asked the Minister of Public Bulding and Works why the largest building firm in Bishop Auckland, whose main works is less than one mile from the site of the new Crown Office and which employs mainly local men, was not invited to tender for the construction of the new Bishop Auckland Crown Office.

The required completion date could be met only by an industrialised system, which local firms could not offer. The national contractor appointed will however employ local labour and local sub-contractors.

Would not it have been better from the point of view of regional employment to go for a conventional brick building perhaps taking slightly longer to build? I assure my hon. Friend that local builders build quickly and very competitively. Can he give some home that at least as much as possible of the sub-contracting work will go to local builders?

My hon. Friend was one of the hon. Members who pushed us to have the completion advanced, to have the job done as quickly as possible. Of the three large nominated sub-contractors, one for the electrical work and one for the lifts have already been placed with Northern firms. There is another on the ventilation and heating which I think may well go to a northern firm. With only one exception, the other 12 sub-contractors are northern firms.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is the cost to public funds of maintaining buildings of historic interest open to the public; and what revenue he receives for this purpose from the public entry fees and private donations, respectively.

I estimate the current annual maintenance cost of monuments in my Ministry's care at £4 million approximately. The revenue is £¾ million, and less than £10,000 is donated from private sources.

I appreciate that answer, and thank the right hon. Gentleman for it. It is necessary to keep these buildings open. Will he do the best he can to increase the revenue from the public, who benefit enormously from seeing these historic buildings?

I think that the whole House agrees that the care of the ancient monuments is of first-rate concern. It is equally true that our guardianship is extending the whole time. I must keep a proper balance between the revenue needed to look after the building and the prices the public can pay to go in.

Whilst I welcome my right hon. Friend's reply, may I suggest that he should consider the big increases private owners have thought it proper to charge for public admission? I suggest that he continues to review this matter. Visits to Ministry sites are very good buys. Even if there were a 50 or 60 per cent. increase, they would continue to be extremely good buys in comparison with the private sector. Perhaps if there were an increase in the revenue more might be done in the way of maintenance.

I have said that this is really a matter of balance. I keep prices of admission constantly under review. My hon. Friend may be aware that there have recently been some changes upwards in, for example, the price of admission to the Tower of London.

Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the sales of season tickets to his Ministry's buildings are going this Christmas?

I cannot say what the position is at this moment, but the sale of season tickets generally is very satisfactory.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will make a statement on the current value of orders for new construction as published by his Department.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has made of output in the construction industry for 1969.

Figures for the third quarter of 1969 indicate that orders for new work this year continued to fall. As I said in reply to the hon. Members for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) and the Isle of Wight (Mr. Woodnutt) on 12th November, I expect the decline in output in 1969 to be about 3 per cent. from the 1968 level.—[Vol. 791, c. 388.]

Is it not the case, however, that some of the figures for the first nine months of this year show declines of up to 20 per cent. in public sector spending on construction compared with the first nine months of last year? Is not that a rather more serious picture?

Any decline in output is bound to be somewhat serious, but there was an exceptionally bad winter, and, therefore, the first nine months of this year may have been somewhat overbalanced by that. I hope that the final figure at the end of the year will not be quite so bad.

Is the Minister aware that the industry has described this as the worst setback in 20 years? What does he propose to do about it? Cannot he give any hope for the industry? Is he aware of the evidence to the Bolton Committee that there is too much do-it-yourself going on now, with consequent damage to the fabric of buildings?

There is a large number of questions to be answered all in one here. It does not behove any Minister in these circumstances to be self-satisfied about the situation. I agree that it is difficult. I am somewhat consoled, however, by the knowledge that, taking the last 10 years at constant prices, the average annual output was £3,300 million in the construction industry. Taking the appropriate years of Conservative Government. it averaged £3,200 million, but under a Labour Government it has averaged £3,650 million.

Would my right hon. Friend not agree that if there is slack in this industry which needs to be taken up the Conservative councils which have considerably reduced their housing programmes despite the need in their respective areas might do more to build the houses people need?

I certainly think that more might be done in housing. I know that my right hon. Friend has made considerable efforts to improve the conditions for house-building generally in the private sector as well as encouraging the public sector to build more houses.

Would the Minister not agree that, apart from the exceptional winter of 1963, this is the first decline since 1951?

