asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is now able to give the net cost to public funds of the ceremony of the investiture of the Prince of Wales held at Caernarvon on 1st July, 1969; and whether he will make a statement.

The net cost of the Investiture was about £130,000. As the House will recall, a limit of £200,000 was set and I am very pleased to be able to announce that the cost of this magnificent occasion has turned out to be considerably less than even that modest amount. This was due to receipts from the sale of chairs and commemorative medals being greater than anticipated and to a very strict control being kept on expenditure.

Is my right hon. Friend further aware of some of the indirect benefits received—for example, that the American National Geographical Magazine, which charges about 27,000 dollars per page for advertisements, devoted 18 pages to the Investiture, and that this can result in nothing but an increase in tourism for Wales?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that significant free advertisement that Wales obtained. But tourism in Wales increased substantially during the past summer, and I have no doubt that now that the advantages of Wales are known it will increase still further.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what consideration he has given to the Buchanan proposals submitted for a new town at Llantrisant; and what action he proposes to take.

I am still considering the views of all the bodies who have been consulted about the proposals.

Before my right hon. Friend embarks upon what I consider to be the expensive luxury of creating another conurbation, will be consider the views of his hon. Friends and, indeed, of local authorities in South Wales before coming to a decision?

I can assure my hon. Friend and the local authorities concerned that their views will receive the utmost consideration.

Will my right hon. Friend undertake that, before he accepts the scheme in any form, there will be a proper survey of what could be achieved in the old town if the equivalent amount of money were spent in housing and in all other respects? Does my right hon. Friend realise that there is mounting opposition to the whole idea of a new town at Llantrisant?

My hon. Friend may be assured that the well-being of the valleys is a top priority with the Government, and that the facts to which he draws my attention are very much in my consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will initiate a special study of the social and industrial requirements of the valley communities of South Wales and the cost of meeting those requirements.

My right hon. Friend does not think that any special study is required. The Government have these matters under continuous review.

Is my hon. Friend aware that a study of this kind is absolutely necessary, particularly at the present time, and would be of far greater use for the improvement and maintenance of, in many cases, the existing thriving valley communities?

I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates that the needs of the valley communities are very much in the mind of my right hon. Friend and his Ministerial colleagues. We have, of course, studied the problems of the valley towns in "Wales: The Way Ahead". We are in touch with the university colleges which are making studies into special aspects, and the Welsh Council is also studying this aspect.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that some valley communities, such as the Rhondda, have had a surfeit of such investigations, and that what we need now is action and some money to enable us to meet the requirements which are well known?

I am sure my hon. Friend recognises that we are taking action in certain very important matters, for example the clearance of derelict land and the improvement of housing.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his assessment of the excess in the number of jobs created in Wales in 1969 over those lost.

The information is not yet available.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Government's poor record in this field explains the extent of Welsh migration and unemployment? Is he aware that there were 64,000 fewer jobs in Wales for men in 1969 than in 1964, and that the proportionate amount in Britain would be 1,306,000—a disaster which would result in bringing the Government crashing down?

The biggest disaster the hon. Gentleman could have would be if he could not quote figures which were disturbing for Wales. I assure the hon. Gentleman that he must look on the other side of the ledger as well. Industrialists are taking an ever-increasing interest in Wales, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, are moving in there in considerable numbers. It is little short of staggering that so many new jobs have been created.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the assessment requirement would be much more bleak if the run-down of manpower in the mining industry had not been paralleled by the substantial new development policies pursued by the Government?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend. It is true that the run-down in the pits, which began long before we took over responsibility, and which would have taken place whoever was in authority, has been the main challenge which has faced me as Secretary of State, my predecessors, and my colleagues, in trying to get additional employment.

I recognise the difficulties confronting any Government in respect of an area such as South Wales in particular, but can the right hon. Gentleman go further than he did in his answer to the hon. Member for Carmar- then (Mr. Gwynfor Evans) and say whether these figures are being looked for, and when they will be available?

The figures will be available within a few months.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to increase the mileage of motorways in Wales.

I would refer the hon. Member to my replies to his Questions on 28th February and 25th March, 1969, and my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda, West (Mr. Alec Jones) on 4th November, 1969.—[Vol. 778, c. 396; Vol. 780, c. 291–2; Vol. 790, c. 123–4.]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that those replies were totally unsatisfactory, and they mean that by the middle 'seventies the Welsh proportion of British motorways will be only one-sixtieth?

