employers' offer.

:Is the Minister aware that this dispute has been going on since March of this year, that over £3 million of investment is lying idle, and that about £2 million of foreign exchange has been lost by it? Does he not think that his Ministry has been somewhat dilatory in dealing with the dispute?

:I can tell the hon. Gentleman, who has taken a very keen interest in the case, that what he says is contrary to the truth. We have been continuously involved but, as we have reached a crucial stage when preparations for a ballot are in hand, I hope that hon. Gentlemen will not press me or put me in a position where I might say something that might prejudice the outcome of that ballot.