It depends on what sort of a decline we are talking about. We are talking here about a decline from a very high level indeed to a level not so high. It is still much higher than it was in the years when the friends of the hon. Gentleman were in control.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will list in the OFFICIAL REPORT the value of output in the construction industry for each of the past 10 years.

Statistics of the value of construction output at current and at constant prices appear in the Annual Bulletin of Construction Statistics, which is available in the Library.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for telling me where the information can be obtained. Is he aware that it is evident that the value of output will be down this year and that the actions of the Government are mainly, but not completely, responsible for it? What will he do about it?

I cannot help suspecting that the hon. Gentleman is trying to get a second bite at a cherry we had earlier. To take the first of the ten year figures, in 1959 the value of output in the construction industry, at current prices it is true, was £2,399 million; last year it was £4,567 million.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what is his policy in regard to the flying of flags above or in the precincts of the Houses of Parliament.

The flying of flags above the Houses of Parliament is a matter for the authorities of the two Houses

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that these symbols have a significance which cannot be disregarded and that it is incongruous that the Welsh national banner should not be flying about the Houses of the only Parliament that Wales has? Would he try to ensure that the Red Dragon of Wales will fly alongside the Union Jack above the Palace of Westminster at least until the time when Wales has her own Parliament, where she can fly her flag?

As long as the hon. Gentleman will accept that my right hon. Friend is not the arbiter in this matter, I do not see why I should not write to the authorities of the House drawing attention to the desirability of the Red Dragon flying on St. David's Days.

While the Minister is sending his letter will he bear in mind that there would have to be room for the Sal, ire alongside the others?

I anticipated that if I gave an affirmative answer for Wales some of my Scotch friends—

Scots. Scotch is whisky.

This is in keeping with the proximity to Christmas. I anticipated that some of my Scots colleagues would want the same done. I will certainly do the same so far as Scottish days apply.

When the Minister is writing his letter would he point out that the Union Jack is a national flag and not the flag of the Conservative Party?

I would rather not get further embroiled in flags because I might find one for the Forest of Dean.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what steps he has taken, and what further steps he proposes to take, to assist the high-grade, light-weight aggregate-producing industry.

The Department continues to encourage more extensive use of light-weight aggregate by using it widely, by supporting research and by publishing information and technical guidance.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this industry is operating at a fraction of its capacity and is facing a very difficult situation? Would he bear in mind that his right hon. Friend's predecessor gave certain undertakings to the industry? Would he look at these again and see what can be done, in the considerable capital development programme of his own Department, to encourage those who have invested considerable amounts of capital in the industry?

I will certainly look at the undertakings that are alleged to have been given. My Department uses lightweight aggregates as far as possible. Apart from that, it must be admitted that the designer must be left to choose his own materials. All that we can do is to draw his attention to the choice that exists.

Would the Minister bear in mind that the points of view put forward by the hon. Lady are very much more in keeping with the apprehensions of the industry than those put forward by the Minister? Is he aware that the aggregate industry and the whole of the construction industry are concerned at the decline, which is the first since 1963, and which the Government Front Bench do not seem to be treating with the urgency it demands?

I must repeat what my right hon. Friend has said. It may be a decline, but, like all declines, it depends where we start from. It is no good hon. Gentlemen opposite criticising us on this issue because they have not got a leg to stand on.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he expects to introduce legislation to implement the Phelps-Brown Committee Report on Labour-only Sub-contracting.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works when he now proposes to introduce legislation for the purpose of regulating labour-only subcontracting in the building industry.

I have nothing to add to my answer to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Gresham Cooke) on 12th November.—[Vol. 791, c. 388.]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate that a delay in introducing this legislation, forecast in the Gracious Speech, is lending credence to the rumour in the industry that the Government do not intend to introduce such legislation or will at best introduce a minor sop to correct some rulings in the courts?

I am always very happy on the rare occasions when I can agree 100 per cent. with the hon. Gentleman, and we can go forward together in disagreeing entirely with that rumour, which I had not heard. It is the Government's intention to legislate, and I only hope that when the plans are announced the hon. Gentleman will be as happy with the proposals as I am sure my hon. Friends will be.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this subject receives widespread support throughout the House? As the Bill will probably have to be rather technical to deal with all the problems, would he agree that we ought to have as much time as possible? Could we have the Bill at the earliest possible moment?

I would have thought that to have the Bill at the earliest possible moment was self-evident. When it is ready, that will be the earliest possible moment.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will preserve the facade of Richmond Terrace by incorporating it in the design of the new Government buildings on that site.