By the middle 'seventies Wales will see the biggest road programme she has ever known, and the extension of dual carriageway roads on a scale that we could not expect even a few years ago.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that when the M4 is pushed further westwards to Bridgend and eventually to Pontardulais, for the whole of its new length it will be up to full motorway standard?

It will be either full motorway standard, or dual carriageway standard, which is very near to that. I should not like to give the assurance straight away, but it will be very soon.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now state when he intends to publish his new proposals on the reorganisation of local government in Glamorgan and Monmouth.

Within the next few weeks, Sir.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that some of us wish that he would not produce any new proposals at all, because we very much resent being tied to the English bandwagon in this matter, particularly so because there is now nearly 100 per cent. agreement on the most practical proposals produced by his Department in July, 1967?

I was not unaware of my hon. Friend's feelings, but I must tell him that I shall announce my proposals within the next few weeks.

When the right hon. Gentleman spoke in the Welsh Grand Committee not long ago, he said that he was changing the name of Monmouth to Gwent. When does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do this? It is a little difficult for those living in Monmouth to know which to call themselves?

I have not noticed that difficulty, and I am there as often, if not more often, than the hon. Gentleman is. When the proposals for local government reform are advanced, the hon. Gentleman will find that this change takes place.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many dual-carriageway trunk road schemes are expected to start in Wales before the end of the financial year 1970–71; and what is the estimated total cost.

Nine schemes at an estimated cost of nearly £35 million.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that that figure is encouraging, but, in view of the urgent employment needs of Wales, will he make every effort to extend the motorways westwards as soon as possible? Does my right hon. Friend further appreciate that this can be done only by increased public expenditure, to which the Conservative Party is so much opposed?

I agree with every word of my hon. Friend's statement.

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any steps are being taken to expedite the completion of the South Wales Motorway, the part which is under-developed between Reading and Chippenham, and also whether he will bring forward, if possible, the extension of that motorway to the west, to Swansea?

I am giving urgent consideration to the question of the extention of the M4 on my side of the Severn Bridge. If the hon. Gentleman had read the newspapers recently, he would have noticed that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport had let contracts for the other side of the bridge.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make it official policy to have long-term geriatric facilities available at all local hospitals in Wales in order to facilitate visits by relatives and friends and in order not to move old people from their local environment.

The recent Report of the Committee on the Functions of the District General Hospital recommended that all hospital geriatric treatment should be based on the district general hospital, but recognised that small hospitals could be used for patients not requiring the full facilities of the district general hospital. These recommendations are still under consideration, but we fully sympathise with the need to keep old people as close to their homes as possible.

Will the right hon. Lady go further and say that where there is a local hospital and nursing facilities are available, she will make the geriatric facilities, not the intensive care facilities, available, because it is a great hardship for old people and their relatives and friends if these people are moved from their local environment?

I cannot give an absolute assurance in every case, but I understand what is in the hon. and learned Gentleman's mind, and we certainly would not wish to move old people if it were not necessary to do so.

Can the right hon. Lady say how many small hospitals of this type in Wales are being closed, and how many geriatric cases will have to move?

I think that if the hon. Gentleman wants the information in such detail he should put down a Question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales why draft plans for by-passes in Welsh towns such as Welsh-pool are officially categorised as confidential, in view of his policy to invite public discussion of such plans before decisions are taken.

The proposal which I eventually publish as a draft order under the Highways Act, 1959, is normally the result of careful consideration of several earlier proposals. If every one of these earlier proposals were published while I was considering it, this would cause widespread and quite unnecessary alarm and blight. The Highways Act provides for public discussion after I publish proposals in draft. I am always ready to change my proposals if the discussion indicates that this is desirable.

The right hon. Gentleman does not quite take my point. Perhaps I might give as an example the Welshpool proposals, in respect of which a public meeting is suggested. The public do not know what the proposal is, whereas local bodies such as the council and the N.F.U. have seen the plans. Should not the public see them if we are to have informed discussion at a public meeting?

