asked the Minister of Technology whether he will be submitting evidence to be included in Her Majesty's Government's analysis of the effects of entering the European Economic Community.

Yes, Sir. All the relevant Government Departments are involved in the preparation of assessments of the effects of entering the European Economic Community.

If my hon. Friend agrees that there is a series of industries of innovation that can be developed only by an integrated science and tech- nological policy in Europe, would he say whether proper attention has been given to this aspect and whether the cost of not going into the Common Market has been brought out in the survey?

While the survey is not yet completed, every relevant factor will be considered by the Ministry before it reaches final conclusions.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the recent British/Swedish agreement on increasing technical co-operation in the fields of atomic energy, computer techniques and social technologies.

There is no formal agreement between our two countries, but the visit to the United Kingdom in June of this year by Herr Wickman, the Swedish Minister of Industry, provided a useful basis for the developing technological contacts and co-operation which are taking place. Social technologies are the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Local Government and Regional Planning, who is responsible for the wide range of environmental problems.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that statement. With particular reference to computers, as we have a real chance and a lead as opposed to the Americans in Sweden, is any future development likely to take place, and will my right hon. Friend consider visiting that country?

My hon. Friend who was with me and who is now at the Department of Education and Science went to Sweden early in October. There is now a fairly firm pattern of visits, and 1 should like to go to Sweden. The question of computers is best dealt with at the industrial level.

asked the Minister of Technology whether he will make a statement on the Report of the Working Party on Hydrofoils.

As my hon. Friend explained to the hon. Member on 22nd October—[Vol. 788, c. 279]—the results of the technical investigations recommended by the working party are now being studied in conjunction with the working party's report. This is still the position.

Is it not time that we heard something about this hydrofoil report? Is it not true that the working party was set up originally under Mr. Silverleaf two years ago and that an interim report was published 18 months ago? Should not hon. Members now be given a sight of it?

Any decision on the production of hydrofoil ships in this country is a matter for industry and the Government. It is a potentially very expensive development and, like industry, the Government must consider the matter very carefully indeed.

Am I correct in my information that the report of the working party was received by the Minister in November, 1968? In any event, would the hon. Gentleman make copies of it available to hon. Members?

We had a copy some time ago. Although some of the material in the report is commercially rather secret, I will ask my right hon. Friend to consider the possibility of releasing at least some of the information.

asked the Minister of Technology how much coal production was lost through the recent unofficial strikes in the coalfields.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will give details of the total tonnage lost as a result of the recent strike in the coal industry; and what effect this will have upon the financial estimates for the year.

About 2½ million tons were lost. It is too early to say precisely what the effects will be on the financial estimates for the year.

What action are the Government taking to prevent a recurrence?

The Government have already indicated their plan on industrial relations [Laughter.]—and, in so far as hon. Gentlemen opposite find this amusing, I would remind them that when the Leader of the Opposition was at the Ministry of Labour the coal industry lost more days in strikes in eight months than it has lost under a Labour Government in three years?

Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House and the country that the wage increase which has been offered will not result in increased prices to consumers?

The hon. Gentleman really must know that nobody could give such an assurance. It has already been indicated by the chairman of the board that some increases may be necessary. I have as yet no statement to make about what the level will be, but discussions are going on with the N.C.B.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that the British miners have as good a record in industrial relations as any of their counterparts anywhere in the world and that recent events have shown that their record is much better than that of, for example, the miners of Germany?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The antagonism displayed towards workers in the nationalised industries by hon. Gentlemen opposite promises that in the unlikely event of their return to office, industrial relations would deteriorate, particularly in this sector.

While it is in no way a question of antagonism, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he is aware that concern is being voiced by my hon. Friends because in this difficult period of contraction these sorts of strikes are taking place and that the resultant buying off by the Government in this respect can only harm the future progress of the coal industry?

That sort of statement is not likely to build any confidence in the N.U.M. towards the sort of approach that hon. Gentlemen opposite would have should they ever be returned to power.

asked the Minister of Technology what consultations he has had with steel consumers about the British Steel Corporation's projected reorganisation into product groups; and whether he will make a statement.

The Iron and Steel Consumers' Council has been fully consulted on the proposals and there has also been informed public discussion in the light of the Second Report on Organisation (House of Commons Paper 163) and subsequent statements.

As there have been some recent signs of monopolistic behaviour by the Steel Corporation, will the hon. Gentleman undertake that the Government will not give final approval to the reorganisation scheme until they are satisfied that the steel consumers are satisfied?

Of course we take the opinion of the consumers into account but it is ludicrous to suggest that there is a monopoly situation in circumstances of world surplus.

Is my hon. Friend aware that we in Scotland are grateful to the Corporation for establishing one of its departments in Glasgow?

asked the Minister of Technology what his latest estimate is of the total reserves of natural gas so far proven in the United Kingdom Continental Shelf.

I estimate recoverable reserves at 27 trillion cubic feet.