I am aware of the hon. Member's views on this difficult subject, which together with all other views will be considered at the appropriate moment.

As this method has been used so successfully in Regents Park, would the Minister consider using conservation methods in the most historic conservation area in Britain? Why must we substitute something that looks like Noel Coward's birthday cake?

I am reminded more and more how, whenever any piece of architecture is designed, it is bound to create a considerable variation of opinion. It is one of the sad things of life. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman in his birthday cake allusion. Many people like the building; I have no doubt a number of people will not like it. I have promised to consider all these matters together, and I will.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the party opposite has a pretty rotten record of Philistinism in this respect? Is he aware that I have a list of buildings which have suffered under them and that I would be happy to send it to him?

I am grateful but I am much more concerned with the present position on the Whitehall redevelopment.

While ignoring the self-righteous interventions from his own side of the House, would the Minister agree that there is now a mounting case for an inquiry into this and other aspects of the whole Whitehall plan?

As the hon. Gentleman is aware I never closed my eyes to the possibility of a public inquiry. All I have said is that I want to see what happens as a result of the present display now being held, if I may put in a commercial, in the Crypt of the Banqueting House, Whitehall.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will make a statement about the official visit he paid to Kenilworth Castle; and if he now proposes to make changes in his Department's supervision of this historic site.

I welcomed the opportunity to meet representatives of the owner, the Kenilworth Urban District Council, with which my Department enjoys excellent relations. In particular, I noted that the standard of upkeep and the facilities we provide are much appreciated by visitors. I do not, therefore, propose to change these arrangements. They will, however, be reviewed regularly.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the residents of the Kenilworth area are very pleased that he and his Department are taking such an interest in this most valuable and historic site? Could he say what effect on attendance the efforts of his Department have had over the various years in which it has taken an interest?

I am very grateful for the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. I am glad to say that the number of visitors has increased substantially, from about 61,000 in 1956 to over 114,000 in the first ten months of this year.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works how many of the building works undertaken by his Department for the Ministry of Defence within the past five years have been found to be structurally deficient during or after construction.

Eighteen, Sir.

Is not that rather too many? Will the Minister make available to the House a list of barracks, married quarters, officers' and sergeants' messes, and instructional blocks in which design faults have caused costs to exceed original estimates by more than 20 per cent.?

Eighteen is too many. One is too many. But these things occur. In general, I am very proud of our record, and I do not believe that it is in any way out of the way. Apart from the cost of remedying Ronan Point-type buildings, the actual estimated cost to the public of remedial works has been £120,000.

Can my right hon. Friend tell us how many major new works have been carried out for the Services during the past five years and at what approximate cost?

My hon. Friend has made a very valid point. During these years there have been 2,000 major new projects for the Ministry of Defence, and the approximate cost has been £330 million.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will give an estimate of the percentage increase in building costs over the next two or three years in the light of increased labour and material prices.

No, Sir. It is too early to say.

But is my right hon. Friend aware that building interests claim that these elements will increase building costs by nearly 26 per cent. in the next two years? If this is so, ought not something to be done to convince local authorities that they should act much more expeditiously in considering planning applications for new building before funds are eroded?

I do not think that I could accept my hon. Friend's figure on costs, though he is quite right to be concerned about them. I know that the industry generally has a very good record of absorbing rising costs. As to the second part of my hon. Friend's supplementary, I think that probably it would more appropriately be addressed to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the increase in building costs of factories and plants this year in many places is something like 12 per cent? How does he expect industry to play its part in our economy when it is faced with increases of this sort—and more to come?

Rising costs in the construction industry are always of concern to industry, and, indeed, to my Department, but we are very well aware of the very fine efforts which the building industry generally has made to try to keep its costs down.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will state the estimated cost of work done by his Department in providing accommodation and services for Her Majesty's Armed Forces arising out of the recent emergency in Northern Ireland; and what representations he has received expressing dissatisfaction with the provisions made.

£162,000: I think it is generally appreciated that the Department has done a good job in difficult circumstances, and my right hon. Friend has received no representations of dissatisfaction.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the fact that his Department has received a great deal of praise for the work it has done, especially from the rank and file of Servicemen, and not only from them but, in fact, from all those concerned with the emergency?