Yes, Sir. A public meeting will be held in Welshpool as soon as possible after draft orders have been published to explain the proposals to the community. I am prepared to vary the proposals if I am satisfied that public opinion requires it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales (1) what was the total number of new houses completed in Wales for the year 1969, and for the last quarter, for both public and private sectors;

In the public sector 7,998 houses were completed in Wales in 1969, 2,210 of them in the last quarter. The corresponding figures in the private sector are 9,306 and 2,353. At the end of the year there were 8,810 under construction in the public sector and 9,747 under construction in the private sector.

The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that these figures, complicated as they are, are very unsatisfactory and that they show a rundown in house building in Wales since 1964. Can he say what are the main reasons for this disappointing result?

I have been here a long time, as you know, Mr. Speaker—indeed, I came to this House before you—and it is a long time since I heard anything like that. The hon. Gentleman knows that we are breaking records there. In the last 10 years of office of the party opposite, the average number of houses built in Wales was 13,200. Our average has been 19,000 in five years. The hon. Gentleman will have noticed, I hope with satisfaction, that the figures of houses under construction are very encouraging.

But the right hon. Gentleman gives very misleading figures to the House. Does he not realise that at the end of 1964 in Wales there were 21,130 houses under construction? Why have the figures dropped so much?

If the hon. Gentleman wants figures he can have some more. In the 13 years when hon. Members opposite were in power—I hope they do not mind my referring again to the 13 wasted years—only in 1964 did they build over 14,000 houses a year.

Will my right hon. Friend take to task all those local authorities, particularly those falling behind, which are now controlled by the party opposite?

I know that my hon. Friend represents one such area where the housing record last year was pitiful.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will state the various factors which have led to a reduction in the number of new dwellings built in Wales during the past 12 months; by what proportion current building of new houses differs from production in 1964; and what steps he will take to increase the building of new houses in the future.

The chief factor is that waiting lists have shortened and demand diminished as a result of the very high rate of building achieved in the last five years. 18,969 dwellings were completed in 1964. There are 18,500 houses currently under construction. I will take every possible step within my powers to ensure that an adequate rate of building is maintained in the future: it is necessary to do this both to eliminate local shortages and to help with the clearance of unfit houses which have been with us far too long.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that present output is barely above what it was in 1964, whatever he may say? Is he further aware that whatever figures he may give the House today, the deepest anxiety about the position has been expressed by the architectural and building professions?

We want to build the maximum number of houses according to the maximum need of the community, and we also seek to give attention to the unfit houses that can be brought into a state of fitness.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his answer confuses itself? First of all, he says there is no demand. Secondly, he says that there are a great number of unfit houses. Is it not a fact that the figures, however he may look at them, are bad and could be a great deal better?

The hon. Gentleman ought to understand that unfit houses need not be pulled down or deserted if they can be put into a proper state of repair. There are many thousands of such houses in Wales that we are determined to restore and provide with modern amenities.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many authorities in Wales—I could quote some to to him—which are within easy measurable distance of wiping out their housing lists?

We all know that there has been a radical change in the waiting lists of local authorities and I welcome what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he will take to ensure adequate compensation for owners of homes and business properties in Wales, whose premises are affected by development projects, in cases where the effects are of an indirect nature.

The whole compensation code regarding the acquisition of land and the carrying out of works by public authorities is currently under review. This includes the question of injurious affection to which the hon. Member refers.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that fairly encouraging reply, may I ask whether he will treat this matter with a good deal of urgency because many areas in South Wales are subject to this kind of problem?

I am well aware of the anxiety that this problem causes. That is why Her Majesty's Government are giving attention to it.

asked the Minister of Technology what representations he has received from the Motor Agents Association about the effects of the Government's policies on the motor industry; and what reply he has given.

Representatives of the Association met my right hon. Friend the Paymaster-General and me on 15th October last year and asked for a relaxation of the hire-purchase restrictions on the sale of used cars. After careful consideration of their arguments we felt unable to agree to their request. Since then my right hon. Friend has had three further letters from the Association.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that sales of motor vehicles in 1969 fell significantly compared with the previous year and that this situation, if continued, is likely to be damaging to efficiency and exports? Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to his right hon. Friend that if there is to be some relaxation of Government restrictions on this industry it might be wise to have some modest relaxation now when demand is slack rather than wait till after the Budget?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am in very close contact with the industry and with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that the arguments he has put forward are very well understood. But the policy adopted has to have some regard to the general economic framework of policy, and undoubtedly one of the benefits that will accrue from our stronger economic position is a greater degree of security in the industry in the future.