Do those figures include the Viking field? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the fact that so much has already been established indicates that the search has been prosecuted with maximum speed and minimum cost to the taxpayer?

This is the most up-to-date information I have been able to obtain and I assume, therefore, that it contains the information the hon. Gentleman refers to. I agree that this is a very encouraging series of discoveries, and we look forward to even better discoveries, when, of course, we have public participation as well in the next stage.

asked the Minister of Technology what representations he has received from consumers about possible shortages of coal or other solid fuels; and what reply he has sent.

Apart from correspondence arising out of the recent strike the Department has received about 30 letters in the last three months; they dealt with solid smokeless fuels and the replies have been on the lines of the answers given to my right hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. George Brown) on 22nd October and to the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Mr. Richard Wainwright) on 31st October.—[Vol. 788, c. 280–1; Vol. 790, c. 18–19.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the stocks in some cases have been run right down? What efforts are being made now to replenish over and above the usual standing, so as to take account of non-delivery of coal over the Christmas period?

There is not much danger of shortage of coal in the circumstances, but there is undeniably a certain amount of difficulty in relation to some solid fuels. There is a later Question on the Order Paper on that subject.

What consideration has the Ministry given to issuing a directive to local authorities to withhold the prescription of smoke control orders until they are assured of guaranteed smokeless fuel supplies?

I am not sure that that is the responsibility of my Department. I would require notice of a question of that detail.

asked the Minister of Technology when he expects to be able to make a statement about the vertical/ short take-off and landing aircraft projects submitted to him by manufacturers.

I have nothing to add to my Written Answer of 3rd November, 1969.—[Vol. 790, c. 20.]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that within the last few days two German companies have announced their plans to go ahead with the construction of a vertical take-off airliner which can operate between cities? Will he assure us that our lead in this matter, which is vital and has been very significant, will not be frittered away by delays in his Department?

The hon. Gentleman has always taken an interest in this matter and he knows that a large number of studies are going ahead in this country and abroad. Collaboration with other countries in Europe on this type of travel would be vital for the success of any scheme. Proposals for industrial collaboration would be a matter for the firms concerned. I believe that we are undertaking the studies required and are pushing ahead as well as science and all the other factors will allow.

What design studies are in progress?

The next stage is to decide whether there are prima facie grounds for inviting design studies and preliminary general planning after evaluation of the existing evidence.

asked the Minister of Technology what was the total amount of assistance given to development areas under the Local Employment Acts in each of the last eight years; and what proportion of the total went to Scotland.

Payments under the Acts in the eight years to 1968–69 have totalled £267 million, of which f115 million or 45 per cent. went to Scotland. I am circulating the figures for each year in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the figures for the early years include once-for-all investment in the motor car industry? If that is the case, will he consider including in his answer the figures for the later years, to take account of investment grants and the regional employment premium?

On the first part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question, I confirm that, in the earlier years, the amendments do reflect the substantial assistance given to the motor industry. On the second part, I will consider carefully whether information can be given about investment grants and the regional employment premium.

What are the Government doing about the net loss of jobs in Scotland of 67,000 in the last three years, about which information is available, comparing this with the net gain of jobs to Scotland between 1960 and 1964?

The hon. Gentleman should follow the debates in the House. If he did, he would have seen that considerable assistance has been given to Scotland.

asked the Minister of Technology whether he will now make a further statement on the motor industry and on measures to stimulate home sales as an ingredient in increased and increasing export performance.

Total production of motor cars in the first nine months of 1969 was 1,291,378. This was 4 per cent. lower than in the corresponding period of 1968, a 10½ per cent. fall in home market production being partly offset by a 4 per cent, rise in export production. Although home sales were depressed in the early part of this year, there have been signs of some improvement in demand in recent months. Current trends are kept constantly under review.

I recognise that the export performance of this industry has been splendid in the last year or two, but is it not a fact that it will be nearly impossible to go on expanding exports of motor vehicles generally without an accompanying increase in export prices unless the home market is allowed to expand naturally and is not severely curtailed as it has been in the last year or two?

The relationship between home market and profitability and, hence, the export success of the industry, is a point which has been regularly put to me by the industry, whose representatives I see regularly, and is the subject of discussion between the Government and the industry, notably in the motor industry E.D.C. These considerations are much in the Government's mind.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the sale of Bedford trucks has managed to combine record levels of exports and of home market sales? Would he not agree that, were the motor car producing side of the industry able to pursue its objectives with the same vigour as the commercial vehicle side, many of our economic problems would be solved?

It is true that, to the extent that the export success of the motor industry leads to an improved balance of payments, in the long run the need for restriction in the home market would diminish. This is part of the whole nature of the problem. But I congratulate the industry on the success to which my hon. Friend drew attention.

I assume from the figure the right hon. Gentleman has given us that this year's total output will be near or below that of 1964. In the circumstances, does the right hon. Gentleman expect the industry to achieve the target of the National Plan, which was an increase of 36 per cent. between 1964 and 1970?