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for making that statement in this House. I was in Ireland recently and discussed with most of the Service chiefs, including General Freeland, the job of work which was done by my Department. I did not have to ask them; they volunteered praise for the whole of my Department. I had very great pleasure in meeting my right hon. Friend's staff and expressing that appreciation to them.

Would the Minister be good enough to circulate in the OFFICIAL REPORT a list of the actual undertakings, and could he say how much of the work was done by private contract?

A considerable amount would have been done by private contract. Here we were dealing with an emergency, and all routine procedures had to go out of the window, and my technical officers, along with representatives of the Forces, had to get to work on buildings of all kinds—dilapidated buildings, old mills—and get contractors in straightaway. What proportion of the work was done by private contract I am not at the moment in a position to say. I doubt whether there would be any great advantage in listing in the OFFICIAL REPORT all the buildings we had to take over. I would do it, but I cannot see the advantage of doing it.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he is satisfied that no discrimination on the grounds of religion or race is permitted to apply in the engagement and promotion of workpeople by his Department in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

Yes, Sir. The Department's recruitment and promotion procedures throughout the United Kingdom are based on the merit, qualifications, experience and general suitability of candidates for the posts concerned without any discrimination on grounds of religion or race.

Can my hon. Friend say whether everything possible in Northern Ireland has been done to ensure that there is no discrimination in Northern Ireland as far as his Department is concerned?

I can assure my hon. Friend that, as far as it is possible to discover, there is no evidence that there has been in my Department any form of discrimination. To ensure that there could not be the possibility of criticism of any kind, we reviewed and strengthened the whole of the procedures, and I am now convinced that it would be very difficult indeed for anyone to criticise us on this matter.

Would the Minister agree that it is of the utmost importance that his Department, and, indeed, all other Departments of this Government, should give a lead in this matter so that it can be shown that they are acting in a nondiscriminatory manner which will make it more difficult for other agencies in Northern Ireland, at local level and at Stormont, to carry out the practice of discrimination?

I will accept that it is the responsibility of Government Departments to give a lead in this matter. As far as my right hon. Friend and I are concerned, there will be no suspicion of any kind—at least, as long as we are in the Department—that anyone has been discriminated against on the question of religion.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Ministry of Technology has now adopted the practice, when invitations to tender are sent out to private contractors, of drawing attention, on the invitations, to the requirements of the Race Relations Act? Is this general Government practice, and is it being done by the Ministry of Public Building and Works with invitations to tender in Northern Ireland?

Well, what the Question is about, of course, is—[Laughter.] I will deal with the supplementary question. The Question is about the recruitment and promotion of staff in our Department. I have answered that. I do not think the supplementary question arises as far as Northern Ireland is concerned.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what further representations have been made to him about the effect on the building industry of the Government's credit squeeze; and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works if he will now make a further statement on his discussions with the construction industry regarding credit difficulties for builders.

I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Members for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi), Clitheroe (Sir Frank Pearson) and Londonderry (Mr. Chichester-Clark) on 12th November, 1969.—[Vol. 791, c. 389–90.]

Does not the Minister appreciate what a disappointing answer he has given? Does not he realise that the credit squeeze has caused a serious drop in house building and that as long as the Government insist upon this fraudulent S.E.T., which is costing more than £150 a house, he is restricting much needed house building?

I have on a number of occasions tried to deal with this question, and each time I have said that if I am given personal examples of builders who are facing great difficulties caused by the credit squeeze, I shall be happy to look into them. During the past months I have not received a single notification. While I accept that builders are in some difficulties, and have great sympathy with them, I wish that hon. Gentlemen opposite would give me a little more evidence.

Did not the Minister see a reference in The Times to the N.E.D.C. report on construction, which suggests that the decline in house building will continue and that one of the main reasons for the decline will be the credit restrictions and the financial difficulties of builders? Is not that some evidence for him to consider?

As I have said, I am aware of the difficulties facing builders. Whether those difficulties are caused by the credit squeeze or by a lack of mortgage finance, which from March of next year should not present much difficulty, is often debated. I fully appreciate that house building is not in a perfect situation at the moment, and I am willing to give all the help I can. One practical way in which I have given help is by seeing that my Department promptly pays all its accounts. I wish that this lead were followed generally.

As my right hon. Friend is aware of the difficulties, what representations is he making to his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the need to reduce the interest rates? If he wants more evidence about the difficulties of the housing industry generally, I suggest that he reads the report of the Estimates Sub-Committee that dealt with housing sub sidies, which was published last Thursday. There is plenty of evidence there.