Referring to the general economic situation, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that the Chairman of Vauxhall Motors has given an undertaking similar to that given by Lord Stokes just before Christmas, namely, that his firm would continue to keep up its record export levels were a relaxation in the home market now permitted? Will my right hon. Friend bear that in mind when discussing the matter with his right hon. Friend?

One of the most welcome aspects of the whole story has been that as a result of very close contact between the industry and the Government, the industry has expressed through its principal spokesmen an understanding of the need for exports and has done very well in this respect.

Will the right hon. Gentleman represent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that if any concession is deferred till the Budget the public may equally well defer their purchases till then and plunge the industry into worse trouble on the home market?

If it were necessary for me to refer passages in HANSARD to the Chancellor I should be happy to do so, but I am sure that he will notice them.

asked the Minister of Technology what progress he is making with his study of investment grants.

Good progress has been made. The next stage of the study, which involves a direct approach to industry, is to begin very shortly.

How long will it take the Ministry to recognise the self-evident fact that investment grants are wasteful and very expensive? Would it not be more sensible, in order to stimulate investment, to introduce a system of freer depreciation which would stimulate productive and profitable investment?

These are old arguments that we have had in the House over quite a period. The hon. Gentleman is saying that we should not have a study at ail but that we should reverse engines on a decision that has been taken. I would point out that a degree of confidence in the stability of Government measures to encourage investment is an essential part of the further growth of investment.

Will my right hon. Friend not exclude from his conclusions, when he gets the report, the possibility of more discrimination in this field so as to exclude giving very large grants to industries and regions which are not using them as any kind of incentive at all?

Of course there is a selective element built in in respect of development areas, and undoubtedly the growth of new industry in those areas owes something to that degree of selectivity. My right hon. Friend is now bringing forward a Bill introducing another element of selectivity, in respect of balance of payments tests. I repeat, if any policy is to have its effect, there must be a measure of stability and confidence on the part of industry as to the continuation of it.

But would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, despite investment grants, investment in manufacturing industry has declined as a percentage of the gross national product over the period of their existence?

Such preliminary studies as I have asked for indicate that the investment grants have certainly cushioned what would otherwise have been a more serious fall in investment at comparable periods in the trade cycle. The current investment intentions made available for us show that there is some reason to be confident about the future.

asked the Minister of Technology what is his latest estimate of the aggregate cost to public funds of investment grants in the current financial year.

£590 million, of which provision for £560 million has already been sought. It is expected that the remainder will be sought in a spring Supplementary Estimate.

When investment grants reach the scale of £600 million a year, is it not evident that they are approaching almost the level of a scandal, particularly when so much of the money goes to capital-intensive industries which would probably make the investment anyway? How does the hon. Gentleman justify the prospect of paying out over £90 million to one company in taxpayers' money over the next five years?

It is expected that, over a period, the investment grants will not cost more and might even cost less than if the previous incentives had been continued.

Yes, but will the hon. Gentleman go on, despite the criticisms of his hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, West (Dr. Bray) and of Her Majesty's Opposition, paying large grants from the taxpayer to capital-intensive projects with low use of labour to go to areas where they would have gone anyway?

Whether they would have gone to the areas anyway is extremely doubtful, but the facts are that the investment grant was not primarily intended to increase labour in particular areas. There are other methods of doing that. The investment grant was meant to increase the investment in the area and the efficiency of industry there, and to make the area more competitive with other parts of the country.

Would my hon. Friend note that many who are in favour of giving investment incentives are particularly unhappy about the effect of this power on the present scheme—that is, that the Government are giving very large sums of money and we cannot see anything like a comparable benefit in return?

This, of course, was dealt with in the Estimates Committee's Report and some of it should not be dealt with piecemeal. There will be an official reply by the Department on these points.

asked the Minister of Technology what assessment he has now made of the effect of investment grants on the levels of investment generally and on employment in the development areas; and if he will publish these findings in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

The effectiveness of investment grants is currently the subject of a special study. Whilst it is not possible to separate the effect of different measures, the development area package has clearly helped to reduce regional disparities in unemployment, notwithstanding the rapid run-down of traditional industries in development areas.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he has caused considerable mystification by his assertion earlier that the regional variation of the investment grant was not primarily designed to increase employment? if that is not the purpose, what is the purpose? If there are more sophisticated purposes, may we have evidence that they are being fulfilled?