I will make available to the hon. Gentleman the forecast figures for this year. I do not have them with me. The motor industry E.D.C. report is the next stage of the planning exercise, and a great deal of work has taken place between the Government and the industry in order to meet the considerations he has in mind.

asked the Minister of Technology what further consideration he has given to a scheme for the use of marine nuclear reactors in merchant ships and in particular for the third generation of container ships.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the progress of his consultations with the shipping industry about the construction of a prototype nuclear-powered merchant ship.

My Department's study of the cost and benefits of a nuclear ship project is continuing. It is too early yet to make any statement about it. Shipowners have been consulted in the course of this study which takes account of the development of container ships.

As four countries — Germany, Italy, the United States and Japan — have all got or are getting these ships, and as we are supposed to be a maritime nation, should not these studies be speeded up so that we are not left in the lurch?

Our evidence is that the four countries doing it are doing so at a loss. The question is whether we should do it as well at a loss and thus make five countries doing it at a loss. Our view of this, as in the case of a lot of other things, is that it should be looked at as an economic proposition. There is no doubt that with container ships, particularly with the fleet concept of container ships, the cost-benefit lines may alter in their favour. The problem is not any delay by the Government in studying this matter. The effect of the studies undertaken suggests that there may be a prestige case, but that as yet there is not an economic case for this development.

Is not the real point here that we must look at the possible uses of nuclear-powered vessels in terms of fleet operation and fleet operation only and not in isolation?

That is the point I tried to make. The systems approach to container ships as part of a systematic sea transport system might alter the economics, but the Government have no apology to make for having said, having studied it carefully, that the proposal on the present basis would not justify Government support.

asked the Minister of Technology how many foreign orders for nuclear power stations have been obtained in the last year; and for what type of reactor.

Only three nuclear power stations have been ordered, outside their own countries, during the past year. None of these orders went to the United Kingdom, but a number of firm projects are being actively pursued.

I recognise the great success of the Magnox type of reactor, but is not its high initial cost a very serious bar to sales overseas, and would not more sales overseas be of great benefit to the country?

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that more sales would be highly beneficial, but the Magnox is one part of the stage of evolving a new technology and it may be that more success can be achieved with some of the newer projects than with some of the older.

Has my hon. Friend's Department studied the relevant recommendations of the Select Committee on Science and Technology in its Second Report, which is now issued? May we have the observations of the Department fairly soon?

Naturally, the Department will be considering the recommendations and the information will be available as quickly as possible.

asked the Minister of Technology what study he has made of the effect on industry of the current level of interest rates; and if he will make a statement.

The level of interest rates is only one factor affecting company finance in industry, and not necessarily the most important. The effect of interest rates, along with other factors, is most readily indicated by the recorded and expected levels of industrial investment which are kept under continuous review by the Government.

It may not be terribly important to my hon. Friend. However, there are many unscrupulous firms which are charging exorbitant rates of interest which bear particularly hard on small companies, especially those in the development areas? Will he consider instituting an inquiry to see whether he can give assistance to firms of this type?

I will look at the point my hon. Friend has made, but I am sure that he will bear in mind the difficulties confronting the country and how successful the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been in holding interest rates even as they are, considering the Euro-dollar rate and the impact that is having.

Will the hon. Gentleman get some advice on this matter because he seems to be wide of the mark? Is he not aware that firms are having to pay very high rates of interest on money borrowed for import deposits? He may say that this is not important, but all the sums added together have an adverse effect on our exports.

The hon. Gentleman may have misheard me. I did not say that they were not important; I said that they were not the most important.

asked the Minister of Technology what representations he has received about current levels of liquidity in industry; and what replies he has sent.

I have received no specific representations on this subject.

Is not my hon. Friend aware that, particularly for small companies in development areas, where it tends to happen very frequently, there is a great shortage of liquidity? Will he consider the possibility of making payments of the investment grants and R.E.P., for instance, in advance of the Government's actually making the payment, so as to assist small companies of this type?

That question would probably be better directed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I am conscious of the difficulties my hon. Friend has mentioned, but, after all, this is part of the general strategy which is producing a balance of payments surplus ahead of target.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that it is imperative for export industries and import substitution industries to have the necessary investment and liquidity? Is he not aware that the Government are taking steps which make that difficult?

I can only repeat that that point of view is not reconcilable with the fact that our balance of payments improvement is ahead of target and is far better than any hon. Member opposite said we could achieve.

Is the hon. Gentleman really telling us that he is not aware of the desperate intensity of the lack of liquidity particularly among small firms? Are we to understand that in the private Whitehall discussions which must be going on about the credit squeeze and its relaxation the Ministry of Technology is not representing this point of view to the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

The answer to both questions is, "No. Sir".

asked the Minister of Technology what proposals he has to redefine the role of the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation in the light of experience so far gained during its existence.

I see no need to change the functions which are set out in the 1966 Act.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that both in respect of the equity participation in George Kent and in respect of the frustration of the Skefco bid the I.R.C. has established for itself the reputation of being an interventionist nonsense which should go the way of the Department of Economic Affairs?