If my hon. Friend thought that I was after evidence, I have not been as clear as I would have wished. I said that I would like cases to be put to me of builders who had personally been in difficulties because of this, and that I would try to help. I gave an example of practical help by the prompt payment of accounts. On the general position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I repeat that builders play their part as members of the community and most of them are patriotic enough to accept this situation. As the economy of the country improves, so I hope will their position.

Will the Minister say whether either he or his predecessor, in response to requests made earlier this year, has made representations to the Treasury for house builders to be put in the category of priority bank loans, and what was the result of those representations? If those representations were not successful, will he make further representations?

I think the building trades employers are perfectly capable of making their own case, as they have, and very well. Obviously my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I consider the matter. But I go straight back to the main question, which is to get the economy straight, and that is a matter for my right hon. Friend.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what estimate he has made of the economic effect on the building industry of metrication; and whether he will make a statement.

It is too early to give an estimate, but the rationalisation of the construction industry as a result of the change to metrication will far outweigh the once-and-for-all conversion costs.

Will the Minister say when an estimate will be available, and will he ensure that the estimate gives the increased cost to the customer as well as to the industry?

I will certainly bear that in mind as we go along. I do not think I can say when the estimate will be available between now and 1972, when the construction industry will go fully metric, but I will keep the hon. Gentleman informed.

asked the Minister of Public Building and Works what was the number of bankruptcies in the building industry in 1969 to the latest convenient date; and whether he will make a statement.

I would refer the hon. Member to my reply to the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Donald Williams) on 19th November, 1969.—[Vol. 791, c. 319.]

Is the Minister aware that from the beginning of 1965 to the end of September this year no fewer than 3,650 builders have gone bankrupt? Is not this an extremely serious situation which emphasises the Minister's responsibility for making representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that builders should be put into the priority class of borrowers?

Any bankruptcy, particularly one in the construction industry, is a matter of grave concern to the country, but the number of bankruptcies this year and last year are not at variance with those of previous years.

Will my right hon. Friend say how large were the building firms that went bankrupt? It is well known that bankruptcies of small builders who have one ladder and a wheelbarrow have been occurring ever since the building industry began.

In an industry that has 89,000 builders, it is almost inevitable that the majority of bankruptcies should be of the sort described by my hon. Friend.

The Minister said that the figures were not at variance with those for previous years, but in 1965 there were 644 bankruptcies, and the figure was running at the rate of 860 in 1967 and 833 in 1968. How many bankruptcies must there be before the Minister shows concern?

I thought I had shown considerable concern; perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not listening to me. The number of bankruptcies for the first nine months of this year, to 30th September, was 569, which is not a variance with previous years.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had in the last two months on the question of nurses' salaries; and if he will indicate the terms of his reply.

Representations have been received from the Scottish Board of the Royal College of Nursing, from four Members of Parliament and from five outside bodies. In replying, I have explained that, while the views expressed have been noted, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further at this stage when a pay claim is under consideration by the Nurses and Midwives Whitley Council, which is responsible for the negotiation of nurses' pay.

The House will be gratified to notice that the Government have referred to lower-paid workers and their exclusion from the terms of the White Paper on Prices and Incomes. In that context, will my right hon. Friend give a categorical assurance that the Government will not restrict the nurses to the 2½ per cent. wage freeze to which they were subjected under the previous Administration in the 1960s?

My hon. Friend wants me to do what I said I should not do, and that is to comment upon pay negotiations when they are in progress. I think my hon. Friend knows my feelings and my sympathies generally on this issue.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us about the timing of these negotiations, and when it is expected that a conclusion will be reached, as many people in Scotland are concerned that the pay and conditions of nurses may be falling behind those of other more vociferous groups?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is aware from his knowledge and experience that the rates of pay are to be reviewed from 1st April and that negotiations are going on now.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent representations he has received on the need to designate as trunk roads the approach roads to the Forth Road Bridge; and what reply he has sent.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received recently from local authorities asking him to have the cost of the approach roads excluded from assessment of the total cost of the Forth Road Bridge, so that toll charges might be reduced.

I have received no such representations recently.

That may be true, but my right hon. Friend knows that repeated representations have been made by Members of this House and by local authorities on this question. If these roads were designated as trunk roads, whilst there might still be a need for some tolls on the bridge they would not need to be increased as they were recently.