I said that it was not necessarily to increase employment. The White Paper on Investment Incentives, in which the investment grant scheme was announced, said that grants would be available whether or not the effects of the investment were to provide employment.

Has my hon. Friend observed the judgment of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries in its report on the coal industry that the effect on the development and special development areas of this and other Government assistance measures has been

"pitifully slow and pitifully small"

There is a study going on of the effects of investment grants. While investment may have been slower than we would all have hoped, there is no doubt that investment in areas where old industries are running down or dying out is much greater than it would have been had there not been such grants.

asked the Minister of Technology what is his latest estimate of the probable percentage change in manufacturing investment between 1969 and 1970.

asked the Minister of Technology what is the latest estimate he has made of the expected levels of fixed investment in the manufacturing industries and distributive trades, respectively, during 1970; and if these levels conform to the economic strategy being pursued by the Government.

Information on the levels of investment expected by industry in 1970 was given in the results of the latest Investment Intentions Inquiry issued on 13th January. The expected levels are not inconsistent with the Government's economic strategy, given other claims, particularly those of exports, on resources.

Even if the Ministry's latest forecast should be fulfilled, how does the hon. Gentleman explain the fact that, notwithstanding the glories of the investment grant system, the peak in the rate of growth in the investment cycle on this occasion should be so much lower than in the last two years?

The hon. Gentleman would be well advised to study the figures. If he looks at the position of their peak year, which stood out like an iceberg in 10 years of low investment figures, in 1961, he will find that, in the two years following, the decline in the level of investment was nearly 20 per cent., whereas, as a result of the differential rate of investment grant during the period following the 1966 peak, the fall as a percentage of g.d.p. was only from 4·6 per cent. to 4·4 per cent.

Can the hon. Gentleman make it clear that the figures revealed by the latest survey are deemed to be adequate and consistent with the Government's economic strategy, particularly in the light of the Prime Minister's avowed declaration that, after exports, investment was the next priority in the Government's approach to economic management?

The hon. Gentleman will recognise, as both sides have said in the past, that confidence is an import. ant element in determining the level of investment, and the balance of payments priority is therefore an absolutely correct one in establishing that confidence. But the level which is envisaged in the latest intentions survey is above that envisaged in "The Task Ahead".

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will publish the breakdown of the capital expenditure programme of the Post Office for the next three years.

Yes Sir; with permission, I will circulate the information requested in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

I look forward to that, but would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, if the figures correspond to the White Paper already published, they will show that, by 1972, the Post Office will be the biggest capital spender in the Government, at nearly £2 million a day? In order to reduce this burden, is it not sensible to allow the public and British industry to buy their telephones direct from the suppliers rather than through the Post Office?

I confirm that the figures will show an increasing rate of investment, but I certainly do not draw the conclusion which the hon. Gentleman does in his supplementary question. I think that the country generally welcomes the fact that a public enterprise with the initiative of the Post Office is investing money and developing an excellent communications system for Britain.

Is there a proposal to devote a little more capital to providing people with telephones? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a year's delay in getting one in Northampton?

I am not aware of the particular instance which my hon. and learned Friend mentions about his constituency, but of course the waiting list has been drastically reduced. The fact that we are proposing to allow the Post Office to invest this tremendous amount of money in the development of the communications system will illustrate our anxiety to improve that system.

In view of the dominating scale of Post Office expenditure among the nationalised industries, will the Minister give an assurance that the Corporation's accounts will be published in a form at least as detailed as that of the old Post Office accounts?

It will be for the Post Office to decide the exact form of its accounts, but we shall, of course, undertake that they will be no less detailed than those of any other authority responsible to this House.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he will issue a general direction to the Post Office that they should take steps to ensure that letters and cards, whether first- or second-class postage rates, posted to the House of Commons should be delivered in under four days.

No, Sir.

Is it not right that constituents who wish to raise urgent matters which they feel that their Members of Parliament should deal with, should have those letters delivered here as quickly as possible and without delay? Members want to get on with their work and want their constituents to be assisted in all possible ways. Surely preference should be given to matters like this?

I am aware of my hon. Friend's concern, but I am advised, that, as a general rule, first-class letters and postcards are delivered to the House on the working day after posting and that second-class mail normally takes a day longer. If my hon. Friend has any specific complaints in mind, I hope that he will pursue them with the Post Office.