The hon. Gentleman has picked out two of the activities of the I.R.C. of the last three years and entirely left out of account many others. I should have much preferred him to comment on the specific acts in which he thinks the Corporation has engaged and with which he disagrees rather than make a blanket condemnation of a group of distinguished industrialists who in my opinion are doing a very satisfactory job of work.

Does my right hon. Friend consider that where there is gross fragmentation of potentially big export industries, the I.R.C. has sufficient resources, physical and financial, to do this work? I have in mind, for instance, the electro-medical industry as being such a case.

The I.R.C. is not the only instrument, of course. Quite a number of mergers occur naturally of their own accord. The Ministry of Technology itself is and has been involved in some, notably shipbuilding and the computer industry and in supporting the aero-engine merger. One has to regard the I.R.C. as one of the means by which the problems of fragmentation can be overcome, but not the only one.

asked the Minister of Technology what is the expected change in the level of industrial investment during the prospective year in manufacturing industry and distributive trades, respectively; and if such changes are consistent with the Government's policy of restructuring the economy.

asked the Minister of Technology what estimate he has made of the level of manufacturing investment in 1969 and 1970.

The information was given in the latest Investment Intentions Inquiry published on Monday, 20th October. The high level of investment in 1970 forecast by manufacturers and others is welcomed by the Government. The pace and direction of restructuring the economy are not exclusively dependent upon levels of industrial investment, but the expected levels of investment are not inconsistent with Government policies, given other claims, particularly those of exports, upon resources.

Is it the view of the hon. Gentleman that there is a correlation between the quantity of manufacturing investment and the size of the investment grant? As the sums involved are so gigantic, can he elaborate to the House what that correlation is?

I think that the House will recognise that that is the sort of question of which one would need a certain amount of notice.

May I ask a more practical question? In order to attempt to improve the investment prospects for early next year. will my hon. Friend have an investigation into shortening the repayment period of the investment grant?

The Government have already twice shortened the repayment period. I cannot give any commitment beyond that.

Does the hon. Gentleman recall that on 4th February, this year, the President of the Board of Trade announced a study into the effect of investment grants on investments? Is that now the responsibility of some part of the hon. Gentleman's Department? If it is, will he say when the results of the study will be published?

It is the responsibility of the enlarged Department. The results will be published as soon as they are in a satisfactory form.

In the light of the Minister's reference to the necessity for consistency between investments and exports, do the Government really want a further rise in investment?

I do not quite see the point of that question.

May I put my Question in another way? If, as the Minister implies, a further rise in investment may clash with a rise in exports, and if the Government have not created room for both, do the Government really want a further rise in investment?

It is a matter of the quality and quantity of investment. Quality has to be taken into account as well. We are trying to get a better quality of investment which will give us the balance of payments result we require.

asked the Minister of Technology if, in view of the profits of the State electricity and gas boards, he will give a general direction to the boards to provide for a reduction of power prices for domestic rather than for industrial consumers.

No, Sir. The boards relate their prices to the associated costs, and it would not be in the national interest to deprive industrial consumers of price reductions warranted by the reduced costs of supplying them.

Although it is a triumph for public ownership to produce lower charges alongside higher profits and higher wages, is not my hon. Friend aware of the resentment among Labour supporters that some State boards seem to be much more generous to commercial companies than to the ordinary consumer?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that in the long-term development of the power industries it is essential that we should have clear criteria where the appropriate investment should lie, and for this reason there has to be a clear relationship between the pricing of products in different parts of the market.

Does the Minister think that we might now be able to make a move towards removing the ridiculous situation whereby consumers in Scotland pay about 26 per cent. more for their gas supplies than the average consumers in England and Wales?

What will be the exact impact on Scotland of the introduction of natural gas which, I believe, is due to come next year, I cannot as yet prophesy. All I can say is that, where it has been introduced, natural gas has been accompanied by reductions in tariffs.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that in the long term it is to the benefit of both domestic and industrial consumers for the C.E.G.B. and other generating boards in the United Kingdom to give power at special prices to large industrial consumers and energy-intensive industries—and to the aluminium smelters, which I welcome—and that there is scope for very much more of this kind of activity?

There is truth in what the hon. Gentleman says. The encouragement of bulk consumers gives a wider base for spreading overheads and can in the long term have repressive effects on price trends.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that one primary function of nationalised industries is the redistribution of wealth, and that therefore the decision to give preference to industrial users is a contradiction of a primary function of the public sector?

There may be a certain clash of interpretation of what is the primary function, but the one given by my hon. Friend is certainly not what I would envisage as the primary function of nationalised industry. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am sorry, but my hon. Friend asked the question, and I am giving him the answer. I think that this is mainly a role to be played by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Department of Health and Social Security.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the charge for electricity to domestic consumers in Scotland is less than the charge of all other area boards and that this is very much appreciated in Scotland?