I have had representations in the past and I have also had Questions, and my hon. Friend will appreciate that I have also given answers in the past. The answer that I give today will be no better than the ones that I gave before. The inclusion of the approach roads was part of a bargain which included an outright Government grant of £4,650,000 and the waiving of interest amounting to £1·66 million during construction. This was a fair and generous arrangement, and I am not prepared to reopen the matter now.

rose—

Order. It would help the Chair to know of groupings in advance. Mr. Hunter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a number of local authorities on both sides of the river feel that it is fair and reasonable that such a gesture should be made? Does he agree that if this were done the Fife County would benefit greatly, being in a development area?

I am sure that the people locally would benefit, but it would be at the expense of the construction of roads in other parts of Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many criminal cases have been heard on appeal in the Court of Session in the last three years; and how many of these appeals have been successful.

Details of appeals to the High Court of Justiciary are contained in the Criminal Statistics, Scotland, for 1968, which was published as Cmnd. 4125 in September last.

I thank my right hon. Friend for drawing my attention to this publication. Is he aware that these figures show a small number of successful appeals in Scotland compared with 58 per cent. of successful criminal appeals in the same three-year period in England? Does he agree that this cannot be explained by any simple suggestion that the English courts are totally inefficient and the Scottish courts totally efficient, and that this matter merits some concern?

It may merit some concern to my hon. Friend, but it is far too immediate a conclusion to be drawn from this quick comparison. There are differences in court structure and practice in the two countries. To the extent that any inquiry is needed, I would remind my hon. Friend of the decision, announced in the House on 3rd December, by my noble Friend the Lord Advocate and myself to appoint a Departmental Committee on Criminal Procedure under the chairmanship of Lord Thomson, the terms of reference of which will cover appeal procedures.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the crucial distinctions between the two legal systems is the almost entire reliance in the Scottish system placed on professional judges and the minimal reliance placed on lay jurisdiction, and that that could readily explain the apparent difference in the number of successful appeals?

The existence of a professional judiciary dealing with summary cases throughout Scotland might be expected to produce a different result from the position in England.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland on how many reservoirs owned by water undertakings in Scotland boating is now allowed; and how many have rules or bye-laws.

Boating is allowed on two reservoirs and fishing from boats on 85. No bye-laws have yet been made under Section 63 of the Countryside (Scotland) Act, 1967.

Does the Secretary of State agree that this is a disappointing amount for boating and for tourism and recreation? What positive efforts have the Countryside Commission and the Government made to encourage water authorities to increase the available facilities?

The record is not as bad as all that, remembering that the bulk of the population of Scotland is pretty near other forms of water. For the hon. Gentleman's satisfaction I have drawn the board's attention to its powers under the Countryside Act to permit the use of land and water in which it has an interest for any form of recreation. It will shortly have discussions with the Countryside Commission for Scotland about this matter.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the public ownership of waters in Scotland is widely regarded as vital for the provision of recreational facilities and that the proposed sale by the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board of the River Shin fishing in my constituency has caused widespread dismay and anger throughout the Highlands? Will he, therefore, intervene to stop the sale going through?

I think that my hon. Friend ought to see what powers I have in respect of many of the matters that he asks me to do. However, this matter is not covered by this Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many children were receiving part-time education at the most recent date for which figures are available; what percentage of this total was in Glasgow; and what were the comparable figures for the same date in each of the previous three years.

At end October, out of a total of about 926,000 pupils, the number on part-time education was 8,734, the majority of whom were losing less than one day per week. Twenty-eight per cent. of all the pupils affected were in Glasgow.

Is it the case that the number of children affected appears to have increased substantially this year compared with previous years? Will the Secretary of State see that in future we get rid of the scourge of part-time education in schools?

The hon. Gentleman should appreciate that we are working towards this end. We have recruited a greater number of teachers than ever before. Since 1964–65 the number has gone up by 3,500, and the entry of students to colleges of education is at a record level.

While recognising the efforts made by the Government, and in particular the substantial incentive payments for teachers to teach in areas of acute shortage, may I ask my right hon. Friend to use his considerable powers of persuasion to encourage local authorities which are well staffed to operate a fairer system than they are now doing?

My hon. Friend should realise that we have been doing this over a considerable period and we are getting a certain measure of generous co-operation.

For how long will the right hon. Gentleman accept this totally unacceptable and worsening position? What further steps does he propose to improve staffing in these schools?