I have sent details but have had no satisfaction—

Order.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a steady deterioration in the second-class service, not necessarily only that involving the House of Commons? What steps is he taking to get the Post Office to put this right?

Neither my right hon. Friend nor I have any responsibility for the day-to-day operations of the Post Office. If any hon. Member has complaints of this kind, he should take them up with the Post Office.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give a general direction to the Post Office Board that, in re-pricing telephone calls when the sixpenny piece is abolished, they shall not allow the price to rise above its present level.

No, Sir, but the Post Office will consult the Users' Council and me before introducing many major tariff changes.

Yes, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, since the minimum price, which is equivalent to 6d., would be 1s. If there were an increase of that order, the fact that extra time is given will not help, and that it is absolutely essential that there should be a minimum charge for a minimum time on the telephone for people using public call boxes and so on, particularly those without their own telephones?

The Post Office is aware of this and is arranging for the conversion of call boxes to take the 2 new pence piece, which is equivalent to 4·8 old pence. Therefore, I do not think that the fears being expressed about an automatic increase in the minimum rate charge in the call boxes are called for.

Will my right hon. Friend consider making representations to the Chancellor that the sixpenny piece be retained?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who is an avid reader of HANSARD, will note that point.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will now reduce the levy on television companies, in view of the difficulties which will face broadcasting developments in certain areas.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will reduce the levy on independent television companies; and if he will make a statement.

I have just received the Independent Television Authority's detailed assessment of the effect of the levy on independent television. I am studying its case but I am not yet able to say what the outcome will be.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of the smaller television companies, like Border, which operates most efficiently in my constituency, will not be able to go in for full colour programmes unless the levy is halved or taken off? That would deprive my constituents and those in the Border area of an efficient, up-to-date television service. Will my right hon. Friend speed matters up in the interests of the smaller companies?

I am dealing with the question as quickly as I can. I received the report on Friday and spent the weekend with it. I am conscious that the smaller companies are adversely affected, but they are also adversely affected by increasing costs and the fact that the income from advertising has not been as great as was expected.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's extreme dilatoriness over this matter, which has been becoming increasingly evident over the past few months, will he undertake both to publish the Cooper Brothers' report when he receives it and to act upon it immediately?

I cannot understand what the hon. Gentleman means by that supplementary question. I was told by the I.T.A. that it would give me the report as soon as it could. As a result of the very full investigations made by the accountants advising the I.T.A., this took longer than expected. I received the report on Friday afternoon last and spent the weekend reading every word of it. It is a very long report, and it is not yet possible for me, with my advisers, to reach any conclusions about it. The suggestion that there is any delay on my part or in my Ministry is absolutely unjustified. The report is confidential and I could not undertake to release the whole of it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some television companies are a great deal less poverty-stricken than others? This crisis will not be solved simply by cutting the levy. Can we be assured that we shall have full information about the finances of these companies, and that this will be followed by a searching examination of the structure of I.T.V. as a whole?

It is true that some companies are not as badly off as some of those worst affected by the factors which I described in answer to another supplementary question. I shall see what information I can provide to the House before we move further on decisions that should be made.

Is the Minister aware that it would be satisfactory to everybody if a searching inquiry could be made into the relationship of different companies and their general profitability? Does lie realise that the extra levy has a tremendous effect on companies such as the one operating in the West Country, and that the only result can be a lowering of standards or a reduction in staff, both of which would be very bad for television?

I am concerned that whatever comes out of this examination will allow independent T.V. to keep the programme standards which it has established, and to improve them where it can.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that, while many of us believe that it is right to clobber the profits, some of the miserable people running television companies are now lowering the standards on the production side, starving their producers so that they cannot put on decent productions? Will he make arrangements to attack the profits but to allow the companies the money for the productions?

As I said in answer to another supplementary question, I am anxious that programme standards should be maintained, but I am not aware that there has been any reduction in them as a result of the Chancellor's action last year. Programme standards are being maintained, and I have had assurances from the companies that they will continue to maintain them.

The dangers were pointed out to the Minister from this side of the House over six months ago, and he is only just coming round to making decisions on them. May I have assurances from him that even if the report cannot be published in detail in its original form we shall receive a great deal of the information, because it is clearly the most up-to-date and important information that there is?