I am grateful for some supporting information.

asked the Minister of Technology how many applications his Department has received from the Central Electricity Generating Board to build new power stations; what kind of fuel is to be used; and what kind he has authorised to be included in the next building programme.

Applications under consideration at 31st March, 1969, were listed in the Minister of Power's Report (House of Commons Paper 429). Since then the C.E.G.B. has applied for consent for a nuclear power station at Connah's Quay. The C.E.G.B. has recently been given consent for A.G.R. stations at Heysham and Sizewell B and an oil-fired station on the Isle of Grain; it will also be constructing the second half of the Drax coal-fired station, for which it already has consent.

Will my hon. Friend accept that the mining industry welcomes the decision that the Drax power station should be coal-fired, and will he give consideration to replacing old-fashioned coal-fired power stations by new coal-fired stations so as to ensure that the mining industry and supplies of coal shall not be reduced?

I cannot preclude the possibility that there could be more coal-fired stations, but I cannot go beyond that at this stage. I am sure that the mining industry, as my hon. Friend has said, welcomes the fact that the Drax power station is the biggest single project undertaken by the C.E.G.B. and will mean 5,000 jobs for miners.

Are sufficient power stations now under construction or in the pipeline to meet expected demands for 1975?

Yes.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement about the measures being taken by the Central Electricity Generating Board to restore full power on Magnox reactors.

I have nothing to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline Burghs (Mr. Adam Hunter) on 21st October, 1969.—[Vol. 788, c. 228–9.]

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the Central Electricity Generating Board expects to overcome the oxidation problem and restore full output at these stations; if so, by what means and by what date?

I wish that I could give the hon. Gentleman a full answer, but the Board is itself still carrying out its investigations. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate the intricacies of this, and until we have the Board's findings I cannot take the discussion much further ahead.

Will my hon. Friend impress on the Central Electricity Generating Board the importance of great frankness in this matter, so that there is no adverse effect in the long run on the reputation of British reactors?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is quite correct in the advice he offers.

asked the Minister of Technology when he expects to receive the report of his Advisory Committee on Units of Measurement on the decimal marker to be used for metric quantities.

Decimal notation for metric quantities is a standardisation problem; in this country it is a responsibility of the British Standards Institution and, worldwide, of the International Standards Organisation. If my right hon. Friend's Advisory Committee on Legal Units of Measurement has views on this matter, they will be put to B.S.I. to assist in the formulation of national and international recommendations.

Is not it true that the Advisory Committee on Units of Measurement is taking advice from industry and that this problem should be resolved on an a priori basis; on the basis that Continental industry already uses the comma, that it clearly delineates between metric and Imperial measures and is less likely to be confused with the dot notation in multiplication? Will the Minister kindly make a decision on this basis, so that the uncertainty may be ended and, in particular, new text books may be printed as soon as possible?

Our ambitions go far wider than the hon. Gentleman goes. Although the comma is used on the Continent, it is not the form which is used in many parts of the world. At this stage we are trying to establish whether or not an international consensus on the comma or the dot can be achieved.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the progress of Concorde.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the latest cost estimates for Concorde.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the progress of the Concorde programme.

asked the Minister of Technology (1) if he will make a statement on the progress to date and the forward programme of the Concorde project;

(2) when he will make his revised estimates on the cost of the Concorde project available.

The two Concorde prototypes have now completed 135 hours of flight testing. Prototype 001 first flew at supersonic speed on 1st October. Prototype 002 is at present undergoing a planned programme of modifications in preparation for flight test at cruising speed and will resume flying early in the New Year. The results of flight tests so far have been satisfactory.

The latest agreed Anglo-French estimate of development costs is £730 million at January, 1969, prices. This is currently being reviewed to take account of the devaluation of the franc and certain adjustments to the programme.

I will inform the House as soon as practicable of the results of this review.

Since this means that once again the cost of the Concorde is going up yet further, will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that, before any more prototype models or pre-production models are instigated or any further costs are incurred, he will make a statement to the House?

The programme is under continual review. As the House knows, I went to Paris to see M. Mondon in September, and he will be coming over for a further meeting in December.

During the months that lie ahead, as the tests reach their critical stage in the sense that we shall be able to assess them, it will be necessary for us to balance, on the one hand, the need not to lose impetus for the programme and, on the other hand, not to commit too many resources until we know whether or not the aircraft will be the success we think it will be.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us, whatever may have been our thoughts about the original Concorde estimates, agree with him on the issue of impetus. and hope that talk of cancellations will be kept to a minimum, as we should like to continue the project?

I have never spoken of cancellations although I have often been asked about them. I have tried to make it clear that the Concorde will develop its future according to the orders which are received for it from the airlines, and during this period of assessment I hope that the House will show some understanding and support for the biggest international project ever undertaken in the world and one of great importance to this country.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the livelihood of many people is at stake in the success of this project, and will he say when he will make the crucial evaluation he spoke of and give the green light to go ahead with the production model?