The only way to improve staffing is to get more teachers. We have 3,500 more teachers than we had in 1964. We are recruiting teachers to the profession, and entry to the colleges of education is at a record level.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the to al number of crimes of violence and murders, respectively, made known to the police in the most recent 12-month period for which figures are available; and what were the comparable totals in the same 12-month period five, 10 and 15 years previously.

The number of crimes of violence made known to the police in Scotland in the 12-month period ending 30th September, 1969, was 3,478. The comparable totals in the year ending 30th September, 1964, 1959 and 1954 were 2,177, 1,398 and 849 respectively. The latest corrected figure of murders made known to the police in Scotland in the year ending 31st December, 1968, was 37, and the comparable totals for the year ending 31st December, 1963, 1958 and 1953 were 14, 15 and 14.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the figures for crimes of violence are quite frightening and show an alarming increase? Does he recall telling one of my hon. Friends on 2nd December that assaults on police officers in the course of their duties last year were more than half as great as in any of the previous 10 years? Now that Parliament has abolished capital punishment, what further steps does he propose to take to protect police officers in the course of their duties?

The hon. Gentleman should not anticipate decisions elsewhere. This House has decided its attitude. The hon. Gentleman should be reasonably fair about it. We have put in a tremendous effort and we have had co-operation from the police, public and local police authorities. We managed to stabilise these figures last year, and this year they are showing a decline of just short of 5 per cent.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek to postpone the changes in the appeals procedure contained in the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act, 1969, in view of the recommendations of the Wheatley Commission.

I do not at present propose to seek Parliamentary approval for bringing Part III of the Act into operation.

That is good news as far as it goes. But since the Wheatley Commission confirmed unanimously and unequivocally the views which we on this side of the House pressed, will the Government now ensure that no system is introduced whereby the same body is the final judge in cases to which it is also a party?

I do not know how local government reorganisation affects this at the moment. It is far too early to anticipate decisions which may be taken concerning functions in reorganisation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will implement that section of the Police Act 1964 which would enable a person to sue a chief constable as representing a police authority rather than the individual police officer against whom he may have grounds for action.

Yes, Sir. The relevant legislation is now Section 39 of the Police (Scotland) Act, 1967, and I have made an Order bringing this section into operation on 1st January, 1970.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to implement the proposals for divorce law reform contained in the Scottish Law Commission Report, "Divorce—the Grounds Considered", Command Paper No. 3256.

This has never been thought a suitable subject for Government legislation but I have made it clear on a number of occasions that I should be willing to consider a request for drafting assistance should an hon. Member come forward with a Bill on lines which appeared likely to be generally acceptable.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not a matter of drafting as much as a matter of time that is at issue, and that when so many representations have been made, from the Scottish Law Commission, the Church of Scotland and the Law Society of Scotland, it would be very unsatisfactory if Scots Members were not given a chance to come to a decision on this important matter in the same way as English Members last Session?

My hon. Friend should appreciate that he must obtain the will of the House in respect of the principle, on Second Reading. The last occasion when this was done in respect of Scotland was when a former hon. Member—Mr. Forbes Hendry—managed to obtain a Second Reading on the nod on a Friday afternoon.

Will the Secretary of State refrain from the bad habit of other Government Ministers of providing time for selected Private Members' Bills, and instead treat all such Bills on their merits? Will he not give preference to divorce Bills or other hobby horses of hon. Members such as the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Dewar)?

If we are to treat all Bills on their merits we must remember that some may merit special treatment.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, despite the report of the Scottish Law Commission on divorce reform, there is widespread opposition in Scotland to any fundamental change in the divorce law, especially on the question of unilateral divorce after separation for five years?

That is a valid point. That is why I say that this matter requires the consideration of the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further representations he has had from local authorities regarding his offer to meet part of the cost of remedial work and other expenditure incurred in strengthening multi-storey blocks of flats.

At a meeting with my noble Friend the Minister of State the local authorities concerned asked for a higher rate of grant than 40 per cent. and made representations about the method of calculating the expenditure eligible for grant. I hope to announce a decision shortly.

When will the right hon. Gentleman make an announcement on this? Does not he realise that certain local authorities face very high costs? Will he give an assurance that he will limit the amount that will be passed on to the ratepayer?