I shall see that as much of the information as possible is released, but a great deal of it is confidential to the programme companies, and it would be unfair to release the information that they have provided for the inquiry without their agreement.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if he will give the Post Office Board a general direction that an annual report be published on the activities and cost of the recently appointed research team headed by Lord Snow.

No, Sir. It is for the Post Office to decide whether to publish such information.

Cannot the Minister at least give us more detailed terms of reference for the activities of that body? Will he make some comment on the statement by Lord Hall that members of it will not even be allowed into the Post Office?

It is not for me to comment on the detailed workings of the Post Office. The hon. Gentleman and I served on the Standing Committee which helped to pass the Post Office Act. We went through those labours to establish a Corporation that would get on with the job. We should let it do so, and not interfere in such details.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what is the deficit on the British Broadcasting Corporation's broadcasting activities for the year 1968–69.

The sum of £5,091,985.

Will the accounts of local radio be kept separate in future? Is it true that the local radio deficit will be about £4 million by the time the licence fee goes up?

The B.B.C. will show the details of these accounts in its annual Report and Accounts in the same way as it has produced details in the past, including the figure that I gave in my original reply. I think that it will be able to satisfy the anxieties expressed about expenditure of this kind.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications if, so that Merseyside can get adequate three-station reception in colour, he will ensure that the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Television Authority expedite the alterations to the Moel-y-Parc transmitters.

No, Sir. The Moel-y-Parc transmitters which will transmit B.B.C. Wales and independent television (Harlech) programmes are not intended to serve Merseyside.

But since British colour television is so good, is not it natural that people with colour television sets want to receive colour programmes? Is the Minister aware that many people on Merseyside cannot receive B.B.C. 1 in colour?

The Merseyside area is served from the Winter Hill transmitting station, which broadcasts a colour version of B.B.C. 1, B.B.C. 2 and I.T.V. A local relay station must be built to improve the service to some 90,000 people in Liverpool who cannot receive the Winter Hill transmissions satisfactorily.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications whether he is aware that there are many workers in the Post Office Corporation with take-home pay of less than £12 per week; and, in view of the Government's policy to assist the lower paid workers to increase their incomes, if he will issue a general direction to the Post Office Board that they should increase the pay of their lower paid workers.

The Government's views on low-paid workers are set out in the recent White Paper (Cmnd. 4237) and will no doubt be taken into account by the Post Office and the unions in future pay agreements. No direction is called for.

We want to see the Government taking practical steps to implement their declared policy that it is their intention to help the lower-paid worker. Will not my hon. Friend ask the Post Office to do that by increasing the wages and salaries of its lower-paid workers?

If the Post Office were thought not to be tackling the problem of lower-paid staff in a proper manner, the first remedy would be to refer the matter to the National Board for Prices and Incomes. But the Post Office is considering several pay claims, and we know from informal discussions that careful thought is being given to the lower-paid staff.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what representation his Department has at the International Telecommunication Union.

My Department is represented at all the major conferences and meetings of the International Telecommunication Union held at Geneva or elsewhere.

Can my hon. Friend assure us that he is satisfied that other interested bodies in this country can take a full part in the activities of the I.T.U. as well as his Department?

Yes, Sir. The representatives of private operating bodies such as the Post Office, Cable and Wireless, and manufacturers and scientific organisations may also attend certain meetings of the I.T.U. if the bodies they represent are recognised or approved by my Department.

Does the Frequency Advisory Committee still exist? If so, when did it last meet?

The Committee still exists but, without notice, I could not give the hon. Gentleman information about when it last met. I will write to him.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications what decisions were made at the Tokyo Conference of the Universal Postal Union.

Congress took decisions on well over 1,000 formal proposals, many of which will bring further improvements to the international mail service.

Can my hon. Friend tell us whether any decisions were taken on technical co-operation?

Yes, Sir. Steps were taken to secure for postal projects a fairer share of multilateral aid resources; bilateral aid in the form of training will be increased and the work of the U.P.U.'s Consultative Council for Postal Studies will be intensified.

asked the Attorney-General what was the cost to public funds of the trial of the nine men accused under the Public Order Act, 1936, at Swansea during May to June, 1969.

The cost to public funds of the prosecution was, in round figures, £23,000 and of the defence £61,500.

Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, in a situation in which we are trying to attract industrialists to Wales, such figures and the situation they portray are doing Wales an extremely bad disservice in driving away, through the activities of nationalist extremists, the very people we wish to attract?

It is certainly in the interests of Wales that there should be unequivocal support for law and order and that is the best contribution that can be made to the interests of Wales at the present time. This prosecution was brought in respect of serious charges and it was right in the public interest that they should be brought.

asked the Attorney-General if he will take steps to expedite the disposal of the recent accumulation of criminal and civil cases awaiting trial.

A number of steps are already being taken to deal with this serious problem. The Government have announced their acceptance in principle of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Assizes and Quarter Sessions, including the Commission's proposals for the action needed in advance of legislation. Under the Administration of Justice Bill, now before Parliament, it will be possible to make better use of the judges' time by reducing the number of places at which assizes are held. A review of court accommodation throughout the country has already been put in hand with a view in particular to the provision of new courts at those places where they are urgently required.

Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the delay in cases being brought to trial is so serious as to constitute in many cases the denial of the justice which British citizens normally expect? Will he consider appointing more judges as an emergency measure and also streamlining court procedures, particularly with regard to personal injury cases, which occupy about three-quarters of the civil list?

The delays in bringing cases to trial are serious. We are seeking to tackle the matter by taking early steps to implement the Beeching Report. The main difficulty is in regard to accommodation and in respect of that also the action I have mentioned has been taken. There have been a number of commissions and committees dealing with recommendations for expediting proceedings and simplifying procedures, but it is a complex matter.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an up-to-date figure of the number of cases awaiting trial in the High Court compared with a year ago?

I do not think that I can give that figure without notice, but the situation has been aggravated by the increase in the number of writs issued last year in the Queen's Bench Division, from 77,000 in 1968 to 96,000 in 1969.' The number of criminal appeals lodged increased from 8,800 in 1968 to 9,700 in 1969. This is the nature of the problem we are meeting.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the vast majority of criminal cases tried on indictment are tried at quarter sessions, which are well up to date in their work and where there is no delay?

That is true by and large but there are delays there now, I am afraid.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, in the North-West, the accumulation in civil cases has been growing alarmingly as a result of the fact that most of the time of judges is taken up in dealing with crime while they are on assize there? Would he consider the appointment of a permanent civil court in the North-West as a matter of urgency?

This is one of the suggestions now being considered.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what changes he now proposes to make in the pension arrangements of the Civil Service to accommodate the Government's proposals for national superannuation following discussions with the staff associations.

Discussions with staff associations will cover many aspects of Civil Service superannuation. It is much too soon to expect them to have reached conclusions.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that that makes things very difficult for hon. Members who have to consider a Bill dealing with this matter today? Can he not at least give a firm and clear assurance that there is no question of going back on the civil servants' non-contributory pension to make room for a contributory national insurance pension?

We have gone over these matters in the House and there will be further opportunity later today. But I repeat to the right hon. Gentleman what has already been said to him a number of times—that, in our judgment, when one combines the new State pension scheme with the occupational benefit which civil servants at present enjoy, they will, over all, be better off than previously.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will withdraw facilities from the Civil Service Medical Aid Association.

No, Sir.

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for that wholly satisfactory answer, may I ask whether it carries the implication that he totally rejects the doctrine of the Secretary of State for Social Services that such associations involve queue-jumping and are an unhappy element in the National Health Service?

I must disappoint the right hon. Gentleman there. He can infer no such thing from my reply. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services went out of his way to make it clear that he was neither seeking to encourage nor to discourage these schemes. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] He was seeking to make it plain that private insurance schemes offer no solution to the financial problems of providing a decent National Health Service for all our people.

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his answer in view of his latest remark? Should not only this plan but B.U.P.A. and other plans in other Ministries be revised?

I had better make it plain to the House that the scheme which has been referred to was introduced for civil servants in 1929 and therefore long antedated the National Health Service. The amount of encouragement or assistance which is given to the scheme by the Government is really minimal.

I am glad to see that the Secretary of State for the Social Services has joined us. May we take it that the determination of the Government not to interfere with this valuable scheme for civil servants is a flea in the ear for the right hon. Gentleman?

It is, again, no such thing, but I will leave it to my right hon. Friend himself to deal with this and other points later today.