My hon. Friend knows that authorisations for production expenditure have been given, subject to the point which I have just made, and the Concorde's success will be assured when the orders are firm and production aircraft are being made for a customer.

Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that one can also add to the cost of Concorde by delay in giving the go-ahead for the next stage?

This is the balance which must be struck during the months that lie ahead. I think the hon. Gentleman and I see this in the same way.

Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that the cost element has from the beginning been part and parcel of the propaganda launched against Concorde, and will he assure us that when we come near to success he will not look back?

I understand what my hon. Friend is saying to me, but I cannot apologise to the House for keeping an eye on the cost. It is not my money that is being spent; it belongs to the taxpayer; and I am bound to balance up the estimated development cost against the estimated return on this investment. and I have done this in such a way,I hope, as not to shake people's confidence in the prospects of success.

Assuming that the tests continue satisfactorily, can the right hon. Gentleman say what progress is being made in cut metal for production to assure early delivery when that time comes?

This is the balance which must be struck in consultation with the French, who have been reviewing this matter themselves as well as with us. But, as I have just said, and as the hon. Gentleman knows very well, production expenditure has been authorised and metal has been cut. There is a Question on the Order Paper later about the production programme. However, as I think he knows, some further authorisation is now forthcoming.

asked the Minister of Technology what is the total number of male and female jobs, respectively, currently resulting from the establishment of advance factories allocated to Scotland in programmes announced since October, 1964; what has been the total cost of such factories to public funds to date; how many of them are currently untenanted; and what is the longest period of time for which a factory has been standing completed and unlet.

55 Ministry of Technology advance factories have been authorised in Scotland since October, 1964. 43 of these have been completed and 32 have been allocated. Employment at present provided in these factories totals 2,830–1.080 men and 1,750 women. Many of these factories have still to recruit all the labour they will need. Up to 30th September, 1969. expenditure—excluding cost of land—totalled £4,182,000. The longest period during which a factory has been vacant is three years.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that comprehensive reply. Could he tell the House what his predecessor at the Board of Trade never seemed able to tell the House, namely, the precise cost to public funds of each male job so far created in these factories?

I am afraid that I cannot. It is not possible to say what the average cost per job is.

Would my hon. Friend remind the House that when these firms go to development areas they employ only a relatively small number of people? As an instance, Honeywells started with 60 people and now employ close on 6.000 people in my constituency.

I am grateful for that information.

asked the Minister of Technology what proposals he has for participating in the development of the marine environment; and if he will make a statement.

The Department provides the chairman and a member of the interdepartmental Advisory Committee on Marine Technology which has been charged with this duty. A report on its first year's activities is shortly to be published.

What is meant by "shortly"?

The report is being printed and it is hoped that it will be published towards the end of this month and that there will be a Press conference to launch the report.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a further statement on the position of Upper Clyde Shipbuilders.

Upper Clyde Shipbuilders Limited has received the financial assistance recommended for it in June by the Shipbuilding Industry Board, which continues to keep in close touch with the company.

Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that the best way to squash the ill-founded and mischievous rumours circulating last week about the continued survival of Upper Clyde Shipbuilders would be for the firm to obtain some new orders? Would the Shipbuilding Industry Board and his Ministry give every possible assistance to the company in its current search for new work?

I am sure that the ordering prospects for the company are improving, but I also think it best, as I have said in the past, not to encourage an atmosphere of crisis. The company, which has received this assistance, the board and ourselves are in continuing contact.

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that Upper Clyde Shipbuilders has now established a degree of credibility and is in the market for further orders? I hope that it will be left alone so that it can get on with the job which the Government have helped it to perform.

I share that view.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a further statement on the proposed ore terminal and steelworks on Clydeside.

On the question of the terminal, I have nothing to add to the reply which my right hon. Friend the then Minister of Power gave to my right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Bottomley) on 11th July. The Corporation has said that it does not expect that an entirely new integrated steelworks will be required before 1975. —[Vol. 786, c. 337.]

Does the hon. Gentleman still take the view that the Clyde has unique deep water advantages, and does he recall that on 11th July the Minister of State said that the negotiations between the British Steel Corporation and the Clyde port authority would be concluded before the end of the year?

On the last part of the supplementary question, I still take that view, and the British Steel Corporation is well aware of the advantages of the Clyde.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on the proposal for a BAC 3–11 aircraft.

The British Aircraft Corporation has continued to keep me informed of its progress in preliminary design studies and in discussions with airlines.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much launching aid is likely if the development of this aeroplane should go ahead, and what is the estimated in-service date if a decision is taken within, say, the next few months?

It would be wrong for me to anticipate the proposal to be brought forward by B.A.C., and I should have to consider whether this information was covered by commercial confidentiality. B.A.C. understands very well that it will have to produce its share of the cost and some assurance of a market. I am awaiting the full proposals from the Corporation with great eagerness.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the impending decision by airlines such as B.E.A. and other European operators for an aircraft of this size? Does not this mean that it is urgent and that we must have a decision with regard to either this aircraft or the European airbus?