What the hon. Member says is true, but he and many others who sit with him are constantly telling me about Government expenditure. I hope that he will support us when we make increases. I appreciate the difficulties, but we are in consultation on the matter and I shall make a decision as soon as I can.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the Coatbridge Town Council suffers very badly from the 60–40 per cent. ratio, in view of the high-rise flats in the town which have had to be strengthened? Can he say whether the announcement that he will make shortly will be of a much more generous contribution than the 40 per cent. that has been contributed hitherto?

I am afraid that I cannot anticipate the announcement that I shall make.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that this is not a question of increasing public expenditure? This must be paid for either out of local expenditure or central expenditure.

I accept that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will extend the period for appeals from persons who consider themselves eligible for the new electoral register but whose names do not appear on it.

The period for claims and objections has now expired. I did not feel justified in proposing regulations to extend it since, if this were done, electoral registration officers might be unable to publish the register on 15th February as required by Statute.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all the reports from the electoral registration officers indicate that many thousands of young people who should have registered as eligible were not included in the original lists? Can he say what is being done to make sure that these young people are registered in the way that they are entitled to be?

I admit that concern was expressed in the reports that I heard. It came also from electoral registration officers. Despite the care with which they conducted the canvass, they have not succeeded in getting the names of all young persons who are qualified. There has been a period from 28th November to 16th December in which to rectify the position. Efforts have been made by way of national and local publicity, including radio and television broadcasts, to try to get a better result. I hope that we shall see some improvement resulting from it.

Can my right hon. Friend be a little more encouraging? Is he aware that in some instances the omissions have been as high as 50 per cent. among young people? Nothing could be more disillusioning than for a young person wishing to vote to find his name not on the roll. Would my right hon. Friend make some special provision in this case, because of the peculiar nature of the problem?

We are governed by Statue in respect of all the steps that we can take. As soon as we realised that there was this considerable gap—and my hon. Friend played his part by telephoning secondary schools about it—all that we could do was to make special efforts to bring it to the attention of young people. We cannot do more. The initiative from then on rests with them.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will improve the sign-posting system in the House of Commons for visitors.

There is already a fairly full system of sign-posting in the House of Commons. If the hon. Member has any particular point in mind perhaps he would let me know.

Is my right hon. Friend surprised to hear that some officials from the Consumers Association spent over 15 minutes trying to find their way to the Ministerial Conference Room on the ground floor; that they asked many people, including four policemen, and nobody knew where it was? Will he consider improving facilities for both visitors and Members to enable them to find their way round this charming but extremely archaic building?

I was not aware of this until now. I cannot clutter up the House of Commons with signposts as though it were Clapham Common.

In view of the uncertainty of the result of tonight's vote, is it not important to have a signpost pointing to the right Lobby for Members on the Government benches?

Signposts are apparently in the hon. Member's mind. It is up to each hon. Member to do what he wishes.

asked the Lord President of the Council how often he studies the Refreshment Department's complaints book; and when this was last brought to his notice.

I have been asked to reply.

This is not good enough. The Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee should study this book. The Chairman will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that he was not aware of the existence of this book until this Question was put down. Does he take any action about complaints that are put into the book?

With great respect to the hon. Member, I have more individual hon. Members and right hon. Members talking to me about problems and complaints than are ever likely to appear in any complaints book. I would have thought that personal contact between myself as Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee and Members was far more valuable than any complaints book.

Is the Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee aware that the complaints book has been lost? I should like to find it, in order to write in it some very complimentary remarks about the pleasantness of the servants of the House.

I am sure that the hon. Lady will be delighted to look for it—and I will help her.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will move to set up a Select Committee to investigate recent allegations of fraudulent abuse of the supplementary benefit system.

No, Sir.

Since one of the most serious features of these allegations was that abuses have been known within the Ministry but have been covered up, is it a satisfactory position that the Ministry should remain judge and jury in a case of this kind?

I think that my right hon. Friend and his Department have made their position quite clear. I do not wish to set up another Select Committee. I have set up so many Select Committees in the past—[Interruption.] The hon. Member must listen to my answer. If he wants to stand up and ask a supplementary question I do not mind. I have a long list of Select Committees here, and I am not going to set up another one.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that, few as these abuses are, they tend to discredit the whole social security system in the eyes of the public? In seeking to deal with these abuses will he be careful not to return to such a close system of vigilance that people who ought to seek assistance refuse to do so?

That is an important point. But I am not setting up a Select Committee.