Yes, but eagerness for a decision does not necessarily mean that the decision is being delayed by the Government. I must make it absolutely clear that I have not had a firm proposal from B.A.C. on a basis on which it would be sensible or possible for me to adjudge on its request.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will make a statement on progress with Black Arrow.

The next test firing of the Black Arrow satellite launcher is planned to take place from Woomera later this month. Work is well advanced in preparation for a further launch planned for 1970 and on the first utilisa tion satellite due for launch in 1971. Further satellites, including one to carry a weather sensing experiment, are being studied.

Can the hon. Gentleman, first, confirm that there was no evidence of design fault in the last failure of Black Arrow and, secondly, say whether a study is being made of the cost and feasibility of Black Arrow being mounted on Blue Streak to give us an independent capability for commercial purposes?

I think that the hon. Gentleman received the Press statement which my right hon. Friend sent to him. There is nothing to add to that. There was no evidence of basic design failure. Should like more notice of the second part of the supplementary question.

As one who has had the good fortune to go to Woomera, may I ask whether the Ministry could make available places on the fortnightly Ministry of Technology plane to Woomera for Members of Parliament other than myself because it is important that hon. Members should see what is going on there?

That is a separate question, but I understand that that is precluded by the agreements which the Government have with the airlines.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will give a general direction with a view to improving steel deliveries to the constructional steel contractors, builders and similar enterprises and steel stock holders, in view of representations expressed in recent months by steel users and merchants with consequential resort to foreign steel.

The Corporation has produced record amounts of constructional steels and imports have fallen; further increases in output depend on improving capacity rather than issuing directions.

Why is it that Ministers in this House continue to whitewash the Corporation whereas all consumers of constructional steel and every other kind of steel are complaining about lengthening deliveries and poor service? Why is it that steel imports continue to rise if the Steel Corporation is so utterly efficient, as Ministers wrongly allege?

In view of the strength of feeling which the hon. Gentleman says exists in the country, I am surprised to find that we have had fewer than 12 complaints on this matter. Also, it is difficult to see how the hon. Gentleman can reconcile some of the other points which he has made with the fact that this year imports have fallen by over 25 per cent. and that the British Steel Corporation's output has reached record levels, being 180,000 tons higher than last year. Far from whitewashing the Corporation, it is the private sector which for the last 21 years has not expanded its output of these steels at all.

Would my hon Friend agree that the chief reason why we have to import steel is that for 10 to 15 years the private enterprise steel industry did not plan for sufficient capacity?

In addition to my hon. Friend's point, it is important to bear in mind that the steel industry exports twice as much, in terms of value, as it imports. Last year's favourable balance of payments on steel was £133 million.

Could the hon. Gentleman inform the House about the special position of nickel-bearing steel and what measures are being taken to help in the present crisis?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman realises that this matter is out of the Government's control, being a problem arising in another country. Many consumers may find, if they contact the Corporation, that there are available substitutes which they have never considered in the past.

asked the Minister of Technology if he will now make a statement on the discussions between the Central Electricity Generating Board and interested parties on the pollution of the Thames and the experimental suspension of gas washing in relation to the conditions imposed on the power station in 1927 and 1937.

The Central Electricity Generating Board recently put a proposal to my right hon. Friend to dis continue flue gas washing at Battersea "B" generating station for an experimental period of two years, and this is being considered. Meantime a temporary suspension is in operation to deal with emergency conditions in the Thames.

Will the hon. Gentleman ask his right hon. Friend to bear in mind that the gas washing at Battersea Power Station adds to the pollution of the Thames and that the regulations under which the gas washing takes place date back as far as 1926, so that it would now be appropriate, 40 years later, to examine the situation and try to get new regulations to prevent pollution of the Thames and to lay down rules for gas washing?

I am glad to find one hon. Member opposite who reflects our modernising zeal.

asked the Minister of Technology whether he is satisfied that the conditions governing applications by January, 1970, for licences in new areas of the North Sea and Irish Sea are such as to ensure an adequate exploration effort; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir; I have nothing to add to the information given by my right hon. Friend the then Minister of Power on 23rd July.—[Vol. 787, c. 1734.]

Has the Minister had time to assess the impact of the conditions of independent companies working with nationalised industries being favoured and proposals in the Queen's Speech concerning international oil companies? Is the Minister satisfied that this will not hold back oil and natural gas exploration rather than encourage it?

There are many grounds for confidence that that is not likely to happen, one of which is that the geological prospects for the area will determine the interests of the companies rather more than any other factor. I believe that my right hon. Friend got the balance right in his announcement during the summer and we are looking forward to the applications, which are now being invited and will be assessed by early next year.

asked the Minister of Technology what information, and in what form, he proposes to circulate to industry outlining the advantages of industrial development in both intermediate areas, particularly in Yorkshire and Humberside as well as in the development areas in the north of England; and if he will summarise what is available in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The Government have already announced the advantages and are giving them publicity but, with permission, I will circulate a summary in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

In welcoming the fact that there is to be publicity, may I ask the hon. Gentleman that care should be taken to publish this widely to industry so as to make it possible readily to assess the advantages and disadvantages of going into the different types of industrial area, including intermediate areas?

I can agree with that supplementary question. We will give as much publicity as possible.

Will my hon. Friend take into account that in South Yorkshire, because of the rundown of manpower in the mining industry, there are not the jobs which should be there? Will he use whatever powers he has with other Ministers to ensure that new jobs and industries are introduced into South Yorkshire?

The Local Employment Bill which is at present before the House is designed to meet exactly the problem which my hon. Friend raises.

Following is the summary:

Financial Assistance in the Development and Intermediate Areas

• The following forms of special financial assistance are available to industry in the development areas:—
• (i) Investment grants at a rate of 40 per cent. (20 per cent. elsewhere) of new plant and machinery provided for use in a qualifying process;
• (ii) Regional employment premium (30s. per week for each full-time male worker);
• (iii) Training assistance from the Department of Employment and Productivity in the form of grants towards on-the-job training costs and by the provision of training courses;
• (iv) Assistance from the Department of Employment and Productivity towards the transfer of key workers;
• (v) The following incentives are available under the Local Employment Acts:
• (a) Ministry of Technology factories for rent or sale (in the case of certain projects new to the development areas the first two years may be rent free);
• (b) building grants at a rate of 25 per cent. of eligible costs to firms building and occupying a factory or an extension, or buying a building not previously occupied. In the case of certain projects new to the development areas, the rate of grant may be 35 per cent.;
• (c) loans at moderate rates of interest;
• (d) removal grants towards certain costs incurred in transferring an undertaking to a development area.
• On 14th November, 1967, the President of the Board of Trade announced that additional assistance would be available in areas likely to be particularly affected by colliery closures (the special development areas). These extra incentives, which are available only to new projects setting up for the first time in a special development area include:
• (e) Rent free periods of up to five years in Ministry of Technology factories;
• (f) Operational grants at a rate of 10 per cent. per annum of cumulative expenditure on buildings and plant and machinery (net of investment and building grants) in each of the first three years of operation of a project in the special development areas;
• (g) Loans towards the balance of building costs (not available elsewhere in the development areas).

In exercising its powers under the Local Employment Acts the Ministry is required to have regard to the relationship between the expenditure involved and the employment likely to be provided, and to any consequential effects on employment elsewhere in the development areas.

The amounts, terms and conditions of loans under the Local Employment Acts, and of removal grants and operational grants, are recommended by the Ministry's statutory Advisory Committee, an independent Committee of business and professional men. The Committee also examines applications for building grants, involving building costs of over £10,000. Before making a favourable recommendation, the Committee has to he satisfied that there are good prospects that the undertaking seeking assistance will be successful. Applicants for loan assistance are expected themselves to provide a reasonable proportion of the finance for a project.

Assistance under the Local Employment Acts is directed primarily towards manufacturing industry. Since 31st August, 1968, assistance has not been available for projects in the service industries (with the exception of projects which bring into the development areas at least 50 additional jobs)

Under the provisions of the Local Employment Bill, which is at present before the House. the Ministry of Technology and the Department of Employment and Productivity will be able to make available in the intermediate areas certain assistance already available to industry in the development areas. Subject to the passage of the Bill through Parliament, it is intended that the following incentives will be available in the intermediate areas on the same basis as in the development areas:—

• (i) Training assistance from the D.E.P. ((iii) above);
• (ii) Assistance from the D.E.P. for key workers ((iv) above);
• (iii) Ministry of Technology factories for rent or sale ((v)(a) above);
• (iv) Building grants at a rate of 25 per cent. (in some cases 35 per cent.) of eligible building costs ((v)(b) above).

asked the Minister of Technology if he will give a general direction to the British Steel Corporation to renegotiate the terms of the new conditions of contract for home sales recently constituted by the Corporation with the private and nationalised industries concerned in the light of the representations he has received on the subject; and whether he will make a statement.

No, Sir. This is a matter within the British Steel Corporation's own management responsibility, subject to consultations with the Iron and Steel Consumers' Council which, I understand, are nearing completion.

Will the Minister say, first, whether the nationalised industries have approached him about the way they feel that these terms of contracts are wrong? Secondly, did he consider that it was consultation for the British Steel Corporation to notify the Iron and Steel Consumers' Council and publish the terms before there was any discussion? Surely, that is the action of a massive mono-politic monster which was bound to bring bad will to customers.

I am at a loss to understand the hon. Member's concern on the last point since, to the best of my knowledge, as was pointed out to him in a letter, the consultative council was told two months before publication—

There were no negotiations.

It was open to the council to make representations and it was told two months in advance. I can legitimately ask the hon. Member what could be more reasonable than that.

Mr. Emery, Question No. 35.